(POST-GAME) @Duke, Sat. Feb. 2, Noon, ESPN / 570AM

[quote="Jack Williams" post=319905][quote="Mike Zaun" post=319896]Honestly it's pretty stupid to play Duke just to win a few times every few decades. Duke got tougher contests from far inferior teams to us. This game was on ESPN and made the casual fan say "damn, St. John's sucks". I know you can see it as a win win, expecting the loss but big press if we win. But we should really stop playing a Duke type program until we are ready with a full team. We need to play teams we actually have a chance against but are also good programs like Florida, Maryland, Cuse, Michigan State, etc. These are games we would actually have a real chance in. Does us no good getting our wheels blown off by 30 on ESPN to anyone IMO. Doubt that happens with any of the former I mentioned.[/quote]

We just beat duke last year. And yesterday was the first time a duke team blew us out in a pretty long time.

Even when we weren’t even a good team, we had Moe Harkless and a bunch of freshman, we went into Cameron and kept the game close the whole way. The year before that, we stomped all over duke at MSG. Even coach K’s 1,000th win was a game St. John’s controlled the whole way and let go of.

I know you’re mad we got embarrassed yesterday and so is everyone but Duke/SJU has been a matchup that has brought some pretty great games over the years. We are 2-3 in our last 5 against duke. We blew them out once, they blew us out once.

Sure during the norm years they beat us pretty handily a few times, but who wasn’t beating us handily during the norm years?

I heard Paultz said the rivalry has probably run its course, and that’s fine I guess, but it’s not like we haven’t been able to compete against their program over the years

And the logic that people saw the game yesterday and thinks we suck, well we beat them and nova last year... but that doesn’t mean we were a great team last year. Just like losing yesterday doesn’t mean we suck.

You know what leaves more of an impression on people than playing at noon on a random Saturday on ESPN?

Winning games in March. If we do that none of that game even matters and people will recognize sju.[/quote]

You're right Jack. And some of our best memories over the past 20 years have been some big games against Duke.
 
[quote="Jack Williams" post=319962]So your point is it highlights the difference in programs... do you really have to watch us play them to recognize that? We are nowhere near duke.

Should we leave the conference so we can avoid nova, a program much better than us too?

Avoiding duke is not gonna keep the truth about our program away from people’s eyes, I’m sorry[/quote]

Jack you're wasting your breath trying to explain this. You seem to be one of the few people who realize how irrelevant this program has been for 20 years now.
 
With the ACC going to a 20 game
in conference schedule (up from 18)
there is no room on the Duke schedule for us

So we will not be playing Duke for the foreseeable future

As you are probably aware, we have non conference games with Arizona,
Arizona State and West Virginia next season
 
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All I'm saying is we should start facing big name programs that will still electrify the Garden and give us a chance for a big ranked win but also give us a real shot to beat them. Yes we won last year but we all know these are extreme exceptions. I'd rather play Florida State, Michigan State, Michigan, Ohio State, Oklahoma, etc. Still very recognizable brands and great programs but also beatable. It just makes no sense to me that we schedule cupcakes and then the impossible Duke game. Nothing really in between. Like Chicago said, we beat Duke in 2011 and last year and we saw zero recruiting benefits. The only way a Duke win really benefits us is if we are in a tourney type year which is very rare lately.
 
I’m trying to be respectful but you guys aren’t making much sense. You wanna play Ohio state, Michigan, etc?

The garden will be half empty. And also, If beating duke doesn’t help recruiting, why would beating Michigan state or some big 10 school help?

Also, while on the topic, we blew out duke in 2011... then brought in 6-7 top 100 recruits the following year. Who are you guys to say it didn’t do anything for recruiting??

Who’s to say LJ Fig didn’t watch the duke game last year and seriously consider us?

