Roster Turnover

[Amaseinyourface]

 McGriff 
Caraher 
Cole 
Moore 
Dunn
Earl 
Greg 
Champ (maybe) 

I don’t think THIS is happening to everybody. Sure there’s a lot of movement going on but potentially 8 departures is a lot

Let's be realistic about this.  No one expected Dunn to come back, as he was a senior.  Caraher graduated already and he was not going to get any meaningful minutes going forward.  Roberts, who is omitted from this list, probably needs a fresh start if his body heals.  Cole and Moore--I don't know, but Cole did not live up to expectations--at least mine--to be a big time scorer who could give us some of what we missed without LJ.  The ones I am surprised about are GW and Earlington; but it seems like Earl is looking for more minutes, so I can understand that.

Overall, these departures should not raise any red flags at all.

No one expected Dunn to come back cause he was set to graduate after 5 years. The fact he decided to play a 6th year somewhere else is something no one saw. There’s a difference there.

I’m of the belief a player like Dunn is easier to replace than Williams (ball handler, defender, more so than an athletic shooter) but until we do, losing him to another program isn’t great.

 

[JohnnyFan]

I do agree that most of our transfers are reasonably easy to replace.  The exceptions are........

Moore -Unique talent, but had to go.  I can live with him leaving.

Earlington  -Definitely a loss and I hate that we won't have him for his senior year.  I thought he might transfer last year and I do understand him wanting more playing time.

Williams  -This is the one.  Considering who he is on and off the court, we have to retain this type of kid.  I have a theory why he left and I do see CMA as responsible. 

So....I get that it is a crazy transfer year, but we lost one too many.  Greg was the red line for me.  I love CMA and have confidence we will remain competitive, but I also hope this was a learning lesson.  

 

[Jack Williams]

So it’s actually 9 departures. Listen even if you can explain away some of them, rationalize some of them in your mind. 9 departures is too many. It just is. Continuity and program building were supposed to be the pillars of Mike Anderson’s coaching style and he wasn’t able to keep this roster together. It doesn’t mean we won’t be good next year but it’s still frustrating 

 

[Moose]

I do agree that most of our transfers are reasonably easy to replace.  The exceptions are........

Moore -Unique talent, but had to go.  I can live with him leaving.

Earlington  -Definitely a loss and I hate that we don't have him for his senior year.  I thought he might transfer last year and I do understand him wanting more playing time.

Williams  -This is the one that makes me wonder.  Considering who he is on and off the court, we have to retain this type of kid.  I have a theory why he left and I do see CMA as responsible. 

So....I get that it is a crazy transfer year, but we lost one too many.  Greg was the red line for me.  I love CMA and have confidence we will remain competitive, but I also hope this was a learning lesson.  

You are right.  Those are the only transfers people should be rightfully upset about.  However 2 weren't CMA kids so that should temper things IMO.  I could toss in Cole only because it was a CMA transfer where he clearly struck out on the two JUCO's.

What's your theory on Williams?

I think personally at the end of games who was on the floor.  It was Wusu.  Was it a mix of Greg being hurt and CMA want to put his guy in Wusu into the fire and see how he handled it?  I think Greg saw the writing on the wall that freshman become Sophomores and Wusu would play as much if not more.  And I like Greg.  He impressed the heck out of me shooting the ball last year after he finished his previous year on that hot streak.

 

[lawmanfan]

This will probably be my last post on this for awhile since I think I'm going to follow my own advice and just wait for the dust to settle.

I think that people are getting lost in the numbers and are (over)reacting before they see the finished product.

Every player who left fits into one of three categories: 

(1) their time was up or they were invited to depart (Toro, Moore);

(2) It was abundantly obvious that they were not going to get significant time (Caraher, McGriff, Roberts);

(3) The exit interviews gave them reason to believe that they would have to fight for minutes next year because of competition from Nyiwe plus the three incoming freshmen plus transfers in (Cole, Williams, Earlington).

In a normal year the players in the first two categories would have departed, and likely the players in the third category would have stayed rather than sit out a year.  However, in a world where everyone is a free agent, there is no reason for players in the third category NOT to go see if there is somewhere they can get more playing time with less competition and boost their stock to make a living playing ball in the future.

