Anderson - is he really the guy ?

[monte]

When you return the conference’s leading scorer and the co-defensive player of the year, you’re starting off with a hell of a lot of talent that other BE coaches could only wish for.

So stop downplaying Julian and Posh. 

if you can’t win with them, you can’t win at all.




 

You are overrating them both at this point. They are very good but not great players. Neither is NBA starter material. Posh probably wouldn’t even get a look at the NBA right now. You can’t win with just two very good players. 

You can win with 2 very good ballplayers as long as the surrounding cast is strong. They don't need to be NBA level strong, they need to be college level strong. Even the top 2 players don't need to be nigh level NBA type players.  However we still lack so many components that most very good teams have;
A 6'9" +/- banger
A pure shooter 
A low post scoring threat
A shot blocker
A secondary ball handler
Etc

This team was poorly assembled. CMA had to scramble because of the roster turnover, so he grabbed who he could. Individually all of the kids can contribute something , but it seems that we just lack some of the components needed to be an upper echelon Big East team. 
 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

When you return the conference’s leading scorer and the co-defensive player of the year, you’re starting off with a hell of a lot of talent that other BE coaches could only wish for.

So stop downplaying Julian and Posh. 

if you can’t win with them, you can’t win at all.






 

You are overrating them both at this point. They are very good but not great players. Neither is NBA starter material. Posh probably wouldn’t even get a look at the NBA right now. You can’t win with just two very good players. 

You can win with 2 very good ballplayers as long as the surrounding cast is strong. They don't need to be NBA level strong, they need to be college level strong. Even the top 2 players don't need to be nigh level NBA type players.  However we still lack so many components that most very good teams have;
A 6'9" +/- banger
A pure shooter 
A low post scoring threat
A shot blocker
A secondary ball handler
Etc

This team was poorly assembled. CMA had to scramble because of the roster turnover, so he grabbed who he could. Individually all of the kids can contribute something , but it seems that we just lack some of the components needed to be an upper echelon Big East team. 


 

I agree, which is why I said you can’t win with JUST two very good players. It’s also why I give MA some slack. With the crazy transfer rules, it hasn’t been a normal recruiting environment. 

 

[monte]

When you return the conference’s leading scorer and the co-defensive player of the year, you’re starting off with a hell of a lot of talent that other BE coaches could only wish for.

So stop downplaying Julian and Posh. 

if you can’t win with them, you can’t win at all.







 

You are overrating them both at this point. They are very good but not great players. Neither is NBA starter material. Posh probably wouldn’t even get a look at the NBA right now. You can’t win with just two very good players. 

You can win with 2 very good ballplayers as long as the surrounding cast is strong. They don't need to be NBA level strong, they need to be college level strong. Even the top 2 players don't need to be nigh level NBA type players.  However we still lack so many components that most very good teams have;
A 6'9" +/- banger
A pure shooter 
A low post scoring threat
A shot blocker
A secondary ball handler
Etc

This team was poorly assembled. CMA had to scramble because of the roster turnover, so he grabbed who he could. Individually all of the kids can contribute something , but it seems that we just lack some of the components needed to be an upper echelon Big East team. 



 

I agree, which is why I said you can’t win with JUST two very good players. It’s also why I give MA some slack. With the crazy transfer rules, it hasn’t been a normal recruiting environment. 

Fair enough. First time around he gets cut some slack, even if many other coaches adjusted immediately and have proven to be successful at the transfer game. This off season it's imperative that he bring in some impact transfers. Especially with Champ gone. No excuses. 

 

[beast of the east]

When you return the conference’s leading scorer and the co-defensive player of the year, you’re starting off with a hell of a lot of talent that other BE coaches could only wish for.

So stop downplaying Julian and Posh. 

if you can’t win with them, you can’t win at all.








 

You are overrating them both at this point. They are very good but not great players. Neither is NBA starter material. Posh probably wouldn’t even get a look at the NBA right now. You can’t win with just two very good players. 