You guys aren’t making any sense whatsoever. We win against duke, we’ve beaten them many times. They bring more juice to the garden than pretty much any other team in college basketball. Yea we lose a lot but it’s a good challenge for this program. If we don’t challenge ourselves what the hell are we playing sports for?? For the last time, playing duke doesn’t make or break the program... but it brings a lot of attention, is always an opportunity to get a signature win on a tournament resume, and is a solid rivalry.

Yea we got blown out the other day, last 4 duke games before that were great games. I’m fine with how it’s been going
 
We lost. It's over. Mount Zion was too big to climb. Completely different game without him. A once in a lifetime player.
 
[quote="Jack Williams" post=319985]I’m trying to be respectful but you guys aren’t making much sense. You wanna play Ohio state, Michigan, etc?

The garden will be half empty. And also, If beating duke doesn’t help recruiting, why would beating Michigan state or some big 10 school help?

Also, while on the topic, we blew out duke in 2011... then brought in 6-7 top 100 recruits the following year. Who are you guys to say it didn’t do anything for recruiting??

Who’s to say LJ Fig didn’t watch the duke game last year and seriously consider us?

You guys aren’t making any sense whatsoever. We win against duke, we’ve beaten them many times. They bring more juice to the garden than pretty much any other team in college basketball. Yea we lose a lot but it’s a good challenge for this program. If we don’t challenge ourselves what the hell are we playing sports for?? For the last time, playing duke doesn’t make or break the program... but it brings a lot of attention, is always an opportunity to get a signature win on a tournament resume, and is a solid rivalry.

Yea we got blown out the other day, last 4 duke games before that were great games. I’m fine with how it’s been going[/quote]

Those teams actually give us a shot way more than Duke who will always have top 10 kids every year until Coach K retires. I don't think any big OOC games at MSG help our recruiting IMO. I can't remember one recruit committing right after a big OOC win against a major opponent. We should have scheduled like Seton Hall where they had lots of very solid big name programs but also won their fair share because they weren't Duke. There are a lot of teams we could have scheduled in between Duke and whoever the 25th team is. Fair or not, the average college hoops fan who doesn't follow us closely just watched that game on ESPN and comes away thinking "wow SJ is terrible". Obviously most of us realize it was Zion who is a once in a generation type kid and other top 5 NBA picks so we won't get too down on it. I'm just talking about the average college fan. Jack we agree on a lot but agree to disagree here...I highly doubt the Garden is empty with Ohio State or Michigan or Michigan State. We just got over 18,000 to come watch a G'Town team that won't make the tourney most likely. I realize the rivalry helps draw but still...I'd expect at least 12k for those opponents. We just didn't balance the schedule this year. Mostly cupcakes and then Duke. We need Ohio State/Mich/Texas type games in between.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=319922]Told main reason for curtailing Duke/SJU series is ACC going to 20 game league schedule next season & limited options for Duke as a result.

http://www.syracuse.com/orangebaske...dule_in_2019-20_when_acc_network_launche.html[/quote]

That probably gives no time for OOC games post Jan 1 which is a problem for the series (though once or twice at duke the game was pre Christmas).

I’d think cragg would certainly try to get this going again in a couple years if there’s a way to make it happen pre Christmas on a more regular basis but that is also probably tougher with different tournaments both teams are in and duke’s opportunities to play a bigger name at msg before Xmas.
 
We need to get Cuse back in the mix and have some kind of trophy like King of NY like a crown or something. Syracuse is not the dominant force they used to be in the old Big East and Boeheim retires soon...we can definitely compete with them now and won the last 3.
 
[quote="Tha Kid" post=319996][quote="Paultzman" post=319922]Told main reason for curtailing Duke/SJU series is ACC going to 20 game league schedule next season & limited options for Duke as a result.

http://www.syracuse.com/orangebaske...dule_in_2019-20_when_acc_network_launche.html[/quote]

That probably gives no time for OOC games post Jan 1 which is a problem for the series (though once or twice at duke the game was pre Christmas).

