Steve Lavin, Suits, Ties, and Dressing the Part

[otis]

I think that the posters that are keeping this thread going are beating a dead horse.

There are seemingly no posters on this site that still think the the Tan TV announcer was successful at StJohn's. No one defends him anymore. Pretty much everyone acknowledges that Lavin was unsuccessful in laying the foundation for a long terms successful program. President Bobby G fired the Tan TV announcer.

Not much more needs to be said. It is time to move on.

Beat Syracuse.

 

[sirvoo]

I think that the posters that are keeping this thread going are beating a dead horse.

There are seemingly no posters on this site that still think the the Tan TV announcer was successful at StJohn's. No one defends him anymore. Pretty much everyone acknowledges that Lavin was unsuccessful in laying the foundation for a long terms successful program. President Bobby G fired the Tan TV announcer.

Not much more needs to be said. It is time to move on.

Beat Syracuse.

Fair enough but he probably coached UCLA 15 years ago and they're still bashing him out there. Safe to assume this won't stop for a very long time

 

[SI1996]

Some people can dress certain ways and it fits depending on their personality. You always felt Lavin was a suit guy because he was hollywood. His choice to continue to dress further down as the years went on felt like more of a sign of how he felt about the job, rather than his personality.

Bob Huggins can wear a sweat suit because you can tell that's fully his personality and it's always been his personality.

Mullin I'll reserve judgement on for the time being except to say that the man's personality seems like he has an itch to be in the gym always and still has a players personality. In some of the videos and photos from Taffner you see him in flip flops and basketball socks, which is a popular look for basketball players around the locker room after practice or in between AAU games, so I think that is more of his personality.

Lavin is a pretty laid back guy. I think you are getting this whole hollywood thing from lavinwood because most people I know on the west coast are pretty laid back. I'm not even sure if Traczok owns a pair of sneakers because he is always in flip flops out there and he's a lawyer

So you can't hold Lavin to a hollywood standard and mullin not when they both come from the west coast. Lavin even more so.

This whole dress thing is so blown out of proportion it's crazy. Except for the big east media dat which I agree with desco on

+1.. insane

 

[we are sju]

I think that the posters that are keeping this thread going are beating a dead horse.

There are seemingly no posters on this site that still think the the Tan TV announcer was successful at StJohn's. No one defends him anymore. Pretty much everyone acknowledges that Lavin was unsuccessful in laying the foundation for a long terms successful program. President Bobby G fired the Tan TV announcer.

Not much more needs to be said. It is time to move on.

Beat Syracuse.

No offense, but I never understood these complaints. This thread is 5 pages long and it has been civil, so why question it. We are not going to get blown out until Sunday and Lovett HOPEFULLY can't be cleared until next week. What else should we talk about? Even in your post about how we should let this go you took shots at Lavin, so clearly you are not ready to let it go either.
For my part, I find it fascinating that of all the coaches since Louie, Lavin seems to conjure the most hatred outside of Jarvis.

 

[fun]

Did you want Lavin replaced no matter who was going to replace him? See I was not at that point.

I was at that point three years ago.

 

[we are sju]

Did you want Lavin replaced no matter who was going to replace him? See I was not at that point.

I was at that point three years ago.

So basically he just rubbed you the wrong way, because you defended Norm until the end. Sorry I keep bringing Norm back up in tandem with Lavin, but considering their respective records here I think it is worth comparing.
I am really starting to wish I had known Norm on a personal level because, he must have been one hell of a guy for people to keep overlooking what was happening on the court.

As far as I am concerned I would back Calipari, Pol Pot, or Charles Manson if they came here and won. That is just me I guess.

 

[fun]

No offense, but I never understood these complaints. This thread is 5 pages long and it has been civil, so why question it. We are not going to get blown out until Sunday and Lovett HOPEFULLY can't be cleared until next week. Even in your post about how we should let this go you took shots at Lavin, so clearly you are not ready to let it go either.
For my part I find it fascinating that of all the coaches since Louie, Lavin seems to conjure the most hatred outside of Jarvis.

There are on the internet a billion web pages with a trillion threads but this one they don't find interesting and so therefore you should STFU. Well guess what. I don't find lots of stuff interesting: the 2018 recruiting class for example, and lobster rolls, and lacrosse, and the women's team and Mike Rice and almost anything anyone who has "Red" in their name has to say about college basketball. But I don't try to dissuade other people from discussing these things if they find them interesting, because I'm not a petty fascist wannabe.

