New SJU President: Rev. Brian J. Shanley, OP, President of Providence College

[quote="Mike Zaun" post=405084]I think having school choice is a positive. Some privates offer better alternatives to some public schools, especially in inner city areas. However, I will say that I know teachers in catholic schools and the dynamic is such that standards are lower than public since parents directly pay the tuition and thus almost always get their way (pushing students along, giving them better scores than deserved). Now, obviously public schools are funded by taxpayers, so technically parents pay public teacher salaries too, but not as directly. I've heard great things about Xavier, Chaminade, St. Anthony's, etc. however I have heard poor things about some others. You have a lot of high-powered families sending their kids to these schools, often lawyers, doctors, etc. so they have more power than the teacher. Administration will force the teacher to do whatever the parent wants, regardless of fairness. Teachers there often teach outside their content/certification area e.g. an Art teacher may be teaching Earth Science too. That's how they save on cost. Teachers in these schools make $30k and can easily burn out quickly with helicopter parents obsessing over every detail, while being asked to wear many hats. So there are upsides and downsides based on individual schools...choice can only help.[/quote]

NOTE: This post is only tangentially related to Father Shanley coming to St. John's. bypass if you'd like.

You are 1000% wrong about standards being lower in catholic schools than public. I am on the board at St. John's for the Institute for Catholic Schools, which includes membership from all three closeby dioceses including superintendents and auxiliary bishops. The data shows that in our area and across the country Catholic school kids outperform their public school counterparts. While you cannot discount parental involvement and ability to interest in paying tuition, Catholic schools have a long tradition of doing more with less money.

I am a product of public schools, my kids went to secondary catholic high schools and universities. In Catholic schools it is their way or the high way. In terms of discipline, things that wouldn't be reprimanded in public school (say an obscenity laced outburst) get a kid detention for a week. Things that get a kid expelled in Catholic school would barely be disciplined in public.

A friend of mine who taught 35 years in high school liked to say, "You can find anything you want a kid during gym." I asked him to explain, and he said, "when we suspect anything is being carried into school, during gym we open and inspect their lockers." You can't do that in public school.

Chaminade expelled 6 kids several years ago for running what they thought was an innocent small business - creating phony ID's for kids to buy alcohol. No hearing, no mercy, just expulsion.

Xavier (which I know alot about, Monte too of course, expelled a dozen kids at the very end of my son's freshmen year for stealing from the cafeteria, including some seniors just weeks away from graduation. I thought it was too harsh, but my son said, "Dad from day one they warned us about not taking '$12,000 muffins or burgers'.".

If a kid is failing, parents are REQUIRED to show up at open school night, with remedial work mandated. Parents don't show up, kid is suspended.

Dress codes I believe help kids come to school with an attitude to learn, and in co-ed schools girls can't dress to attract boys. Uniforms = uniformity.

At most Catholic schools, it's generally their way or the highway for parents. It's literally old school. I didn't like it, but tolerated it to an extent.
 
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Oh, trust me Beast, pound for pound in ratio of money invested, private wins out. Public schools get tons of money and don't produce that much for the investment. Was not saying all catholic schools were like what I described. But there are several that are as I described. I know a parent threatened to get a lawyer involved because they told the teacher they graded their son too strictly even though by the rubric, he did not score well. They also expect emails and calls answered by teachers on weekends. This is stuff I know for a fact happens at some. Both from parents and admin of school. Again, these teachers at these schools make $30k starting and have a reputation for being the kind of school where new teachers get jobs then try to get into public ASAP. Maybe this is not the majority case, but these things definitely happen at some. I do appreciate the uniforms, strict behavioral policies, etc. I think that helps shape better people in general.
 
Beast: My "Done", was not aimed at you.

"Done" was aimed at JSJ reminding that yesterday was Tuesday Giving day and donated to SJU,

I am fair enough about the college comparison stuff!

Getting back tot the thread, I am wishing Fr. Shanley all the best of luck in his upcoming new job and hoping for him to have all the success in the world.

Let's go St. John's University!
 
[quote="BrookJersey Redmen" post=405090]Beast: My "Done", was not aimed at you.

"Done" was aimed at JSJ reminding that yesterday was Tuesday Giving day and donated to SJU,

I am fair enough about the college comparison stuff!

Getting back tot the thread, I am wishing Fr. Shanley all the best of luck in his upcoming new job and hoping for him to have all the success in the world.

Let's go St. John's University![/quote]

I knew but didn't want to reply to an ever lengthening string. I'm with you about Shanley. I can't wait to meet him and see what I can do to help him raise the trajectory of St. John's.

For Shanley to be successful many of us will have to do heavier lifting than we are accustomed to.
 
