(POST-GAME) @Butler, Sat. Jan. 19, 4:30pm, FOX / 570AM

[quote="Ray Morgan" post=316488][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316471]20-10 (8-10) is what I expect at this point. Not good enough for tourney. I would be hopeful for the BET, but this team just cannot get any consistency and we have a long history of bowing out early in the BET. Really got fooled again and thought this year would be different. I'm going to have to start treating SJ like the Mets. Don't ever buy the hype, just assume the worst and hope for best. This way it's not as disappointing. This is not the ACC, these are beatable teams we consistently lose to. Down year for conference and we still can't break through even with this roster speaks volumes.[/quote]

There were plenty of warning signs for those who don't wear rose colored glasses, even before the season started. No size was number one, although the lack of bench strength was a little unexpected. Then there were last minute victories against so-so VCU and Georgia Tech, and closer than expected wins against mid majors. All at home or on neutral courts. We all hoped that the close games were us playing down to our competition. As for a down year, perhaps at the top, yes. Only 2 ranked teams at the moment., and no one near the top 10. But Depaul is surprisingly good, and the teams at the bottom, including us at the moment, all have talented rosters that can beat you on any given night. Forget the hype machine. Look at the roster, see the lack of size and depth, and not making the dance could never be unimaginable. I still believe that it's more likely we go on a big losing streak than a nice win streak. That's what happens to teams with exploitable deficiencies. Season not over, but margin for error gone, and back up plan for Big East tournament run looking unlikely.[/quote]

Bowling Green, Cal, GaTech and VCU were all red flags but the first red flag may have been the scrimmage loss to Rhode Island. ;)
Not playing the freshmen early also gave hints that any injury would have a big impact. Trimble has been a non factor and the fact he is being used as a 6th man just validates the lack of bench talent. The comparison between the Butler bench and ours shows how this staff has had a very hard time constructing a complete competitive roster in comparison to the rest of the conference. We have Wright and Caraher along with Steere, and a bunch of other untested players to support Figueroa next season. Without any major impact addition like Precious the team's star power will be greatly reduced when Ponds leaves. How the 5 -out positionless game will be beneficial with that roster remains to be seen.
All the players mentioned above will need to be coached up. There would have to be a major coaching addition to the staff for that to happen.
 
[quote="RedStormNC" post=316438]Very good teams find ways to win on the road. We are 19 games in and are not a very good team. Our OOC record is misleading. Our Big East record tells us who we are.

Talented but under achieving starting 5
Only one of them plays consistently hard & heady (LJ)
No bench which is on Mullin

I can't see how we do better than 9-9 and that will be a stretch, including more draining and head scratching losses like yesterday.

If Mullin cannot get this team to NCAA, we are screwed, as his future will be in jeopardy and he'll be lame duck coach that will make recruiting non existent. Cragg may not want that so who knows about year 5 or 6.

This game killed what should be an enjoyable weekend.

Step up boys....[/quote]

But we ever have a bench? No, it's just the same crap every damn year.

If no NCAA tourny, then why shouldn't he get canned, because of what he did 35yrs ago as a player?
Screw that. 4 years of nothing would be a disgrace, and don't use the bs "when he got here the cup board was bare." excuse.
There are no excuses this year. NCAA or BUST.
 
[quote="oldschool Redmen" post=316497][quote="RedStormNC" post=316438]Very good teams find ways to win on the road. We are 19 games in and are not a very good team. Our OOC record is misleading. Our Big East record tells us who we are.

Talented but under achieving starting 5
Only one of them plays consistently hard & heady (LJ)
No bench which is on Mullin

I can't see how we do better than 9-9 and that will be a stretch, including more draining and head scratching losses like yesterday.

If Mullin cannot get this team to NCAA, we are screwed, as his future will be in jeopardy and he'll be lame duck coach that will make recruiting non existent. Cragg may not want that so who knows about year 5 or 6.

This game killed what should be an enjoyable weekend.

Step up boys....[/quote]

But we ever have a bench? No, it's just the same crap every damn year.

