2014 Princeton Review / St. John's
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Pleasedontbanmeagain
Member
So I'm interested in attending Harvard. Can I get in now? The stats show that poverty and low academic performance go together. So let's not pretend that these are rockstar academic students. If I understand this correctly SJU goes by quotas and not standards. That will kill a school's academic reputation...point blank.
beast of the east
Active member
My take on this Joe is the following:
1) St. John's receives $5,500 per school year for each eligible student enrolled. Do the math - 15,000 undergraduate students = 6,000 Pell eligible x $5,500, and St. John's receives a whopping $33 million from the federal government. Now you might say, how does St. John's make up the gap between $5,500 and full tuition. You sock these Pell students with low interest federally subsidized student loans for say another $15,000 per year. Then you give the student a $10,000 per year scholarship, which is financed largely by large donor contributions. At $21,000 or so per year coming directly from the government in the form of loans and Pell grants, it's a very profitable endeavor for the school. The more kids the better.
It's not as difficult a question to answer as you might think Joe, the Vincentian mission is to educate the masses (not the elite) and it puts a special focus on the disadvantaged. Being prestigious is nice, but it's not a building block of the University. SJU never claimed to be Georgetown, and it doesn't try to be. They have a different mission and different goals.
The school's mission statement specially says: "St. John’s is a Vincentian university, inspired by St. Vincent de Paul’s compassion and zeal for service. We strive to provide excellent education for all people, especially those lacking economic, physical, or social advantages."
A lot of people would argue that's what makes SJU different.
beast of the east
Active member
It's virtuous, but if you Google the Vincentian's order website, you will find the definition of what the Vincentian mission in more specific religious terms. From the Vincentian congregation website:
Mission
Motto :-
The Congregation has taken as its motto,
'He has sent me to proclaim the Good News to the poor'
(Lk.4:18), which inspired St. Vincent de Paul.
Purpose :-
The specific and pre-eminent purpose of the Congregation is the evangelisation of the poor, especially the more abandoned. It is realised in the popular mission, retreats, missionary work among the non-Christians, and through charitable, social and educational apostolate.
It's a worthy discussion, one in which I love to hear Paul's educated insights. St. John's has muted the true Vincentian mission, to evangelize the poor through charity, social and education. By muting their religious mission, they've broadened their "market" of interested students, and broadened the reach of contributors to the point that some very large SJU benefactors, notably Jerome Belson, are not even Christian.
This is all fine, but to a large extent, this isn't the full Vincentian mission once you remove evangelization from the equation.
Pleasedontbanmeagain
Member
All very interesting answers. Thank you guys for honest answers without any sting in them, because I'm really not trying to be controversial or ruffle feathers...the whole thing just didn't make much sense to me so I appreciate the responses. Seeing as they do in fact make a killing due to this, it's very unfortunate because money is all that matters these days, standards be damned. As for Desco saying we are not for the "elite"...what do you define as "elite"? Do you not want an "elite" brain to cure cancer as an SJU alumni? Is a middle class white kid from the suburbs raised with some luxury but nothing overboard and good grades "elite"? If we are going to have the attitude that successful = bad then I'm scared to see what the school will become. Just as we all witnessed with the FDNY, when you take standards away and replace them with quotas, the job will not be performed at the high level necessary to be successful. If our mission truly is to cater and specifically target low income, lower performing students, then it's high time we change that. Refusing to do that will prevent school pride (intellectually), prestige, and alumni from being proud (which also ties into donations).
beast of the east
Active member
I don't think that Desco's point is that we abandon all standards, but that SJU has never desired to be a highly selective academic institution. It's funny, at the two Villanova commencements I've attended, one consistent thread among parents who are also alumni is that "today I couldn't get into this school". Namely, Villanova has elevated its academic standards to transform from a largely commuter school for local Catholic kids, to a nationally renowned school of academic excellence. I don't think that St. John's has to become this, but certainly they are not consistently attracting their share of the top 20% of the local Catholic high school graduates. Why not? Well, top students don't want to attend mediocre (or worse) schools.
No, you're right, I obviously want SJU alumni to be unbelievably successful. But I think there's a difference between the quality of the education and the level of prestige. St Johns could certainly do a better job of recruiting the top 25% as Beast of the East says. But to some extent they're in a different market than Notre Dame, for example.
For a long time I owned a Jeep Cherokee, and it was a great car. But Jeep aka Chrysler isn't competing in the luxury market. They're not trying to compete with the BMW X5 or the Porsche suv; and I think that's a pretty apt analogy to higher education.
Notre Dame only recruits the top 10%, and they provide a great education to those students; and St Johns should strive to be equally successful and be a leader in their own market. Somebody has to educate the 30-80 percentile of students, and SJU should aim to be a leader in that area. To the analogy further I'd say soemone has to be a leader in the $60k suv market, and somebody needs to be the leader in the $30k market; but it doesn't necessarily make one better or worse than the other. Don't try to be something you're not; take what you're good at and become excellent in that area. So I wouldn't define the school's success or not by how many students they get from that higher quartile.