You can win with 2 very good ballplayers as long as the surrounding cast is strong. They don't need to be NBA level strong, they need to be college level strong. Even the top 2 players don't need to be nigh level NBA type players.  However we still lack so many components that most very good teams have;
A 6'9" +/- banger
A pure shooter 
A low post scoring threat
A shot blocker
A secondary ball handler
Etc

This team was poorly assembled. CMA had to scramble because of the roster turnover, so he grabbed who he could. Individually all of the kids can contribute something , but it seems that we just lack some of the components needed to be an upper echelon Big East team. 




 

I agree, which is why I said you can’t win with JUST two very good players. It’s also why I give MA some slack. With the crazy transfer rules, it hasn’t been a normal recruiting environment. 

Fair enough. First time around he gets cut some slack, even if many other coaches adjusted immediately and have proven to be successful at the transfer game. This off season it's imperative that he bring in some impact transfers. Especially with Champ gone. No excuses. 

As we all are, I'm concerned because to nab a top flight transfer, your staff gets ahead of the competition by having built long standing relationships from their initial recruitment (Matt did this very well), having a silver tongue (we know we don't have a Lavin here), or else your success recruiting is likely to be empirical (success builds upon success, which is a slower path).

Unless I'm wrong, we haven't brought in a top rated hs recruit since Ponds, and before that Sampson and Harkless.  Correct?

 

[NCJohnnie]

Beast of the East wrote:
As we all are, I'm concerned because to nab a top flight transfer, your staff gets ahead of the competition by having built long standing relationships from their initial recruitment (Matt did this very well), having a silver tongue (we know we don't have a Lavin here), or else your success recruiting is likely to be empirical (success builds upon success, which is a slower path).

Unless I'm wrong, we haven't brought in a top rated hs recruit since Ponds, and before that Sampson and Harkless.  Correct?

Lavin actually brought in lots of highly rated recruits. I went back and looked them up using ESPN rankings as they were the easiest to find:
Jordan - #17 (an asterisk here in that despite him being highest ranked he was lightly recruited for other reasons);
Pointer - #25
Sampson - #32
Harkless - #39
Harrison - #64
And Ponds was #37 for Mullin.

This tells me that if you have a top notch recruiter (which Lavin was) you can bring in consistent top 100 talent to SJU as all the negatives CMA has to deal with were pretty much the same for Lavin. This is why best short term move for the school imho is to bring in an assistant coach who is a big time recruiter outside NYC (Van has NY area well covered).  We have a top 100 kid coming in for 2022 (albeit a grade below guys above) but need to bring in at least 2 per year to compete with top of the Big East teams.   

 

[monte]

Beast of the East wrote:
As we all are, I'm concerned because to nab a top flight transfer, your staff gets ahead of the competition by having built long standing relationships from their initial recruitment (Matt did this very well), having a silver tongue (we know we don't have a Lavin here), or else your success recruiting is likely to be empirical (success builds upon success, which is a slower path).

Unless I'm wrong, we haven't brought in a top rated hs recruit since Ponds, and before that Sampson and Harkless.  Correct?

Lavin actually brought in lots of highly rated recruits. I went back and looked them up using ESPN rankings as they were the easiest to find:
Jordan - #17 (an asterisk here in that despite him being highest ranked he was lightly recruited for other reasons);
Pointer - #25
Sampson - #32
Harkless - #39
Harrison - #64
And Ponds was #37 for Mullin.

This tells me that if you have a top notch recruiter (which Lavin was) you can bring in consistent top 100 talent to SJU as all the negatives CMA has to deal with were pretty much the same for Lavin. This is why best short term move for the school imho is to bring in an assistant coach who is a big time recruiter outside NYC (Van has NY area well covered).  We have a top 100 kid coming in for 2022 (albeit a grade below guys above) but need to bring in at least 2 per year to compete with top of the Big East teams.   

My sentiments exactly. Lavin and Chris/Matt, ran circles around this staff(so far) in the recruiting department as far as talent level is concerned.  And with the same exact obstacles that are now being used as excuses. 

