What should the rotation be?

[MakingPlays]

You’re right on target Monte.  
I’ve come to the conclusion that last year’s team was more talented.  I want to see if CMA can mold these players into a team.

How so?  In the non-conference last year, they only beat St. Peter's by 1 point, only beat a very bad Boston College team that only won 4 games the entire year by 4 points, and only beat Rider by 3 points.  And most of the rotation players had a full year in CMA's system.  

Only person I think that was more talented than the person they got replaced with in the rotation is Moore.  His defense was bad, but offensively he fit in really well when he wasn't taking wild 3 pointers for no reason, however we now know his attitude was not worth it.  As far as the guards Mathis, Smith, and Coburn are upgrades over all the guards that departed in Cole, Dunn, and Williams.  All of these guys are putting up medicore stats on bad mid-major teams.  Williams last game he put up 6 points against 1-5 Jacksonville State in a loss, in 25 minutes.  Rasheem Dunn just put up 4 points in 28 minutes against Davidson in a loss, and Vince Cole just put up 4 points in 29 minutes (0-7 from 3) in a loss against Toledo.  Hard to look at that and say these guys were more talented.

It not just talent level, it's also specific skill sets of the players, and chemistry. What our ex players do after they leave here means nothing. I judge them on what they did here. Having said that, I'll wait to decide which team is more talented since we have yet to see Coburn and a number of the other players play against higher level comp more(other then Indy). 

Knight specifically said talent.  That's what I'm referring to.  It's true you can be a better team if the chemistry and pieces fit with less talent, I agree with that 100%.  I'd actually rather have better chemistry than talent.

But, strictly based on talent as Knight mentioned, I don't see how anyone can put together a valid argument for last year's guards being better than this years.  Like I said, you can argue in Moore's favor, he's putting up good numbers at a mid-major and he put up good numbers here, so far he's outperforming Soriano at the mid-major level and the high major level.  If wasn't for his attitude he would have ended up at another high major, he had the interest.

Now back to the guards, Smith and Coburn both put up better numbers on a good mid-major teams than all those guys are putting up on a bad mid-major teams.  If you put those guys on those bad mid-major teams, where they are the #1 guy, they probably average close to 20 PPG.  There's a reason why all those guys that left here ended up at mid-major schools, coaches know how to evaluate talent, there's plenty of college basketball footage out on all of them and most of their interest came from mid-major coaches.  Nobody goes to a bad mid-major team if they can to a high major and be a significant contributor.
 

 

[monte]

You’re right on target Monte.  
I’ve come to the conclusion that last year’s team was more talented.  I want to see if CMA can mold these players into a team.

How so?  In the non-conference last year, they only beat St. Peter's by 1 point, only beat a very bad Boston College team that only won 4 games the entire year by 4 points, and only beat Rider by 3 points.  And most of the rotation players had a full year in CMA's system.  

Only person I think that was more talented than the person they got replaced with in the rotation is Moore.  His defense was bad, but offensively he fit in really well when he wasn't taking wild 3 pointers for no reason, however we now know his attitude was not worth it.  As far as the guards Mathis, Smith, and Coburn are upgrades over all the guards that departed in Cole, Dunn, and Williams.  All of these guys are putting up medicore stats on bad mid-major teams.  Williams last game he put up 6 points against 1-5 Jacksonville State in a loss, in 25 minutes.  Rasheem Dunn just put up 4 points in 28 minutes against Davidson in a loss, and Vince Cole just put up 4 points in 29 minutes (0-7 from 3) in a loss against Toledo.  Hard to look at that and say these guys were more talented.                                            Evaluating Talent is subjective .  Sure it’s easy to say our former Players aren’t setting the World on fire for their new teams but , that overlooks the fact that they were more valuable here than there .   Agree ?                 Plus , other than the last game disappointment against Seton Hall with a broken handed. Posh trying to play , that team was finally playing well .     I do agree that last years team struggled early against Cupcakes and early in the BE Season and perhaps CMA can bring that rabbit out of the hat again . Let’s hope so .   Lastly , I don’t see Wheeler as  better than Earlington . The Duke just had a nice game with 16 points for San Diego .   And ,I think a healthy Williams would , at least equal , Smith and had more to the basket game . Plus , he was a better shooter than Mathis .  Dunn ?  With Posh often hampered by injury , Rasheem did give us a back up point who could get to the rim and was a tenacious defender .   Plus , led by example . And , despite his detractors , Cole did give us a boost in more than a game or 2 with his long range Bombs .  He showed Clutch on more than 1 occasion . 

