Missing the point!

[paultzman]

Two things re WASJU's points. Sure it's possible that Lovett plays close to 35 if you're in the camp that Ellison and Mussini shouldn't be playing anywhere's near what they are or that Ponds will be a true frosh and need some time to develop. But Lovett is unlikely to be as good as any of the guys in the last post and those players were on teams with very little depth or played for Lou who didn't like going more than 7 or 8 deep. Here's my guesses for mins for next year:

Guard: Lovett-30, Ponds-25, Muss-15, Ellison-10
SF: Bashir-27, RF-13
Bigs: Sima-22, Yakwe-25, Owens-18, Williams-10, Ali-5
Transfer: Jones so he can play 25 somewhere and start working on his masters in architecture

I think pencilling in 10 min for Williams might be wishful thinking... we don't know what he has..

A chronically injured shoulder

 

[redmannorth]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed [/quote )

My last comment on this thread. Nothing could be further from the truth. Harrison's first year we were a completely new team with 6-7 players. For next season we are currently 12 deep and may add another player. Your comparison is way off base. And no one thinks we are or will ever be Kentucky. Our facilities will never rival theirs. However , with smart recruiting , roster management and player development we could put an excellent product on the floor.

 

[RedStormNC]

Is that Mullin siting on the scorers table in that Garden practice pic ? Warmup for coach too

Too bad they can't gave the paint in red for us.

 

[austour]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed next year.
Actually this is just silly unless you have Hamburger all Americans on your bench like Kentucky your best 3 players will generally play between 30-35 minutes. I forgot some of you think we will be Kentucky

Au contraire, I just think our best 3-4 players aren't nearly as good as you think they are going to be ergo I think playing them 30+ minutes exposes their deficiencies based on fatigue.

And any comparisons to a team/roster than had 6 scholarship players on it at the end of the season is patently ridiculous if not stupid.

Here's the roster makeup for that year.

Games 1-11: 7 scholarship players
Nuri quits
Game 12: 6 scholarship players
Amir becomes eligible
Games 12-25: 7 scholarship players
Malik quits
Games 26-34: 6 scholarship players

 

[logen]

For a frame of reference, there is not a player on what I consider the best 5 teams in the BE, Nova, X, PC, Butler, SHU averaging 35 minutes. Only Bentl, Dunn and Jones average more than 31. Lovett or anyone else won't come close to 35 IMO.

MINUTES PLAYED Cl GP Minutes Avg/G
1. DUNN, Kris-PC JR 14 511 36.5
2. SMITH-RIVERA, D.-GU SR 14 511 36.5
3. BENTIL, Ben-PC SO 14 506 36.1
4. ELLENSON, Henry-MU FR 13 468 36.0
5. ZIERDEN,Isaiah-CU JR 14 490 35.0
6. JONES, Roosevelt-BU SR 14 489 34.9
7. WATSON Jr.,Mo-CU JR 14 485 34.6
8. BULLOCK, Rodney-PC SO 14 478 34.1
9. ARCIDIACONO, Ryan-VU SR 13 438 33.7
10. DUNHAM, Kellen-BU SR 14 467 33.4

FWIW and splitting hairs but ESPN has lower minutes per game for all the players you list from the teams I referenced.

 

[austour]

For a frame of reference, there is not a player on what I consider the best 5 teams in the BE, Nova, X, PC, Butler, SHU averaging 35 minutes. Only Bentl, Dunn and Jones average more than 31. Lovett or anyone else won't come close to 35 IMO.

MINUTES PLAYED Cl GP Minutes Avg/G
1. DUNN, Kris-PC JR 14 511 36.5
2. SMITH-RIVERA, D.-GU SR 14 511 36.5
3. BENTIL, Ben-PC SO 14 506 36.1
4. ELLENSON, Henry-MU FR 13 468 36.0
5. ZIERDEN,Isaiah-CU JR 14 490 35.0
6. JONES, Roosevelt-BU SR 14 489 34.9
7. WATSON Jr.,Mo-CU JR 14 485 34.6
8. BULLOCK, Rodney-PC SO 14 478 34.1
9. ARCIDIACONO, Ryan-VU SR 13 438 33.7
10. DUNHAM, Kellen-BU SR 14 467 33.4

FWIW and splitting hairs but ESPN has lower minutes per game for all the players you list from the teams I referenced.