 

[beast of the east]

Beast of the East wrote:
As we all are, I'm concerned because to nab a top flight transfer, your staff gets ahead of the competition by having built long standing relationships from their initial recruitment (Matt did this very well), having a silver tongue (we know we don't have a Lavin here), or else your success recruiting is likely to be empirical (success builds upon success, which is a slower path).

Unless I'm wrong, we haven't brought in a top rated hs recruit since Ponds, and before that Sampson and Harkless.  Correct?

Lavin actually brought in lots of highly rated recruits. I went back and looked them up using ESPN rankings as they were the easiest to find:
Jordan - #17 (an asterisk here in that despite him being highest ranked he was lightly recruited for other reasons);
Pointer - #25
Sampson - #32
Harkless - #39
Harrison - #64
And Ponds was #37 for Mullin.

This tells me that if you have a top notch recruiter (which Lavin was) you can bring in consistent top 100 talent to SJU as all the negatives CMA has to deal with were pretty much the same for Lavin. This is why best short term move for the school imho is to bring in an assistant coach who is a big time recruiter outside NYC (Van has NY area well covered).  We have a top 100 kid coming in for 2022 (albeit a grade below guys above) but need to bring in at least 2 per year to compete with top of the Big East teams.   

I didn't remember pointer being so high, forgot about Jordan, and I would have thought Harrison was around 100.   Lavin hardly brought in anything the last 2 maybe 3 seasons of recruiting which is why he is gone.   Ponds was Mullins only top recruit.    So fair to say, except for a smallish guard and one tainted guard, we haven't recruited any top players out of hs in almost 10 years 

 

[Amaseinyourface]

Beast of the East wrote:
As we all are, I'm concerned because to nab a top flight transfer, your staff gets ahead of the competition by having built long standing relationships from their initial recruitment (Matt did this very well), having a silver tongue (we know we don't have a Lavin here), or else your success recruiting is likely to be empirical (success builds upon success, which is a slower path).

Unless I'm wrong, we haven't brought in a top rated hs recruit since Ponds, and before that Sampson and Harkless.  Correct?

Lavin actually brought in lots of highly rated recruits. I went back and looked them up using ESPN rankings as they were the easiest to find:
Jordan - #17 (an asterisk here in that despite him being highest ranked he was lightly recruited for other reasons);
Pointer - #25
Sampson - #32
Harkless - #39
Harrison - #64
And Ponds was #37 for Mullin.

This tells me that if you have a top notch recruiter (which Lavin was) you can bring in consistent top 100 talent to SJU as all the negatives CMA has to deal with were pretty much the same for Lavin. This is why best short term move for the school imho is to bring in an assistant coach who is a big time recruiter outside NYC (Van has NY area well covered).  We have a top 100 kid coming in for 2022 (albeit a grade below guys above) but need to bring in at least 2 per year to compete with top of the Big East teams.   

My sentiments exactly. Lavin and Chris/Matt, ran circles around this staff(so far) in the recruiting department as far as talent level is concerned.  And with the same exact obstacles that are now being used as excuses. 

They did get better talent on paper in terms of rankings no doubt. Is there a chance that high end talent played a part in their inability to recruit a full roster?

If they could have filled out a roster like CMA has been able to do they would have raised their ceiling exponentially IMO. Sometimes having a guy like Sampson or Ponds makes it tough to recruit behind them. Obviously that’s a risk worth taking.

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

 

My sentiments exactly. Lavin and Chris/Matt, ran circles around this staff(so far) in the recruiting department as far as talent level is concerned.  And with the same exact obstacles that are now being used as excuses. 

Ran circles?? Other than Ponds, what top player did Mullin/Matt bring in that was better than Anderson's recruits?

 

[paultzman]

Beast of the East wrote:
As we all are, I'm concerned because to nab a top flight transfer, your staff gets ahead of the competition by having built long standing relationships from their initial recruitment (Matt did this very well), having a silver tongue (we know we don't have a Lavin here), or else your success recruiting is likely to be empirical (success builds upon success, which is a slower path).

