Ponds , again , limited his scoring chances. He only took 7 shots but, focused on the part of his game the NBA wants him to develop .He makes his teammates better with his play making . Not worried with him not going for 30-40 a game . He has proven , time and again, he can score at will against almost any opponent . Figgy is going to be a tough matchup for most of our BE opponents . He’s a heady player and plays hard every play . Heron is still finding his way , as a off the ball player . A role he hasn’t played much in his career . Plus , in our offense , it’s rare any player will get more than 15 shots a game . Except Pond’ s , when necessary . When the BE play opens , he will be a match up problem for smaller guards . Clark will be Clark , as he has been . Simon , is the enigma this Year . His game hasn’t been the same , mostly because we have 2 more Offendive options in Figgy and Heron . So his role is to play D, rebound , start the break occasionally and take it to the house . Expect , like last year, misses that roll off the Rim and less than 70 percent free throw shooting . Still , at Games end his stats are usually there in all columns . Yesterday , was a poor day for him . Maybe the week lay-off ? I think the key to our Season will be how hard we play for 2 half’s and not get lazy early in the game . We have a lot of offensive players this year and Ponds isn’t going to be doubled as much as a result . And, he has shown he can dish the rock as well as shoot it ! Despite the early schedule , I don’t think Mullin has shown all he plans to do on the offensive end yet . Why give opponents a look at our plans ? Defensively , we give up the 3 point shot too easily and BE opponents will live and die against us , if they over use it . Some games , it might blow us out . Others will shoot 10-30 and lose . It’s quite possible we go 10-8 or 11-7 in Conference . The Duke game ? Since it’s a Blue Devils home game , we won’t get many calls . Offensively or defensively . Playing them close and hard is all we can ask . And , from their side , who is going to guard Ponds ? We will see . The Seton Hall game is a toss up , because it is a Pirate home game at the Pru .
(POST-GAME) Wagner, Sun. Dec. 16, 4:30p
- Thread starter Knight
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Ray Morgan
Well-known member
After his breakout performance against Rutgers, Heron is shooting just 37% from the field. Considering the competition has not been great, those numbers are puzzling. Heron has a nice stroke and can post up, so what's going wrong? No idea, other than the difference between Heron and Ponds, besides 4 inches and 30 lbs. is that Ponds is more an instinctual, creative offensive player, while Heron is more structured and predictable. With this offense, it pays to be more of an unorthodox player like Ponds and even Figgy. Then again, as Paultzman says, it can't help that he has PF responsibilities in a SG body.
Heron is not anywhere close to the player that Ponds is at this point in his development. If he was he would be playing in the NBA and not at St. John’s given his size and strength. Heron has a lot of talent but needs to continue to work on his game. If he has any true desires to stick in the NBA, he should be back next year.
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One thought on being ranked. Outside of our 10-0 record there really isn’t any justification. That said and I know Furman beat Villanova, we are ahead of Furman in every single ranking metrics that I could find so if they are ranked based on record we should be also.
Ray Morgan, good point about Heron’s 37 pt shooting percentage . Agree , he has a good stroke and is very talented . He can get to the Rim and has but, like Simon a lot of his shots roll off , instead of in. Plus , he has been clobbered on many occasions and hasn’t gotten a lot of calls from the refs . He is a good foul shooter . Usually . He is also playing much of the time , without the ball . A new role . He has played good D , has guarded a lot of bigger players and is still finding his way as a new addition this year . I think he will have some big games for us , when the BE season starts . Then too, our expectations may be set too high for him . At Auburn , he was a 16-17 points a game player . Here it’s 15 points a game so far . So , it’s not much different . It’s not t his game to be averaging 20 -25 a night . And , his role here is not to be the number 1 option .i think he will have a nice year for us .
I've been focusing on Heron alot this year trying to figure out where he fits into the puzzle. As others have said, he never quite looked comfortable outside of the Rutgers game. I think part of the issue is we don't have a set offense, and he's had to create for himself more than ever, which he doesn't appear comfortable doing. On the other hand, many times when he penetrates and draws contact, they don't even call it a foul. I keep looking for him to develop further as part of this team and look comfortable.
