What should the rotation be?

[fuchsia]

I am going to try to get the thread back on track as to what the rotation should be.

I am fine with starting lineup with either Wusu or Smith starting. Along with Posh, Champs, Mathis and Soriano that is probably our strongest six. After that I think it will be situational basketball and going with the hot hand. Hopefully Pinzon comes back soon as he adds another ball handler which we desperately need,

It feels like we are dealing with parts from two separate jigsaw puzzles.  We have a collection of off guards (2s) that have different strengths in their offensive and defensive games and situational basketball defense will always try to put whoever is in, in the position to do what they are worst at. 
The revelation from yesterday's game was that Nyiwe has high end defensive athleticism and shot-blocking and that if you are playing pressure defense, he is better than Soriano at making a rushed shot or drive not work.  If you are mounting a comeback and need to score in bunches, Nyiwe is a no go with his undeveloped offense.  Pinzon is hurt, Wusu's ball-handling becomes a liability.  

If we don't control the context of the game, tempo and spacing and match-ups, our pieces from two separate puzzles may be a big problem.

 

[Amaseinyourface]

You’re right on target Monte.  
I’ve come to the conclusion that last year’s team was more talented.  I want to see if CMA can mold these players into a team.

How so?  In the non-conference last year, they only beat St. Peter's by 1 point, only beat a very bad Boston College team that only won 4 games the entire year by 4 points, and only beat Rider by 3 points.  And most of the rotation players had a full year in CMA's system.  

Only person I think that was more talented than the person they got replaced with in the rotation is Moore.  His defense was bad, but offensively he fit in really well when he wasn't taking wild 3 pointers for no reason, however we now know his attitude was not worth it.  As far as the guards Mathis, Smith, and Coburn are upgrades over all the guards that departed in Cole, Dunn, and Williams.  All of these guys are putting up medicore stats on bad mid-major teams.  Williams last game he put up 6 points against 1-5 Jacksonville State in a loss, in 25 minutes.  Rasheem Dunn just put up 4 points in 28 minutes against Davidson in a loss, and Vince Cole just put up 4 points in 29 minutes (0-7 from 3) in a loss against Toledo.  Hard to look at that and say these guys were more talented.

It not just talent level, it's also specific skill sets of the players, and chemistry. What our ex players do after they leave here means nothing. I judge them on what they did here. Having said that, I'll wait to decide which team is more talented since we have yet to see Coburn and a number of the other players play against higher level comp more(other then Indy). 

Knight specifically said talent.  That's what I'm referring to.  It's true you can be a better team if the chemistry and pieces fit with less talent, I agree with that 100%.  I'd actually rather have better chemistry than talent.

But, strictly based on talent as Knight mentioned, I don't see how anyone can put together a valid argument for last year's guards being better than this years.  Like I said, you can argue in Moore's favor, he's putting up good numbers at a mid-major and he put up good numbers here, so far he's outperforming Soriano at the mid-major level and the high major level.  If wasn't for his attitude he would have ended up at another high major, he had the interest.

Now back to the guards, Smith and Coburn both put up better numbers on a good mid-major teams than all those guys are putting up on a bad mid-major teams.  If you put those guys on those bad mid-major teams, where they are the #1 guy, they probably average close to 20 PPG.  There's a reason why all those guys that left here ended up at mid-major schools, coaches know how to evaluate talent, there's plenty of college basketball footage out on all of them and most of their interest came from mid-major coaches.  Nobody goes to a bad mid-major team if they can to a high major and be a significant contributor.






 

Dunn averaged 15.5 points and 6 rebounds as a sophomore at saint francis. Is he less talented now or is the sample size too small? His stats are worse now than they were at sju. So like him and the rest of the transfers, in and out, their stats so far this year arent going to tell me who’s more talented. We could point to dunn scoring 24 vs nova while at sju. Williams scoring 26 vs gtown. Marcellus 25 vs creighton and having huge second half scoring bursts in big east wins. Moore having 26 & 12 vs gtown and being the most productive scorer off the bench in the BE, and still I’m willing to say that doesn’t mean the guys coming in can’t be better.

I don’t think there is anything any guy has shown at sju this year that proves definitively they are better or more talented than the guys who left. Except for Sorianos size, there’s not much that last years team didn’t have that this years team does. He is what gives me the most hope about our potential ceiling and because of him I still think we can finish much better than last year. The rest of the roster, my GUESS is we’re about even, just not as used to playing with each-other yet.