Rankings really aren't the end all be all, and that's why my point is just that prestige and elite status aren't the same thing as the quality of education, just like I don't know that my Cherokee is any 'worse' of a car than an X5.
Sorry if the analogy was a little ridiculous btw, I just thought it helped make my point.
Pleasedontbanmeagain
Member
It wasn't a bad analogy with the car class, but I just think education is one of those things you can't strive for mediocrity in. If it's a car, then fine. Some just want something with 4 wheels and a motor to get them from point A to point B. Others want a reliable but flashy car in the middle. Others want that wow factor so they get a Maserati for $130k. Totally understandable. But with education it's never good to strive to be mediocre IMO. I'm not saying let's become Harvard, but I think for our niche we need to do better. If all we did was replace quotas with strict standards, I guarantee you there would be improvements over time. When students know they go to a good school they have pride and they even dress nicer for class sometimes. It's all about the environment you set. At Marist there was just that professional feel...a sense that you were attending a respected school that will impress future employers. Students took it seriously. It definitely reflected. Students loved the school, showed lots of support, and donations flew in (including a $75 million gift along with a mansion). I just don't get that sense at SJU when being around the undergrads. Grad school is a different story and it's quite competitive, but for undergrad it seems more like the consumers who want a car simply to get them from point A to point B (going back to the analogy).
STJ11Redmen
Active member
The problem is the tuition is so high that middle class white people like myself will choose a state school over St. John's 9 times out of 10. I had a Mid 90's GPA in high school and over 630 on all parts of the SAT and I'm a double legacy and only got a 12k scholarship which left me taking out over 30k in loans per year. I was a fool to go to St. John's at that price. They've priced out the good middle class student and until they make the academics such that its worth that much more than a state school they will be mediocre.
beast of the east
Active member
I'm curious. Wouldn't you have been eligible for close to a full scholarship at CW Post? I agree that for a good (non pharmacy) student to come out of SJU with $120,000 in student loans is crazy.
STJ11Redmen
Active member
My parents told me to go wherever I wanted and thankfully took the brunt of the debt. In the end it worked out because SJU has a really good accounting program and I got a job through St. John's at a firm near my house making well more than a 22 year old working outside of the city should. That would not have happened if I went to a school like CW Post. The point is that there are so many kids who get great grades but their parents make too much to get government aid but not enough to afford pay 30 grand a year in cash. Unless we beef up our rankings those kids will either go to Albany or Binghamton, take more money from a lesser school like Post, or bite the financial bullet and go to a better school like Syracuse, Fordham, Villanova, etc.. If SJU stays on the road they are going on then by the time I have kids that are old enough to go to St. John's the school will be 80% minority.
Pleasedontbanmeagain
Member
And at 80% minorities at SJU we will be considered "very diverse" while an 80% white school will be considered "white washed", "racist", and "not nearly diverse enough". Go figure :silly: Kind of like how the NBA is "very diverse" with 90% blacks as well as the NFL at about 80% black. The word diversity only means one thing these days, and I think we all know deep down.
beast of the east
Active member
It's good to see that you've found that a professional degree (accounting, pharmacy, p.a., etc) from St. John's is well regarded from local businesses. In that regard, for you $120,000 in loans is offset by the entry level salary you've attained. On the other hand, you're also very fortunate to have parents who are footing the bill. Much has been written recently about the value of professional degrees that are in demand.
At all the schools we are visiting, most tout the very high percentage of recent graduates that are either employed or in graduate school. Most are in the high 90's. However, when I posed this question more specifically at Boston College, asking them to separate employed in full time jobs from those in graduate school, internships, or service commitments (Teach for America, etc.), the number falls to about 60%. It's an indicator of the true state of the economy, when only 60% of a recent (2012)graduating class at a prestigious academic institution like BC can attain FT employment.
In the most recent monthly job figures released, approximately 150,000 new jobs had been created. This number was position by the Obama administration as being encouraging. However, only 25,000 of these jobs were for permanent FT positions. The rest were part time or seasonal work. I wonder if St. John's publishes employment statistics for recent graduates. It would be revealing to see how well recent grads are doing in the jobs market, especially for those not attaining professional degrees that are in demand.
STJ11Redmen
Active member
I'm not sure how accurate those stats really are. I would bet that most schools ask who they want to ask in order to get their desired percentage. I certainly have never been surveyed about what I've done post-graduation.