ESPN's stats are for the full schedule, TIS' are the conference games only. Guys will play more minutes in competitive conference games than they will against Incarnate Word, at least in most programs.

 

[we are sju]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed next year.
Actually this is just silly unless you have Hamburger all Americans on your bench like Kentucky your best 3 players will generally play between 30-35 minutes. I forgot some of you think we will be Kentucky

Au contraire, I just think our best 3-4 players aren't nearly as good as you think they are going to be ergo I think playing them 30+ minutes exposes their deficiencies based on fatigue.

And any comparisons to a team/roster than had 6 scholarship players on it at the end of the season is patently ridiculous if not stupid.

Again if the newcomers especially in the backcourt and Ahmed are not radically better than the returning players from perhaps the worst BE team ever than 15 wins is probably a pipe dream let alone sniffing the NIT. You want to sprinkle in Williams, Jones and Amir next year fine but that is not a recipe for any kind of good year. Good teams play 8 or 9 guys.
Last year we had no depth. True, but if you would have had this year's version of Mussini on last year's teams he would have only played when Jordan was on his sabbatical.

 

[austour]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed next year.
Actually this is just silly unless you have Hamburger all Americans on your bench like Kentucky your best 3 players will generally play between 30-35 minutes. I forgot some of you think we will be Kentucky

Au contraire, I just think our best 3-4 players aren't nearly as good as you think they are going to be ergo I think playing them 30+ minutes exposes their deficiencies based on fatigue.

And any comparisons to a team/roster than had 6 scholarship players on it at the end of the season is patently ridiculous if not stupid.

Again if the newcomers especially in the backcourt and Ahmed are not radically better than the returning players from perhaps the worst BE team ever than 15 wins is probably a pipe dream let alone sniffing the NIT. You want to sprinkle in Williams, Jones and Amir next year fine but that is not a recipe for any kind of good year. Good teams play 8 or 9 guys.
Last year we had no depth. True, but if you would have had this year's version of Mussini on last year's teams he would have only played when Jordan was on his sabbatical.

See, I'm not expecting a good year. And I'm kind of showing full year averages (Logen's vs. TIS) so those 10-12 players will get minutes early in the season and in any games that get out of hand both ways. Agree that if the team is good the bench may shorten, but I think it's another year of seeing who is going to be able to contribute in 17/18 to what is likely the next good team.

 

[logen]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed next year.
Actually this is just silly unless you have Hamburger all Americans on your bench like Kentucky your best 3 players will generally play between 30-35 minutes. I forgot some of you think we will be Kentucky

Au contraire, I just think our best 3-4 players aren't nearly as good as you think they are going to be ergo I think playing them 30+ minutes exposes their deficiencies based on fatigue.

And any comparisons to a team/roster than had 6 scholarship players on it at the end of the season is patently ridiculous if not stupid.

Again if the newcomers especially in the backcourt and Ahmed are not radically better than the returning players from perhaps the worst BE team ever than 15 wins is probably a pipe dream let alone sniffing the NIT. You want to sprinkle in Williams, Jones and Amir next year fine but that is not a recipe for any kind of good year. Good teams play 8 or 9 guys.
Last year we had no depth. True, but if you would have had this year's version of Mussini on last year's teams he would have only played when Jordan was on his sabbatical.