I'm not going off of stats 4 or 5 years ago, I'm going off stats a year ago that's more accurate to their current talent level.  5 years ago John Wall was one of the best players in the NBA, today his team pays him to stay at home because he isn't that great anymore, so I'm not sure why you would bring up stats 5 years ago to make a point.  

But, whatever we can throw comparing last year's stats and this year's stats out the window.  And we can just go off of what the professionals that get paid to do this year in and year out think. Me and you are fans and don't know how to evaluate talent, D1 coaches however do.  This summer (a few months ago) the guys coming in had significantly more high major interest than the guys going out, minus Greg Williams Jr., who's interest this his dad was putting out was more than likely significantly exaggerated.  Like I said, no player is going to a bad mid-major program to play 12 road games in a row to play on espn+ and espn 3 in mediocre facilities, with few fans watching, if a high major program is offering them a significant role.  The question is will the guys fit and mesh better than last year's team.  You can be more talented and be a worse overall team.

 

Yea I brought up stats from five years ago (to show a direct comparison of players numbers not going up when competition goes down) and you made up hypothetical 20 ppg numbers guys might get..

And can we say for certain the guys who transferred here would have transferred to high major schools if they didn’t transfer to sju? That’s a possibility is it not? You admit Moore is more talented but yet he went to a lower level school. You admit Williams had options but throw in the caveat about his dad possibly making it up? I just think you’re willing to make exceptions for the new guys you’re not willing for the guys who left.

 

[mjmaherjr]

Making Plays vs Amaseinyourface is a must read for the rest of the season

 

[Amaseinyourface]

Making Plays vs Amaseinyourface is a must read for the rest of the season

I just want that guy on my side god damnit! /media/kunena/emoticons/grin.png

 

[monte]

Making Plays vs Amaseinyourface is a must read for the rest of the season

I just want that guy on my side god damnit! /media/kunena/emoticons/grin.png

As long as you don't ever say anything remotely negative about CMA or the players, you'll get him on your side /media/kunena/emoticons/wink.png

 

[MakingPlays]

Making Plays vs Amaseinyourface is a must read for the rest of the season

I just want that guy on my side god damnit! /media/kunena/emoticons/grin.png

As long as you don't ever say anything remotely negative about CMA or the players, you'll get him on your side /media/kunena/emoticons/wink.png

CMA and players are not off limits either.  Despite what you think I'm not some blind fanboy.  I call things like I see them and give my honest opinion.  And you can see in the first post of this thread, If I'm wrong about something, I have no problem admitting it and giving the other person their props for being correct. 

And just for the record CMA has plenty of issues as a coach, never said he didn't.  If you didn't just pick out the stuff you disagree with to argue about, you'd see that.  I criticize him plenty when I feel it's deserved, like every time he put Arnaldo Toro in the game last year, or the lack of preparation against DePaul last year, when they knew it was a must win.   And as I said when I first joined this site, I grew up going to Nolan Richardson's camps and my high school coach modeled his playing style after Nolan's style, so I grew up around 40 minutes of hell, so of course I'm going to always be a fan of it and follow Mike's teams and root for him, that doesn't mean I'm going to think everything he does is perfect and I'm incapable of criticizing him.  If Mike doesn't make the tournament this year, that seats going to get a little warm.

And before you ask, no I'm not upset, I didn't take anything you said personal, and I don't think you have it out for me .  I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from.

 

[MakingPlays]

Making Plays vs Amaseinyourface is a must read for the rest of the season

I just want that guy on my side god damnit! /media/kunena/emoticons/grin.png

That wouldn't be fun at all.

 

[monte]

Making Plays vs Amaseinyourface is a must read for the rest of the season

I just want that guy on my side god damnit! /media/kunena/emoticons/grin.png

As long as you don't ever say anything remotely negative about CMA or the players, you'll get him on your side /media/kunena/emoticons/wink.png

CMA and players are not off limits either.  Despite what you think I'm not some blind fanboy.  I call things like I see them and give my honest opinion.  And you can see in the first post of this thread, If I'm wrong about something, I have no problem admitting it and giving the other person their props for being correct. 