 

[mjmaherjr]

No offense, but I never understood these complaints. This thread is 5 pages long and it has been civil, so why question it. We are not going to get blown out until Sunday and Lovett HOPEFULLY can't be cleared until next week. Even in your post about how we should let this go you took shots at Lavin, so clearly you are not ready to let it go either.
For my part I find it fascinating that of all the coaches since Louie, Lavin seems to conjure the most hatred outside of Jarvis.

There are on the internet a billion web pages with a trillion threads but this one they don't find interesting and so therefore you should STFU. Well guess what. I don't find lots of stuff interesting: the 2018 recruiting class for example, and lobster rolls, and lacrosse, and the women's team and Mike Rice and almost anything anyone who has "Red" in their name has to say about college basketball. But I don't try to dissuade other people from discussing these things if they find them interesting, because I'm not a petty fascist wannabe.

damn fun used to be one of my favorite posters until he just knocked lobster rolls

 

[fun]

So basically he just rubbed you the wrong way, because you defended Norm until the end. Sorry I keep bringing Norm back up in tandem with Lavin, but considering their respective records here I think it is worth comparing.
I am really starting to wish I had known Norm on a personal level because, he must have been one hell of a guy for people to keep overlooking what was happening on the court.

As far as I am concerned I would back Calipari, Pol Pot, or Charles Manson if they came here and won. That is just me I guess.

It would be foolish of me to deny that I loathe Lavin. But I didn't start out that way and I didn't get there because he was an awful coach. I could live with losing, I have for 40 years now. What really got to me was how pleased he was with himself for being clever enough to fool the rubes into thinking he didn't suck. Which he did.

And I don't consider myself a Norm defender. He was clearly out of his depth and should never have been considered as a candidate for head coach in the Big East. He was - and I still think this today - not as bad as he seemed, considering the circumstances. Did you know that when Norm was offered the job was of his conditions was that SJU hire a dedicated strength and conditioning coach? I'm guessing his hall of fame competitors Jim Boeheim, Rick Pitino, Bob Huggins, and Jay Wright already had one of those. When Lavin was hired one of his conditions was that they give Gene Keady a 250K no show job so he'd have someone to go to Rao's with. It was a whole different world.

What I did was challenge people who attacked Norm. Because much of what people said about him was simply not true. And I still have that impulse. Like even now, when you said earlier in this thread that Lavin deserves credit for playing Hardy and Brownlee his first year I say to myself, well, the year before the 25 extra minutes that went to those two a year later went to Mason Jr, Norm's only senior. Next year those minutes would have had to go somewhere. Look:

(Norm) (Lavin)
DJ 31/29
Horne 28/28
Burrell 20/21
Boothe 25/19/(-6)
Evans 21/12 (-8)
Stith 11/12

Mason Jr 24/0 (-24)

Hardy 22/34 (+12)
Brownlee 18/30 (+12)
Polee 0 /15 (+15)

Mason's minutes went to the JUCOs and Boothe and Evans to Polee. That could be evidence of coaching acumen or it could be what anyone else would have done, even Norm. I suppose Norm could have given those 25 minutes to Cameron Edison, or played DJ and Horne 40 minutes a game but that seems unlikely to me. So I don't see where Lavin is deserving of too much credit.

I consider that more correcting the record than defending Norm. Like when some people give Mark Jackson too much credit as a freshman PG, it's important to note that as an underclassman Mark Jackson was pretty out of control and senior Mike Moses was a pretty good ball player. Because you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

 

[beast of the east]

Just get me there, I am a ST John's fan. You start winning one NCAA game a year and you are moving into Louie territory.

Question.

Which would you choose? Head coach Norm Roberts with Lavin's staff and players or head coach Steve Lavin with Norm's staff and players?

Choice number 3

Honestly, based purely on Norm's lack of recognition of how good Hardy and Brownlee were I would take Lavin coaching Norm's last year's team.