Unless I'm wrong, we haven't brought in a top rated hs recruit since Ponds, and before that Sampson and Harkless.  Correct?

Lavin actually brought in lots of highly rated recruits. I went back and looked them up using ESPN rankings as they were the easiest to find:
Jordan - #17 (an asterisk here in that despite him being highest ranked he was lightly recruited for other reasons);
Pointer - #25
Sampson - #32
Harkless - #39
Harrison - #64
And Ponds was #37 for Mullin.

This tells me that if you have a top notch recruiter (which Lavin was) you can bring in consistent top 100 talent to SJU as all the negatives CMA has to deal with were pretty much the same for Lavin. This is why best short term move for the school imho is to bring in an assistant coach who is a big time recruiter outside NYC (Van has NY area well covered).  We have a top 100 kid coming in for 2022 (albeit a grade below guys above) but need to bring in at least 2 per year to compete with top of the Big East teams.   

I didn't remember pointer being so high, forgot about Jordan, and I would have thought Harrison was around 100.   Lavin hardly brought in anything the last 2 maybe 3 seasons of recruiting which is why he is gone.   Ponds was Mullins only top recruit.    So fair to say, except for a smallish guard and one tainted guard, we haven't recruited any top players out of hs in almost 10 years 

Pointer
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/102700/dom-pointer

 

[room112]

I don't have any knowledge of anything, but I can't help but allow this thought to creep into my head. I can envision a scenario for next year where not only does Champagnie leave to the NBA, but Posh transfers. It would literally be devastating.

 

[NCJohnnie]

Beast of the East wrote:
I didn't remember pointer being so high, forgot about Jordan, and I would have thought Harrison was around 100.   Lavin hardly brought in anything the last 2 maybe 3 seasons of recruiting which is why he is gone.   Ponds was Mullins only top recruit.    So fair to say, except for a smallish guard and one tainted guard, we haven't recruited any top players out of hs in almost 10 years.
  
Yes, but none of that changes my point that Lavin was able to attract top recruits with all the same disadvantages despite taking over a program that had been a train wreck for ten years. He didn't continue it for reasons that have been rehashed many times (although even in his last year the other Sampson kid he signed and who backed out after Lavin firing was a top 100 kid) and Mullin's only recruiter specialized in transfers so not a lot of top high school prospects there. But it clearly can be done with a top national recruiter on staff. And imho we don't need top 40 recruits to compete in top half of the Big East, just a couple of kids each year ranked between 50-100 who CMA can coach up.   

 

[beast of the east]

Beast of the East wrote:
I didn't remember pointer being so high, forgot about Jordan, and I would have thought Harrison was around 100.   Lavin hardly brought in anything the last 2 maybe 3 seasons of recruiting which is why he is gone.   Ponds was Mullins only top recruit.    So fair to say, except for a smallish guard and one tainted guard, we haven't recruited any top players out of hs in almost 10 years.
  
Yes, but none of that changes my point that Lavin was able to attract top recruits with all the same disadvantages despite taking over a program that had been a train wreck for ten years. He didn't continue it for reasons that have been rehashed many times (although even in his last year the other Sampson kid he signed and who backed out after Lavin firing was a top 100 kid) and Mullin's only recruiter specialized in transfers so not a lot of top high school prospects there. But it clearly can be done with a top national recruiter on staff. And imho we don't need top 40 recruits to compete in top half of the Big East, just a couple of kids each year ranked between 50-100 who CMA can coach up.   

All good points.   We just have to recruit better here - hs and transfers - period.

 

[monte]

Beast of the East wrote:
As we all are, I'm concerned because to nab a top flight transfer, your staff gets ahead of the competition by having built long standing relationships from their initial recruitment (Matt did this very well), having a silver tongue (we know we don't have a Lavin here), or else your success recruiting is likely to be empirical (success builds upon success, which is a slower path).