Agree with all, and let me just add that Dunn was more than a back up PG, he was our primary ball handler much of the time. And did an admirable job at that. We have no one else who can run the offense in an uptempo style the way Dunn did, and Posh does. At least not yet. 

 

[nycfan]

It's not only about talent, but continuity as well.  We lost a significant number of players with multiple years experience playing here.  Very difficult to have a cohesive team with 75% roster turnover in one year.

 

[monte]

You’re right on target Monte.  
I’ve come to the conclusion that last year’s team was more talented.  I want to see if CMA can mold these players into a team.

How so?  In the non-conference last year, they only beat St. Peter's by 1 point, only beat a very bad Boston College team that only won 4 games the entire year by 4 points, and only beat Rider by 3 points.  And most of the rotation players had a full year in CMA's system.  

Only person I think that was more talented than the person they got replaced with in the rotation is Moore.  His defense was bad, but offensively he fit in really well when he wasn't taking wild 3 pointers for no reason, however we now know his attitude was not worth it.  As far as the guards Mathis, Smith, and Coburn are upgrades over all the guards that departed in Cole, Dunn, and Williams.  All of these guys are putting up medicore stats on bad mid-major teams.  Williams last game he put up 6 points against 1-5 Jacksonville State in a loss, in 25 minutes.  Rasheem Dunn just put up 4 points in 28 minutes against Davidson in a loss, and Vince Cole just put up 4 points in 29 minutes (0-7 from 3) in a loss against Toledo.  Hard to look at that and say these guys were more talented.

It not just talent level, it's also specific skill sets of the players, and chemistry. What our ex players do after they leave here means nothing. I judge them on what they did here. Having said that, I'll wait to decide which team is more talented since we have yet to see Coburn and a number of the other players play against higher level comp more(other then Indy). 

Knight specifically said talent.  That's what I'm referring to.  It's true you can be a better team if the chemistry and pieces fit with less talent, I agree with that 100%.  I'd actually rather have better chemistry than talent.

But, strictly based on talent as Knight mentioned, I don't see how anyone can put together a valid argument for last year's guards being better than this years.  Like I said, you can argue in Moore's favor, he's putting up good numbers at a mid-major and he put up good numbers here, so far he's outperforming Soriano at the mid-major level and the high major level.  If wasn't for his attitude he would have ended up at another high major, he had the interest.

Now back to the guards, Smith and Coburn both put up better numbers on a good mid-major teams than all those guys are putting up on a bad mid-major teams.  If you put those guys on those bad mid-major teams, where they are the #1 guy, they probably average close to 20 PPG.  There's a reason why all those guys that left here ended up at mid-major schools, coaches know how to evaluate talent, there's plenty of college basketball footage out on all of them and most of their interest came from mid-major coaches.  Nobody goes to a bad mid-major team if they can to a high major and be a significant contributor.

 

They all left a high major team where most of them were, and would have continued to be, significant contributors. You won't give an inch so I'm not gonna belabor the point, I'm just gonna say one last time that until I see a bigger sample size against high majors, I'm not passing judgement on which players and which team is more talented. 

 

[Amaseinyourface]

You’re right on target Monte.  
I’ve come to the conclusion that last year’s team was more talented.  I want to see if CMA can mold these players into a team.

How so?  In the non-conference last year, they only beat St. Peter's by 1 point, only beat a very bad Boston College team that only won 4 games the entire year by 4 points, and only beat Rider by 3 points.  And most of the rotation players had a full year in CMA's system.  