My daughter goes to a Catholic elementary school that we like a lot even though I'm a non-believer.
But parents really rule the roost nowadays. And the administration and teachers (non of which are clergy) walk on eggshells.
Why?
Our diocese closed 5 schools last year and consolidated 3 others.
They are hanging on by a thread. And customer relations for a service/product that can be gotten free elsewhere is paramount.
 
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[quote="MainMan" post=405095]My daughter goes to a Catholic elementary school that we like a lot even though I'm a non-believer.
But parents really rule the roost nowadays. And the administration and teachers (non of which are clergy) walk on eggshells.
Why?
Our diocese closed 5 schools last year and consolidated 3 others.
They are hanging on by a thread. And customer relations for a service/product that can be gotten free elsewhere is paramount.[/quote]

Catholic primary schools in the suburbs are really under duress. Parents already pay hefty school taxes and can't afford the luxury of paying school taxes than can approach $10,000 per year plus Catholic high schools in the suburbs have very high entrollment. In the city, the reverse is true. Catholic primary schools are doing better, often because parents want a safer environment conducive to learning. I can say that in Catholic high schools, parents do not get their way in my experience.

They days of nuns teaching in Catholic primary school are mostly over. However, at Catholic high schools such as Chaminade, there are many brothers and some priests who teach there.
 
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My younger son's first job out of college was working for the New York Blood Center. He wound up driving the emergency response blood supply vehicle on 9/11. However, I am telling this story because he once had to run a blood drive in a New York City public school and he reported that in no classroom, on the way to a meeting in the staff lounge, did he see teaching or learning taking place.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=405085

Chaminade expelled 6 kids several years ago for running what they thought was an innocent small business - creating phony ID's for kids to buy alcohol. No hearing, no mercy, just expulsion.

.[/quote]
_____________

Tell the Chaminade parents that theirs sons were fortunate that Chamanide let their kids off easy..

The 6 could have been charged with a Class D Felony, Forgery 2nd, and Endangering the Welfare of a Child, a class A Misdemeanor.

Any of the Chaminade students who purchased the forged licenses could likewise have been charged with Possession of a Forged Instrument, a Class D Felony, and if they attempted to use the ID they could have been charged with Criminal Impersonation, a Class A Misdemeanor.
 
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[quote="otis" post=405132][quote="Beast of the East" post=405085

Chaminade expelled 6 kids several years ago for running what they thought was an innocent small business - creating phony ID's for kids to buy alcohol. No hearing, no mercy, just expulsion.

.[/quote]
_____________

Tell the Chaminade parents that theirs sons were fortunate that Chamanide let their kids off easy..

The 6 could have been charged with a Class D Felony, Forgery 2nd, and Endangering the Welfare of a Child, a class A Misdemeanor.

Any of the Chaminade students who purchased the forged licenses could likewise have been charged with Possession of a Forged Instrument, a Class D Felony, and if they attempted to use the ID they could have been charged with Criminal Impersonation, a Class A Misdemeanor.[/quote]

I agree totally. That's really important information to add, Otis. Thank you. I know someone very well who was underaged with phony ID and the state he was in had his NYS driver's license suspended as part of his penalty - it sounds totally wacky but it happened.

I tried to help that kid by sending his parents to another Catholic school, but they wouldn't take him. Thankfully for the kid, St. Francis Prep took him. He is a good kid who did a dumbass thing, and senior year worked out great for him at Prep. He made the football team, and went on to a 5 year MBA program.

Your caution is great.
 
[quote="panther2" post=404037][quote="Mike Zaun" post=403665]We are nowhere near PC in terms of academic perception right now. We accept almost all students who apply even with poor GPA's for undergrad. PC is quite selective. I have family who went there and I've been there several times. It's more like a VIllanova/BC type. Could be their cousin. Kids from rich families, great students, take academics seriously and emphasis on diversity comes after standards are met. Here it seems we just want to help 1st generation college students from poor backgrounds. That's a nice mission, but our academics will always be poor the longer that goes on. As I've said many times, our undergrad selectivity is a joke. We have pretty good graduate programs though and the standards are higher there than typical grad schools in the area. SJ requires interviews and GRE exams. Adelphi, Hofstra, etc. don't. So we are able to keep a bit of prestige in graduate studies.[/quote]



Mike, why does it have to be poor kids and 1st generation college students? What about the poor performing Catholic High School graduates who use St Johns as a fail safe option? Have you even considered that they may be the problem? Your view of the academic problems at ST Johns is extremely "classist". It is very easy to blame those who are not from those same cultural background as you for the problems that the university is facing.[/quote]

I don't see the original comment this way. I don't conflate poor student with low income student. The problem with St. John's approach is that we admit low income students regardless of their grades, I think just because we want to say we admit low income students. I'm all for making SJU accessible to low and mid-income students, but they have to be good students. They need to at least be carrying a B average in high school (which should apply regardless of income). SJU uses it's mission as a crutch to bring in far too many poor-performing students.
 
