Posh or Ponds?

I’d take Posh.  Ponds was only interested in offense and gambled for steals which left the defense in a bad spot.  He was just lazy on defense.  I recall a game against Georgetown where he drove to the hoop, missed, and then complained to the ref while jogging back on defense.  I believe it was McClung ending up on the other end passing the ball to a wide open big for a dunk.  I’d like to say it was a fast break basket but it wasn’t.  It was 4 guys playing D against 5.  I also recall another game where he did the same thing and all nine guys on the floor passed him on the way to the other end while he jogged and complained about a no call.  The other team  scored on the other end.  Under Mullin there was no accountability.  Posh plays with passion and heart on both ends of the floor.  That last play against Monmouth was a perfect example.  He plays to win the game, while Ponds played to put on a show.  If Ponds played on both ends with half the heart Posh does, he’d be in the NBA.  Ponds was gifted offensively but it felt at times like he played for himself, while Posh plays for the team.  I’d take Posh, he’s the type of player you want in your program.  All gas, no brake.
 
mjmaherjr post=446394 said:
Posh just wish Ponds had better coaching 
 
I agree MJ. In Shamorie's last year here, he was not in very good shape and was not held accountable. I believe that if he had stayed for his senior year, with Coach Anderson, he would be considered one of our all time greats and been drafted.

Some may say that he could not have played for coach Anderson, I disagree. Good players will rise to coaches expectations of them and Shamorie was definitely a very good player. I also believe that he would have benefited from Coach Anderson's hands on, familial approach.

As for Ponds vs Alexander, I ain't touching that. They have been fine representatives of our school. I wish both of them the very best as their journeys continue.

 
 
What bothers me a little is that we sometimes have a close to the surface disdain for kids who didn't perform as well as we'd expect and who somehow let us down.

We rarely hear Panther be critical of a kid no matter what, even with off the court problems.  He knows many of them, the pressures they face, and is supportive.  It's a good way to be, and a good model for the rest of us.
 
panther2 post=446435 said:
mjmaherjr post=446394 said:
Posh just wish Ponds had better coaching 

 
I agree MJ. In Shamorie's last year here, he was not in very good shape and was not held accountable. I believe that if he had stayed for his senior year, with Coach Anderson, he would be considered one of our all time greats and been drafted.

Some may say that he could not have played for coach Anderson, I disagree. Good players will rise to coaches expectations of them and Shamorie was definitely a very good player. I also believe that he would have benefited from Coach Anderson's hands on, familial approach.

As for Ponds vs Alexander, I ain't touching that. They have been fine representatives of our school. I wish both of them the very best as their journeys continue.


 
During his time here, I was in frequent contact with GSJ.   Staff was acutely aware that Ponds main objective was to become an NBA player, as almost all D1 players have, but with the talent to back it up.   Ponds was not an easy kid to coach, because so many people were in his ear about what he had to do to get to he NBA first round.   GSJ told me that he admired Chris encouraging Ponds to to go NBA workouts after his sophomore year, but knew Ponds wasn't ready for the NBA at that point.  When Ponds returned, he went over the scouting reports with Shamorie, and they would work on those things he needed to improve upon to become a first round pick. 

Basically they were: Forget about points per game, increase assists, lower turnovers, improve shooting percentage, and win games.   In essence, become a complete, more efficient player that could lead SJU into a successful season.

When we got off to a 12-0 start, Ponds looked new and improved.  His game was more refined, and people noticed.   Ponds may not have been in incredible shape, but let's not confuse him with Trimble, who had a weight problem and had to work hard to keep it off.   

My take is that when his teammates went into a prolonged shooting slump, Ponds tried to shoulder too much of the offense.   Of course he was keyed on.  The guy who could take almost anyone one on one, now found lanes clogged with defenders who dared any other Johnny to shoot.   Instead of dazzling layups, Ponds often found himself in a tangle of defenders, threw up garbage, complained he was getting fouled to no avail.   When he shot from the outside, he often took what the defense gave him - shots way beyond the arc. 

Just like that his season unraveled, and his NBA chances dissipated.    He was and still is, a big time talent, as evidenced by his G league successes.   