I’d think cragg would certainly try to get this going again in a couple years if there’s a way to make it happen pre Christmas on a more regular basis but that is also probably tougher with different tournaments both teams are in and duke’s opportunities to play a bigger name at msg before Xmas.[/quote]

FWIW...Duke also has a commitment for the Champions Classic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champions_Classic#Future_match-ups
 
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Is the West Virginia game official? I believe that is going to be part of big east big 12.
Also, Gavitt games I believe we are due for a year off.

Finally, believe Virginia is in that mohegan tourney as well.
 
Drawing a nice crowd to MSG obviously requires Johnnies to be good, but another factor is depth of alumni base of opposition living in NYC area. Michigan fits that aspect well for example, as does Cuse, North Carolina and Duke. UConn will improve under Hurley and fans, as obnoxious as they are, travel well when team is good. I much prefer a solid MSG crowd even if amply filled by opposition. It just adds to atmosphere. To me, teams like West Virginia or ASU are solid programs, but count on a half empty MSG, especially if SJU is only decent.
 
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I remember playing Norte Dame years ago. How about the Irish at MSG? Unfortunately, their fans may outnumber ours.
 
One missed opportunity in the first half is that I thought we could have had Ponds handle 1/1 against 94 foot pressure from Tre Jones, possibly the best on ball defensive PG in the country, more frequently, taking 15 seconds off the shot clock before getting the ball within 25 feet of hoop.

That said I did think a great halftime adjustment was having Simon takeover handling 1/1 against 94 foot pressure from Barrett/Reddish. I didn't see an opportunity at any point for Clark to walk the ball up unpressured against Bolden so that we could get into offense without creating a fastbreak going the other way.

SJU was down 25 with 15:11 to go in the game, never got closer than 22, and lost by 30. And yet somehow Figgy played 36, Ponds played 35, and Heron played 34. Duke - who is playing an atrocious Boston College team at home tomorrow, not the #10 team in the country on the road - pulled their starters...our starters remained in. Duke then pulled their bench and put their walk-ons in...and Figgy, Heron, and Simon somehow ended the game on the floor.

I'm not sure if that was some sort of teaching moment, but a 2 day turn for #10 on the road to end 4 games in 10 days, including 3 in 7 days travelling Omaha-Durham-Milwaukee, is nowhere near the time for that. Ponds should have been out at the 8 and everyone should have been out by the 4. Not like our bench could have gotten dunked on by Zion any more than the starters did.

If this team is inconsistent to the tune of one step forward one back, so too is the coaching staff it often appears. Joking about the insanity of trying to dribble through Duke's pressure as opposed to, I don't know, passing through it, they were going to blow our doors off on Saturday whether we had the most well-designed press break in history or not. They just played that well and we were that overmatched physically.

But do not understand our starters playing their typical minutes in a game that wasn't winnable about 5 minutes into the 2nd half. Going into a bye week? Sure, let them get a front row seat for what elite looks like. With a critical conference game 3 days later? Can't understand how that makes any amount of sense and hope it is not a factor tomorrow night.
 
[quote="Knight" post=320011]I remember playing Norte Dame years ago. How about the Irish at MSG? Unfortunately, their fans may outnumber ours.[/quote]

A lot of phony Irish fans, though.

Most of them are Notre Dame football fans, who know little to nothing about the basketball team. It actually helped us, IMO, because while they brought "fans", their "fans" usually did not make a lot of noise, so it was not too bad.
 
A bit late but here are my thoughts:
1. Ponds as previously said, had a very bad day. No excuses with some of those turnovers and bs dribbling to get over half. That being said, Jones gets a lot of help from having the shot blockers behind him. Even when Ponds got past him, he was smothered from the other four Duke defenders. It also helped Jones that they refused to call a hand check. If so he would of fouled out in the first 10 minutes.