Only person I think that was more talented than the person they got replaced with in the rotation is Moore.  His defense was bad, but offensively he fit in really well when he wasn't taking wild 3 pointers for no reason, however we now know his attitude was not worth it.  As far as the guards Mathis, Smith, and Coburn are upgrades over all the guards that departed in Cole, Dunn, and Williams.  All of these guys are putting up medicore stats on bad mid-major teams.  Williams last game he put up 6 points against 1-5 Jacksonville State in a loss, in 25 minutes.  Rasheem Dunn just put up 4 points in 28 minutes against Davidson in a loss, and Vince Cole just put up 4 points in 29 minutes (0-7 from 3) in a loss against Toledo.  Hard to look at that and say these guys were more talented.

It not just talent level, it's also specific skill sets of the players, and chemistry. What our ex players do after they leave here means nothing. I judge them on what they did here. Having said that, I'll wait to decide which team is more talented since we have yet to see Coburn and a number of the other players play against higher level comp more(other then Indy). 

Knight specifically said talent.  That's what I'm referring to.  It's true you can be a better team if the chemistry and pieces fit with less talent, I agree with that 100%.  I'd actually rather have better chemistry than talent.

But, strictly based on talent as Knight mentioned, I don't see how anyone can put together a valid argument for last year's guards being better than this years.  Like I said, you can argue in Moore's favor, he's putting up good numbers at a mid-major and he put up good numbers here, so far he's outperforming Soriano at the mid-major level and the high major level.  If wasn't for his attitude he would have ended up at another high major, he had the interest.

Now back to the guards, Smith and Coburn both put up better numbers on a good mid-major teams than all those guys are putting up on a bad mid-major teams.  If you put those guys on those bad mid-major teams, where they are the #1 guy, they probably average close to 20 PPG.  There's a reason why all those guys that left here ended up at mid-major schools, coaches know how to evaluate talent, there's plenty of college basketball footage out on all of them and most of their interest came from mid-major coaches.  Nobody goes to a bad mid-major team if they can to a high major and be a significant contributor.




 

Dunn averaged 15.5 points and 6 rebounds as a sophomore at saint francis. Is he less talented now or is the sample size too small? His stats are worse now than they were at sju. So like him and the rest of the transfers, in and out, their stats so far this year arent going to tell me who’s more talented. We could point to dunn scoring 24 vs nova while at sju. Williams scoring 26 vs gtown. Marcellus 25 vs creighton and having huge second half scoring bursts in big east wins. Moore having 26 & 12 vs gtown and being the most productive scorer off the bench in the BE, and still I’m willing to say that doesn’t mean the guys coming in can’t be better.

I don’t think there is anything any guy has shown at sju this year that proves definitively they are better or more talented than the guys who left. Except for Sorianos size, there’s not much that last years team didn’t have that this years team does. He is what gives me the most hope about our potential ceiling and because of him I still think we can finish much better than last year. The rest of the roster, my GUESS is we’re about even, just not as used to playing with each-other yet.

 

[redmannorth]

You’re right on target Monte.  
I’ve come to the conclusion that last year’s team was more talented.  I want to see if CMA can mold these players into a team.

How so?  In the non-conference last year, they only beat St. Peter's by 1 point, only beat a very bad Boston College team that only won 4 games the entire year by 4 points, and only beat Rider by 3 points.  And most of the rotation players had a full year in CMA's system.  

Only person I think that was more talented than the person they got replaced with in the rotation is Moore.  His defense was bad, but offensively he fit in really well when he wasn't taking wild 3 pointers for no reason, however we now know his attitude was not worth it.  As far as the guards Mathis, Smith, and Coburn are upgrades over all the guards that departed in Cole, Dunn, and Williams.  All of these guys are putting up medicore stats on bad mid-major teams.  Williams last game he put up 6 points against 1-5 Jacksonville State in a loss, in 25 minutes.  Rasheem Dunn just put up 4 points in 28 minutes against Davidson in a loss, and Vince Cole just put up 4 points in 29 minutes (0-7 from 3) in a loss against Toledo.  Hard to look at that and say these guys were more talented.