Norm touted himself on being a big time recruiter and that he could rebuild the program that way, supposedly having been the lead recruiter at Kansas. Overall, Lavin brought in greater talent. No one has had trouble recruiting at UCLA, including Lavin, but at least he showed he could bring in NBA level talent - something Norm could not. Neither was a very good game coach, but I'd take Lavin by a mile over Norm in that regard. Also, people speak of cleaning up the program as if it were like cleaning up mob infiltrated unions. As soon as Jarvis was gone, the stench left also.

 

[we are sju]

So basically he just rubbed you the wrong way, because you defended Norm until the end. Sorry I keep bringing Norm back up in tandem with Lavin, but considering their respective records here I think it is worth comparing.
I am really starting to wish I had known Norm on a personal level because, he must have been one hell of a guy for people to keep overlooking what was happening on the court.

As far as I am concerned I would back Calipari, Pol Pot, or Charles Manson if they came here and won. That is just me I guess.

It would be foolish of me to deny that I loathe Lavin. But I didn't start out that way and I didn't get there because he was an awful coach. I could live with losing, I have for 40 years now. What really got to me was how pleased he was with himself for being clever enough to fool the rubes into thinking he didn't suck. Which he did.

And I don't consider myself a Norm defender. He was clearly out of his depth and should never have been considered as a candidate for head coach in the Big East. He was - and I still think this today - not as bad as he seemed, considering the circumstances. Did you know that when Norm was offered the job was of his conditions was that SJU hire a dedicated strength and conditioning coach? I'm guessing his hall of fame competitors Jim Boeheim, Rick Pitino, Bob Huggins, and Jay Wright already had one of those. When Lavin was hired one of his conditions was that they give Gene Keady a 250K no show job so he'd have someone to go to Rao's with. It was a whole different world.

What I did was challenge people who attacked Norm. Because much of what people said about him was simply not true. And I still have that impulse. Like even now, when you said earlier in this thread that Lavin deserves credit for playing Hardy and Brownlee his first year I say to myself, well, the year before the 25 extra minutes that went to those two a year later went to Mason Jr, Norm's only senior. Next year those minutes would have had to go somewhere. Look:

(Norm) (Lavin)
DJ 31/29
Horne 28/28
Burrell 20/21
Boothe 25/19/(-6)
Evans 21/12 (-8)
Stith 11/12

Mason Jr 24/0 (-24)

Hardy 22/34 (+12)
Brownlee 18/30 (+12)
Polee 0 /15 (+15)

Mason's minutes went to the JUCOs and Boothe and Evans to Polee. That could be evidence of coaching acumen or it could be what anyone else would have done, even Norm. I suppose Norm could have given those 25 minutes to Cameron Edison, or played DJ and Horne 40 minutes a game but that seems unlikely to me. So I don't see where Lavin is deserving of too much credit.

I consider that more correcting the record than defending Norm. Like when some people give Mark Jackson too much credit as a freshman PG, it's important to note that as an underclassman Mark Jackson was pretty out of control and senior Mike Moses was a pretty good ball player. Because you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Based on his bizarre rotations and propensity to oddly play walkons and guys who had previously been designated to redshirt I agree the Hardy / Brownlee thing was just good timing, blind luck or some combination of both. But he still gets credit for that. Same way Mahoney gets credit for his first team.

In regards to Jackson thing, I was 11 so you have to take that with a grain of salt. However at the time and memory of it still stays with me I was much happier when he played as opposed to Moses who I was not a fan of. Considering how their careers turned out I do stand by if Jackson was given the team as a Soph, you would have seen a similar year that he turned in one year later. We will have to continue to disagree on that I guess

 

[Ray Morgan]

Just get me there, I am a ST John's fan. You start winning one NCAA game a year and you are moving into Louie territory.

Question.

Which would you choose? Head coach Norm Roberts with Lavin's staff and players or head coach Steve Lavin with Norm's staff and players?

Choice number 3

Honestly, based purely on Norm's lack of recognition of how good Hardy and Brownlee were I would take Lavin coaching Norm's last year's team.

Norm touted himself on being a big time recruiter and that he could rebuild the program that way, supposedly having been the lead recruiter at Kansas. Overall, Lavin brought in greater talent. No one has had trouble recruiting at UCLA, including Lavin, but at least he showed he could bring in NBA level talent - something Norm could not. Neither was a very good game coach, but I'd take Lavin by a mile over Norm in that regard. Also, people speak of cleaning up the program as if it were like cleaning up mob infiltrated unions. As soon as Jarvis was gone, the stench left also.