Dunn is in his own category, I think he was (and probably still is) planning to go play pro ball and threw his name in the transfer portal just to keep his options open - since he is also in the third group, basically.

What this tells you about the staff is that it is confident that the players they recruited (and note that only one of the departures is a kid they recruited out of high school, the rest were stopgaps they brought in to plug holes while they recruited their own kids) and the ones they can bring in via transfer will be superior to the ones who are leaving.  If they're wrong, then that will be unfortunate.  But I am willing to assume that they are right - especially since the work of bringing players in is not yet complete.

Would it surprise any of you if:

Smith >Dunn
Nyiwe>Roberts
Wheeler>Moore
Pinzon~Williams
Stanley>Earlington
Traore>Toro
Wusu>Cole
?

Because the staff clearly believes that either (a) that will be the case next year or (b) it is worth it to give those incoming players the time next year in order to build the program for future years.  Certainly they need another shooter and a true center, but they have space for those players and 1,000 kids in the portal to find them in.

Does it suck to lose some guys a year earlier than they would have been gone anyway?  Yes.  But they were all going to be gone in a year anyway, and would have to be replaced, so the staff got a head start on it by planning for the future.  Good for them, foresight is always a plus.

Does it mean that we may have some growing pains next year since the staff will again have to mold a group of strangers into a team?  Yes, but they did OK with that this year notwithstanding COVID, no pre-season, a limited OOC schedule and a disrupted league schedule.  I think they'll figure it out next year.

And lastly and most important (and hardest for most people around here to grasp):  Rome wasn't built in a day.  If all goes well then next season the staff will have a full roster of players that THEY brought in.  Then they'll have to keep the ones they want and continue to build around them - and that's going to be a challenge for every program in the country if annual free agency becomes the norm.  But I'm pretty sure that the staff will be above average at it, and also that the outcome of the roster changes will be a net plus probably this coming year and most certainly in the year after when the departures that are being loudly bemoaned would have happened anyway.
 

 

[Knight]

I’m not surprised Dunn is not returning.  I should have figured that he’d make his exit in the last 10 seconds.

 

[JohnnyFan]

I do agree that most of our transfers are reasonably easy to replace.  The exceptions are........

Moore -Unique talent, but had to go.  I can live with him leaving.

Earlington  -Definitely a loss and I hate that we don't have him for his senior year.  I thought he might transfer last year and I do understand him wanting more playing time.

Williams  -This is the one that makes me wonder.  Considering who he is on and off the court, we have to retain this type of kid.  I have a theory why he left and I do see CMA as responsible. 

So....I get that it is a crazy transfer year, but we lost one too many.  Greg was the red line for me.  I love CMA and have confidence we will remain competitive, but I also hope this was a learning lesson.  

You are right.  Those are the only transfers people should be rightfully upset about.  However 2 weren't CMA kids so that should temper things IMO.  I could toss in Cole only because it was a CMA transfer where he clearly struck out on the two JUCO's.

What's your theory on Williams?

I think personally at the end of games who was on the floor.  It was Wusu.  Was it a mix of Greg being hurt and CMA want to put his guy in Wusu into the fire and see how he handled it?  I think Greg saw the writing on the wall that freshman become Sophomores and Wusu would play as much if not more.  And I like Greg.  He impressed the heck out of me shooting the ball last year after he finished his previous year on that hot streak.

You pretty much nailed my theory on Williams.  Although, it wasn't just that Wusu was on the floor at end of games. CMA was actually calling final possession plays for him.  I figure Greg felt that he was the upperclassmen, just as able to get to the basket, and a better free throw shooter.  And....he's not wrong. 

Bottom line, CMA picked Wusu as his boy.  I think that was a mistake, but hopefully I am wrong.  As I said in an early post, Wusu is going to have to shoot the ball much better or we need to land a player that will.  Otherwise, CMA may have bet on the wrong kid.   Would have been nothing wrong with having Wusu wait his turn to be a final possession type guy.

 

[Amaseinyourface]

Would it surprise any of you if:

Smith >Dunn
Nyiwe>Roberts
Wheeler>Moore
Pinzon~Williams
Stanley>Earlington
Traore>Toro
Wusu>Cole
?