Your position has some merit if you assume Sima, Yakwe, Ellison, and Mussini, not to mention AA and Jones do not improve during the off-season. We shall see but I don't think that will be the case. I would not be surprised if we have 10 players average from the mid-teens to mid-twenties. Mullin I think clearly wants to play up-tempo on both ends of the court and you need a deep team to do that successfully. People want to ridicule this team and nitpick the coaching but ignore the fact that the staff had virtually no off-season with anything resembling a core team; even when staffs are changed there is normally a returning group of experienced players to ease the transition; this was all done on the fly. I expect a significantly more cohesive team next year. We shall see

 

[we are sju]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed next year.
Actually this is just silly unless you have Hamburger all Americans on your bench like Kentucky your best 3 players will generally play between 30-35 minutes. I forgot some of you think we will be Kentucky

Au contraire, I just think our best 3-4 players aren't nearly as good as you think they are going to be ergo I think playing them 30+ minutes exposes their deficiencies based on fatigue.

And any comparisons to a team/roster than had 6 scholarship players on it at the end of the season is patently ridiculous if not stupid.

Again if the newcomers especially in the backcourt and Ahmed are not radically better than the returning players from perhaps the worst BE team ever than 15 wins is probably a pipe dream let alone sniffing the NIT. You want to sprinkle in Williams, Jones and Amir next year fine but that is not a recipe for any kind of good year. Good teams play 8 or 9 guys.
Last year we had no depth. True, but if you would have had this year's version of Mussini on last year's teams he would have only played when Jordan was on his sabbatical.

Your position has some merit if you assume Sima, Yakwe, Ellison, and Mussini, not to mention AA and Jones do not improve during the off-season. We shall see but I don't think that will be the case. I would not be surprised if we have 10 players average from the mid-teens to mid-twenties. Mullin I think clearly wants to play up-tempo on both ends of the court and you need a deep team to do that successfully. People want to ridicule this team and nitpick the coaching but ignore the fact that the staff had virtually no off-season with anything resembling a core team; even when staffs are changed there is normally a returning group of experienced players to ease the transition; this was all done on the fly. I expect a significantly more cohesive team next year. We shall see

I expect them to improve, just maybe not so much in one season. All four have promise but they also have a lot of improvement to make. Took guys like Cain and Pointer four full years. I expect Lovett and Ahmed to be much more of a finished product and their minutes should reflect that. My only other point is I strongly believe in 8 or 9 man rotation where your best players play the most. If you have 10 guys that should play fine but I don't necessarily think that will be the case for us next season.

 

[logen]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed next year.
Actually this is just silly unless you have Hamburger all Americans on your bench like Kentucky your best 3 players will generally play between 30-35 minutes. I forgot some of you think we will be Kentucky

Au contraire, I just think our best 3-4 players aren't nearly as good as you think they are going to be ergo I think playing them 30+ minutes exposes their deficiencies based on fatigue.

And any comparisons to a team/roster than had 6 scholarship players on it at the end of the season is patently ridiculous if not stupid.

Again if the newcomers especially in the backcourt and Ahmed are not radically better than the returning players from perhaps the worst BE team ever than 15 wins is probably a pipe dream let alone sniffing the NIT. You want to sprinkle in Williams, Jones and Amir next year fine but that is not a recipe for any kind of good year. Good teams play 8 or 9 guys.
Last year we had no depth. True, but if you would have had this year's version of Mussini on last year's teams he would have only played when Jordan was on his sabbatical.

Your position has some merit if you assume Sima, Yakwe, Ellison, and Mussini, not to mention AA and Jones do not improve during the off-season. We shall see but I don't think that will be the case. I would not be surprised if we have 10 players average from the mid-teens to mid-twenties. Mullin I think clearly wants to play up-tempo on both ends of the court and you need a deep team to do that successfully. People want to ridicule this team and nitpick the coaching but ignore the fact that the staff had virtually no off-season with anything resembling a core team; even when staffs are changed there is normally a returning group of experienced players to ease the transition; this was all done on the fly. I expect a significantly more cohesive team next year. We shall see

I expect them to improve, just maybe not so much in one season. All four have promise but they also have a lot of improvement to make. Took guys like Cain and Pointer for full years. I expect Lovett and Ahmed to be much more of a finished product and their minutes should reflect that. My only other point is I strongly believe in 8 or 9 man rotation where your best players play the most. If you have 10 guys that should play fine but I don't necessarily think that will be the case for us next season.