If no NCAA tourny, then why shouldn't he get canned, because of what he did 35yrs ago as a player?
Screw that. 4 years of nothing would be a disgrace, and don't use the bs "when he got here the cup board was bare." excuse.
There are no excuses this year. NCAA or BUST.[/quote]

The only way Mullin should stay if he doesn’t make the NCAA Tournament is if by some miracle he is still able to get Precious here. Otherwise, we should make a change. But, I trust Cragg on this. We finally have a guy who knows how and when to make decisions like this.
 
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agree with first part, but not the second.

Cragg, does not have any direct experience in making a head coaching change of the flagship sport with a prominent name at the head. Trust though that he'd seek the input of others he respects if/when any action is decided upon to keep, extend or make a change
 
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[quote="Mean Gene" post=316499][quote="oldschool Redmen" post=316497][quote="RedStormNC" post=316438]Very good teams find ways to win on the road. We are 19 games in and are not a very good team. Our OOC record is misleading. Our Big East record tells us who we are.

Talented but under achieving starting 5
Only one of them plays consistently hard & heady (LJ)
No bench which is on Mullin

I can't see how we do better than 9-9 and that will be a stretch, including more draining and head scratching losses like yesterday.

If Mullin cannot get this team to NCAA, we are screwed, as his future will be in jeopardy and he'll be lame duck coach that will make recruiting non existent. Cragg may not want that so who knows about year 5 or 6.

This game killed what should be an enjoyable weekend.

Step up boys....[/quote]

But we ever have a bench? No, it's just the same crap every damn year.

If no NCAA tourny, then why shouldn't he get canned, because of what he did 35yrs ago as a player?
Screw that. 4 years of nothing would be a disgrace, and don't use the bs "when he got here the cup board was bare." excuse.
There are no excuses this year. NCAA or BUST.[/quote]

The only way Mullin should stay if he doesn’t make the NCAA Tournament is if by some miracle he is still able to get Precious here. Otherwise, we should make a change. But, I trust Cragg on this. We finally have a guy who knows how and when to make decisions like this.[/quote]

Lets see if mullin could avoid an avalanche in these next 4:
Creighton will look for revenge after getting smacked at Carnesecca arena, the same thing with Marquette, and both want revenge. Duke wants revenge from last year.
This Georgetown game could be the season

3-1 - With how this team looks now, they have a 10% chance of doing that.
2-2 - The best we could hope for in my opinion, and hope one of those losses is at Duke (none conf).
1-3 - We'll be on life support.
0-4 - Dead

If Mullin gets canned, then please no more big names, we seen what happened with Lavin, and Mullin.
I'd offer the Buffalo coach.
 
[quote="Mean Gene" post=316499][quote="oldschool Redmen" post=316497][quote="RedStormNC" post=316438]Very good teams find ways to win on the road. We are 19 games in and are not a very good team. Our OOC record is misleading. Our Big East record tells us who we are.

Talented but under achieving starting 5
Only one of them plays consistently hard & heady (LJ)
No bench which is on Mullin

I can't see how we do better than 9-9 and that will be a stretch, including more draining and head scratching losses like yesterday.

If Mullin cannot get this team to NCAA, we are screwed, as his future will be in jeopardy and he'll be lame duck coach that will make recruiting non existent. Cragg may not want that so who knows about year 5 or 6.

This game killed what should be an enjoyable weekend.

Step up boys....[/quote]

But we ever have a bench? No, it's just the same crap every damn year.

If no NCAA tourny, then why shouldn't he get canned, because of what he did 35yrs ago as a player?
Screw that. 4 years of nothing would be a disgrace, and don't use the bs "when he got here the cup board was bare." excuse.
There are no excuses this year. NCAA or BUST.[/quote]

The only way Mullin should stay if he doesn’t make the NCAA Tournament is if by some miracle he is still able to get Precious here. Otherwise, we should make a change. But, I trust Cragg on this. We finally have a guy who knows how and when to make decisions like this.[/quote]

I do not believe that one player will transform the program or solve the underlying problems.
 
[quote="oldschool Redmen" post=316502][quote="Mean Gene" post=316499][quote="oldschool Redmen" post=316497][quote="RedStormNC" post=316438]Very good teams find ways to win on the road. We are 19 games in and are not a very good team. Our OOC record is misleading. Our Big East record tells us who we are.