 

Would it surprise any of you if:

Smith >Dunn No
Nyiwe>Roberts - (him and Traore)- no
Wheeler>Moore - yes
Pinzon~Williams YES
Stanley>Earlington - Inside no, outside yes.

J think the holes left by the first 4 transfers left more than enough of an opportunity to improve the roster. Last two not so much.

 

[mm52]

I would have preferred GW, Earl and Moore to stay around based purely on basketball skills and certainly GW and Earl because of how they represented the program over the past 3 years.  But if they are all looking for better or different opportunities, this is the year to pursue them.  Good luck to all.

And I could not agree more with lawmanfan's encapsulation

 

[prjohnnies]

Moore would have helped but with the off-the-court stuff nothing you can do. 

Williams and Earlington - sucks losing them because they are great kids it seems and both are rotation guys. And Williams ceiling if he could stay healthy - big if - is higher than that. Those hurt because they fit the system and can shoot. Let’s see how we replace it. 

Others - very replaceable and wish them well. 

 

[lawmanfan]

Would it surprise any of you if:

Smith >Dunn No
Nyiwe>Roberts - (him and Traore)- no
Wheeler>Moore - yes
Pinzon~Williams YES
Stanley>Earlington - Inside no, outside yes.

J think the holes left by the first 4 transfers left more than enough of an opportunity to improve the roster. Last two not so much.
 

You've definitely identified the ones where there is the most room for doubt.  I think that Wheeler will probably be able to dunk and rebound as well as Moore, play better post D, and be less trouble to manage, but we shall see.  As much as I love Greg (maybe not as much as you, but we have largely been on the same page about him), I suspect that from a production standpoint Pinzon will about offset him (note that was a ~ and not a >).  Completely agree about Stanley/Earlington but what we needed from Earlington was the inside game.  I'm assuming the staff brings in a different player to provide the shooting.

 

[Amaseinyourface]

lawmanfan post=429782

Would it surprise any of you if:

Smith >Dunn No
Nyiwe>Roberts - (him and Traore)- no
Wheeler>Moore - yes
Pinzon~Williams YES
Stanley>Earlington - Inside no, outside yes.

J think the holes left by the first 4 transfers left more than enough of an opportunity to improve the roster. Last two not so much.


 

You've definitely identified the ones where there is the most room for doubt.  I think that Wheeler will probably be able to dunk and rebound as well as Moore, play better post D, and be less trouble to manage, but we shall see.  As much as I love Greg (maybe not as much as you, but we have largely been on the same page about him), I suspect that from a production standpoint Pinzon will about offset him (note that was a ~ and not a >.  Completely agree about Stanley/Earlington but what we needed from Earlington was the inside game.  I'm assuming the staff brings in a different player to provide the shooting.

Personally, I was hoping Pinzon can replace what Wusu was for us last year. A nice freshmen contributor. And if that’s what we got I think we should all be really happy.  Not what Greg was going to provide as senior but good points again.

 

[SJU85]

I do agree that most of our transfers are reasonably easy to replace.  The exceptions are........

Moore -Unique talent, but had to go.  I can live with him leaving.

Earlington  -Definitely a loss and I hate that we don't have him for his senior year.  I thought he might transfer last year and I do understand him wanting more playing time.

Williams  -This is the one that makes me wonder.  Considering who he is on and off the court, we have to retain this type of kid.  I have a theory why he left and I do see CMA as responsible. 

So....I get that it is a crazy transfer year, but we lost one too many.  Greg was the red line for me.  I love CMA and have confidence we will remain competitive, but I also hope this was a learning lesson.  

You are right.  Those are the only transfers people should be rightfully upset about.  However 2 weren't CMA kids so that should temper things IMO.  I could toss in Cole only because it was a CMA transfer where he clearly struck out on the two JUCO's.

What's your theory on Williams?

I think personally at the end of games who was on the floor.  It was Wusu.  Was it a mix of Greg being hurt and CMA want to put his guy in Wusu into the fire and see how he handled it?  I think Greg saw the writing on the wall that freshman become Sophomores and Wusu would play as much if not more.  And I like Greg.  He impressed the heck out of me shooting the ball last year after he finished his previous year on that hot streak.