I would say both Cain and Pointer were held back by their coaches more than they improved. From the time Cain came to SJU I thought he should have played over Buchanan and Lavin lucked out last year because by sheer numbers Pointer had to play major minutes. Anyway, I don't disagree with your basic premise, I just don't think the disparity in minutes is going to be anywhere near as dramatic as you do.

 

[Wolfie]

In my uneducated view, and excluding the lone Q-Mark recruit still possibly 'out there', we've got Lovett, Ponds, Mussini, sharing the backcourt, with RF / Ahmed / Yakwe / Alibegovic manning SF / PF and Sima / Owens at center.
With Lovett, Ponds, Mussini, RF, Ahmed, Yakwe, Sima , Owens, and Ellison 9 guys that will be competitive, more so, as the Season continues into BE Tourney Time.
No predictions, but I see a competitive team next year.

 

[we are sju]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed next year.
Actually this is just silly unless you have Hamburger all Americans on your bench like Kentucky your best 3 players will generally play between 30-35 minutes. I forgot some of you think we will be Kentucky

Au contraire, I just think our best 3-4 players aren't nearly as good as you think they are going to be ergo I think playing them 30+ minutes exposes their deficiencies based on fatigue.

And any comparisons to a team/roster than had 6 scholarship players on it at the end of the season is patently ridiculous if not stupid.

Again if the newcomers especially in the backcourt and Ahmed are not radically better than the returning players from perhaps the worst BE team ever than 15 wins is probably a pipe dream let alone sniffing the NIT. You want to sprinkle in Williams, Jones and Amir next year fine but that is not a recipe for any kind of good year. Good teams play 8 or 9 guys.
Last year we had no depth. True, but if you would have had this year's version of Mussini on last year's teams he would have only played when Jordan was on his sabbatical.

Your position has some merit if you assume Sima, Yakwe, Ellison, and Mussini, not to mention AA and Jones do not improve during the off-season. We shall see but I don't think that will be the case. I would not be surprised if we have 10 players average from the mid-teens to mid-twenties. Mullin I think clearly wants to play up-tempo on both ends of the court and you need a deep team to do that successfully. People want to ridicule this team and nitpick the coaching but ignore the fact that the staff had virtually no off-season with anything resembling a core team; even when staffs are changed there is normally a returning group of experienced players to ease the transition; this was all done on the fly. I expect a significantly more cohesive team next year. We shall see

I expect them to improve, just maybe not so much in one season. All four have promise but they also have a lot of improvement to make. Took guys like Cain and Pointer for full years. I expect Lovett and Ahmed to be much more of a finished product and their minutes should reflect that. My only other point is I strongly believe in 8 or 9 man rotation where your best players play the most. If you have 10 guys that should play fine but I don't necessarily think that will be the case for us next season.

I would say both Cain and Pointer were held back by their coaches more than they improved. From the time Cain came to SJU I thought he should have played over Buchanan and Lavin lucked out last year because by sheer numbers Pointer had to play major minutes. Anyway, I don't disagree with your basic premise, I just don't think the disparity in minutes is going to be anywhere near as dramatic as you do.

Off the main point but Cain thing seems like 20 / 20 hindsight. Cain was not a Louie Point guard in that he was quick, but whenever he played his first 3 seasons he struggled and fans booed him. Louie might have given him quick hooks but really no one expected his senior year.
I agree about Pointer and if the kid with fake transcript had been eligible he would not have been given the chance.