It not just talent level, it's also specific skill sets of the players, and chemistry. What our ex players do after they leave here means nothing. I judge them on what they did here. Having said that, I'll wait to decide which team is more talented since we have yet to see Coburn and a number of the other players play against higher level comp more(other then Indy). 

Knight specifically said talent.  That's what I'm referring to.  It's true you can be a better team if the chemistry and pieces fit with less talent, I agree with that 100%.  I'd actually rather have better chemistry than talent.

But, strictly based on talent as Knight mentioned, I don't see how anyone can put together a valid argument for last year's guards being better than this years.  Like I said, you can argue in Moore's favor, he's putting up good numbers at a mid-major and he put up good numbers here, so far he's outperforming Soriano at the mid-major level and the high major level.  If wasn't for his attitude he would have ended up at another high major, he had the interest.

Now back to the guards, Smith and Coburn both put up better numbers on a good mid-major teams than all those guys are putting up on a bad mid-major teams.  If you put those guys on those bad mid-major teams, where they are the #1 guy, they probably average close to 20 PPG.  There's a reason why all those guys that left here ended up at mid-major schools, coaches know how to evaluate talent, there's plenty of college basketball footage out on all of them and most of their interest came from mid-major coaches.  Nobody goes to a bad mid-major team if they can to a high major and be a significant contributor.


 

They all left a high major team where most of them were, and would have continued to be, significant contributors. You won't give an inch so I'm not gonna belabor the point, I'm just gonna say one last time that until I see a bigger sample size against high majors, I'm not passing judgement on which players and which team is more talented. 

I really don’t understand the argument when people throw up stats as to what our former players are doing at new schools, it has zero bearing on our current poor play. And their poor stats could be for a multitude of reasons. 
the bottom line is that Dunn, Williams , Earlington,  Moore and Crime dog all improved under CMA and were valuable parts of a team that achieved last season and was a Posh injury away from dancing. Four of those five were also very good teammates by all accounts. I can’t necessarily say the same for Cole, Robert’s and Caraher in terms of on the court improvement. 
I wish all of the players who left the very best of future success but from where we sit today Dunn, Willams, Earlington Moore and Crime dog all would have helped this struggling team. 
So right now I don’t see a winning proposition for SJU with the large roster turnover we incurred last spring. 
i hope things turn around sooner than later. 

 

[paultzman]

Freshman guard Rafael Pinson missed his 3rd straight game with a broken finger. Coach Anderson said that he would hopefully begin shooting “next week” but that they would be cautious with the injury.
Per JPM114

 

[Knight]

I think part of the problem with getting these new players to blend is that some are seeing SJU as a new chance to show off their skills and have not bought into the CMA team concept.

 

[IDRAFT]

I was one of the guys pushing against the thought it was going to be so simple to upgrade the talent. But still, last years team was 7-7 overall and 2-6 in BE play before anyone thought they could be any good. Nothing we have seen so far shows me this group CANT be better than last years. They just havn’t found themselves yet. Unless you believe both the individual talent level and CMAs ability to coach have both dropped off significantly, I think we should still be optimistic about where we will be second half of the season.  

This!!!!!

 

[monte]

You’re right on target Monte.  
I’ve come to the conclusion that last year’s team was more talented.  I want to see if CMA can mold these players into a team.

How so?  In the non-conference last year, they only beat St. Peter's by 1 point, only beat a very bad Boston College team that only won 4 games the entire year by 4 points, and only beat Rider by 3 points.  And most of the rotation players had a full year in CMA's system.  