And just for the record CMA has plenty of issues as a coach, never said he didn't.  If you didn't just pick out the stuff you disagree with to argue about, you'd see that.  I criticize him plenty when I feel it's deserved, like every time he put Arnaldo Toro in the game last year, or the lack of preparation against DePaul last year, when they knew it was a must win.   And as I said when I first joined this site, I grew up going to Nolan Richardson's camps and my high school coach modeled his playing style after Nolan's style, so I grew up around 40 minutes of hell, so of course I'm going to always be a fan of it and follow Mike's teams and root for him, that doesn't mean I'm going to think everything he does is perfect and I'm incapable of criticizing him.  If Mike doesn't make the tournament this year, that seats going to get a little warm.

And before you ask, no I'm not upset, I didn't take anything you said personal, and I don't think you have it out for me .  I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from.

At the end of the day, you will root for SJU for as long as CMA is here. Most of us on this board live and die with the program regardless of who the coach is, and have done so for a very long time and hope to do so for a long time. There's a big difference. 

 

[monte]

PS MP, I don't think the seat is going to get hot for Mike, no matter how bad this team does, for many, many years. This administration is going to live and die with this hire, especially after the extension. Oh, and as for 40 minutes of hell, considering how fond of it you are, you must have really enjoyed the last 3 games, which were each 40 minutes of pure hell /media/kunena/emoticons/wink.png I'm giving us a pass on the NJIT OT. 

 

[MakingPlays]

Making Plays vs Amaseinyourface is a must read for the rest of the season

I just want that guy on my side god damnit! /media/kunena/emoticons/grin.png

As long as you don't ever say anything remotely negative about CMA or the players, you'll get him on your side /media/kunena/emoticons/wink.png

CMA and players are not off limits either.  Despite what you think I'm not some blind fanboy.  I call things like I see them and give my honest opinion.  And you can see in the first post of this thread, If I'm wrong about something, I have no problem admitting it and giving the other person their props for being correct. 

And just for the record CMA has plenty of issues as a coach, never said he didn't.  If you didn't just pick out the stuff you disagree with to argue about, you'd see that.  I criticize him plenty when I feel it's deserved, like every time he put Arnaldo Toro in the game last year, or the lack of preparation against DePaul last year, when they knew it was a must win.   And as I said when I first joined this site, I grew up going to Nolan Richardson's camps and my high school coach modeled his playing style after Nolan's style, so I grew up around 40 minutes of hell, so of course I'm going to always be a fan of it and follow Mike's teams and root for him, that doesn't mean I'm going to think everything he does is perfect and I'm incapable of criticizing him.  If Mike doesn't make the tournament this year, that seats going to get a little warm.

And before you ask, no I'm not upset, I didn't take anything you said personal, and I don't think you have it out for me .  I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from.

At the end of the day, you will root for SJU for as long as CMA is here. Most of us on this board live and die with the program regardless of who the coach is, and have done so for a very long time and hope to do so for a long time. There's a big difference. 

Who said I won't root for St. John's if CMA isn't here?  I didn't realize it was a rule that you can't like multiple teams and it had to be for a certain reason and you have to had been a fan for a certain amount of time.   Different people become fans of different teams and schools for different reasons.  Some become fans because they live close, some because they went to the school/worked for the organization, and some because they are a fan of the players or coaches.  I've been a Memphis Grizzlies fan since I was 15 years old, I'm now 35 years old and rarely miss a game and go to several games a year.  The reason I became a fan of them is because my dad's best friend use to work for them and got me access to the locker room and Pau Gasol and Shane Battier signed basketball cards for me and that made my day as a kid.  My dad's friend hasn't worked for them since I was 17, yet 20 years later I'm still a huge fan, and my man cave is decked out in Grizzlies gear.

See Monte, that's why me and you will always butt heads, you assume a lot of stuff without actually knowing what you're talking about half the time, and I've never been one to just be quiet like that.

 

[L J S A]

I'm just glad Mathis is better than I thought he'd be, because Wheeler is exactly was his career numbers say he is.

For all the talk about depth in the offseason, we're really only seven deep. Just need to hope the seven are consistently good and the other four manage to be bright spots on occasion throughout the remainder of the year.