I'm not sure what a coach can do when his entire team cannot make a wide open 18 foot shot and teams pack it in so the hoop is sealed off.   In the BET vs. Marquette and in Dayton vs. Az State, our problems were magnified.   We couldn't shoot, period.  If AZ state was any good, they'd have trampled us the way Marquette did.   Funny thing, though.  We swept Marquette during the regular season, once by 17 points.  

Mullins was not a good coach.   He was not, IMO, inattentive towards Ponds.

To the question, Posh is impossible to dislike on the court because of how hard he plays on both ends.   He's sort of a Pete Rose type who works so hard you can forget how talented he is.    Without choosing one over the other, Posh can impact a game without scoring more than 10 points.   Ponds basically needed to score although for a guy his size he could rebound very well on the defensive end.
 
Many good takes on this thread. 

Ponds was unstoppable offensively.  I remember at one point Wojo got tired of his defenders getting lit up and triple teamed Ponds. Didn't matter, he scored anyway.  

Had he played for Anderson and had his head on straight, I think he also would have been a lights out defender - as it was he was pretty good when he wanted to be. 

Posh is obviously not the same offensive player, but his defense and grit are off the charts.  It would be fun to see if he could limit Ponds scoring if they played one-on-one. 

As for who I would take for my team in a pickup game, it would depend on who else was in the pool. If there weren't other scoring options available, I'd take Ponds since then I'd know where my points were coming from. But if I could get another scorer, then I might very well take Posh to shut down the other team's scorer and feed mine. 

And I agree with ESPKen that the best combination of both is Hatten. All three were worth the price of the ticket just to watch them play, but I'd pay more for a ticket to watch Hatten.  
 
I remember running into a NBA scout when Ponds was a junior and asking about him. He said point blank that Ponds didn't shoot it well enough from 3 to make the NBA.  After a decent .375 his first season, he finished with 25% and then 35%. Since he wasn't going to make the NBA on his defense, which was a liability, then his lack of a 3 point shot  may have been the deciding factor.

To be an all time, great, you need to be able to affect the outcome on both sides of the floor. Posh can do that. Ponds not as much. To me, an underrated player is Marcus Hatten. He could beat you on the glass, off the dribble, and, as we all know, with a big time steal and drive.
 
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Give me the guy who understands he isn't an NBA player and stays at SJU for four years. Like really good players at other programs do all the time. At Seton Hall alone they have had Delgado, Mamu, Powell and now Rhoden become huge factors as Seniors.

We know that wasn't Ponds, we will see if it's Posh. 
 
I’m a huge Posh fan. Hopefully the guy stays 4 years and is considered one of the greats when he graduates. I’d probably pick him over almost anybody to start building a team.

That being said, I have a soft spot for Ponds. I loved watching him when he was in a groove. Those 3 years without him would have made it really challenging to enjoy those teams. He was the whole show. That last season they had an extremely talented starting 5 but no depth.  The bench was literally Trimble all by himself. I think a big part of that team falling apart down the stretch was just them running out of gas. Ponds had his own issues with effort and discipline but those rosters didn’t really set him up for success either. I do think he’s one of “the greats.” Not Mullin-level obviously but he was the face of the program and a national name while at St Johns which I appreciate.
 
IDRAFT post=446462 said:
Give me the guy who understands he isn't an NBA player and stays at SJU for four years. Like really good players at other programs do all the time. At Seton Hall alone they have had Delgado, Mamu, Powell and now Rhoden become huge factors as Seniors.

We know that wasn't Ponds, we will see if it's Posh. 


So you're not in favor of a guy taking a chance on himself and trying to better his life?

Ponds taking bad shots, or not running back on a couple plays doesn't change the fact he was a Great here. Without ponds those teams would of been hot garbage. Funny how some remember a singular play but negate all the other great things he did here.

