So Far

I agree with most of what you posted. Nuri is our best and most exciting player.After 5 games his play has been dissected on these boards so much that he might break Burrell's topic record. I do take issue with your saying Hatten and Sealy couldn't shoot. Hatten wasn't a classic shooter but Nuri makes him look like Rick Mount. Sealy had a pretty 15 foot jumper. He just did not extend to three point range. Glass gets a pass from not shooting well becuase he was the best dunker in school history and no one should ever be compared to Berry who I seem to remember could walk on water and he was a power forward anyway. I really like Nuri but I am not sure at this point he can develop a serviceable jumper. I think if he can get to around 70% from the line, get better at dishing off in traffic and maybe develop a little tear drop shot he could be great. Flawed now but fun to watch. 
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It's nice to see you slumming.

Obviously I wasn't comparing Berry and Lindsey, except to point out the obvious: that not every player has the same skill set and not all skill sets are necessary for success. He's by far the best player on the team and will be until Harkless surpasses him. No one would be talking about his jump shot but that he missed those two free throws. Is he a good shooter? Seemingly not. Would it be nice of he shot like Mullin, yes, but it'd be nice if they all did.

Regarding Hatten, he was a worse 3 point shooter by percentage as your 2 favorite players, Geno and Mason Jr. Is that what you meant by classic?
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Very boring work day.

Hatten shot a lot so his % was going to suffer. He was streaky but he did not have a bad shot. Again I like watching Nuri but he doesn't even pretend like he can shoot and his form at the line is a mess. David Cain had a very ugly jumper but he hit just enough to keep the defense honest. Nuri can get into the lane at will so instead of drawing charges or worse going to the line :) if he could learn that little Mark Jackson tear drop he would be even more dangerous.Nuri also needs to get better at the drive and dish game which would also benefit GG. I think he can be an effective passer along the line of Rod Strickland in drawing defenders than passing off.  
 
Without Nurideen Lindsey this team would be 1-4, and we'd be looking at an extremely grim season.

Instead we are 3-2 and were in two games against nationally ranked competition, in large part because of Lindsey. Even with 6 (soon to hopefully be 7) newcomers, it looks like the season will be anything but grim.

In a certain way I'm glad we are dissecting the minutia of a very talented player's game (Lindsey), because it is evidence of the progress this program has made. In recent years we could barely get to such an analysis becasue we were too busy constantly bemoaning the sad state of the program generally. This is a much more interesting conversation.

At the same time, we need to wait until the sample size is greater than five to make some of the declarations that are being made. Not just Lindsey. After the first exhibition, it was announced that Phil Greene was a good shooter. Then after the first three regular season games he was a bad shooter. Now after two games at the Garden he's a good shooter again. After the first few games Gift was a one-man wrecking crew. Now he's a guy who can dominate smaller competition but will be a non-factor against major-conference foes. Harrison isn't the shooter he was advertised to be. On and on. This is all going to change when these kids play more than 5 games.

Ditto Lindsey. He may very well end up being a serviceable (or better) free throw shooter. Might keep defenses honest by knocking down open jumpshots. Just because he hasnt through 5 games doesn't mean he won't. And even if he doesn't, you can't teach his ability to get to the rim (and finish) as well as his instincts on both ends of the floor, which is a major reason why his total stat line is as complete (outside of FT/3PT%) as you could ask from a 6'3" guard.
 
Without Nurideen Lindsey this team would be 1-4, and we'd be looking at an extremely grim season.

Instead we are 3-2 and were in two games against nationally ranked competition, in large part because of Lindsey. Even with 6 (soon to hopefully be 7) newcomers, it looks like the season will be anything but grim.

In a certain way I'm glad we are dissecting the minutia of a very talented player's game (Lindsey), because it is evidence of the progress this program has made. In recent years we could barely get to such an analysis becasue we were too busy constantly bemoaning the sad state of the program generally. This is a much more interesting conversation.

At the same time, we need to wait until the sample size is greater than five to make some of the declarations that are being made. Not just Lindsey. After the first exhibition, it was announced that Phil Greene was a good shooter. Then after the first three regular season games he was a bad shooter. Now after two games at the Garden he's a good shooter again. After the first few games Gift was a one-man wrecking crew. Now he's a guy who can dominate smaller competition but will be a non-factor against major-conference foes. Harrison isn't the shooter he was advertised to be. On and on. This is all going to change when these kids play more than 5 games.