Talented but under achieving starting 5
Only one of them plays consistently hard & heady (LJ)
No bench which is on Mullin

I can't see how we do better than 9-9 and that will be a stretch, including more draining and head scratching losses like yesterday.

If Mullin cannot get this team to NCAA, we are screwed, as his future will be in jeopardy and he'll be lame duck coach that will make recruiting non existent. Cragg may not want that so who knows about year 5 or 6.

This game killed what should be an enjoyable weekend.

Step up boys....[/quote]

But we ever have a bench? No, it's just the same crap every damn year.

If no NCAA tourny, then why shouldn't he get canned, because of what he did 35yrs ago as a player?
Screw that. 4 years of nothing would be a disgrace, and don't use the bs "when he got here the cup board was bare." excuse.
There are no excuses this year. NCAA or BUST.[/quote]

The only way Mullin should stay if he doesn’t make the NCAA Tournament is if by some miracle he is still able to get Precious here. Otherwise, we should make a change. But, I trust Cragg on this. We finally have a guy who knows how and when to make decisions like this.[/quote]

Lets see if mullin could avoid an avalanche in these next 4:
Creighton will look for revenge after getting smacked at Carnesecca arena, the same thing with Marquette, and both want revenge. Duke wants revenge from last year.
This Georgetown game could be the season

3-1 - With how this team looks now, they have a 10% chance of doing that.
2-2 - The best we could hope for in my opinion, and hope one of those losses is at Duke (none conf).
1-3 - We'll be on life support.
0-4 - Dead

If Mullin gets canned, then please no more big names, we seen what happened with Lavin, and Mullin.
I'd offer the Buffalo coach.[/quote]

Totally agree! Much more important than a big name is someone who knows what they are doing, is willing to put in the work required and will surround himself with staff who compliment his talents.
 
[quote="oldschool Redmen" post=316502][quote="Mean Gene" post=316499][quote="oldschool Redmen" post=316497][quote="RedStormNC" post=316438]Very good teams find ways to win on the road. We are 19 games in and are not a very good team. Our OOC record is misleading. Our Big East record tells us who we are.

Talented but under achieving starting 5
Only one of them plays consistently hard & heady (LJ)
No bench which is on Mullin

I can't see how we do better than 9-9 and that will be a stretch, including more draining and head scratching losses like yesterday.

If Mullin cannot get this team to NCAA, we are screwed, as his future will be in jeopardy and he'll be lame duck coach that will make recruiting non existent. Cragg may not want that so who knows about year 5 or 6.

This game killed what should be an enjoyable weekend.

Step up boys....[/quote]

But we ever have a bench? No, it's just the same crap every damn year.

If no NCAA tourny, then why shouldn't he get canned, because of what he did 35yrs ago as a player?
Screw that. 4 years of nothing would be a disgrace, and don't use the bs "when he got here the cup board was bare." excuse.
There are no excuses this year. NCAA or BUST.[/quote]

The only way Mullin should stay if he doesn’t make the NCAA Tournament is if by some miracle he is still able to get Precious here. Otherwise, we should make a change. But, I trust Cragg on this. We finally have a guy who knows how and when to make decisions like this.[/quote]

Lets see if mullin could avoid an avalanche in these next 4:
Creighton will look for revenge after getting smacked at Carnesecca arena, the same thing with Marquette, and both want revenge. Duke wants revenge from last year.
This Georgetown game could be the season

3-1 - With how this team looks now, they have a 10% chance of doing that.
2-2 - The best we could hope for in my opinion, and hope one of those losses is at Duke (none conf).
1-3 - We'll be on life support.
0-4 - Dead

If Mullin gets canned, then please no more big names, we seen what happened with Lavin, and Mullin.
I'd offer the Buffalo coach.[/quote]

But we don't want revenge for losses, just our opponents?
 