Pleasedontbanmeagain
Member
Fun fact speaking of graduate school. Marist boasted about how many of its students went on to graduate school. A friend of mine went to Dowling after Marist and obviously I'm in my 3rd year of my MS at SJU (66 credits). Marist sent out a magazine showcasing where its students went on to grad school but it left out schools like Dowling, Cortland, etc. yet included St. John's. So apparently Marist thinks it's more prestigious...at least that's what I take from it.
beast of the east
Active member
St. John's has an infrastructure that quite frankly sucks. Better schools all survey and track their students to find out where they are and what they are doing. I was talk at BC that they have published a 20 page document filled with statistical data as to where recent graduates are. Just because SJU sucks in this regard, don't pre-suppose that other schools don't do a better job at it.
beast of the east
Active member
Furthermore, some schools are just so way ahead of the curve as compared to St. John's. Forget for a moment about the academic qualifications of students. Northeastern for example, has a mandatory internship program. You don't pay tuition while doing internships, and 50% of students have been offered jobs as a result of internships. Northeastern has established relationships with hundreds of companies for this purpose both in and out of Boston, in and out of the United States. Their internship program is ranked #1 in the United States and a compelling reason to attend that school. So, it goes way beyond the caliber of student that the school attracts, and the caliber of faculty. Spending money on talented professional administrators also ups the academic profile of the school. Alumni are also important, as Northeastern has an endowment of more than $1 billion, compared to SJU's $400 million.
jerseyshorejohnny
Well-known member
The Princeton Review gave St. John's a Quality of Life rating of 71.
According to the book, this rating on a scale of 60-99, is a measure of how happy students are with their campus experience outside the classroom.
To compile this rating Princeton Review weighed several factors including the students' assessments of:
Their overall happiness
The beauty, safety and location of the campus
Comfort of Dorms
Quality of food
Ease of getting around campus and dealing with administartors
Friendlines of fellow students and
The interaction of different student types on campus and within the greater community.
As an FYI here are the Quality of Life Ratings of some other schools (among the 378 colleges they cite as among the best in the country):
Stony Brook 72
Albany 68
Fordham 85
NYU 87
Rutgers 70
G'Town 79
ND 71
BC 90
Marist 79
Seton Hall 70
Buffalo 70
Syracuse 72
LeMoyne 70
Columbia 94
DePaul 91
Northeastern 95
Sacred Heart 72
St. Louis 67
Villanova 95
Marquette 75
Fairfield 84
Duke 73
Hunter 73
CCNY 73
Queens 79
Brooklyn College 70
Baruch 68
Boston U. 95
Providence 81
Manhattanville 74
Take it for what it's worth.
According to the book, this rating on a scale of 60-99, is a measure of how happy students are with their campus experience outside the classroom.
To compile this rating Princeton Review weighed several factors including the students' assessments of:
Their overall happiness
The beauty, safety and location of the campus
Comfort of Dorms
Quality of food
Ease of getting around campus and dealing with administartors
Friendlines of fellow students and
The interaction of different student types on campus and within the greater community.
As an FYI here are the Quality of Life Ratings of some other schools (among the 378 colleges they cite as among the best in the country):
Stony Brook 72
Albany 68
Fordham 85
NYU 87
Rutgers 70
G'Town 79
ND 71
BC 90
Marist 79
Seton Hall 70
Buffalo 70
Syracuse 72
LeMoyne 70
Columbia 94
DePaul 91
Northeastern 95
Sacred Heart 72
St. Louis 67
Villanova 95
Marquette 75
Fairfield 84
Duke 73
Hunter 73
CCNY 73
Queens 79
Brooklyn College 70
Baruch 68
Boston U. 95
Providence 81
Manhattanville 74
Take it for what it's worth.
beast of the east
Active member
JSJ,
Thanks for this info. My wife was aware of these scores, but I wasn't. My son will be applying to at least 7 of the schools on the above list, and for me it was helpful.
It would be fun for us from various generations to rate our own SJU experience in each of those categories. I'll take a shot (rated 0-10):
Their overall happiness: 10. even with an administration that wasn't always helpful, I loved being at SJU each and every day (excluding exam days)
The beauty, safety and location of the campus: 9. (ok it wasn't the most beautiful campus, but I always felt extremely safe, even at 3 in the morning, which happened fairly frequently. location was perfect for me, about 10 minutes form my house in queens)
Comfort of Dorms: N/A. (We always bitched that Cahill wanted no part of dorms)
Quality of food: 1. Barely edible. Marillac frozen pizzas, hamburgers like hockey pucks, oven baked fries.
Ease of getting around campus and dealing with administrators: 10 for getting around campus, 5 for dealing with administrators (although there were a few in my major that looking back i'd give a 10 to.)
Friendliness of fellow students: 10 (I went to SJU with some of the best people on earth, and many are friends to this day. Many of you have become friends also)
The interaction of different student types on campus and within the greater community: 2. (Different student types, which I assume means ethnic, racial. Asian students interacted mostly with Asian, African Americans with African Americans. We had nearly zero interaction with the community at large unless they meant Gantry's, Poor Richard's pub, Sam's, Bob's Deli, or Ed's pizzeria)