Ditto Lindsey. He may very well end up being a serviceable (or better) free throw shooter. Might keep defenses honest by knocking down open jumpshots. Just because he hasnt through 5 games doesn't mean he won't. And even if he doesn't, you can't teach his ability to get to the rim (and finish) as well as his instincts on both ends of the floor, which is a major reason why his total stat line is as complete (outside of FT/3PT%) as you could ask from a 6'3" guard.
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Good post
 
And even if he doesn't, you can't teach his ability to get to the rim (and finish) as well as his instincts on both ends of the floor, which is a major reason why his total stat line is as complete (outside of FT/3PT%) as you could ask from a 6'3" guard.
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That last point really rings true.

The end of the Texas A & M game. There was about 6 seconds left, and we had to go fullcourt. Some didn't like letting Lindsey have the ball there, but who else on our team is going to break down the defense like that, and put us in position for a good shot like that? The answer is no one, that's who, and he did it in 3 and a half seconds, to boot. Anybody else with the ball in the backcourt for us, and it's prayer thrown up at the buzzer, most likley. Bottom line is that he still put us in the best position to win, it's just unfortunate that he didn't come through.
 
 So far..... after seriously reading all posts on this thread I have to say some people just don't know basketball. They also don't know how to keep their mouths shut before sticking their own foot in it. Norm's team under the 1 year that Lavin coached it was a complete 360 in juicing every ounce of talent from it. Norm couldn't do it and wasn't ever going too. Alot of those guys are now enjoying professional careers with the opportunity of making the NBA down the road under Lavin's 1 year of instruction along with his coaching staff.

Now what I have seen from this team is a whole lot more heart then last year's team. To not like Nuri's game thus far is ubsurd! If Nuri is out then the offense should go through Mo! The games we are losing is because of lack of depth and nothing else. Take Nuri out for a few more minutes too which he would have less fouls and we would've won the Arizona game. Another capable player against A&M and we would've won that one as well.

Our losses were not bad just some of the contributing factors that caused them too which has been discussed in detail thus far from alot of posts from the stat guru's. I agree with many that with Amir at the very leaast we can make noise but with Pelle on top of that we will sky rocket into the top 25 within a few short games thereafter! The teams that I saw were just scared and petrified to defend Nuri because he was taking it to the hole and breaking them down at will!
 
 So far..... after seriously reading all posts on this thread I have to say some people just don't know basketball. They also don't know how to keep their mouths shut before sticking their own foot in it. Norm's team under the 1 year that Lavin coached it was a complete 360 in juicing every ounce of talent from it. Norm couldn't do it and wasn't ever going too. Alot of those guys are now enjoying professional careers with the opportunity of making the NBA down the road under Lavin's 1 year of instruction along with his coaching staff.

Now what I have seen from this team is a whole lot more heart then last year's team. To not like Nuri's game thus far is ubsurd! If Nuri is out then the offense should go through Mo! The games we are losing is because of lack of depth and nothing else. Take Nuri out for a few more minutes too which he would have less fouls and we would've won the Arizona game. Another capable player against A&M and we would've won that one as well.

Our losses were not bad just some of the contributing factors that caused them too which has been discussed in detail thus far from alot of posts from the stat guru's. I agree with many that with Amir at the very leaast we can make noise but with Pelle on top of that we will sky rocket into the top 25 within a few short games thereafter! The teams that I saw were just scared and petrified to defend Nuri because he was taking it to the hole and breaking them down at will!
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A good post, Ice (especially, your first couple of sentences).  :lol:
 
David Cain had a very ugly jumper but he hit just enough to keep the defense honest.
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You're right about ugly. Cain's elbow actually moved left to right every time he tried to shoot.

And he only took a handful of three pointers (most, if not all last second desperation jumpers) his entire senior season when he was playing 40 minutes in tight games.

But Cain was somehow able to master the 15-foot dribble drive jumper from straight away. I remember many a night when he would rush down the court on the break, the D would back off towards the basket and he would stop and pop.

It looks easier than it is. But I hope Nuri can learn a move like that.


The ugliest STJ jumper I ever saw was from Lee Green. It was like he was shooting with is off hand every time.
 
Agree with all of your post except the comment about this year's team having more heart. Last year's team was down, out and finished before the season started. They worked hhard, reacted well to the knew staff, and exceed all expectations.

Anyone who is trying to judge these players based on two games vs. decent competition is off the wall. Older guys will remember incredible runs that Bernard King had over 10-15 games when he was a Knick. He wasn't that good, but was in a zone.

We are just getting a glimpse of what these kids can and can't do. After a few games, you simply can't declare what guys can and can't do. Remember, in the early going last year, Hardy wasn't the main guy - then he emerged.

Instead of trying to be analysts, try just observing what you see, and enjoying the good stuff. Most people who spout the analysis are simply parroting what announcers, reporters, scouting reports, etc are saying about a kid. Very often they are all flat out wrong.

Long, long way to go, and room for plenty of improvement along the way. These are a bunch of guys getting their first taste of big time basketball, and to judge them at this point is unfair and inaccurate.