On your last point, if SJU does not have a successful season it would not surprise me if Posh is gone. IN this new world of transfers its highly likely
 
I choose Shamorie Alexander .   Ponds and Posh are 2 different players .  Both elite at what they do .   Posh has the benefit of having Champ on his team . A potential All American .        Ponds did not . In fact , he really had little support offensively for his 3 years here . Simon and Clark , nice young men , were limited on their offensive skills . That forced Ponds to basically do it all . And , for the most part , he did .  I dispute the notion he was lazy on defensive .  He usually outplayed Dwight Howard nearly every time he played Marquette . And , Howard couldn’t guard Ponds .                                                                   Also too , I dispute the idea that Mullin did not support Ponds and his NBA aspirations . To
the contrary , I think the opposite .                           In my mind , the obstacle that hurt Ponds the most in pursuing his NBA dream was his Size .  He is not the Proto type 6’3” inch long limbed player . Plus , he’s got a slight body frame .  Small bones .   Ponds , like Posh took a beating every time he went to the rack . He never got all the foul calls he deserved . Posh is fouled nearly every time he goes to the rim too . And , winds up on the floor .                                                             Lastly , Ponds had to do it all . PG , SG , Rebounder , steals , Etc .        Posh is a special player too .  At  6’ tall and despite a sturdier frame than Ponds , is not what the NBA wants in a PG either . Posh will earn $$$ playing pro somewhere but , not likely the NBA .  He also doesn’t have the Shot necessary . He may improve his percentage but , is not a natural shooter .              
    When all is said and done , we are fortunate to have both , Posh and Ponds play for St John’s .  They are different players with different skills . It’s like Apples and Oranges , one not better than the other . 
 
Redman#13 post=446472 said:
IDRAFT post=446462 said:
Give me the guy who understands he isn't an NBA player and stays at SJU for four years. Like really good players at other programs do all the time. At Seton Hall alone they have had Delgado, Mamu, Powell and now Rhoden become huge factors as Seniors.

We know that wasn't Ponds, we will see if it's Posh. 


So you're not in favor of a guy taking a chance on himself and trying to better his life?

Ponds taking bad shots, or not running back on a couple plays doesn't change the fact he was a Great here. Without ponds those teams would of been hot garbage. Funny how some remember a singular play but negate all the other great things he did here.

On your last point, if SJU does not have a successful season it would not surprise me if Posh is gone. IN this new world of transfers its highly likely

Where did I say he couldn’t take that chance? He can do whatever he wants - and did. 

What I did say that if Posh stayed four years the Senior Posh would be a much better player than the junior Ponds. 

And I agree the chances that happens at SJU are slim and none.
 
Beast of the East post=446436 said:
What bothers me a little is that we sometimes have a close to the surface disdain for kids who didn't perform as well as we'd expect and who somehow let us down.

We rarely hear Panther be critical of a kid no matter what, even with off the court problems.  He knows many of them, the pressures they face, and is supportive.  It's a good way to be, and a good model for the rest of us.
From somebody's now 25 year old doctoral dissertation

Weiner (1993), transposed his work on attribution theory as applied to student performance to offer another framework for understanding the ways in which clinicians may be attitudinally and experientially judging their patients. Weiner proposed a model for a general theory of social motivation founded on "the powerful and prevailing practice of judging others as responsible or not" (Weiner, 1993, p. 957).  Weiner holds that causal beliefs and the assignment of responsibility generate feelings of anger and sympathy, which in turn, direct social conduct toward others.  Weiner draws a comparison between achievement evaluation and stigmatization.  In his model, the student who does not do well because of lack of talent, i.e. is not responsible for not doing well, arouses sympathy in others whereas the student who does not do well because of lack of effort,is responsible for not doing well, evokes anger.

 
 
Hey--2 Guys from Brooklyn, what's to dislike about either of them.  This question is like who makes the best pizza in Brooklyn; is it Di Fara, Spumoni Gardens, Tontonno, Roberta's, Juliana's, F&F (Frankies Spuntimo).  It is all a question of your own taste; there is no right answer.
 
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Both were exciting players with different games. I would take one of each any day.
 
Posh is still developing and will be one of the greats at SJU once said and done, however, people need to respect Ponds game, he was able to take over the show single handedly with a cast of below average players.  Mullin barely played a 6 man rotation.  
 
I'll say this. As ESPKEN said. Hatten his junior and senior year was worth the price of admission. If Posh can improve his offensive game consistently oh man that will be special to watch
 
Ponds had an enormous amount of talent and I enjoyed watching him play.  That said, with the right coach and mentor, he could have been so much more.  
 
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