So Far

[tom in salem]

I'm higher on Lindsay than you are. His innate ability to drive on defenders and his left handed finishes are invaluable. I believe his FT percentage and shooting will improve over the season and next year and think he'll be a very effective PG. In both the Ariz and Tex AM game the offense went into the doldrums when he was off the floor. I think people are much more critical of his game than is warranted. Hatten was not a good shooter but was a force on the team. Wait and see Nuri's going to be a very very good player for us.

 

I think everyone except TIS is higher on Lindsay than I am, and that includes the staff.

IMHO an effective PG looks to pass first, not score first, but that it is perhaps an old-school prejudice. You are not correct that the offense went into the doldrums with Nuri off the floor, they actually played well without him. They would play even better without him if the staff spent less time sending the players the message that Nuri is The Show so that the other players are more comfortable looking for their opportunities (I do think they are working on that).

And from the sample I've seen so far, Marcus was JJ Redick compared to Nuri.

He will be fine, and a valuable player for us, but he's just one piece of the puzzle, not a one-man team like Hatten, Hardy, etc.

 

+1.

 

[fun]

You are not correct that the offense went into the doldrums with Nuri off the floor, they actually played well without him.

Lindsey fouled out at the 16 minute mark of the ASU game, with the score 68-69. Here are the offensive possessions in the final 4 minutes.

Sir'Dominic Pointer Turnover.
Moe Harkless made Free Throw.
Moe Harkless made Free Throw.
D'Angelo Harrison Turnover.
Moe Harkless made Layup
Moe Harkless missed Free Throw.
D'Angelo Harrison Turnover.
Phil Greene missed Layup.
D'Angelo Harrison missed Layup.

Can you explain what it is about one player scoring 4 points in the final four minutes while the rest of the team contributed only missed shots and turnovers while being outscored 13-4 that comprises "played well"? TIA.

 

[Moose]

You are not correct that the offense went into the doldrums with Nuri off the floor, they actually played well without him.

Lindsey fouled out at the 16 minute mark of the ASU game, with the score 68-69. Here are the offensive possessions in the final 4 minutes.

Sir'Dominic Pointer Turnover.
Moe Harkless made Free Throw.
Moe Harkless made Free Throw.
D'Angelo Harrison Turnover.
Moe Harkless made Layup
Moe Harkless missed Free Throw.
D'Angelo Harrison Turnover.
Phil Greene missed Layup.
D'Angelo Harrison missed Layup.

Can you explain what it is about one player scoring 4 points in the final four minutes while the rest of the team contributed only missed shots and turnovers while being outscored 13-4 that comprises "played well"? TIA.

 

How many minutes did Nuri play?
What about other stretches of the game when he was out?

 

[lawmanfan]

You are not correct that the offense went into the doldrums with Nuri off the floor, they actually played well without him.

Lindsey fouled out at the 16 minute mark of the ASU game, with the score 68-69. Here are the offensive possessions in the final 4 minutes.

Sir'Dominic Pointer Turnover.
Moe Harkless made Free Throw.
Moe Harkless made Free Throw.
D'Angelo Harrison Turnover.
Moe Harkless made Layup
Moe Harkless missed Free Throw.
D'Angelo Harrison Turnover.
Phil Greene missed Layup.
D'Angelo Harrison missed Layup.

Can you explain what it is about one player scoring 4 points in the final four minutes while the rest of the team contributed only missed shots and turnovers while being outscored 13-4 that comprises "played well"? TIA.

 

No question the team melted down at the end of the Arizona game. Lots of freshman mistakes. Without going to look at the game records, and just going by my recollection from being at both games, there were stretches in each game where the team was down and came back with Nuri on the bench.

And BTW Nuri fouled out because he had (I believe) 3 charges which were the result of Ariz deciding they didn't have to bother defending the jumper.

 

[fun]

How many minutes did Nuri play?
What about other stretches of the game when he was out?

I would love to look these things up for you, but I'm busy. You could of course google them yourself: if you find the questions relevant imagine how relevant the answers might be.  

Seriously, you cannot be arguing that this team is better without Lindsey than with him.

 

[alex]

I think it is as simple as this, shoot 70% from the line and the team is 5-0. No excuses for the vast amount of free ons the boys missed vs Az and A&M. 

