Progress ?
- Thread starter mjmaherjr
- Start date
Not only did they not win a BET game but try to come up with 3 or 4 major wins over the 4 years. In almost all their big games they got beat bad. Sometimes they would hang around for 30-35 minutes against good teams but most times they didn't show up.
Perhaps they can do something next week but more than likely they will leave as serious underachievers.
Perhaps they can do something next week but more than likely they will leave as serious underachievers.
sorry marillac I always love your optimism but tonight is a night to vent after that ridiculous game for the 2nd year in a row. I'll be wearing my sju gear sunday night and have my laptop locked on kayak to buy airline tix once our bracket is announced but people definitely have a right to be pissed today
Class of 72
Active member
You tend to look underachieving when you are undermanned and, as Kris Dunn showed today, we have been most undermanned at the point guard position. Branch is a back up point at best. Actually, winning 21 games this season was an achievement given the team's lack of depth and individual limitations. To Lavin's credit I don't think these were the easiest egos to coach so there was progress.
The biggest progress will be if they can get by the first round of the NCAA. If they shoot 28% again and take bad shoots and fail to hit the boards like their lives depended on the rebound then there is just so much coaching you can do with a group that has played so many games together. The ball will be in their hands.
Posters can criticize me for my low opinion of Lavin all they want but the difference between the way Butller, Xavier and even Creighton played yesterday and the way we played was stark and imo revealing. They all played with a sense of purpose, poise, and a togetherness that we again in another meaningful, important game just didn't display at all. Progress, not hardly. This group of players oerachieved this year because of the lack of size and depth and maybe yesterday was the same old, same old in a big game or maybe they just have run out of gas mentally. I don't know but a successful college coach has to build a program, a program with an identity and sustainability. Progress? I just don't see it and never have. I have enjoyed this year and hope to keep enjoying it for another week or two but to me it is about the players; not any feeling we have a built or are building anything resembling a program which is the only way real progress can be meansured.
jumbo_peanuts
Active member
First off, I honestly do believe that people on this site put way too much into this program. Why? I'm a huge fan of the program and love college hoops in general, but I would never lose sleep or let it have that much of an impact on the rest of my life. And if you do let this team have that much of an impact on your life, then you really need to check your priorities. There is nothing wrong with being excited for a game or looking forward to a game....we all do it as fans. But after the game is over, why come on here and complain? All this board turns into is one poster trying to prove to another that they have the bigger balls. And most observations that are made by posters are things that my 10yr old son could figure out by watching our team once.
As for the game last night.....we sucked. No other way to say it. Other than Jordan, no one showed up to play. With that being said, last time I checked, the DeLorean has yet to be invented, so nothing the team says or does is going to change anything about last nights game. So they have two options, let this loss dwell on them and let it affect the rest of their season, or forget about it and move on.......I guess time will tell.
As for the game last night.....we sucked. No other way to say it. Other than Jordan, no one showed up to play. With that being said, last time I checked, the DeLorean has yet to be invented, so nothing the team says or does is going to change anything about last nights game. So they have two options, let this loss dwell on them and let it affect the rest of their season, or forget about it and move on.......I guess time will tell.
Class of 72
Active member
Playing devils advocate is easy on this Forum. We understand the low opinion of Lavin. It gets a lot of gas from blowhards on social media like Twitter on a daily basis. The RickyBaldiTheoAvonSammy jabs are entertaining. These visionaries see the only solution in the coaching conundrum as hiring another "savior" from rinky dink Manhattan College. Perhaps the commonality is a pathological personality defect or the entertaining side show that younger fans think is coaching. The other candidate is Danny Hurley. Now that's thinking big! Just that it isn't.
When you say it is about the players I agree but the same critics blasting Lavin can't heap praise on these seniors, some of whom misguidingly describe them as pro-level potential players under coached by Lavin yet complain that they have not made progress in their next sentence. Our players, while talented, all have flaws that could not be coached out of them in the long run. They exhibited improvement in short bursts but the lipstick eventually wears off especially in big games.
These are players that needed summer boot camps like academic students need summer school. They fail to take advantage of practice during the year and have to then catch up during the summer.
Players like Harrison and Obekpa needed summer attitude adjustments along with skills tutorials.
Phil Greene reached his potential and on any other team would have been a valuable substitute. Dom Pointer was slow to develop only because he is such a poor shooter. So yes, it is about the players but not only the current St. John's players but those that should have been part of this group that drastically reduced the quality of the product Lavin and company worked to assemble. Players like Harkless, Sampson and soon Jordan and Obekpa along with missing pieces like Gathers and Thomas would have made the Lavin legacy appear much more successful even though on paper he has not been unsuccessful and maybe just unlucky with his players.
With Lavin it is more about missing recruiting opportunities in one critical year that affected the so called sustainability of the program than his senior players letting him down big time in big games like yesterday. These seniors shot 28% and went over TEN minutes without a field goal. Missing shots, including chippies under the basket and a record number of air balls is not about coaching. It is about mental toughness and natural skills. Lavin has failed to recruit the right mix of players that can blend seamlessly into a game and contribute like a Butler or Villanova or even a Providence. Yes, it is more about the players than his x and o coaching that has him in contract limbo and if the RickyBaldiTheoAvonSammy get their wish and a new coach is hired I hope that the search committee recognizes that lying deceiving characters like Masiello who returned to Manhattan in shame are not what any forward thinking supporters have in mind for achieving long term stability.