Only person I think that was more talented than the person they got replaced with in the rotation is Moore.  His defense was bad, but offensively he fit in really well when he wasn't taking wild 3 pointers for no reason, however we now know his attitude was not worth it.  As far as the guards Mathis, Smith, and Coburn are upgrades over all the guards that departed in Cole, Dunn, and Williams.  All of these guys are putting up medicore stats on bad mid-major teams.  Williams last game he put up 6 points against 1-5 Jacksonville State in a loss, in 25 minutes.  Rasheem Dunn just put up 4 points in 28 minutes against Davidson in a loss, and Vince Cole just put up 4 points in 29 minutes (0-7 from 3) in a loss against Toledo.  Hard to look at that and say these guys were more talented.

It not just talent level, it's also specific skill sets of the players, and chemistry. What our ex players do after they leave here means nothing. I judge them on what they did here. Having said that, I'll wait to decide which team is more talented since we have yet to see Coburn and a number of the other players play against higher level comp more(other then Indy). 

Knight specifically said talent.  That's what I'm referring to.  It's true you can be a better team if the chemistry and pieces fit with less talent, I agree with that 100%.  I'd actually rather have better chemistry than talent.

But, strictly based on talent as Knight mentioned, I don't see how anyone can put together a valid argument for last year's guards being better than this years.  Like I said, you can argue in Moore's favor, he's putting up good numbers at a mid-major and he put up good numbers here, so far he's outperforming Soriano at the mid-major level and the high major level.  If wasn't for his attitude he would have ended up at another high major, he had the interest.

Now back to the guards, Smith and Coburn both put up better numbers on a good mid-major teams than all those guys are putting up on a bad mid-major teams.  If you put those guys on those bad mid-major teams, where they are the #1 guy, they probably average close to 20 PPG.  There's a reason why all those guys that left here ended up at mid-major schools, coaches know how to evaluate talent, there's plenty of college basketball footage out on all of them and most of their interest came from mid-major coaches.  Nobody goes to a bad mid-major team if they can to a high major and be a significant contributor.





 

Dunn averaged 15.5 points and 6 rebounds as a sophomore at saint francis. Is he less talented now or is the sample size too small? His stats are worse now than they were at sju. So like him and the rest of the transfers, in and out, their stats so far this year arent going to tell me who’s more talented. We could point to dunn scoring 24 vs nova while at sju. Williams scoring 26 vs gtown. Marcellus 25 vs creighton and having huge second half scoring bursts in big east wins. Moore having 26 & 12 vs gtown and being the most productive scorer off the bench in the BE, and still I’m willing to say that doesn’t mean the guys coming in can’t be better.

I don’t think there is anything any guy has shown at sju this year that proves definitively they are better or more talented than the guys who left. Except for Sorianos size, there’s not much that last years team didn’t have that this years team does. He is what gives me the most hope about our potential ceiling and because of him I still think we can finish much better than last year. The rest of the roster, my GUESS is we’re about even, just not as used to playing with each-other yet.

My biggest concern is our front court. I know it's early, but if you asked me right now if I would trade Soriano and Wheeler for Moore(purely on his talent) and Earl, my answer would be "in a heartbeat". IMO both were more talented and better suited for CMA's style of play. Again, it's early. 

 

 

[SLYFOXX1968]

I think part of the problem with getting these new players to blend is that some are seeing SJU as a new chance to show off their skills and have not bought into the CMA team concept.                   That is a very real possibility .   Wheeler hasn’t shown a thing and it makes you wonder why he transferred from a possible NCAA Championship team at Purdue to come here and sit the Bench because his skills don’t fit CMA’ s model ?   He likely thought his Purdue resume would get him lots of PT here . So far . Nope .     And , as for the Mid Major school of thought , the reality is this , Smith , Coburn , Soriano , all are stepping up in class from Vermont ,, Hofstra , Fordham respectively .  Mathis coming from Rutgers being a exception .   While it’s true our former Players went to Mid Majors , they had already proven their Worth at the BE level  over a few years .  And , I strongly feel a healthy Williams is a better player than Smith or Mathis . Time will tell .  The loss of Earlington is also a big minus in my opinion . Dunn too . 
 

 

[Mean Gene]

You’re right on target Monte.  
I’ve come to the conclusion that last year’s team was more talented.  I want to see if CMA can mold these players into a team.