 

[fun]

just going by my recollection from being at both games, there were stretches in each game where the team was down and came back with Nuri on the bench. And BTW Nuri fouled out because he had (I believe) 3 charges which were the result of Ariz deciding they didn't have to bother defending the jumper.

It'd be futile to argue with your recollection. In any event I'm not sure that I'd agree that Lindsey not getting called for an offensive foul is an indication that the rest of the players were playing well.  

 

[bobre45]

You are not correct that the offense went into the doldrums with Nuri off the floor, they actually played well without him.

Lindsey fouled out at the 16 minute mark of the ASU game, with the score 68-69. Here are the offensive possessions in the final 4 minutes.

Sir'Dominic Pointer Turnover.
Moe Harkless made Free Throw.
Moe Harkless made Free Throw.
D'Angelo Harrison Turnover.
Moe Harkless made Layup
Moe Harkless missed Free Throw.
D'Angelo Harrison Turnover.

No doubt the team looks to Nuri for maturity, smarts and leadership. You could hear the air come out of them as he fouled out. He is very flawed having not hit a shot longer than 10 feet all year and crumbling at the foul line however. He's got some game but has to take 500 mid range jumpers every day if he's ever going to get anywhere in the future. Hey, Mullin and Jackson used to so who is he not to. Hatten had balls of steel and could take over on both ends. Nuri is a long way from that. I would expect Harrison to be more of a crunch time factor once he refines his bag of tricks but right now for better or worse Nuri is it. Pointer can play NBA defense right now and I'd like to see him toss a few up as long as he follows for the board. Greene is better than Stith already and offers way more length on "D." So far the coaching has been spotty. I was watching Cuse the other day and they were matching up more than we do on known three point threats. If we keep leaving guys who can shoot we are going to be ineffective
all year and unnecessarily tired jumping out on everyone. I really feel we work less playing man. The free throw problem is now costing us games. What we are doing about it is not working. Just practicing with lousy fundamentals doesn't accomplish anything. Time to bring in an expert to at least address the basics and the mental aspect as well. Nobody ever seems to improve fundamentally at SJU. Watching Mase still twisting in the wind on his jumper after so many years was just the tip of the iceberg. Mullin was great because he did it right repetively. Harrison has shots rimming out etc. but they're usuall on line. Nuri's misses are so bad he's lucky to get rim. Steve has been saying the mistakes are correctable. I'd like to see some of that happening.

 

[Moose]

How many minutes did Nuri play?
What about other stretches of the game when he was out?

I would love to look these things up for you, but I'm busy. You could of course google them yourself: if you find the questions relevant imagine how relevant the answers might be.  

Seriously, you cannot be arguing that this team is better without Lindsey than with him.

 

So much for having some conversation.

You seem to have information at your fingertips all the time hence my asking.

Secondly me and Lawman got into a nice discussion about how much I like Nuri's game at halftime of our last game. I was asking because I didn't think LMF was referring about when Nuri fouled out but a stretch of the game where he did sit and the offense got moving a bit.

So no I don't think the team does better with Nuri out.

 

[bobre45]

How many minutes did Nuri play?
What about other stretches of the game when he was out?

I would love to look these things up for you, but I'm busy. You could of course google them yourself: if you find the questions relevant imagine how relevant the answers might be.  

Seriously, you cannot be arguing that this team is better without Lindsey than with him.

 

So much for having some conversation.

You seem to have information at your fingertips all the time hence my asking.

Secondly me and Lawman got into a nice discussion about how much I like Nuri's game at halftime of our last game. I was asking because I didn't think LMF was referring about when Nuri fouled out but a stretch of the game where he did sit and the offense got moving a bit.

So no I don't think the team does better with Nuri out.

 

Right you are. Nuri is the leader of the pack right now. Hopefully he'll do more by example as time goes on. They all retreat to the familiar but he has to vary his act. There's no reason why a kid with his talent can't shoot and hit free throws. Neither Mark nor Hatten were great shooters but they always wanted the rock with the game on the line. I see Nuri in that role but he's got to put in the time and gain confidence. That's what leaders do.