When Jarvis left the stench was gone? Maybe his personal stench, but not the program stench. That began on that night in Pittsburgh, after Jarvis was gone. Norm had to recruit with the pungent aroma of some sanctions and tremendous scrutiny, not the least of which was from Father Harrington. He was a stopgap hire that was there to run a clean program because he was so grateful just to have a high major head coaching job. He struck out on every major recruit, but at least he fielded a team that Lavin, with Dunlap's help, ultimately benefited from. Lavin recruited NBA talent, and got little out of them except except a few disappearing acts by Jordan, a few brawls started by Dom, and a nice elbow to the head by Obekpa, after which he got his head set in the privacy of his dorm just in time for the NCAA tourney. I think these threads on Lavin continue because of what he left behind, or better put didn't leave behind. Except his prized European vacation recruit, an athletic guard who can actually play a little whom he stole a year from, and Christian Jones, who showed more under a few months under Mullin than he did in a few seasons under the other fellow.

 

[beast of the east]

So basically he just rubbed you the wrong way, because you defended Norm until the end. Sorry I keep bringing Norm back up in tandem with Lavin, but considering their respective records here I think it is worth comparing.
I am really starting to wish I had known Norm on a personal level because, he must have been one hell of a guy for people to keep overlooking what was happening on the court.

As far as I am concerned I would back Calipari, Pol Pot, or Charles Manson if they came here and won. That is just me I guess.

It would be foolish of me to deny that I loathe Lavin. But I didn't start out that way and I didn't get there because he was an awful coach. I could live with losing, I have for 40 years now. What really got to me was how pleased he was with himself for being clever enough to fool the rubes into thinking he didn't suck. Which he did.

And I don't consider myself a Norm defender. He was clearly out of his depth and should never have been considered as a candidate for head coach in the Big East. He was - and I still think this today - not as bad as he seemed, considering the circumstances. Did you know that when Norm was offered the job was of his conditions was that SJU hire a dedicated strength and conditioning coach? I'm guessing his hall of fame competitors Jim Boeheim, Rick Pitino, Bob Huggins, and Jay Wright already had one of those. When Lavin was hired one of his conditions was that they give Gene Keady a 250K no show job so he'd have someone to go to Rao's with. It was a whole different world.

What I did was challenge people who attacked Norm. Because much of what people said about him was simply not true. And I still have that impulse. Like even now, when you said earlier in this thread that Lavin deserves credit for playing Hardy and Brownlee his first year I say to myself, well, the year before the 25 extra minutes that went to those two a year later went to Mason Jr, Norm's only senior. Next year those minutes would have had to go somewhere. Look:

(Norm) (Lavin)
DJ 31/29
Horne 28/28
Burrell 20/21
Boothe 25/19/(-6)
Evans 21/12 (-8)
Stith 11/12

Mason Jr 24/0 (-24)

Hardy 22/34 (+12)
Brownlee 18/30 (+12)
Polee 0 /15 (+15)

Mason's minutes went to the JUCOs and Boothe and Evans to Polee. That could be evidence of coaching acumen or it could be what anyone else would have done, even Norm. I suppose Norm could have given those 25 minutes to Cameron Edison, or played DJ and Horne 40 minutes a game but that seems unlikely to me. So I don't see where Lavin is deserving of too much credit.

I consider that more correcting the record than defending Norm. Like when some people give Mark Jackson too much credit as a freshman PG, it's important to note that as an underclassman Mark Jackson was pretty out of control and senior Mike Moses was a pretty good ball player. Because you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

This is DocButler type of analysis, only he was endorsed by Richard Lapchick. At least Butler showed evidence that he was watching the game itself and not just reading combined stats.

Stith and Boothe split nearly all the minutes at the point in Norm's world, and DJ was a focal point of the offense.

the team took off when Hardy was shifted to the point, a risky move considering he wasn't a point at all. You can't speculate that Norm would have done so, because Norm didn't play Hardy at the point at all, and favored undersized, less than talented point guards like Boothe and Eugene Lawrence, who reminded Norm of Norm the player.

If anything, some of Mason's minutes went to Polee, a similar player. It was largely speculated that Lavin promised Polee he would be a starter in his recruitment, and when it was clear he wasn't ready for that, Lavin lived up to his word, but yanked him early.