[quote="ron " post=316493][quote="Roamer" post=316487]It’s clear that the Mullin experiment will turn out to be another failure. Sorry but as far as coaching goes and staff Lavin was light years ahead of Mullin and so was Jarvis. Being a loyal fan for this product is insanity.[/quote]

In Lavin's case, it was Dunlap who made the difference in most of his tenure.[/quote]

So the fact that he hired a legit coach as an assistant is going to be held against him? Not sure if thats what your saying but it has been said before. This is what assistant coaches are for, recruiting and/or to help with your weaknesses. Lavin was a recruiter so he needed an X and Os guy. Its a credit to him that he put his ego aside and hired Dunlap who is a better coach. John Beilein has always been known as an offensive guy; he hired Yaklich who can coach defense and Michigan went from a really good program to an elite one right now. This is pretty normal stuff in CBB.
 
[quote="Dan V" post=316507][quote="ron " post=316493][quote="Roamer" post=316487]It’s clear that the Mullin experiment will turn out to be another failure. Sorry but as far as coaching goes and staff Lavin was light years ahead of Mullin and so was Jarvis. Being a loyal fan for this product is insanity.[/quote]

In Lavin's case, it was Dunlap who made the difference in most of his tenure.[/quote]

So the fact that he hired a legit coach as an assistant is going to be held against him? Not sure if thats what your saying but it has been said before. This is what assistant coaches are for, recruiting and/or to help with your weaknesses. Lavin was a recruiter so he needed an X and Os guy. Its a credit to him that he put his ego aside and hired Dunlap who is a better coach. John Beilein has always been known as an offensive guy; he hired Yaklich who can coach defense and Michigan went from a really good program to an elite one right now. This is pretty normal stuff in CBB.[/quote]

I agree with you. A smart coach knows both his strengths and weaknesses and hires assistants who are good in the areas that are not his strengths. They do not hire their friends simply because they are his friends.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=316496][quote="Ray Morgan" post=316488][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316471]20-10 (8-10) is what I expect at this point. Not good enough for tourney. I would be hopeful for the BET, but this team just cannot get any consistency and we have a long history of bowing out early in the BET. Really got fooled again and thought this year would be different. I'm going to have to start treating SJ like the Mets. Don't ever buy the hype, just assume the worst and hope for best. This way it's not as disappointing. This is not the ACC, these are beatable teams we consistently lose to. Down year for conference and we still can't break through even with this roster speaks volumes.[/quote]

There were plenty of warning signs for those who don't wear rose colored glasses, even before the season started. No size was number one, although the lack of bench strength was a little unexpected. Then there were last minute victories against so-so VCU and Georgia Tech, and closer than expected wins against mid majors. All at home or on neutral courts. We all hoped that the close games were us playing down to our competition. As for a down year, perhaps at the top, yes. Only 2 ranked teams at the moment., and no one near the top 10. But Depaul is surprisingly good, and the teams at the bottom, including us at the moment, all have talented rosters that can beat you on any given night. Forget the hype machine. Look at the roster, see the lack of size and depth, and not making the dance could never be unimaginable. I still believe that it's more likely we go on a big losing streak than a nice win streak. That's what happens to teams with exploitable deficiencies. Season not over, but margin for error gone, and back up plan for Big East tournament run looking unlikely.[/quote]

Bowling Green, Cal, GaTech and VCU were all red flags but the first red flag may have been the scrimmage loss to Rhode Island. ;)
Not playing the freshmen early also gave hints that any injury would have a big impact. Trimble has been a non factor and the fact he is being used as a 6th man just validates the lack of bench talent. The comparison between the Butler bench and ours shows how this staff has had a very hard time constructing a complete competitive roster in comparison to the rest of the conference. We have Wright and Caraher along with Steere, and a bunch of other untested players to support Figueroa next season. Without any major impact addition like Precious the team's star power will be greatly reduced when Ponds leaves. How the 5 -out positionless game will be beneficial with that roster remains to be seen.
All the players mentioned above will need to be coached up. There would have to be a major coaching addition to the staff for that to happen.[/quote]

Wait. I'm confused, aren't you the same guy who posted that you thought Mullin had improved as a coach?
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=316509][quote="Class of 72" post=316496][quote="Ray Morgan" post=316488][quote="Mike Zaun" post=316471]20-10 (8-10) is what I expect at this point. Not good enough for tourney. I would be hopeful for the BET, but this team just cannot get any consistency and we have a long history of bowing out early in the BET. Really got fooled again and thought this year would be different. I'm going to have to start treating SJ like the Mets. Don't ever buy the hype, just assume the worst and hope for best. This way it's not as disappointing. This is not the ACC, these are beatable teams we consistently lose to. Down year for conference and we still can't break through even with this roster speaks volumes.[/quote]

