The Eternal "Who's the Worst SJU Coach" Debate

Beasts of the East said:
1) Mullin DID move back to New York full time, buying a house in Manhasset for his family. Due to a family issue, they decided that his wife would move to the Bay Area with their youngest child, and Chris would live in NY. I spoke to Chris about this and his full intention was for his wife to move to NY with him when that kid started college. He added that his two sons lived in the NYC area and loved it here. Chris thought it was no big deal since as an nba player, constantly traveled away from home. Error on his part.

2) Chris had 3 AD's his first three years, and as a result had almost no oversight and guidance that may have avoided missteps.

3) Hiring Slice was a gigantic mistake, but everyone on here thought we stole him from Calipari. What idiot at St. John's would approve a 6 year guarantee with no buyout for an assistant? Answer: The same idiot who extended CMA 4 years with 2 remaining, in essence a 6 year guaranteed deal at 4x Slice salary.

4) Bobby G. Pinched pennies. So you fire Slice but no one was there to demand they hire an associate head coach to replace. So they saved on an assistant and it hurt on the court, especially with a newbie head coach.

5) Yes, Lavin set the precedent by hiring a special assistant. His was a 6 time national coach of the year, Gene Keady. Mullin's special assistant was a former NBA all star who also never coached before. Again, no AD to give pushback.

6) Mullin's tenure then was immediately compromised by a family situation that became bi-coastal, and over his final 2 years the fatal illness of his best friend and older brother.

5) Chris never realized the coaching in college is a 12 month a year, crazy bevy of responsibilities. Pitino assembled a great staff, all of whom have considerable authority and responsibility. Mullin had Greg and Matt (who never played so really didnt coach) and Richmond, who wasn't permitted to spesk in the huddle.

I'm sorry for all of this, Mullin was bashed on here and on twitter by fans as lazy and inept. Greg St. Jean, universally praised here with good reason once told me that Chris has the best basketball mind of anyone he ever knew (which includes Don Nelson and his own Dad). Terrence once confided to me, "Chris hates losing. This is tearing him apart ".

Failed as a college coach, yes.
Made mistakes that could have been corrected, yes.
Unfortunate family situations hampering him, yes.

Lazy, stupid, and whatever other invectives based on fans perceptions of his knowledge or efforts - mostly way off.

I'm in Rick's camp on this and see Carmine's point.

Chris is the greatest player we've ever had, and hopefully we see him at a game soon. Rick is rolling the red carpet out and I know all of u would welcome that.
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I think your post hits on the two things I felt about the Mullin hire from beginning to the end.

He didn't know what the job entailed, beyond the x's and o's stuff, nor how to do it. Knew from the start it was a disaster waiting to happen especially as the staff was assembled. A mix of inexperience and a bag man with no bags. Still the greatest STJ player of course and should be honored as such.

That said Mahoney and Jarvis would lead my hindsight is 20/20 list as worst hires as well as I would take into account expectations vs. results. What they inherited vs. what they left behind in their wake.
 
austour said:
I think your post hits on the two things I felt about the Mullin hire from beginning to the end.

He didn't know what the job entailed, beyond the x's and o's stuff, nor how to do it. Knew from the start it was a disaster waiting to happen especially as the staff was assembled. A mix of inexperience and a bag man with no bags. Still the greatest STJ player of course and should be honored as such.

That said Mahoney and Jarvis would lead my hindsight is 20/20 list as worst hires as well as I would take into account expectations vs. results. What they inherited vs. what they left behind in their wake.
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Didn't Mahoney leave more than what he inherited ? Felipe Zendon ?
 
mjmaherjr said:
Didn't Mahoney leave more than what he inherited ? Felipe Zendon ?
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I'm talking about the general state of the program, not specific players. His first year was his best, but there was a lot of Lou carryover in the players, effort and coaching. After that losing seasons, losing attitude.
 
I'm talking about game strategy, no idea when or who to substitute, when to call a timeout (especially at the end of the game when you have a chance to win), basic clock management, I can go on if you want. Plus, even though a lot of people characterized him as a nice guy?

Norm
Norm
Norm
Norm
Norm
Norm
Norm
 
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austour said:
I'm talking about the general state of the program, not specific players. His first year was his best, but there was a lot of Lou carryover in the players, effort and coaching. After that losing seasons, losing attitude.
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If he could have recruited a Boo Harvey or Barkley type to go with Felipe and Zendon, he might still be here. That was his biggest failing. Looked great with David Cain.
 
austour said:
I'm talking about the general state of the program, not specific players. His first year was his best, but there was a lot of Lou carryover in the players, effort and coaching. After that losing seasons, losing attitude.
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People did think at the tine that when Lou retired, Mahoney was left with a bad team. His first season was a big surprise.
 
Just a sad thread in light of the year the team is having. The hypocrisy of this fan base, like all fan bases, is clear when posters come on insisting Lavin’s shortcomings should be understood and treated with kid gloves due to his personal situations (taking opinions from other threads) but Mullin’s should be vilified, ignoring different but similar circumstances.
One other Mullin point; his background after retiring was as an administrator, not a hands on coach; for better or worse, that’s what he did, proving Austor’s IMO, that he didn’t understand the job nor how to do it.
 