 

[logen]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed next year.
Actually this is just silly unless you have Hamburger all Americans on your bench like Kentucky your best 3 players will generally play between 30-35 minutes. I forgot some of you think we will be Kentucky

Au contraire, I just think our best 3-4 players aren't nearly as good as you think they are going to be ergo I think playing them 30+ minutes exposes their deficiencies based on fatigue.

And any comparisons to a team/roster than had 6 scholarship players on it at the end of the season is patently ridiculous if not stupid.

Again if the newcomers especially in the backcourt and Ahmed are not radically better than the returning players from perhaps the worst BE team ever than 15 wins is probably a pipe dream let alone sniffing the NIT. You want to sprinkle in Williams, Jones and Amir next year fine but that is not a recipe for any kind of good year. Good teams play 8 or 9 guys.
Last year we had no depth. True, but if you would have had this year's version of Mussini on last year's teams he would have only played when Jordan was on his sabbatical.

Your position has some merit if you assume Sima, Yakwe, Ellison, and Mussini, not to mention AA and Jones do not improve during the off-season. We shall see but I don't think that will be the case. I would not be surprised if we have 10 players average from the mid-teens to mid-twenties. Mullin I think clearly wants to play up-tempo on both ends of the court and you need a deep team to do that successfully. People want to ridicule this team and nitpick the coaching but ignore the fact that the staff had virtually no off-season with anything resembling a core team; even when staffs are changed there is normally a returning group of experienced players to ease the transition; this was all done on the fly. I expect a significantly more cohesive team next year. We shall see

I expect them to improve, just maybe not so much in one season. All four have promise but they also have a lot of improvement to make. Took guys like Cain and Pointer for full years. I expect Lovett and Ahmed to be much more of a finished product and their minutes should reflect that. My only other point is I strongly believe in 8 or 9 man rotation where your best players play the most. If you have 10 guys that should play fine but I don't necessarily think that will be the case for us next season.

I would say both Cain and Pointer were held back by their coaches more than they improved. From the time Cain came to SJU I thought he should have played over Buchanan and Lavin lucked out last year because by sheer numbers Pointer had to play major minutes. Anyway, I don't disagree with your basic premise, I just don't think the disparity in minutes is going to be anywhere near as dramatic as you do.

Off the main point but Cain thing seems like 20 / 20 hindsight. Cain was not a Louie Point guard in that he was quick, but whenever he played his first 3 seasons he struggled and fans booed him. Louie might have given him quick hooks but really no one expected his senior year.
I agree about Pointer and if the kid with fake transcript had been eligible he would not have been given the chance.

Whatever it seems to you aside, I never liked Buchanan, saw Cain many times in HS and always thought he should have been given a real shot by Louie. Did I see his senior year coming? Not at all, I just never liked Buchanan as a point guard; ancient history now.

 

[simplyred]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed next year.
Actually this is just silly unless you have Hamburger all Americans on your bench like Kentucky your best 3 players will generally play between 30-35 minutes. I forgot some of you think we will be Kentucky

Au contraire, I just think our best 3-4 players aren't nearly as good as you think they are going to be ergo I think playing them 30+ minutes exposes their deficiencies based on fatigue.

And any comparisons to a team/roster than had 6 scholarship players on it at the end of the season is patently ridiculous if not stupid.

Again if the newcomers especially in the backcourt and Ahmed are not radically better than the returning players from perhaps the worst BE team ever than 15 wins is probably a pipe dream let alone sniffing the NIT. You want to sprinkle in Williams, Jones and Amir next year fine but that is not a recipe for any kind of good year. Good teams play 8 or 9 guys.
Last year we had no depth. True, but if you would have had this year's version of Mussini on last year's teams he would have only played when Jordan was on his sabbatical.