 

[MJDinkins]

No doubt the team looks to Nuri for maturity, smarts and leadership. You could hear the air come out of them as he fouled out. He is very flawed having not hit a shot longer than 10 feet all year and crumbling at the foul line however. He's got some game but has to take 500 mid range jumpers every day if he's ever going to get anywhere in the future. Hey, Mullin and Jackson used to so who is he not to. Hatten had balls of steel and could take over on both ends. Nuri is a long way from that. I would expect Harrison to be more of a crunch time factor once he refines his bag of tricks but right now for better or worse Nuri is it. Pointer can play NBA defense right now and I'd like to see him toss a few up as long as he follows for the board. Greene is better than Stith already and offers way more length on "D." So far the coaching has been spotty. I was watching Cuse the other day and they were matching up more than we do on known three point threats. If we keep leaving guys who can shoot we are going to be ineffective
all year and unnecessarily tired jumping out on everyone. I really feel we work less playing man. The free throw problem is now costing us games. What we are doing about it is not working. Just practicing with lousy fundamentals doesn't accomplish anything. Time to bring in an expert to at least address the basics and the mental aspect as well. Nobody ever seems to improve fundamentally at SJU. Watching Mase still twisting in the wind on his jumper after so many years was just the tip of the iceberg. Mullin was great because he did it right repetively. Harrison has shots rimming out etc. but they're usuall on line. Nuri's misses are so bad he's lucky to get rim. Steve has been saying the mistakes are correctable. I'd like to see some of that happening.

 

I, actually think we should play more 1-2-2 (we've played it a few times); straight up 2-3 zone (less match up); and some man. A combo of defenses. I think we're chasing too much in our current zone, so it needs to be more straight up, if you ask me. 'Cuse players looks more sound in their zone due to many of their players having spent valuable time playing in it. Rarely, do they have a big turnover of players, so many of their players have spent time playing in it.

I also agree Lindsey needs to spend more time working on his jumper and mid-range game (although, I feel he can hit a short jumper), and he seems like a guy who'll work hard on his weaknesses. I do not agree that "nobody ever seems to improve fundamentally" at St. John's. I saw a few players from last season who improved from a fundamental standpoint. I can count numerous guys from past years who had gotten better. Junior Mason happened to be in a position where the skills he had weren't being properly honed. 

I believe this group will be fine as they continue to get their feet wet. The talent is certainly there for this bunch. 

 

[MCNPA]

 Nuri is averaging 15.8 ppg and 3.8 apg. I'd say that is a heck f a start for our rookie pg, and he has been sharing the ball pretty well out of the gate with almost 4 assists per game.

 

[ccnobz]

 Nuri is averaging 15.8 ppg and 3.8 apg. I'd say that is a heck f a start for our rookie pg, and he has been sharing the ball pretty well out of the gate with almost 4 assists per game.

 


I agree, the idea that the team is better with him on the bench is absurd.

 

[simplyred]

 You guys are comparing Nuri, 5 games into his STJ career, with Mark Jackson's 4 years and Hatten's 2 years of play. Come on guys!

Bobre is already criticizing the staff for not developing players. Again, this is 5 games into the careers of the players they recruited. If anything, most would probably agree that they "developed" Norm's players in the one year that they had to work with them.

I really wish Nuri hadn't fouled out against Arizona, and that he would have made the 2 free throws against A&M. Life would be wonderful right now. But I do sense a bit of an overreaction to the losses.

 

[MCNPA]

 Nuri is averaging 15.8 ppg and 3.8 apg. I'd say that is a heck f a start for our rookie pg, and he has been sharing the ball pretty well out of the gate with almost 4 assists per game.

 


I agree, the idea that the team is better with him on the bench is absurd.

 

What will happen if he improves his ft shooting? People will have nothing to complain about. As far as his outside shooting goes, he is shooting 0% from 3 but has only taken a few shots and quite a few if not most were the shot clock expiring type. He certainly needs to work a ton on all aspects of shooting, but he's a sure finisher when attacking the rim and really causes mismatches even against good teams with his ability to slash.

 

[MJDinkins]

 Nuri is averaging 15.8 ppg and 3.8 apg. I'd say that is a heck f a start for our rookie pg, and he has been sharing the ball pretty well out of the gate with almost 4 assists per game.

I also believe he has the capability of keeping up the pace.... Jumpshot or not. There is just a craftiness about this group when it comes to getting to the tin.