Outside of SAT score ranges, looking at GPA only, the last Common Data Set St. John's has posted on their website is from 2017-2018.

[URL]https://www.stjohns.edu/sites/default/files/2019-02/cds_2017-2018.web_.pdf[/URL]

GPA
3.75+: 26%
3.50-3.74%: 18%
3.25-3.49%: 20%
3.00-3.24%: 17%
2.50-2.99%: 13%
2.00-2.49%: 6%

While we all want high rankings for St. John's - whether it be the basketball team or the university as a whole in for academics etc, I think most agree some of that is just for bragging rights. I think the bigger issue comes down to sustainability. So, while admitting "under performing" students, depending on ones definition may not help rankings, looking at above, you just can't cut off 19% of the students from enrollment without impacts to short term fiscal budgets. Needs to be a steady approach to student recruitment - and get better over time. I think the school is doing that as we've seen in the SAT scores going up over the last few years. Current range of the 25%-75% percentile is 1080-1300 (which is up from the 1060-1250 in the 2017-2018 data set).

My daughter is a HS senior, and in application season now. She applied to St. John's and was accepted last month with very strong merit scholarships as well as extra incentive for me being an alum. She has long time connection and is a huge St. John's basketball fan due to me. Unfortunately, despite her affinity for the school, it is not her top choice. While I would love to carry tradition, I also made sure to not have her feel limited to follow in dad's footsteps and allow her to create her own path. She'll still always be a basketball fan and like SJU no matter what.

So, for me it's about university sustainability and still ensuring we are holding to a mission statement that is worthy. If we can do both at same time, I'm OK sacrificing not being in top 100 of US News as much as that would be nice even if unrealistic. For every school that goes up, another must come down. Not easy when all are working to get better or hold the line.

50 to 150 more years would be nice for university to celebrate a 200 and 300 year milestone in 2170 or 2270.

Feeling good that Fr. Shanley will help navigate and set course for the next 5-10 years of that.
 
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[quote="RedStormNC" post=405905]Outside of SAT score ranges, looking at GPA only, the last Common Data Set St. John's has posted on their website is from 2017-2018.

[URL]https://www.stjohns.edu/sites/default/files/2019-02/cds_2017-2018.web_.pdf[/URL]

GPA
3.75+: 26%
3.50-3.74%: 18%
3.25-3.49%: 20%
3.00-3.24%: 17%
2.50-2.99%: 13%
2.00-2.49%: 6%

While we all want high rankings for St. John's - whether it be the basketball team or the university as a whole in for academics etc, I think most agree some of that is just for bragging rights. I think the bigger issue comes down to sustainability. So, while admitting "under performing" students, depending on ones definition may not help rankings, looking at above, you just can't cut off 19% of the students from enrollment without impacts to short term fiscal budgets. Needs to be a steady approach to student recruitment - and get better over time. I think the school is doing that as we've seen in the SAT scores going up over the last few years. Current range of the 25%-75% percentile is 1080-1300 (which is up from the 1060-1250 in the 2017-2018 data set).

[/quote]

Yes, SJU takes these 19% of poor students to take in the revenue. Which is why I said the school needs to downsize. The CPS college shouldn't have advertising and business and sociology programs with its own administration and professors and that are duplicative of programs in Tobin and the Liberal Arts college. The Staten Island programs also drag us down. Instead of 19% of sub-B students, cut it to less than 10% and all our SAT and retention numbers would jump up. Raise the floor. We are not helping these students who drop out within two years, take on debt, or are just here goofing around anyway. But we are damaging our reputation. SJU just isn't willing to make these changes.
 
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It may come as a surprise that there are over 6 million Pell grants annually, and 43% of all college students nationally receive Pell grants. While there are limits to family income in awarding these grants, they are not limited to "poor kids" and the awards span all races and ethnicities, AND academic qualifications.