Almost 16 years ago the Johnnies were blown out by Syracuse at MSG by over 25 from what i recall. During the game the cheer squad threw 6th man t shiirts into the stand the Cuse fans threw the shirts back on to the garden floor and subsequently chanted Lets go Orange. The crowd was 75/25 Syracuse advantage. The chant was loud, obnoxious, deafening.

To me that single moment was the worst feeling as a lifelong sju fan,alumnus, to be embarrased, insulted and shamed on your home court was worse than the Pitt scandal and ensuing fallout.

The insult was visceral, real, in your face. Norm’s team failed to compete, it was a timid, scared, unprepared, deer in the headlights embarrasment of an effort that night and that season.

That moment crystalized how far the program had fallen more than anything else. February 24,2009 the worst moment in sju hoops history.


After that debacle Norm was able to squander another year out of SJU and the great Fr Donald J Harrington.
 
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RedmanMike said:
I'm a sucker for topics like this. A few thoughts...

Mahoney was definitely the best recruiter of the post-Louie group, followed by Lavin. It's a pretty big drop off after that. Mullin would actually rank pretty highly for recruiting if you take transfers into consideration.

And I agree completely that Lavin should get credit for making some very basic changes in his first year - foremost among them letting Hardy play PG full-time. That was the biggest difference, and it led to a terrific season.

I'd rank them this way:

1. Lavin
2. Fran
3. Jarvis
4. Anderson
5. Mullin
6. Mahoney
7. Norm
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Jarvii will always be the worst IMO. Coaches should be the leader. And when he said to a player, Gray?, that he didnt care if he lived or died. Meaning he didnt care at all about him, thats when I lost any respect for him.

Norm was just bad HC and in a terrible situation after Pittsburg. But I dont consider him a bad person. I consider Jarvii a bad person.
 
My opinion on Jarvis goes back and forth. You cannot take away that he did a great job with Fran's players, and we were an elite team his first two years. He gets credit for that, and honestly can anyone say that Fran himself would have done as well with that group? I have my doubts. And I think some people forget what a great coaching job he did to get 20 wins and an NCAA berth out of Marcus Hatten and the island of misfit toys.
But Hatten's greatness for two years masked Jarvis' deficiencies and the program's decline - his arrogance and laziness and the fact that he alienated every HS coach east of the Mississippi. By the end, the program was in a shambles. At that point, it was the perfect storm - lazy arrogant coach, a part time AD, and a clueless and arrogant president. Then came Norm...

As I've said before, had we hired Bob McKillop instead of Norm, we would right now be coming off of twenty years of watching excellent basketball instead of twenty years in the wilderrness, cycling through mediocre coaches every four years.
 
RedmanMike said:
My opinion on Jarvis goes back and forth. You cannot take away that he did a great job with Fran's players, and we were an elite team his first two years. He gets credit for that, and honestly can anyone say that Fran himself would have done as well with that group? I have my doubts. And I think some people forget what a great coaching job he did to get 20 wins and an NCAA berth out of Marcus Hatten and the island of misfit toys.
But Hatten's greatness for two years masked Jarvis' deficiencies and the program's decline - his arrogance and laziness and the fact that he alienated every HS coach east of the Mississippi. By the end, the program was in a shambles. At that point, it was the perfect storm - lazy arrogant coach, a part time AD, and a clueless and arrogant president. Then came Norm...

As I've said before, had we hired Bob McKillop instead of Norm, we would right now be coming off of twenty years of watching excellent basketball instead of twenty years in the wilderrness, cycling through mediocre coaches every four years.
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But McKillop couldn't recruit 125th Street 😁
 
gcjohnny said:
And we can always compare Chris favorably to Ewing at least. I mean Ewing nearly ground that program to dust. That miracle BE run they had which resulted in tourney birth was worst thing for them.
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I don't think Mullin's coaching tenure tarnishes his St. John's legacy, but it did to Ewing at Georgetown. The inexperience in running the program, the lack of awareness as to where it was all heading, and the amount of money it cost to end his contract really soured people under a certain age to him.
 
Not sure how people could in good faith claim Norm was a better coach than anyone ever let alone the 2nd most successful ST John’s coach of my lifetime.
 
SJU Double Alumn said:
Good second half adjustments by Anderson tonight.
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P
RedmanMike said:
Then came Norm...

As I've said before, had we hired Bob McKillop instead of Norm, we would right now be coming off of twenty years of watching excellent basketball instead of twenty years in the wilderrness, cycling through mediocre coaches every four years.
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You can say it all you want and repeat it over and over, but it is all pure conjecture on your part. He didn’t get the job nor did he get any other high major job. Those are facts , is every other AD wrong.
Would he have been a better coach than Norm , than Lavin, than Mullin, I believe so, but that is not really saying much. Each of those 3 had a very low bar. Is Bob M a great guy, a fan of the program, a good mid major coach , you bet.
But at this level you need players together with the coach, case in point where would we be with no Kadary Richmond ? We would have a great coach but would be lacking our star.
In the end of the day it doesn’t matter he was never our coach so you can dream all you want.
 
I’m not sure what your point is. You apparently agree that McKillop is a better coach than every coach we had between Carnesecca and Pitino (and that’s not even debatable) yet you seem annoyed. The point isn’t whether or not we’d have Kadary today, but rather that the St. John’s program would have been immeasurably better and this would have been a much better job - and we wouldn’t have needed a Hall of Fame coach to perform a miracle to resuscitate it. If you’re annoyed by my mentioning that, you have my deepest and most sincere apologies.
 
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