 So far..... after seriously reading all posts on this thread I have to say some people just don't know basketball. They also don't know how to keep their mouths shut before sticking their own foot in it. Norm's team under the 1 year that Lavin coached it was a complete 360 in juicing every ounce of talent from it. Norm couldn't do it and wasn't ever going too. Alot of those guys are now enjoying professional careers with the opportunity of making the NBA down the road under Lavin's 1 year of instruction along with his coaching staff.

Now what I have seen from this team is a whole lot more heart then last year's team. To not like Nuri's game thus far is ubsurd! If Nuri is out then the offense should go through Mo! The games we are losing is because of lack of depth and nothing else. Take Nuri out for a few more minutes too which he would have less fouls and we would've won the Arizona game. Another capable player against A&M and we would've won that one as well.

Our losses were not bad just some of the contributing factors that caused them too which has been discussed in detail thus far from alot of posts from the stat guru's. I agree with many that with Amir at the very leaast we can make noise but with Pelle on top of that we will sky rocket into the top 25 within a few short games thereafter! The teams that I saw were just scared and petrified to defend Nuri because he was taking it to the hole and breaking them down at will!
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So much for having some conversation.
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I'd say that perhaps I'm getting curmudgeonly in my dotage, except I reached middle age at 19. Now I'm just terminally cranky.

You seem to have information at your fingertips all the time hence my asking.

Secondly me and Lawman got into a nice discussion about how much I like Nuri's game at halftime of our last game. I was asking because I didn't think LMF was referring about when Nuri fouled out but a stretch of the game where he did sit and the offense got moving a bit.

So no I don't think the team does better with Nuri out.
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I have information at my fingertips because I google it. Bookmark these and it will be at your fingertips as well.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/2599/st-john-red-storm

http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/st-johns

http://www.lostlettermen.com/st_johns-basketball-big_east/aa/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/

Lindsey is our best offensive player since Hardy, who was our best since Hill, who was our best since Hatten. I don't care if he never hits a 3 pointer. Hatten couldn't shoot either. Neither could Malik Sealy, or Willie Glass or Walter Berry. A jump shot would be nice, but its not a necessary.

I find it passing strange that people are down on Lindsey for having no shortcomings in his game. Infallibility is a strange measure, because if one of the other ones could shoot vaguely well Lindsey's shortcomings would not be so magnified. I suspect Harrison of being a competent 3 pt shooter. We'll see.

I think what happens is that posters form opinions and then look for evidence afterwards that their opinion is correct. So the poster who announced that Lindsey was a "disappointment" in the preseason plus ones every post that is critical of his game, and the poster who announced that Phil Greene is the best player on the team notices that Lindsey is not all that he's cracked up to be. We all recall the Sean Evans imbroglio of years past, where his good play was great and his bad play because he wasn't given enough time to play well. Whereas neither was true. Just as probably none of this is true either.
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Evans averaged 10+ and 7+ as a soph. Not bad for a kid who wasn't expected tp play and in most programs a really strong building block for the future. By the time he was a senior playing for our newly hired uber-coach he was sitting entire games (losses yet) and waiting for a chance which came against, of all teams, Duke. Then it was the game ball BS and Lavin calling the comeback one of the most satisfying stories of his career. I doubt Sean would agree but he's cashing checks for playing hoops so who laughed last? Look it all up Mr. Googleman and tell me where I'm wrong.
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 So coach Steve and his staff did right by Sean, right? Anyone figure at some point the O going to go through Mo. I hope I'm not just guessing, but he looks NBA bound to me.
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I don't think Evans got a square shake from Junior year on. Minute for minute his numbers were always better than Burrell but Justin was the so called prize recruit and got preference. His BE 6th man of the year award was perhaps the most unjustified in the history of sports. Shows what a coach can do by opting to start a sub 6'6" lineup. Lavin did finally realize that he needed bigs like Evans to win but there was a lot of water under the bridge before it happened. It was remarkable that the chemistry held up through the transition. Thank DBuckets for that.
Regarding Lindsey he's our leader at the moment and has a special skill set that helps. Our best ballplayers are Moe and Sir Dom. Both will be in the NBA down the road with just normal development. Nuri has work to do but nothing hecan't handle. Hell if Paris would have had his handle he be in the NBA as well. Harrison intrigues me. He's as complete as they come and plays hard. Sky's the limit with him as long as he behaves. These decommits are frustrating because you can see what this team could do with another couple of bodies. There must be some serious inducements flying around to spur the disloyalty which makes no sense at all..
 
Bobre are you still droning on and on about Sean Evans, OK you have worn me out-you win- Sean Evans is the greatest basketball player in the history of the world. Are you happy now? :(   
 
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