You pretty much nailed my theory on Williams.  Although, it wasn't just that Wusu was on the floor at end of games. CMA was actually calling final possession plays for him.  I figure Greg felt that he was the upperclassmen, just as able to get to the basket, and a better free throw shooter.  And....he's not wrong. 

Bottom line, CMA picked Wusu as his boy.  I think that was a mistake, but hopefully I am wrong.  As I said in an early post, Wusu is going to have to shoot the ball much better or we need to land a player that will.  Otherwise, CMA may have bet on the wrong kid.   Would have been nothing wrong with having Wusu wait his turn to be a final possession type guy.

I agree that Greg was upset about not being in games at crunch time and possibly that after he managed his back injury, did not return to the starting lineup.  I believe the pick of Wusu over Williams had to do more with defense and not offense.  

And I don’t recall Wusu getting plays run for him on final possessions.  I recall Champ had a couple (including a beautifully run double pick three off of a side in bound which the shot was just off) and a inbound to Greg that resulted in a layup to send us to overtime.  I don’t recall any for Wusu.  

 

[Amaseinyourface]

I do agree that most of our transfers are reasonably easy to replace.  The exceptions are........

Moore -Unique talent, but had to go.  I can live with him leaving.

Earlington  -Definitely a loss and I hate that we don't have him for his senior year.  I thought he might transfer last year and I do understand him wanting more playing time.

Williams  -This is the one that makes me wonder.  Considering who he is on and off the court, we have to retain this type of kid.  I have a theory why he left and I do see CMA as responsible. 

So....I get that it is a crazy transfer year, but we lost one too many.  Greg was the red line for me.  I love CMA and have confidence we will remain competitive, but I also hope this was a learning lesson.  

You are right.  Those are the only transfers people should be rightfully upset about.  However 2 weren't CMA kids so that should temper things IMO.  I could toss in Cole only because it was a CMA transfer where he clearly struck out on the two JUCO's.

What's your theory on Williams?

I think personally at the end of games who was on the floor.  It was Wusu.  Was it a mix of Greg being hurt and CMA want to put his guy in Wusu into the fire and see how he handled it?  I think Greg saw the writing on the wall that freshman become Sophomores and Wusu would play as much if not more.  And I like Greg.  He impressed the heck out of me shooting the ball last year after he finished his previous year on that hot streak.

You pretty much nailed my theory on Williams.  Although, it wasn't just that Wusu was on the floor at end of games. CMA was actually calling final possession plays for him.  I figure Greg felt that he was the upperclassmen, just as able to get to the basket, and a better free throw shooter.  And....he's not wrong. 

Bottom line, CMA picked Wusu as his boy.  I think that was a mistake, but hopefully I am wrong.  As I said in an early post, Wusu is going to have to shoot the ball much better or we need to land a player that will.  Otherwise, CMA may have bet on the wrong kid.   Would have been nothing wrong with having Wusu wait his turn to be a final possession type guy.

I agree that Greg was upset about not being in games at crunch time and possibly that after he managed his back injury, did not return to the starting lineup.  I believe the pick of Wusu over Williams had to do more with defense and not offense.  

And I don’t recall Wusu getting plays run for him on final possessions.  I recall Champ had a couple (including a beautifully run double pick three off of a side in bound which the shot was just off) and a inbound to Greg that resulted in a layup to send us to overtime.  I don’t recall any for Wusu.  

Wusu had the game winning bucket vs Marquette and the go ahead bucket vs Butler before the ensuing inbounds blunder.

I think CMA had Greg behind Posh Dunn and for the most part Wusu. Could be cause he was partial to the guys he recruited. Could be because he thought those 3 were better. Love CMA and happy he is our coach, but if he thought Greg was 4th out of those guys than I disagree. Same if he thinks taking smith over him was worth it, but there’s a good chance that wasn’t an either or situation so not assuming that’s the case.

 

[paultzman]

Seems most, including me, are sorry Greg left, but clearly he was not forced out. The defection numbers equate to bad optics, but the world is not ending. The truth as they say is not often at the extremes.