I'm sure the staff is gonna work hard to correct the issues at the FT line, as they probably have an idea we're gonna be at the FT line often.

 

[Moose]

 Nuri is averaging 15.8 ppg and 3.8 apg. I'd say that is a heck f a start for our rookie pg, and he has been sharing the ball pretty well out of the gate with almost 4 assists per game.

 


I agree, the idea that the team is better with him on the bench is absurd.

 

What will happen if he improves his ft shooting? People will have nothing to complain about. As far as his outside shooting goes, he is shooting 0% from 3 but has only taken a few shots and quite a few if not most were the shot clock expiring type. He certainly needs to work a ton on all aspects of shooting, but he's a sure finisher when attacking the rim and really causes mismatches even against good teams with his ability to slash.

 

10 or 11 attempts is a lot. I'm more concerned with that void in his game. Not the FT's. I still expect 70-75% when all is said and done.

 

[MJDinkins]

 Nuri is averaging 15.8 ppg and 3.8 apg. I'd say that is a heck f a start for our rookie pg, and he has been sharing the ball pretty well out of the gate with almost 4 assists per game.

 


I agree, the idea that the team is better with him on the bench is absurd.

 

What will happen if he improves his ft shooting? People will have nothing to complain about. As far as his outside shooting goes, he is shooting 0% from 3 but has only taken a few shots and quite a few if not most were the shot clock expiring type. He certainly needs to work a ton on all aspects of shooting, but he's a sure finisher when attacking the rim and really causes mismatches even against good teams with his ability to slash.

 

10 or 11 attempts is a lot. I'm more concerned with that void in his game. Not the FT's. I still expect 70-75% when all is said and done.

 

I'm also concerned with that part of his game, but a guy like Doug Gottlieb started every year he played college hoops and he couldn't shoot a bull in the arse (from the field nor FT line). He was more of a consummate PG than Lindsey appears to be, but he certainly didn't have the ability of Lindsey.

Lindsey needs to be a bit heady due to his weakness from the outside. He has 3 years of eligilibility and I feel he'll incremently improved as a shooter. 

 

[lawmanfan]

 Nuri is averaging 15.8 ppg and 3.8 apg. I'd say that is a heck f a start for our rookie pg, and he has been sharing the ball pretty well out of the gate with almost 4 assists per game.

 


I agree, the idea that the team is better with him on the bench is absurd.

 

I don't think anybody ever said that on this thread. I certainly didn't.

The questions are (1) whether the team is better with PG at the PG; and (2) whether the team can play well when Nuri is on the bench and in fact did so in some stretches against AZ and A&M.

I think the answer to both of those questions is yes. Nuri is a valuable piece of the team and contributes a lot, not least some maturity. However I think they are probably better with him at the 2 than at the 1, and I also think that they can and have played well without him. Beyond that, I think it is necessary for the development of the other players for the offense to be less Nuri-centric, even if that is at the expense of losing some games this year.

And fwiw, if he is going to shoot free throws at a Shaq-like rate, they might in fact be better with him on the bench at the end of some games.

In the words of my boon companion Fun, YMMV.

 

[bobre45]

 You guys are comparing Nuri, 5 games into his STJ career, with Mark Jackson's 4 years and Hatten's 2 years of play. Come on guys!

Bobre is already criticizing the staff for not developing players. Again, this is 5 games into the careers of the players they recruited. If anything, most would probably agree that they "developed" Norm's players in the one year that they had to work with them.

I really wish Nuri hadn't fouled out against Arizona, and that he would have made the 2 free throws against A&M. Life would be wonderful right now. But I do sense a bit of an overreaction to the losses.

 

Any time 14 foul shots are missed in a 1pt. game people are going to speak up. If the drible drive game is going to be it for this year something has to be done about it. I used Mase as an example because his failure to square up was never addressed and might have cost him a contract. This is high level CYO stuff, not brain surgery. I see some of the same signs with Nuri and hope to see him show some form as the games go on. 0 for 11 from three isn't exactly encouraging. Hardy had a cold streak early last year but they were near misses and he was doing it right. Nuri isn't and his misses are ridiculous. Same story in pre-game warmups. This is just as correctable as the defensive screwups that are putting us in a hole every game.