Your position has some merit if you assume Sima, Yakwe, Ellison, and Mussini, not to mention AA and Jones do not improve during the off-season. We shall see but I don't think that will be the case. I would not be surprised if we have 10 players average from the mid-teens to mid-twenties. Mullin I think clearly wants to play up-tempo on both ends of the court and you need a deep team to do that successfully. People want to ridicule this team and nitpick the coaching but ignore the fact that the staff had virtually no off-season with anything resembling a core team; even when staffs are changed there is normally a returning group of experienced players to ease the transition; this was all done on the fly. I expect a significantly more cohesive team next year. We shall see

I expect them to improve, just maybe not so much in one season. All four have promise but they also have a lot of improvement to make. Took guys like Cain and Pointer for full years. I expect Lovett and Ahmed to be much more of a finished product and their minutes should reflect that. My only other point is I strongly believe in 8 or 9 man rotation where your best players play the most. If you have 10 guys that should play fine but I don't necessarily think that will be the case for us next season.

I would say both Cain and Pointer were held back by their coaches more than they improved. From the time Cain came to SJU I thought he should have played over Buchanan and Lavin lucked out last year because by sheer numbers Pointer had to play major minutes. Anyway, I don't disagree with your basic premise, I just don't think the disparity in minutes is going to be anywhere near as dramatic as you do.

Off the main point but Cain thing seems like 20 / 20 hindsight. Cain was not a Louie Point guard in that he was quick, but whenever he played his first 3 seasons he struggled and fans booed him. Louie might have given him quick hooks but really no one expected his senior year.
I agree about Pointer and if the kid with fake transcript had been eligible he would not have been given the chance.

Or maybe Joey Delarosa would not have been our only backup option in the middle.

 

[Section3]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2599/year/2012/st-john-red-storm

Next year's team to me will resemble Harrison first year. Notice the minutes for our two best players which will be Lovett and Ahmed next year.
Actually this is just silly unless you have Hamburger all Americans on your bench like Kentucky your best 3 players will generally play between 30-35 minutes. I forgot some of you think we will be Kentucky

Au contraire, I just think our best 3-4 players aren't nearly as good as you think they are going to be ergo I think playing them 30+ minutes exposes their deficiencies based on fatigue.

And any comparisons to a team/roster than had 6 scholarship players on it at the end of the season is patently ridiculous if not stupid.

Again if the newcomers especially in the backcourt and Ahmed are not radically better than the returning players from perhaps the worst BE team ever than 15 wins is probably a pipe dream let alone sniffing the NIT. You want to sprinkle in Williams, Jones and Amir next year fine but that is not a recipe for any kind of good year. Good teams play 8 or 9 guys.
Last year we had no depth. True, but if you would have had this year's version of Mussini on last year's teams he would have only played when Jordan was on his sabbatical.

Your position has some merit if you assume Sima, Yakwe, Ellison, and Mussini, not to mention AA and Jones do not improve during the off-season. We shall see but I don't think that will be the case. I would not be surprised if we have 10 players average from the mid-teens to mid-twenties. Mullin I think clearly wants to play up-tempo on both ends of the court and you need a deep team to do that successfully. People want to ridicule this team and nitpick the coaching but ignore the fact that the staff had virtually no off-season with anything resembling a core team; even when staffs are changed there is normally a returning group of experienced players to ease the transition; this was all done on the fly. I expect a significantly more cohesive team next year. We shall see

I expect them to improve, just maybe not so much in one season. All four have promise but they also have a lot of improvement to make. Took guys like Cain and Pointer for full years. I expect Lovett and Ahmed to be much more of a finished product and their minutes should reflect that. My only other point is I strongly believe in 8 or 9 man rotation where your best players play the most. If you have 10 guys that should play fine but I don't necessarily think that will be the case for us next season.

I would say both Cain and Pointer were held back by their coaches more than they improved. From the time Cain came to SJU I thought he should have played over Buchanan and Lavin lucked out last year because by sheer numbers Pointer had to play major minutes. Anyway, I don't disagree with your basic premise, I just don't think the disparity in minutes is going to be anywhere near as dramatic as you do.

Agree re: Cain...I remember saying same thing at the time..Louie would pull him as soon as he made an error...he was so much better suited to be a point guard than the robotic buchanan