Brownlee's minutes came largely out of the appropriate benching of Sean Evans, who was a bull in a china shop.

More than that, though, Kennedy was shifted from the marquee slot to the third option and had perhaps his best season, although he who is critical of Doc Butler would immediately pour through stats to dispute that. Of course, you do that when you have no idea what you are watching.

 

[salty dog]

So basically he just rubbed you the wrong way, because you defended Norm until the end. Sorry I keep bringing Norm back up in tandem with Lavin, but considering their respective records here I think it is worth comparing.
I am really starting to wish I had known Norm on a personal level because, he must have been one hell of a guy for people to keep overlooking what was happening on the court.

As far as I am concerned I would back Calipari, Pol Pot, or Charles Manson if they came here and won. That is just me I guess.

It would be foolish of me to deny that I loathe Lavin. But I didn't start out that way and I didn't get there because he was an awful coach. I could live with losing, I have for 40 years now. What really got to me was how pleased he was with himself for being clever enough to fool the rubes into thinking he didn't suck. Which he did.

And I don't consider myself a Norm defender. He was clearly out of his depth and should never have been considered as a candidate for head coach in the Big East. He was - and I still think this today - not as bad as he seemed, considering the circumstances. Did you know that when Norm was offered the job was of his conditions was that SJU hire a dedicated strength and conditioning coach? I'm guessing his hall of fame competitors Jim Boeheim, Rick Pitino, Bob Huggins, and Jay Wright already had one of those. When Lavin was hired one of his conditions was that they give Gene Keady a 250K no show job so he'd have someone to go to Rao's with. It was a whole different world.

What I did was challenge people who attacked Norm. Because much of what people said about him was simply not true. And I still have that impulse. Like even now, when you said earlier in this thread that Lavin deserves credit for playing Hardy and Brownlee his first year I say to myself, well, the year before the 25 extra minutes that went to those two a year later went to Mason Jr, Norm's only senior. Next year those minutes would have had to go somewhere. Look:

(Norm) (Lavin)
DJ 31/29
Horne 28/28
Burrell 20/21
Boothe 25/19/(-6)
Evans 21/12 (-8)
Stith 11/12

Mason Jr 24/0 (-24)

Hardy 22/34 (+12)
Brownlee 18/30 (+12)
Polee 0 /15 (+15)

Mason's minutes went to the JUCOs and Boothe and Evans to Polee. That could be evidence of coaching acumen or it could be what anyone else would have done, even Norm. I suppose Norm could have given those 25 minutes to Cameron Edison, or played DJ and Horne 40 minutes a game but that seems unlikely to me. So I don't see where Lavin is deserving of too much credit.

I consider that more correcting the record than defending Norm. Like when some people give Mark Jackson too much credit as a freshman PG, it's important to note that as an underclassman Mark Jackson was pretty out of control and senior Mike Moses was a pretty good ball player. Because you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

Based on his bizarre rotations and propensity to oddly play walkons and guys who had previously been designated to redshirt I agree the Hardy / Brownlee thing was just good timing, blind luck or some combination of both. But he still gets credit for that. Same way Mahoney gets credit for his first team.

In regards to Jackson thing, I was 11 so you have to take that with a grain of salt. However at the time and memory of it still stays with me I was much happier when he played as opposed to Moses who I was not a fan of. Considering how their careers turned out I do stand by if Jackson was given the team as a Soph, you would have seen a similar year that he turned in one year later. We will have to continue to disagree on that I guess

you are probably right on that as Looie had Bob Kelly playing ahead of six year NBA player Kevin Williams.
Many times coaches are blind on talent.

 

[fun]

Of course, you do that when you have no idea what you are watching.

Well, I certainly wasn't watching putative starting PG Larry Washington, that's for sure.

 

[beast of the east]

Just get me there, I am a ST John's fan. You start winning one NCAA game a year and you are moving into Louie territory.

Question.

Which would you choose? Head coach Norm Roberts with Lavin's staff and players or head coach Steve Lavin with Norm's staff and players?

Choice number 3

Honestly, based purely on Norm's lack of recognition of how good Hardy and Brownlee were I would take Lavin coaching Norm's last year's team.