It is strange how often Heron gets fouled with no calls. Against VCU he was pretty much fouled 80% of his touches inside with no calls. I thought it was that game but that was just the worst example but I found myself wondering about this vs Wagner too. You can see him getting frustrated with it too. I like tough guys that don't sweat the fouls but he may need to develop his inner Shane Battier a bit to get more calls for both him and the team.
beast of the east
Active member
I haven't seen any video of Heron at Auburn, but it's clear that his role in offense is off the ball. Ponds at this point is controlling everything, and the offense suits him and showcases him well. Simon and Heron appear to be struggling in particular with the ball in their hands much less frequently.
Simon appears to be spotting up less from three (although that is only by observation and not off review of stat sheets, and appears most of his opportunities involve him taking it to the hole strongly. Heron gets touches but is likely much more accustomed to being the focal point and not just an option. LJ is a great finisher and finisher and benefitting from running the floor, and being a favorite target of Ponds to find in transition, where something good often happens. Clark appears to be doing the same stuff well - spotting up for threes, and yesterday he grabbed more than his usual share of rebounds.
With 2 important cogs in the offense appearing uncomfortable, I hope that changes soon. Perhaps some sets designed for Heron that free him up. To me, it's clear that he can fill it up in the right circumstance, and should be our #2 weapon, and not just one of many after Ponds.
Simon appears to be spotting up less from three (although that is only by observation and not off review of stat sheets, and appears most of his opportunities involve him taking it to the hole strongly. Heron gets touches but is likely much more accustomed to being the focal point and not just an option. LJ is a great finisher and finisher and benefitting from running the floor, and being a favorite target of Ponds to find in transition, where something good often happens. Clark appears to be doing the same stuff well - spotting up for threes, and yesterday he grabbed more than his usual share of rebounds.
With 2 important cogs in the offense appearing uncomfortable, I hope that changes soon. Perhaps some sets designed for Heron that free him up. To me, it's clear that he can fill it up in the right circumstance, and should be our #2 weapon, and not just one of many after Ponds.
[quote="Beast of the East" post=308594]I haven't seen any video of Heron at Auburn, but it's clear that his role in offense is off the ball. Ponds at this point is controlling everything, and the offense suits him and showcases him well. Simon and Heron appear to be struggling in particular with the ball in their hands much less frequently.
Simon appears to be spotting up less from three (although that is only by observation and not off review of stat sheets, and appears most of his opportunities involve him taking it to the hole strongly. Heron gets touches but is likely much more accustomed to being the focal point and not just an option. LJ is a great finisher and finisher and benefitting from running the floor, and being a favorite target of Ponds to find in transition, where something good often happens. Clark appears to be doing the same stuff well - spotting up for threes, and yesterday he grabbed more than his usual share of rebounds.
With 2 important cogs in the offense appearing uncomfortable, I hope that changes soon. Perhaps some sets designed for Heron that free him up. To me, it's clear that he can fill it up in the right circumstance, and should be our #2 weapon, and not just one of many after Ponds.[/quote]
Good analysis. I just wonder if that's the product of having so many weapons on offense. Hard to find a role for everyone. Our starting 5 + Dixon are all legit scorers.
Simon appears to be spotting up less from three (although that is only by observation and not off review of stat sheets, and appears most of his opportunities involve him taking it to the hole strongly. Heron gets touches but is likely much more accustomed to being the focal point and not just an option. LJ is a great finisher and finisher and benefitting from running the floor, and being a favorite target of Ponds to find in transition, where something good often happens. Clark appears to be doing the same stuff well - spotting up for threes, and yesterday he grabbed more than his usual share of rebounds.