No sense getting heated, but fair to say Mike is not perfect, like all of us. He made mistakes like blending the two Jucos into rotation and perhaps being too optimistic about their fit as teammates. Imo in year three it is fair to hold him accountable now to flesh out a better roster despite the numbers challenge. If team additions don’t lead to improvement then the proverbial buck will be on his desk.

In year three with JC back with Posh, I feel not to dance again, net of injuries of consequence, makes Mike fair game for serious criticism. The ball is in his court and the clock is ticking in my world anyway. I am sure he and staff realize that. Let’s see what the results are.

 

[shamsman2]

Seems most, including me, are sorry Greg left, but clearly he was not forced out. The defection numbers equate to bad optics, but the world is not ending. The truth as they say is not often at the extremes.

No sense getting heated, but fair to say Mike is not perfect, like all of us. He made mistakes like blending the two Jucos into rotation and perhaps being too optimistic about their fit as teammates. Imo in year three it is fair to hold him accountable now to flesh out a better roster despite the numbers challenge. If team additions don’t lead to improvement then the proverbial buck will be on his desk.

In year three with JC back with Posh, I feel not to dance again, net of injuries of consequence, makes Mike fair game for serious criticism. The ball is in his court and the clock is ticking in my world anyway. I am sure he and staff realize that. Let’s see what the results are.

All good points and CMA was still awarded COY by his fellow Coaches. He isn't perfect, but he had one helluva of year in 2020. His fascination with Cole was confusing to me, but the results were hard to argue with. Will miss Williams and Earlington, life goes on, stunned by all the transfers.
 

 

[SJU14]

My thoughts are this:

The optics of this many transfers are worse than the actual impact on the court. Vince Cole didn't live up to our hype and was too slow to be more than a role player. Isiah Moore had the best hands of any big man we have had in years but too many off the court issues and too much about himself. McGriff stuck it out and fought back from a shoulder surgery so I give him credit for that, but his transfer was obvious and I expect him to go down to a lower level and showcase his PG skills. Basically the same can be said about Josh Roberts. Fought back from surgery and had some flashes where the team played better when he was in the starting lineup, but a lower level will allow him to showcase his skills more. Earlington stings a little because he improved so much under CMA and it would've been nice to have someone be here for 4 years and graduate. The worst is obviously Greg Williams, and really the only one that will have a significant impact on our on court play next season. He got better each season and really showed his ability to shoot over the last season and a half. He was also a great representative of the school as were many of these kids. Rasheem Dunn was never coming back so I don't really consider him as part of this group.

Obviously everything will depend on what players are brought in as replacements and Champ coming back, but I'm not jumping off the ledge or blaming CMA just yet. In this scheme and play style not everyone will be happy just because nobody is going to play 35+ mins every game. Lets be patient and see what the next few weeks and months bring and root for the team no matter what.

And as an aside, stay off social media if you are just going to rip 18-22 year old kids for changing schools. There's been way too much of this recently and it's a real bad look. Nobody knows the real reason behind most of these moves and basketball is just the surface when it comes to college choices. 

 

[IDRAFT]

Seems most, including me, are sorry Greg left, but clearly he was not forced out. The defection numbers equate to bad optics, but the world is not ending. The truth as they say is not often at the extremes.

No sense getting heated, but fair to say Mike is not perfect, like all of us. He made mistakes like blending the two Jucos into rotation and perhaps being too optimistic about their fit as teammates. Imo in year three it is fair to hold him accountable now to flesh out a better roster despite the numbers challenge. If team additions don’t lead to improvement then the proverbial buck will be on his desk.

In year three with JC back with Posh, I feel not to dance again, net of injuries of consequence, makes Mike fair game for serious criticism. The ball is in his court and the clock is ticking in my world anyway. I am sure he and staff realize that. Let’s see what the results are.

I agree. My shorter (not necessarily better) version. 2020 was sold as a year of building. The team improved over 2019 yet the roster has been blown up. This time it's not because of a coaching change - and these rules do not effect just SJU. The staff owns the situation. So in 2021 do better. No excuses. And yep- we will see what the results are.

 

[Mean Gene]

Florida and Mike White have lost 6 players over the last two weeks. So it’s happening in a lot of places. 

 

[IDRAFT]

I consider this a lighter point - but it sure makes sense now that the team skipped the NIT. They probably didn't have five guys willing to make the trip.