If we are speaking about academic qualifications of students overall at St. John's, the discussion should be mostly about being more selective in not admitting kids that are a poor bet to graduate because of academic deficiencies, and saddling them with loans they can't repay easily without the earning power of a degree. If we include Pell recipients in the admissions discussion, it should be about admitting better qualified Pell recipients (as well as better qualified non-Pell recipients)
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=405089]Oh, trust me Beast, pound for pound in ratio of money invested, private wins out. Public schools get tons of money and don't produce that much for the investment. Was not saying all catholic schools were like what I described. But there are several that are as I described. I know a parent threatened to get a lawyer involved because they told the teacher they graded their son too strictly even though by the rubric, he did not score well. They also expect emails and calls answered by teachers on weekends. This is stuff I know for a fact happens at some. Both from parents and admin of school. Again, these teachers at these schools make $30k starting and have a reputation for being the kind of school where new teachers get jobs then try to get into public ASAP. Maybe this is not the majority case, but these things definitely happen at some. I do appreciate the uniforms, strict behavioral policies, etc. I think that helps shape better people in general.[/quote]

Mike, I am intimately aware of a lot of the plight of Catholic schools because of some of my charitable work. Catholic schools do have a huge problems with retention of teachers, simply because public schools are able to pay much more in salary. For Catholic schools it is almost impossible for them to hire minority candidates as teachers because they are in very high demand by public schools. There are a plethora of challenges for Catholic schools, yet for decades they have produced with amazing results, even in areas where public school kids are performing very poorly overall.

For those who are interested, St. John's is aware and helping. They give Catholic school teachers a 40% discount on tuition for graduate school, helping schools to have better qualified teachers on staff. They ALL, primary and secondary, need financial assistance to make ends meet. JSJ has done a lot to help students at a struggling Catholic HS in the NYC area. If you are so inclined, ask him how you can help too.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=406039]It may come as a surprise that there are over 6 million Pell grants annually, and 43% of all college students nationally receive Pell grants. While there are limits to family income in awarding these grants, they are not limited to "poor kids" and the awards span all races and ethnicities, AND academic qualifications.

If we are speaking about academic qualifications of students overall at St. John's, the discussion should be mostly about being more selective in not admitting kids that are a poor bet to graduate because of academic deficiencies, and saddling them with loans they can't repay easily without the earning power of a degree. If we include Pell recipients in the admissions discussion, it should be about admitting better qualified Pell recipients (as well as better qualified non-Pell recipients)[/quote]

The flip side of this analysis is overloading expenses on to STJ to affect remediation opportunities that would repair some of these students' academic deficits. Not a low risk endeavor and some of that task must be addressed by the elementary and high school programs that did not prepare these students properly, either for college or for alternate paths to productive economically viable adulthood.
 
Nice to speak about all the aid available and provided, but why is college so expensive?
 
[quote="RedStormNC" post=406085][quote="Knight" post=406067]Nice to speak about all the aid available and provided, but why is college so expensive?[/quote]

Good article in The Atlantic on this topic that I read a while back

[URL]https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/569884/[/URL][/quote]

Very good article. I see it as multi-pronged problem. US costs are higher per university employee, and I remember reading that over 25 years, the average school has double the infrastructure, vastly increasing costs. Then there are competitive amenities, health clubs, better landscaping, more expensive new buildings (D'Angelo is striking to me). Private universities in particular spent more on these amenities to attract students, and it helped to drive tuition up.

In terms of SJU, there are a number of board members in favor of tuition reduction and have been for a while. I guess we will see how Father Shanley feels about it and how that plays out.

Interesting that state schools are accepting more out of state students at triple the tuition to drive revenue up. They also accept more qualified out of state students, and with a smaller number of seats for in state applicants, quality of student also increases. I remember reading that schools love foreign students who often pay sticker price on tuition coming from wealthy families.

This was striking: "But in one of the only careful, recent studies on adult skills, the OECD’s Program for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies, Americans under age 35 with a bachelor’s degree performed below their similarly educated peers in 14 other countries on the test of practical math skills. In other words, they did only slightly better than high-school graduates in Finland. "

To me, college isn't the place for remedial learning. Many countries that offer free tuition (I have friends in the CZR, where colleges produce high quality grads) are highly selective, and you must be in the upper tier to get admitted to college. Quite frankly, the American myth is that college is for everyone. It's an elitist, academically snobbish attitude in my opinion. Having interviewed hundreds of new grads and intern candidates over the years, I would say that the bottom 25% at least at college grads wasted their money in college. Yes, they have a diploma, but many will struggle in the workplace even if they are fortunate enough to land jobs.

In a post Covid world, the next 3-5 years are very likely to be very difficult for new grads, considering they will be in competition with 2018-2020 for entry level type jobs in a shrunken economy. With all the work at home that's happening, companies in metro areas will figure out that more employees can permanently work from home, and they can hire at lower wages with qualified grads living in lower cost areas of the country.
 
[quote="jerseyshorejohnny" post=407292]https://vimeo.com/user64780155/download/489532341/911bffd8ff[/quote]
________

Great interview.

Fr. Shanley's best quotes in the interview:

"The image of St. John;s is tied up in hoops".

"St. John;'s is a leader in Catholic education in this country.

It is nice to hear the new President of the University recognize mens basketball as the school's billboard, and not shy away from calling the school a national leader.

Father Shanley is seemingly a Homerun selection.
 
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