 

[monte]

Making Plays vs Amaseinyourface is a must read for the rest of the season

I just want that guy on my side god damnit! /media/kunena/emoticons/grin.png

As long as you don't ever say anything remotely negative about CMA or the players, you'll get him on your side /media/kunena/emoticons/wink.png

CMA and players are not off limits either.  Despite what you think I'm not some blind fanboy.  I call things like I see them and give my honest opinion.  And you can see in the first post of this thread, If I'm wrong about something, I have no problem admitting it and giving the other person their props for being correct. 

And just for the record CMA has plenty of issues as a coach, never said he didn't.  If you didn't just pick out the stuff you disagree with to argue about, you'd see that.  I criticize him plenty when I feel it's deserved, like every time he put Arnaldo Toro in the game last year, or the lack of preparation against DePaul last year, when they knew it was a must win.   And as I said when I first joined this site, I grew up going to Nolan Richardson's camps and my high school coach modeled his playing style after Nolan's style, so I grew up around 40 minutes of hell, so of course I'm going to always be a fan of it and follow Mike's teams and root for him, that doesn't mean I'm going to think everything he does is perfect and I'm incapable of criticizing him.  If Mike doesn't make the tournament this year, that seats going to get a little warm.

And before you ask, no I'm not upset, I didn't take anything you said personal, and I don't think you have it out for me .  I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from.

At the end of the day, you will root for SJU for as long as CMA is here. Most of us on this board live and die with the program regardless of who the coach is, and have done so for a very long time and hope to do so for a long time. There's a big difference. 

Who said I won't root for St. John's if CMA isn't here?  I didn't realize it was a rule that you can't like multiple teams and it had to be for a certain reason and you have to had been a fan for a certain amount of time.   Different people become fans of different teams and schools for different reasons.  Some become fans because they live close, some because they went to the school/worked for the organization, and some because they are a fan of the players or coaches.  I've been a Memphis Grizzlies fan since I was 15 years old, I'm now 35 years old and rarely miss a game and go to several games a year.  The reason I became a fan of them is because my dad's best friend use to work for them and got me access to the locker room and Pau Gasol and Shane Battier signed basketball cards for me and that made my day as a kid.  My dad's friend hasn't worked for them since I was 17, yet 20 years later I'm still a huge fan, and my man cave is decked out in Grizzlies gear.

See Monte, that's why me and you will always butt heads, you assume a lot of stuff without actually knowing what you're talking about half the time, and I've never been one to just be quiet like that.

Nah, we won't. Like I said, you ain't one of us and you'll never be. See ya loser. 

 

[Section3]

I like smith/coburn/wheeler as a trio off the bench. That’s 16 seasons of experience and a nice offensive punch. Smith can spell posh if he needs a breather, coburn on the wing, wheeler up front. I do prefer the other two bench bigs in Stanley and even Nyiwe but I don’t see coach giving up on Wheeler just yet. 

Posh / wusu / Mathis sets the tone for how we want to play. But with those three as your starting backcourt I think it’s essential we feature Soriano like we did yesterday or else we risk champ getting a bit overcrowded. We saw some Champ post up touches yesterday, I hope we continue to get more creative using him. Him at the top of the key in dribble hand off situations would be tough to guard. We saw it once yesterday. 

Great analysis…..I came away with hope that the team gained an appreciation for the value of an inside game both as a scoring option unto itself and a means by which to open the perimeter. Only time will tell whether this was an abberation.

Soriano’s use and development is not only critical to this team success but also to CMA’s long term ability to recruit bigs to SJ.

Also, hoping that Nyiwe offers some rim protection even if it’s across limited minutes. Thought it was interesting how CMA rotated Soriano/Nyiwe for offense/defense down the stretch despite Soriano only having one foul.

 

[MakingPlays]

Making Plays vs Amaseinyourface is a must read for the rest of the season

I just want that guy on my side god damnit! /media/kunena/emoticons/grin.png

As long as you don't ever say anything remotely negative about CMA or the players, you'll get him on your side /media/kunena/emoticons/wink.png

CMA and players are not off limits either.  Despite what you think I'm not some blind fanboy.  I call things like I see them and give my honest opinion.  And you can see in the first post of this thread, If I'm wrong about something, I have no problem admitting it and giving the other person their props for being correct. 