With 2 important cogs in the offense appearing uncomfortable, I hope that changes soon. Perhaps some sets designed for Heron that free him up. To me, it's clear that he can fill it up in the right circumstance, and should be our #2 weapon, and not just one of many after Ponds.[/quote]
Good analysis. I just wonder if that's the product of having so many weapons on offense. Hard to find a role for everyone. Our starting 5 + Dixon are all legit scorers.
Easy to say Heron should do this and that while we sit on our arses!
I think (hope) he will start getting some fouls called on his drives. As other posters mentioned it looks like he is often fouled but since he is strong he is able to still get his shot up and the fouls aren’t being called.
Not getting those fouls called is lowering his FG %.
I think (hope) he will start getting some fouls called on his drives. As other posters mentioned it looks like he is often fouled but since he is strong he is able to still get his shot up and the fouls aren’t being called.
Not getting those fouls called is lowering his FG %.
[quote="Room112" post=308598]
Good analysis. I just wonder if that's the product of having so many weapons on offense. Hard to find a role for everyone. Our starting 5 + Dixon are all legit scorers.[/quote]
We've got 5 guys averaging double figures in scoring. Seems to be working pretty well. It seems to me that Simon and Heron are being asked to emphasize their slashing on offense and Heron has the green light 100% regardless. They need to finish better. That is the issue, not being lost in the offense or lack of offense. There is definitely an offense and the guys are mostly executing it very well. The spacing is usually very good both in the full and half court. When the defenses switch our offense seems to recognize it right away and usually reacts appropriately like looking for Heron or Fig in the middle. After watching totally pointless offensive sets under Fran and Jarvis, this is a breath of fresh air. The 5 out/zone offense may not be everyone's preference but it is working. Closing out on shooters not so much.
Good analysis. I just wonder if that's the product of having so many weapons on offense. Hard to find a role for everyone. Our starting 5 + Dixon are all legit scorers.[/quote]
We've got 5 guys averaging double figures in scoring. Seems to be working pretty well. It seems to me that Simon and Heron are being asked to emphasize their slashing on offense and Heron has the green light 100% regardless. They need to finish better. That is the issue, not being lost in the offense or lack of offense. There is definitely an offense and the guys are mostly executing it very well. The spacing is usually very good both in the full and half court. When the defenses switch our offense seems to recognize it right away and usually reacts appropriately like looking for Heron or Fig in the middle. After watching totally pointless offensive sets under Fran and Jarvis, this is a breath of fresh air. The 5 out/zone offense may not be everyone's preference but it is working. Closing out on shooters not so much.
[quote="Paul Massell" post=308600][quote="Room112" post=308598]
Good analysis. I just wonder if that's the product of having so many weapons on offense. Hard to find a role for everyone. Our starting 5 + Dixon are all legit scorers.[/quote]
We've got 5 guys averaging double figures in scoring. Seems to be working pretty well. It seems to me that Simon and Heron are being asked to emphasize their slashing on offense and Heron has the green light 100% regardless. They need to finish better. That is the issue, not being lost in the offense or lack of offense. There is definitely an offense and the guys are mostly executing it very well. The spacing is usually very good both in the full and half court. When the defenses switch our offense seems to recognize it right away and usually reacts appropriately like looking for Heron or Fig in the middle. After watching totally pointless offensive sets under Fran and Jarvis, this is a breath of fresh air. The 5 out/zone offense may not be everyone's preference but it is working. Closing out on shooters not so much.[/quote]
Very fair. Let me get your take on this. I don't know what Heron's expectation is, I believe he tested the draft waters last year, but I wonder if he was hoping this would be a showcase year for him like Ponds is getting here.