Unless I'm wrong, we haven't brought in a top rated hs recruit since Ponds, and before that Sampson and Harkless.  Correct?

Lavin actually brought in lots of highly rated recruits. I went back and looked them up using ESPN rankings as they were the easiest to find:
Jordan - #17 (an asterisk here in that despite him being highest ranked he was lightly recruited for other reasons);
Pointer - #25
Sampson - #32
Harkless - #39
Harrison - #64
And Ponds was #37 for Mullin.

This tells me that if you have a top notch recruiter (which Lavin was) you can bring in consistent top 100 talent to SJU as all the negatives CMA has to deal with were pretty much the same for Lavin. This is why best short term move for the school imho is to bring in an assistant coach who is a big time recruiter outside NYC (Van has NY area well covered).  We have a top 100 kid coming in for 2022 (albeit a grade below guys above) but need to bring in at least 2 per year to compete with top of the Big East teams.   

My sentiments exactly. Lavin and Chris/Matt, ran circles around this staff(so far) in the recruiting department as far as talent level is concerned.  And with the same exact obstacles that are now being used as excuses. 

They did get better talent on paper in terms of rankings no doubt. Is there a chance that high end talent played a part in their inability to recruit a full roster?

If they could have filled out a roster like CMA has been able to do they would have raised their ceiling exponentially IMO. Sometimes having a guy like Sampson or Ponds makes it tough to recruit behind them. Obviously that’s a risk worth taking.

It's possible Amase, striking that balance is key for a coach. That's what they get paid to do. Not sure what the solution is, but ultimately coaches succeed or fail based on who they bring in (and retain), how well they get them to play as a unit and how hard they play. Three years in, we know CMA gets his kids to play hard, but the jury is still out on the first two things. I hope and expect that  as the talent level gets better, we'll see a more cohesive unit. 

 

[fuchsia]

"Playing solitaire 'til dawn with a deck of 51"

With exactly one currently active player who handles the ball and sees the floor with a high BB IQ, I suggest we don't know what we have.  We need Pinzon healthy now and I am already concerned that his absence has negative consequences for what he could grow in to for next year.

 

[RedStormNC]

Wonder how clean Lavin's staff was on those early and big signings..

 

[NCJohnnie]

RedstormNC wrote:

Wonder how clean Lavin's staff was on those early and big signings..

I don't recall there ever being any speculation or noise about anything illegal with Lavin's signings other than the kid with the fake transcripts issue. He did take some chances with highly rated recruits who had non-basketball issues, at least one of whom, Norvel Pelle, failed to qualify. I suspect very few in college basketball recruiting are spotless, but I think Lav was simply a very good recruiter (if not a great x's and o's coach).   

 

[paultzman]

RedstormNC wrote:

Wonder how clean Lavin's staff was on those early and big signings..

I don't recall there ever being any speculation or noise about anything illegal with Lavin's signings other than the kid with the fake transcripts issue. He did take some chances with highly rated recruits who had non-basketball issues, at least one of whom, Norvel Pelle, failed to qualify. I suspect very few in college basketball recruiting are spotless, but I think Lav was simply a very good recruiter (if not a great x's and o's coach).   

You don’t quickly put a class together like the Pointer, JaKarr group w/o help and creativity imo.

 

[NCJohnnie]

Paultzman wrote:

You don’t quickly put a class together like the Pointer, JaKarr group w/o help and creativity imo.

Could be Paultzman, you're certainly way more in the know on things like this than I am. I just never heard any noise about those signings, I guess fans and the local media were too busy being overjoyed at Lav's early success. 

 

[paultzman]

Paultzman wrote:

You don’t quickly put a class together like the Pointer, JaKarr group w/o help and creativity imo.

Could be Paultzman, you're certainly way more in the know on things like this than I am. I just never heard any noise about those signings, I guess fans and the local media were too busy being overjoyed at Lav's early success. 

Just my sense on the way things usually work in hoops world