How so?  In the non-conference last year, they only beat St. Peter's by 1 point, only beat a very bad Boston College team that only won 4 games the entire year by 4 points, and only beat Rider by 3 points.  And most of the rotation players had a full year in CMA's system.  

Only person I think that was more talented than the person they got replaced with in the rotation is Moore.  His defense was bad, but offensively he fit in really well when he wasn't taking wild 3 pointers for no reason, however we now know his attitude was not worth it.  As far as the guards Mathis, Smith, and Coburn are upgrades over all the guards that departed in Cole, Dunn, and Williams.  All of these guys are putting up medicore stats on bad mid-major teams.  Williams last game he put up 6 points against 1-5 Jacksonville State in a loss, in 25 minutes.  Rasheem Dunn just put up 4 points in 28 minutes against Davidson in a loss, and Vince Cole just put up 4 points in 29 minutes (0-7 from 3) in a loss against Toledo.  Hard to look at that and say these guys were more talented.

It not just talent level, it's also specific skill sets of the players, and chemistry. What our ex players do after they leave here means nothing. I judge them on what they did here. Having said that, I'll wait to decide which team is more talented since we have yet to see Coburn and a number of the other players play against higher level comp more(other then Indy). 

Knight specifically said talent.  That's what I'm referring to.  It's true you can be a better team if the chemistry and pieces fit with less talent, I agree with that 100%.  I'd actually rather have better chemistry than talent.

But, strictly based on talent as Knight mentioned, I don't see how anyone can put together a valid argument for last year's guards being better than this years.  Like I said, you can argue in Moore's favor, he's putting up good numbers at a mid-major and he put up good numbers here, so far he's outperforming Soriano at the mid-major level and the high major level.  If wasn't for his attitude he would have ended up at another high major, he had the interest.

Now back to the guards, Smith and Coburn both put up better numbers on a good mid-major teams than all those guys are putting up on a bad mid-major teams.  If you put those guys on those bad mid-major teams, where they are the #1 guy, they probably average close to 20 PPG.  There's a reason why all those guys that left here ended up at mid-major schools, coaches know how to evaluate talent, there's plenty of college basketball footage out on all of them and most of their interest came from mid-major coaches.  Nobody goes to a bad mid-major team if they can to a high major and be a significant contributor.



 

They all left a high major team where most of them were, and would have continued to be, significant contributors. You won't give an inch so I'm not gonna belabor the point, I'm just gonna say one last time that until I see a bigger sample size against high majors, I'm not passing judgement on which players and which team is more talented. 

I really don’t understand the argument when people throw up stats as to what our former players are doing at new schools, it has zero bearing on our current poor play. And their poor stats could be for a multitude of reasons. 
the bottom line is that Dunn, Williams , Earlington,  Moore and Crime dog all improved under CMA and were valuable parts of a team that achieved last season and was a Posh injury away from dancing. Four of those five were also very good teammates by all accounts. I can’t necessarily say the same for Cole, Robert’s and Caraher in terms of on the court improvement. 
I wish all of the players who left the very best of future success but from where we sit today Dunn, Willams, Earlington Moore and Crime dog all would have helped this struggling team. 
So right now I don’t see a winning proposition for SJU with the large roster turnover we incurred last spring. 
i hope things turn around sooner than later. 

Redmannorth, I too hope they turn it around sooner rather than later. The fact of the matter is that CMA and staff felt the need to turn this roster over for whatever reasons. If this doesn’t get turned around then it’s solely on CMA and staff. They chose this path. The guy that we miss most from last years team in my opinion is Earlington. His ability to play inside or out and his ability to rebound and go get the basketball. I know people say it’s Moore from a basketball perspective but he was a head case so that ends that. People say Dunn , but as long as Posh and Pinzon are healthy we’ll be ok at the point. Pinzon showed something in that Indiana game. Mathis has been good and I think will only get better in this system and I think that Smith and Coburn ultimately will be better more consistent shooters than the guys who left. Williams was a great kid but he was hurt all the time.