2. Marvin Clark needs to realize how important he is on offense and that giving up layups on defense sometimes to preserve his fouls is needed. Him picking up fouls 2 and 3 (both idiotic) changed the game completely. With him on the court, we only have to hide Simon on offense. We surround Ponds with shooters, opening up driving and passing lanes. In the first 15 mins of the game (with him in) any PnR you saw Duke double Ponds, and Shamorie smartly passed to an open Clark whose man had left to double Shamorie. Clark is able to facilitate 4 on 3, or just shoot himself (hence his 12 early points.) With him out, Keita becomes that screener and is obviously not the same offensive talent. Make Heron be the screener and you now have Keita and Simon "spreading" the floor, their defenders paying no attention to them, and suffocating Heron when he receives the pass after the pick n roll. My point being Clark HAS TO BE SMARTER.

3. To that, no one had problems with Shamorie the first 10-15 minutes with our offense rolling. He wasn't scoring, but was taking the double teams, finding the open man, and letting the other 4 guys play 4 on 3. It was when Clark went out with 3 fouls that his game really went south. I think knowing that it was now only him Figgy and Heron, he started to try and beat the doubles, do too much and ultimately hurt the team more.

4. At this point, Chris has to realize it would be more beneficial to have Simon on the ball, and Ponds on the wing using screeners, handoffs etc. to get some space. Took till the 2nd half by which it was too late. Those adjustments need to be quicker.

5. I understand the thought process of playing zone. Duke typically struggles to shoot, it preserves fouls and energy. However, you have to actually know how to play the 2-3 zone correctly, you have to practice how to play it. It's clear they don't. When the ball is passed to the wing and both the guard and forward are covering the ball, the zone is broken. No communication, no rotating which in turn gave Duke WIDE OPEN 3s. Yes Duke is not a great 3 point shooting team, but that's when they have a defender within 2 feet , maybe a hand in their face.

Ultimately, you have to play a perfect game with our roster to beat them. We didn't. Get better in what we can control and move onto Marq. This one game doesn't define the team or Ponds.
 
The idea that having a home and Home series with Duke is anything but good for the program is kind of crazy.

Actually, all kinds of crazy.
 
[quote="IDRAFT" post=320031]The idea that having a home and Home series with Duke is anything but good for the program is kind of crazy.

Actually, all kinds of crazy.[/quote]

Thank you!
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=320003]Drawing a nice crowd to MSG obviously requires Johnnies to be good, but another factor is depth of alumni base of opposition living in NYC area. Michigan fits that aspect well for example, as does Cuse, North Carolina and Duke. UConn will improve under Hurley and fans, as obnoxious as they are, travel well when team is good. I much prefer a solid MSG crowd even if amply filled by opposition. It just adds to atmosphere. To me, teams like West Virginia or ASU are solid programs, but count on a half empty MSG, especially if SJU is only decent.[/quote]

You nailed it. There are only a handful of teams that will help sell out (or nearly sell out) MSG in down years, including Duke, UNC, Cuse, Michigan (maybe MSU too) and UConn.

IMO, we need to have one of those teams at MSG every year. That means two H&Hs. This year was absolutely pathetic having only Princeton OOC.

UConn is the only one from that group I'm pretty confident would play us, however I think we could get one out of the other 5/6 teams as well.

We play at MSG.... really how hard could this be? If I were making the schedule, I'd focus on the blue bloods with NYC fans first (Duke/UNC/MSU/UM) and then go for the more likely regional rivals (Cuse/UConn). If for some reason none of those teams work, then focus on Louisville/Kentucky/UVA. It's inexcusable that Hall is playing teams like Kentucky and Louisville at MSG while we aren't.

Also worth noting that our game vs a crappy Georgetown attracted nearly 18K, but of course in recent years hasn't attracted as many fans. Duke isn't necessary but we do need to play another big time team with a large NYC alumni base, or at worst a semi-regional top tier team like UK.
 
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