And just for the record CMA has plenty of issues as a coach, never said he didn't.  If you didn't just pick out the stuff you disagree with to argue about, you'd see that.  I criticize him plenty when I feel it's deserved, like every time he put Arnaldo Toro in the game last year, or the lack of preparation against DePaul last year, when they knew it was a must win.   And as I said when I first joined this site, I grew up going to Nolan Richardson's camps and my high school coach modeled his playing style after Nolan's style, so I grew up around 40 minutes of hell, so of course I'm going to always be a fan of it and follow Mike's teams and root for him, that doesn't mean I'm going to think everything he does is perfect and I'm incapable of criticizing him.  If Mike doesn't make the tournament this year, that seats going to get a little warm.

And before you ask, no I'm not upset, I didn't take anything you said personal, and I don't think you have it out for me .  I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from.

At the end of the day, you will root for SJU for as long as CMA is here. Most of us on this board live and die with the program regardless of who the coach is, and have done so for a very long time and hope to do so for a long time. There's a big difference. 

Who said I won't root for St. John's if CMA isn't here?  I didn't realize it was a rule that you can't like multiple teams and it had to be for a certain reason and you have to had been a fan for a certain amount of time.   Different people become fans of different teams and schools for different reasons.  Some become fans because they live close, some because they went to the school/worked for the organization, and some because they are a fan of the players or coaches.  I've been a Memphis Grizzlies fan since I was 15 years old, I'm now 35 years old and rarely miss a game and go to several games a year.  The reason I became a fan of them is because my dad's best friend use to work for them and got me access to the locker room and Pau Gasol and Shane Battier signed basketball cards for me and that made my day as a kid.  My dad's friend hasn't worked for them since I was 17, yet 20 years later I'm still a huge fan, and my man cave is decked out in Grizzlies gear.

See Monte, that's why me and you will always butt heads, you assume a lot of stuff without actually knowing what you're talking about half the time, and I've never been one to just be quiet like that.

Nah, we won't. Like I said, you ain't one of us and you'll never be. See ya loser. 

ROFL, whatever you are and whatever you do, I'm glad you consider me not to be apart of it.  

 

[PharmDJohnnie11]

I feel like we were sold a bill of goods by this staff. 

Based off what I've seen so far the players we had last year were a lot better at basketball than the guys this year, we still don't run any semblance of a real offense with set plays, the coaching has been horrible, and Champagnie looks like he's more concerned with chucking up threes to look good for NBA scouts than making winning plays. 

Soriano, Wheeler, Nwiye, Coburn, and Stanley clearly aren't Big East caliber rotation pieces who are struggling with the lowest of low end competition. It will only get worse when we play an actual good team. 

This has all the makings of bottom half Big East team as Villanova, Uconn, Xavier, Seton Hall, Providence and Marquette all look a lot better than us thus far.

But at least CMA purposely made our schedule so bad to preserve his stupid winning streak that literally no one cares about but him. 

 

[Amaseinyourface]

You’re right on target Monte.  
I’ve come to the conclusion that last year’s team was more talented.  I want to see if CMA can mold these players into a team.

How so?  In the non-conference last year, they only beat St. Peter's by 1 point, only beat a very bad Boston College team that only won 4 games the entire year by 4 points, and only beat Rider by 3 points.  And most of the rotation players had a full year in CMA's system.  

Only person I think that was more talented than the person they got replaced with in the rotation is Moore.  His defense was bad, but offensively he fit in really well when he wasn't taking wild 3 pointers for no reason, however we now know his attitude was not worth it.  As far as the guards Mathis, Smith, and Coburn are upgrades over all the guards that departed in Cole, Dunn, and Williams.  All of these guys are putting up medicore stats on bad mid-major teams.  Williams last game he put up 6 points against 1-5 Jacksonville State in a loss, in 25 minutes.  Rasheem Dunn just put up 4 points in 28 minutes against Davidson in a loss, and Vince Cole just put up 4 points in 29 minutes (0-7 from 3) in a loss against Toledo.  Hard to look at that and say these guys were more talented.

It not just talent level, it's also specific skill sets of the players, and chemistry. What our ex players do after they leave here means nothing. I judge them on what they did here. Having said that, I'll wait to decide which team is more talented since we have yet to see Coburn and a number of the other players play against higher level comp more(other then Indy). 