There were plenty of warning signs for those who don't wear rose colored glasses, even before the season started. No size was number one, although the lack of bench strength was a little unexpected. Then there were last minute victories against so-so VCU and Georgia Tech, and closer than expected wins against mid majors. All at home or on neutral courts. We all hoped that the close games were us playing down to our competition. As for a down year, perhaps at the top, yes. Only 2 ranked teams at the moment., and no one near the top 10. But Depaul is surprisingly good, and the teams at the bottom, including us at the moment, all have talented rosters that can beat you on any given night. Forget the hype machine. Look at the roster, see the lack of size and depth, and not making the dance could never be unimaginable. I still believe that it's more likely we go on a big losing streak than a nice win streak. That's what happens to teams with exploitable deficiencies. Season not over, but margin for error gone, and back up plan for Big East tournament run looking unlikely.[/quote]

Bowling Green, Cal, GaTech and VCU were all red flags but the first red flag may have been the scrimmage loss to Rhode Island. ;)
Not playing the freshmen early also gave hints that any injury would have a big impact. Trimble has been a non factor and the fact he is being used as a 6th man just validates the lack of bench talent. The comparison between the Butler bench and ours shows how this staff has had a very hard time constructing a complete competitive roster in comparison to the rest of the conference. We have Wright and Caraher along with Steere, and a bunch of other untested players to support Figueroa next season. Without any major impact addition like Precious the team's star power will be greatly reduced when Ponds leaves. How the 5 -out positionless game will be beneficial with that roster remains to be seen.
All the players mentioned above will need to be coached up. There would have to be a major coaching addition to the staff for that to happen.[/quote]

Wait. I'm confused, aren't you the same guy who posted that you thought Mullin had improved as a coach?[/quote]

In his defense when you start at 0 there is nowhere to go but up. Question is how long is the school willing to wait. This is year 4 if we dont make the dance an evaluation of the coaching staff is in order.
 
The Buffalo Coach ? Oates ? What makes you think he will recruit any better than Mullin ? Getting players in lower echelon leagues doesn’t mean they will have BE talent . After Lavin’s First excellent recruiting class , he had a tough time getting Players in the top 100 to come here . Jordan ? A huge disappointment. . Obepka ? A equally disappointing player . Simon , Clark, Ponds , Figueroa , Heron all have the pedigree of being highly sought Players . The difficulty is the lack of a BE Big man . And , we have had a tough time getting all 5 guys to play well at the same time . Plus , Ponds has altered his game to try and be more inclusive of the 4 other guys . I am not sure we shouldn’t let Ponds concentrate on just scoring and not try to be all things at once . We lack a truly lights out shooter , which many of our opponents in the BE have . Even one off the Bench . Dixon might have been that guy as he could shoot . Maybe too much was made of his size and defensive limitations .
 
Mullin's going to get another 3-4yrs here at minimum if he wants them. The school most certainly won't get rid of him after this year, unless something completely unrelated to wins-losses occur.
 
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[quote="ron " post=316504][quote="oldschool Redmen" post=316502][quote="Mean Gene" post=316499][quote="oldschool Redmen" post=316497][quote="RedStormNC" post=316438]Very good teams find ways to win on the road. We are 19 games in and are not a very good team. Our OOC record is misleading. Our Big East record tells us who we are.

Talented but under achieving starting 5
Only one of them plays consistently hard & heady (LJ)
No bench which is on Mullin

I can't see how we do better than 9-9 and that will be a stretch, including more draining and head scratching losses like yesterday.

If Mullin cannot get this team to NCAA, we are screwed, as his future will be in jeopardy and he'll be lame duck coach that will make recruiting non existent. Cragg may not want that so who knows about year 5 or 6.

This game killed what should be an enjoyable weekend.

Step up boys....[/quote]

But we ever have a bench? No, it's just the same crap every damn year.