Good analysis. I just wonder if that's the product of having so many weapons on offense. Hard to find a role for everyone. Our starting 5 + Dixon are all legit scorers.[/quote]
We've got 5 guys averaging double figures in scoring. Seems to be working pretty well. It seems to me that Simon and Heron are being asked to emphasize their slashing on offense and Heron has the green light 100% regardless. They need to finish better. That is the issue, not being lost in the offense or lack of offense. There is definitely an offense and the guys are mostly executing it very well. The spacing is usually very good both in the full and half court. When the defenses switch our offense seems to recognize it right away and usually reacts appropriately like looking for Heron or Fig in the middle. After watching totally pointless offensive sets under Fran and Jarvis, this is a breath of fresh air. The 5 out/zone offense may not be everyone's preference but it is working. Closing out on shooters not so much.[/quote]
Very fair. Let me get your take on this. I don't know what Heron's expectation is, I believe he tested the draft waters last year, but I wonder if he was hoping this would be a showcase year for him like Ponds is getting here.
beast of the east
Active member
[quote="Paul Massell" post=308600][quote="Room112" post=308598]
Good analysis. I just wonder if that's the product of having so many weapons on offense. Hard to find a role for everyone. Our starting 5 + Dixon are all legit scorers.[/quote]
We've got 5 guys averaging double figures in scoring. Seems to be working pretty well. It seems to me that Simon and Heron are being asked to emphasize their slashing on offense and Heron has the green light 100% regardless. They need to finish better. That is the issue, not being lost in the offense or lack of offense. There is definitely an offense and the guys are mostly executing it very well. The spacing is usually very good both in the full and half court. When the defenses switch our offense seems to recognize it right away and usually reacts appropriately like looking for Heron or Fig in the middle. After watching totally pointless offensive sets under Fran and Jarvis, this is a breath of fresh air. The 5 out/zone offense may not be everyone's preference but it is working. Closing out on shooters not so much.[/quote]
I think this is where statistics may be deceiving. Heron has had a couple of game at or above 30 points, plus the weaker competition distorts all stats at this point. For this to be a dangerous tourney team, I'd like to know we have at least two formidable scorers, and likely three. Great NBA teams usually have at least 3 "superstars" which except for the Dukes and Kentuckys no one really has. For us to be a lethal scoring team, I'd like for us to be able to pencil on LJ, Heron, and Ponds for 13 points or more game in , game out. Ponds of course, is there. It remains to be seen if LJ and Heron will contribute consistently on offense. If the attack is balanced like that, key on any one or two of the three, and the other guys (including Trimble and Dixon) will burn you.
Good analysis. I just wonder if that's the product of having so many weapons on offense. Hard to find a role for everyone. Our starting 5 + Dixon are all legit scorers.[/quote]
We've got 5 guys averaging double figures in scoring. Seems to be working pretty well. It seems to me that Simon and Heron are being asked to emphasize their slashing on offense and Heron has the green light 100% regardless. They need to finish better. That is the issue, not being lost in the offense or lack of offense. There is definitely an offense and the guys are mostly executing it very well. The spacing is usually very good both in the full and half court. When the defenses switch our offense seems to recognize it right away and usually reacts appropriately like looking for Heron or Fig in the middle. After watching totally pointless offensive sets under Fran and Jarvis, this is a breath of fresh air. The 5 out/zone offense may not be everyone's preference but it is working. Closing out on shooters not so much.[/quote]
I think this is where statistics may be deceiving. Heron has had a couple of game at or above 30 points, plus the weaker competition distorts all stats at this point. For this to be a dangerous tourney team, I'd like to know we have at least two formidable scorers, and likely three. Great NBA teams usually have at least 3 "superstars" which except for the Dukes and Kentuckys no one really has. For us to be a lethal scoring team, I'd like for us to be able to pencil on LJ, Heron, and Ponds for 13 points or more game in , game out. Ponds of course, is there. It remains to be seen if LJ and Heron will contribute consistently on offense. If the attack is balanced like that, key on any one or two of the three, and the other guys (including Trimble and Dixon) will burn you.