Norm touted himself on being a big time recruiter and that he could rebuild the program that way, supposedly having been the lead recruiter at Kansas. Overall, Lavin brought in greater talent. No one has had trouble recruiting at UCLA, including Lavin, but at least he showed he could bring in NBA level talent - something Norm could not. Neither was a very good game coach, but I'd take Lavin by a mile over Norm in that regard. Also, people speak of cleaning up the program as if it were like cleaning up mob infiltrated unions. As soon as Jarvis was gone, the stench left also.

When Jarvis left the stench was gone? Maybe his personal stench, but not the program stench. That began on that night in Pittsburgh, after Jarvis was gone. Norm had to recruit with the pungent aroma of some sanctions and tremendous scrutiny, not the least of which was from Father Harrington. He was a stopgap hire that was there to run a clean program because he was so grateful just to have a high major head coaching job. He struck out on every major recruit, but at least he fielded a team that Lavin, with Dunlap's help, ultimately benefited from. Lavin recruited NBA talent, and got little out of them except except a few disappearing acts by Jordan, a few brawls started by Dom, and a nice elbow to the head by Obekpa, after which he got his head set in the privacy of his dorm just in time for the NCAA tourney. I think these threads on Lavin continue because of what he left behind, or better put didn't leave behind. Except his prized European vacation recruit, an athletic guard who can actually play a little whom he stole a year from, and Christian Jones, who showed more under a few months under Mullin than he did in a few seasons under the other fellow.

Pitt happened because the school was too cheap to hire a temporary staff, and there was not enough oversight on the road. Not because of anything Jarvis did, or his successor.

Would you have guessed CO would turn out to be a knucklehead? Even so, people here were still on his side when it looked like he would return for senior season. His stupid suspension likely came out of the lack of knowledge that you can still test positive for marijuana 30 days after using it. I doubt he was the only one on the team who ever smoked. Harkless, Sampson, Jordan, Obekpa, Harrison, Pointer, Greene were all considerably better than what Norm produced overall.

Before you continue the myth that Norm was great at cleaning up the program, he also went after headaches like Stephenson - so he wasn't exactly recruiting altar boys - he just took whatever he could. I don't remember any public disclosure that he had passed on anyone. If Lavin passed on Jordan and CO, other big programs would have grabbed them

 

[beast of the east]

Of course, you do that when you have no idea what you are watching.

Well, I certainly wasn't watching putative starting PG Larry Washington, that's for sure.

Actually since you graduated in 1978, you likely weren't there, and you certainly weren't ever a part of the large student section behind the baskets. Washington was put in Carnesecca's doghouse early, but the student section was largely in favor of Washington starting over Kelly. I don't remember Garrison playing the point, and if Williams ever did, he played as a 2 guard in spot point minutes. If you ever saw Washington play, you would have know why fans who were watching favored Washington over the plodding Kelly.

Now, go back into chambers.

 

[fun]

you graduated in 1978

Actually I was in high school in 1978, grading your pharmacy exams.

 

[fun]

Based on his bizarre rotations and propensity to oddly play walkons and guys who had previously been designated to redshirt I agree the Hardy / Brownlee thing was just good timing, blind luck or some combination of both. But he still gets credit for that. Same way Mahoney gets credit for his first team.

In retrospect maybe the Hardy Brownlee thing was the worst thing that could have happened. Lavin was forever chasing that same lightening in the bottle, playing hunches and having premonitions, as opposed to, you know, working.

 

[we are sju]

Of course, you do that when you have no idea what you are watching.

Well, I certainly wasn't watching putative starting PG Larry Washington, that's for sure.

Actually since you graduated in 1978, you likely weren't there, and you certainly weren't ever a part of the large student section behind the baskets. Washington was put in Carnesecca's doghouse early, but the student section was largely in favor of Washington starting over Kelly. I don't remember Garrison playing the point, and if Williams ever did, he played as a 2 guard in spot point minutes. If you ever saw Washington play, you would have know why fans who were watching favored Washington over the plodding Kelly.

Now, go back into chambers.

Don't want to get in the middle of you and Fun's thing here but Williams though not a point guard def played point guard at times. Now you are talking about my first two years as a fan. But just from my recollection Wennington and Allen split time at Center. David Russell was the four. Mullin and Goodwin played the 2/ 3. Kelly started but Williams came in for him and basically split the time at the point.