Knight specifically said talent.  That's what I'm referring to.  It's true you can be a better team if the chemistry and pieces fit with less talent, I agree with that 100%.  I'd actually rather have better chemistry than talent.

But, strictly based on talent as Knight mentioned, I don't see how anyone can put together a valid argument for last year's guards being better than this years.  Like I said, you can argue in Moore's favor, he's putting up good numbers at a mid-major and he put up good numbers here, so far he's outperforming Soriano at the mid-major level and the high major level.  If wasn't for his attitude he would have ended up at another high major, he had the interest.

Now back to the guards, Smith and Coburn both put up better numbers on a good mid-major teams than all those guys are putting up on a bad mid-major teams.  If you put those guys on those bad mid-major teams, where they are the #1 guy, they probably average close to 20 PPG.  There's a reason why all those guys that left here ended up at mid-major schools, coaches know how to evaluate talent, there's plenty of college basketball footage out on all of them and most of their interest came from mid-major coaches.  Nobody goes to a bad mid-major team if they can to a high major and be a significant contributor.






 

Dunn averaged 15.5 points and 6 rebounds as a sophomore at saint francis. Is he less talented now or is the sample size too small? His stats are worse now than they were at sju. So like him and the rest of the transfers, in and out, their stats so far this year arent going to tell me who’s more talented. We could point to dunn scoring 24 vs nova while at sju. Williams scoring 26 vs gtown. Marcellus 25 vs creighton and having huge second half scoring bursts in big east wins. Moore having 26 & 12 vs gtown and being the most productive scorer off the bench in the BE, and still I’m willing to say that doesn’t mean the guys coming in can’t be better.

I don’t think there is anything any guy has shown at sju this year that proves definitively they are better or more talented than the guys who left. Except for Sorianos size, there’s not much that last years team didn’t have that this years team does. He is what gives me the most hope about our potential ceiling and because of him I still think we can finish much better than last year. The rest of the roster, my GUESS is we’re about even, just not as used to playing with each-other yet.

My biggest concern is our front court. I know it's early, but if you asked me right now if I would trade Soriano and Wheeler for Moore(purely on his talent) and Earl, my answer would be "in a heartbeat". IMO both were more talented and better suited for CMA's style of play. Again, it's early. 


 

My biggest concern overall is the frontcourt as well. It sure has the most unknowns that’s for sure. But I still think it has the potential to make us better than we were last year. That’s why I would also take Earlington and Moore over Wheeler but not willing to say that about Soriano.

That’s a dimension we were missing last year and one that I think could put us over the top if it works out this year. And Im still pretty hopeful it can.

 

[room112]

I feel like we were sold a bill of goods by this staff. 

Based off what I've seen so far the players we had last year were a lot better at basketball than the guys this year, we still don't run any semblance of a real offense with set plays, the coaching has been horrible, and Champagnie looks like he's more concerned with chucking up threes to look good for NBA scouts than making winning plays. 

Soriano, Wheeler, Nwiye, Coburn, and Stanley clearly aren't Big East caliber rotation pieces who are struggling with the lowest of low end competition. It will only get worse when we play an actual good team. 

This has all the makings of bottom half Big East team as Villanova, Uconn, Xavier, Seton Hall, Providence and Marquette all look a lot better than us thus far.

But at least CMA purposely made our schedule so bad to preserve his stupid winning streak that literally no one cares about but him. 

From what I understand, the coach does not make the schedule. It's the athletic director.

 

[otis]

From what I understand, the coach does not make the schedule. It's the athletic director.

———-

The below linked Basketball Travelers Scheduling website was formerly open for public viewing.  The site was an interesting read because different level D1 schools would post open dates they were seeking to schedule basketball games (both home and away) and included the financial remuneration the home team was offering the visiting team to accept.  Hi major programs would offer other high majors home - home games.

Every listing I recall had an assistant coach, not the AD as the contact person for scheduling.

unfortunately the website is no longer open to open viewing.

[URL]https://www.btischeduling.com[/URL]
 

 

[MainMan]

Just think how far along this program would be if we only hired the Yale coach.

 

[Knight]

There’s a lot of frustrated posters this morning.
Relax it’s too early in the season to throw rocks at guys sitting on the same side of the court.  /media/kunena/emoticons/smile.png