[quote="Room112" post=308601]
Very fair. Let me get your take on this. I don't know what Heron's expectation is, I believe he tested the draft waters last year, but I wonder if he was hoping this would be a showcase year for him like Ponds is getting here.[/quote]
My take is this: It is there for him. The offense he is in now showcases his NBA potential better than anything else and presents him with a framework where he can develop as a player. He is not going to be a point guard in the NBA. For him to to showcase himself is not an either/or vs Ponds. He is in the pretty much exact role he'll be in, in the NBA. Off guard that needs to have some inside game and speed, strength and athleticism to guard larger players. He is not a spot up shooter and he won't get onto an NBA team in that way.
I also think that as the season progresses he will be increasingly important and will, barring injury be the leading scorer as often as not.
Very fair. Let me get your take on this. I don't know what Heron's expectation is, I believe he tested the draft waters last year, but I wonder if he was hoping this would be a showcase year for him like Ponds is getting here.[/quote]
My take is this: It is there for him. The offense he is in now showcases his NBA potential better than anything else and presents him with a framework where he can develop as a player. He is not going to be a point guard in the NBA. For him to to showcase himself is not an either/or vs Ponds. He is in the pretty much exact role he'll be in, in the NBA. Off guard that needs to have some inside game and speed, strength and athleticism to guard larger players. He is not a spot up shooter and he won't get onto an NBA team in that way.
I also think that as the season progresses he will be increasingly important and will, barring injury be the leading scorer as often as not.
I’m not too worried about Heron but I hope he can figure it out. I’m pretty confident Heron was told by NBA scouts that he needed to learn how to play off the ball and take more efficient shots. When you add the NBA mindset of Chris Mullin ( either take a three or attack the rim) you can see why this has been tough on him.
Essentially, He’s not getting the fouls for attacking the rim and playing power forward occasionally is tiring him out which is messing up his three point shot.
Essentially, He’s not getting the fouls for attacking the rim and playing power forward occasionally is tiring him out which is messing up his three point shot.
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[quote="Beast of the East" post=308603]
I think this is where statistics may be deceiving. Heron has had a couple of game at or above 30 points, plus the weaker competition distorts all stats at this point. For this to be a dangerous tourney team, I'd like to know we have at least two formidable scorers, and likely three. [/quote]
The only one who isn't a proven scorer against any/all competition is Figueroa.
The guy is a fantastic basketball player and will score. Will he hit a wall in a month? Maybe but the way he has been playing does not look like it to me.
I think this is where statistics may be deceiving. Heron has had a couple of game at or above 30 points, plus the weaker competition distorts all stats at this point. For this to be a dangerous tourney team, I'd like to know we have at least two formidable scorers, and likely three. [/quote]
The only one who isn't a proven scorer against any/all competition is Figueroa.
The guy is a fantastic basketball player and will score. Will he hit a wall in a month? Maybe but the way he has been playing does not look like it to me.
I wonder if some of the issue with Heron's offensive play so far is that he's expending so much energy on the defensive end guarding bigs and rebounding. He may just be exhausted and thus not finishing as well as he has in the past on the offensive end.
[quote="Paul Massell" post=308607][quote="Beast of the East" post=308603]
I think this is where statistics may be deceiving. Heron has had a couple of game at or above 30 points, plus the weaker competition distorts all stats at this point. For this to be a dangerous tourney team, I'd like to know we have at least two formidable scorers, and likely three. [/quote]
The only one who isn't a proven scorer against any/all competition is Figueroa.
The guy is a fantastic basketball player and will score. Will he hit a wall in a month? Maybe but the way he has been playing does not look like it to me.[/quote]
Adapts too well to different situations, adjusting his game to hit much of a wall imo.
I think this is where statistics may be deceiving. Heron has had a couple of game at or above 30 points, plus the weaker competition distorts all stats at this point. For this to be a dangerous tourney team, I'd like to know we have at least two formidable scorers, and likely three. [/quote]
The only one who isn't a proven scorer against any/all competition is Figueroa.
The guy is a fantastic basketball player and will score. Will he hit a wall in a month? Maybe but the way he has been playing does not look like it to me.[/quote]
Adapts too well to different situations, adjusting his game to hit much of a wall imo.