 

[IDRAFT]

Last years team had the best Big East record of any SJU team since 2015. If everyone returned why wouldn’t that team improve? Not one player left for the NBA or even to go play overseas they have continued with the college game. So I have a hard time believing that group could not, at minimum, come in fourth in the Big East this year. 

That’s a logical minimum standard for this group. Since they are 0-0 in Big East play no issue yet either. It’s early. It’s fine to have concerns but it’s far from time to draw conclusions. Just like it was way too early to anoint these newcomers as a team of stars just because they came to SJU. Or throw shade at former players just because they transferred out. 

My philosophy on these “easy” OOC games is just win them. I agree the last two were a tough watch but they won. For the NCAA tournament obsessed that means no Quad 4 losses - yet. So in keeping with the spirit of the season - I’m thankful!

 

[room112]

I feel like those who are saying last year's team is better have a short term memory. Maybe last year's team at the end of last season was better than our team now. 

But last year's team early? Did everyone forget we only beat St Peters by 1, only beat Boston College by 4, lost to a good but unranked BYU team, only beat Rider by 3, and then started 1-5 in conference.  

The comments on this board last year was that last year's team was terrible. That was until the turnaround in January. 

 

[mjmaherjr]

I feel like those who are saying last year's team is better have a short term memory. Maybe last year's team at the end of last season was better than our team now. 

But last year's team early? Did everyone forget we only beat St Peters by 1, only beat Boston College by 4, lost to a good but unranked BYU team, only beat Rider by 3, and then started 1-5 in conference.  

The comments on this board last year was that last year's team was terrible. That was until the turnaround in January. 

I'm relatively sure most of us that are saying last years team was better are saying that that team would be better than this years now because of continuity. 

 

[monte]

I feel like those who are saying last year's team is better have a short term memory. Maybe last year's team at the end of last season was better than our team now. 

But last year's team early? Did everyone forget we only beat St Peters by 1, only beat Boston College by 4, lost to a good but unranked BYU team, only beat Rider by 3, and then started 1-5 in conference.  

The comments on this board last year was that last year's team was terrible. That was until the turnaround in January. 

I'm relatively sure most of us that are saying last years team was better are saying that that team would be better than this years now because of continuity. 

A segment of our fanbase was convinced that this year's team was considerably more talented then last year's team. I didn't see it then, and I don't see it now. Maybe slightly more talented, maybe not. Time will tell. But I don't see, and don't expect to see, significantly better. And unless you significantly upgrade the talent, especially in CMA's complicated system, IMO you are much better off with bringing back as many of the prior year's kids as possible. 

 

[RedStormNC]

Is CMA's system complicated or more just that physically demanding and he expects more?

even at its peak, it doesn't look all that complex.

All the talk about playing down to the competition an perhaps only Champ, Posh, Wusu & Mathis can say that.  Other guys moved up a level and should be showing out.

 

[MakingPlays]

You’re right on target Monte.  
I’ve come to the conclusion that last year’s team was more talented.  I want to see if CMA can mold these players into a team.

How so?  In the non-conference last year, they only beat St. Peter's by 1 point, only beat a very bad Boston College team that only won 4 games the entire year by 4 points, and only beat Rider by 3 points.  And most of the rotation players had a full year in CMA's system.  

Only person I think that was more talented than the person they got replaced with in the rotation is Moore.  His defense was bad, but offensively he fit in really well when he wasn't taking wild 3 pointers for no reason, however we now know his attitude was not worth it.  As far as the guards Mathis, Smith, and Coburn are upgrades over all the guards that departed in Cole, Dunn, and Williams.  All of these guys are putting up medicore stats on bad mid-major teams.  Williams last game he put up 6 points against 1-5 Jacksonville State in a loss, in 25 minutes.  Rasheem Dunn just put up 4 points in 28 minutes against Davidson in a loss, and Vince Cole just put up 4 points in 29 minutes (0-7 from 3) in a loss against Toledo.  Hard to look at that and say these guys were more talented.