Yeah, why would anyone post about the St. Johns BE tournament game on the redman.com site? Because we are all (or mostly all) fans with different levels of frustrations, opinions, needs to vent, share in the misery of defeat ,or exalt in joy of victory. It is a FAN site and I am so tired of posters like you coming on here with the arrogance to feel they can tell other posters what they should think or post, how they should react and how inportant something should be in their lives. I would contend YOU are the one who needs to get a life because why are you wasting your time reading posts you obviously think are a waste of time? And then compounding your waste of time by commenting on them. Agree, disagree, ignore posts, do what you want but stop telling other people how they should feel or express themselves. Or appoint yourself King of the World and see how many people you can get to follow your lead; my guess, very few.
Class of 72
Active member
Just two redmen fans discussing the game after a loss:
Really agree here Logen. What makes this site tough to read at times is not the wide variance of opinions, even those that seem redundant or just plain crazy. I would think that's what you would expect when you come to a fan website (especially one as great as the one Paul runs here).
It's the constant pontificating on those various opinions and telling people how they should root that gets tiresome. Too optimistic, too pessimistic. Reality is everyone roots differently and they are allowed to do so. If folks would accept that, and just ignore whether they think someone is too positive or too negative, then we could spend more time discussing the actual coach/team instead of everyone's individual outlook on the coach/team.
Storm Tracker
Well-known member
In Lavin's 1st season, we beat 6 nationally ranked opponents (3 in top 10) with Norm's guys.
This senior class has beaten 4 in their careers. (None this season, Creighton last year, ND and Cincy in '13 and ND when Harkless was freshman.)
I really like these guys, but that is pretty unimpressive when you consider the hype of this class 4 years ago...
This senior class has beaten 4 in their careers. (None this season, Creighton last year, ND and Cincy in '13 and ND when Harkless was freshman.)
I really like these guys, but that is pretty unimpressive when you consider the hype of this class 4 years ago...
You know what I don't understand? Why posters complain about other posters complaining. It just leads to people complaining about posters complaining about complaints. And then that leads to posters complaining about the complaints of posters who are complaining about posts complaining about complaints. It's really unnecessary.
Class of 72
Active member
Thank God we don't discuss the art of pickling peppers here or we would have thread after thread of:
Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.
Did Peter Piper pick a peck of pickled peppers?
If Peter Piper Picked a peck of pickled peppers,
Where's the peck of pickled peppers Peter Piper picked?
Class of 72
Active member
You need to consider that of that recruiting class only Pointer and Harrison were hyped coming in while Greene was wandering in prep school with little promise of future success. Both Pointer and Harrison have had an emotional roller-coaster career so Lavin's inability to surround these players with a talented supporting cast is why many are asking the $2 million question - are we getting our money's worth? He has 4 weeks to close the deal on some players. If he strikes out he will be in a rough bargaining position.
I would rather not be lumped with anyone else when discussing almost any issue on this forum. My feelings are my own and I am part of no group who may have similar views for their own reasons. I think Lavin should be replaced because I THINK he has done a lousy job building a program, has not shown any consistency or sustained effort in his recruiting, and consider him to be below average in player development, team preparation and in-game coaching. These are my opinions, no one elses. Further, I have not commented on potential replacements except to say I do not believe either Hurley brother would take a job at SJU. That is my opinion only and I have expresed it here because I know both of them (although not well by any means) but I don't think either has a very high opinion of SJU, partially because of the negative experiences both St. Anthony players have had here in the somewhat recent past and the feeling that SJU still remains a somewhat closed Mom and Pop operation. Could I be wrong in my belief that neither would come here? Certainly, no question. But I have not discussed any other coaches on this site because there are a myriad of factors that will go into that kind of career decision for anyone that I have no insight into; I think the speculation that this guy will come or that guy will come without personal knowledge are nonsense. The only opinion I have expressed regarding a replacement is that I believe we need a roll up the sleeves, blue collar X's and O's oriented guy who will be able to and interested in recruiting NY and NJ. So please don't lump me with Maven or anyone else, their opinions and positions are not mine nor mine theirs.
Harkless, Sampson and Garrett were also part of that class. If those guys would have stayed and we had those three guys this year, 6'9, 6'8 and 6'7, we would be a top 10 team. The real criticism of Lavin is basically flubbing last years recruiting cycle. Now that I've had time to calm down after yesterday's debacle, it's plain to see that this team has been undermanned all year, we lack height and have had key players playing injured and another with a rash of personal issues which caused him to miss games and affect his play. That's hard to overcome when you are basically playing 7 guys. It's amazing that they won 21 games now that I look back on the season. Let's just hope they get a favorable match up for next week and the rest will do them good considering. I wish they would just announce an extension for Lavin for recruiting purposes, we almost have to extend him or start all over again. It really is a catch 22. Hopefully CO and Jordan come back.
i sure hope the team isn't as demoralized as some of the people on here. we need the guys to be pissed like maher said and take it out on their next opponent. coaches win championships, but players can still win a few games despite their coach. let's hope for a mini-run to the sweet 16.