If no NCAA tourny, then why shouldn't he get canned, because of what he did 35yrs ago as a player?
Screw that. 4 years of nothing would be a disgrace, and don't use the bs "when he got here the cup board was bare." excuse.
There are no excuses this year. NCAA or BUST.[/quote]

The only way Mullin should stay if he doesn’t make the NCAA Tournament is if by some miracle he is still able to get Precious here. Otherwise, we should make a change. But, I trust Cragg on this. We finally have a guy who knows how and when to make decisions like this.[/quote]

Lets see if mullin could avoid an avalanche in these next 4:
Creighton will look for revenge after getting smacked at Carnesecca arena, the same thing with Marquette, and both want revenge. Duke wants revenge from last year.
This Georgetown game could be the season

3-1 - With how this team looks now, they have a 10% chance of doing that.
2-2 - The best we could hope for in my opinion, and hope one of those losses is at Duke (none conf).
1-3 - We'll be on life support.
0-4 - Dead

If Mullin gets canned, then please no more big names, we seen what happened with Lavin, and Mullin.
I'd offer the Buffalo coach.[/quote]

Totally agree! Much more important than a big name is someone who knows what they are doing, is willing to put in the work required and will surround himself with staff who compliment his talents.[/quote]

Nate Oats of. Buffalo would be a very good choice.
 
[quote="Dan V" post=316507][quote="ron " post=316493][quote="Roamer" post=316487]It’s clear that the Mullin experiment will turn out to be another failure. Sorry but as far as coaching goes and staff Lavin was light years ahead of Mullin and so was Jarvis. Being a loyal fan for this product is insanity.[/quote]

In Lavin's case, it was Dunlap who made the difference in most of his tenure.[/quote]

So the fact that he hired a legit coach as an assistant is going to be held against him? Not sure if thats what your saying but it has been said before. This is what assistant coaches are for, recruiting and/or to help with your weaknesses. Lavin was a recruiter so he needed an X and Os guy. Its a credit to him that he put his ego aside and hired Dunlap who is a better coach. John Beilein has always been known as an offensive guy; he hired Yaklich who can coach defense and Michigan went from a really good program to an elite one right now. This is pretty normal stuff in CBB.[/quote]hiring Dunlap was smart. I’ve always argued you should hire pieces who compliment you. I believe Mitch is more of a duplicate of Mullin. We could use a big man coach, an xo,guy and another recruiter. If we don’t make the tourney this year, it won’t look good for Mullin and I believe some changes will be made.
 
[quote="Jack Williams" post=316249][quote="Paultzman" post=316247]Kamar Baldwin had 30 on 18 shots. Ponds went for 20 on 19 shots.[/quote]

Was disappointed with how it seemed like we didn’t even know Baldwin is their guy. It’s the one thing everyone knows about Butler. We’ve done great jobs on Howard, Powell this year cause you could tell stopping them was a huge part of the gameplan. We didn’t really seem ready for Baldwin[/quote]

This isn't valid criticism. Unlike Tucker we marked Baldwin all night and defended him. He's really good and some nights guys like that are just on. He hit some very difficult and even some ill-advised shots. He also beat us off the dribble plenty.

Ponds was driving all night and only got 3 ft attempts! Baldwin drove significantly less and got every call and 10 attempts.
 
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Wish we knew what happened with missing on Femi.
Were we ever truly ‘in’ on the guy and missed for some reason, or was he put off by our style of hyper-guard/wing play?
 
[quote="Chicago Days" post=316516]Wish we knew what happened with missing on Femi.
Were we ever truly ‘in’ on the guy and missed for some reason, or was he put off by our style of hyper-guard/wing play?[/quote]
SJU was first team on him, but DP was more aggressive & I will leave it at that. Water under bridge at this point.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=316517][quote="Chicago Days" post=316516]Wish we knew what happened with missing on Femi.
Were we ever truly ‘in’ on the guy and missed for some reason, or was he put off by our style of hyper-guard/wing play?[/quote]
SJU was first team on him, but DP was more aggressive & I will leave it at that. Water under bridge at this point.[/quote]

Yeah, thanks Paultz. You’re right.
Just being wistful in my ‘funk’ today. Lol.
 
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