It not just talent level, it's also specific skill sets of the players, and chemistry. What our ex players do after they leave here means nothing. I judge them on what they did here. Having said that, I'll wait to decide which team is more talented since we have yet to see Coburn and a number of the other players play against higher level comp more(other then Indy). 

Knight specifically said talent.  That's what I'm referring to.  It's true you can be a better team if the chemistry and pieces fit with less talent, I agree with that 100%.  I'd actually rather have better chemistry than talent.

But, strictly based on talent as Knight mentioned, I don't see how anyone can put together a valid argument for last year's guards being better than this years.  Like I said, you can argue in Moore's favor, he's putting up good numbers at a mid-major and he put up good numbers here, so far he's outperforming Soriano at the mid-major level and the high major level.  If wasn't for his attitude he would have ended up at another high major, he had the interest.

Now back to the guards, Smith and Coburn both put up better numbers on a good mid-major teams than all those guys are putting up on a bad mid-major teams.  If you put those guys on those bad mid-major teams, where they are the #1 guy, they probably average close to 20 PPG.  There's a reason why all those guys that left here ended up at mid-major schools, coaches know how to evaluate talent, there's plenty of college basketball footage out on all of them and most of their interest came from mid-major coaches.  Nobody goes to a bad mid-major team if they can to a high major and be a significant contributor.





 

Dunn averaged 15.5 points and 6 rebounds as a sophomore at saint francis. Is he less talented now or is the sample size too small? His stats are worse now than they were at sju. So like him and the rest of the transfers, in and out, their stats so far this year arent going to tell me who’s more talented. We could point to dunn scoring 24 vs nova while at sju. Williams scoring 26 vs gtown. Marcellus 25 vs creighton and having huge second half scoring bursts in big east wins. Moore having 26 & 12 vs gtown and being the most productive scorer off the bench in the BE, and still I’m willing to say that doesn’t mean the guys coming in can’t be better.

I don’t think there is anything any guy has shown at sju this year that proves definitively they are better or more talented than the guys who left. Except for Sorianos size, there’s not much that last years team didn’t have that this years team does. He is what gives me the most hope about our potential ceiling and because of him I still think we can finish much better than last year. The rest of the roster, my GUESS is we’re about even, just not as used to playing with each-other yet.

I'm not going off of stats 4 or 5 years ago, I'm going off stats a year ago that's more accurate to their current talent level.  5 years ago John Wall was one of the best players in the NBA, today his team pays him to stay at home because he isn't that great anymore, so I'm not sure why you would bring up stats 5 years ago to make a point.  

But, whatever we can throw comparing last year's stats and this year's stats out the window.  And we can just go off of what the professionals that get paid to do this year in and year out think. Me and you are fans and don't know how to evaluate talent, D1 coaches however do.  This summer (a few months ago) the guys coming in had significantly more high major interest than the guys going out, minus Greg Williams Jr., who's interest this his dad was putting out was more than likely significantly exaggerated.  Like I said, no player is going to a bad mid-major program to play 12 road games in a row to play on espn+ and espn 3 in mediocre facilities, with few fans watching, if a high major program is offering them a significant role.  The question is will the guys fit and mesh better than last year's team.  You can be more talented and be a worse overall team.
 

 

[Andrew]

I am going to try to get the thread back on track as to what the rotation should be.

I am fine with starting lineup with either Wusu or Smith starting. Along with Posh, Champs, Mathis and Soriano that is probably our strongest six. After that I think it will be situational basketball and going with the hot hand. Hopefully Pinzon comes back soon as he adds another ball handler which we desperately need.

 

[NCJohnnie]

Six games guys! I wont hazard a guess as to whether this team will wind up being better than last years team and if they're not that is on the  staff because it is fair to expect improvement. But I've seen enough to know that CMA uses OOC schedule to see how his pieces fit and we have yet to lose a game we were expected to win.
I expect us to.come to.play Friday. We'll see.