Minnesota, Fri. Nov. 18, 9pm, BTN/570AM
- Thread starter Knight
- Start date
FWIW, we lost to what looks like a fairly talented team on the road by 6; the first road game and true test for a very, young inexperienced team. We certainly made mistakes, the most glaring being defensive balance but we have two penetrating guards who for their high school careers probably never had balance responsibilities. Many here seem to think this loss means we should change schemes, rotations, etc. Don't think so, we need to stay the course and be patient; unfortunately, this will take time. Hopefully we learn and grow a little from this game.
All true, and there is a lot to like about this group - if they develop.
However, moving your feet and staying in front of your man is not basketball rocket science, and we didn't do that any more against Minnesota than we did against Binghamton. There's plenty of talent, but so far I haven't seen anyone take pride in shutting down his man. Staff has to make that a priority for this group. Team defense will take more work, and that is something that can and should develop over the course of the season. But the lack of individual defensive accountability is alarming.
Hopefully we can find a way to get some points out of the bigs, that is the other glaring hole.
I personally detest the fact that our offense is largely one-on-one play, but I recognize that is apparently an acceptable offensive philosophy these days (as opposed to being limited to a bail-out at the end of a shot clock) and that my taste is both dated and in the minority.
Agree on the "stop the ball' comments but it appears both Lovett and Ponds are conditioned to go for steals; that will just not work at this level. I too am old school but the game is just different and not for the better. Watch any AAU tournament and it is obvious; funny but possibly the greatest player to ever lace them up, Michael Jordan, was the catalyst (through no fault of his) with changing the game completely from a 5 man game to a one on one free for all.
beast of the east
Active member
I wish I was a patient as you. While I agree that Ponds and Lovett are bonafide talent, beyond them my first impression is that there is just not enough overall talent for us to be .500 overall. Our conference schedule is a grind, and at very first glance I would say that even home games vs the bottom of the conference can end up as losses for us (not that they will be). This roster is a vast improvement, but my big fear is that before we field a winning team, opponents will soon gang up on Ponds and Lovett, and make us get points elsewhere, which will be difficult. We will then see more nights of this duo having to push the envelope which will likely result in some lower percentage shots from them than we'd like. A very impatient, less than upbeat assessment, but as a first glance, I see us far more likely to win 13-14 or less than winning 16-17 overall.
Being so dependent on these two talented kids offensively is also an accident waiting to happen if either is injured.
On defensive end, I concur on comments re need to stay in front of opposing player & stopping the ball. On a team, thus far with limited offensive options, giving up 25 uncontested points, stating the obvious, can't be compensated for.
On defensive end, I concur on comments re need to stay in front of opposing player & stopping the ball. On a team, thus far with limited offensive options, giving up 25 uncontested points, stating the obvious, can't be compensated for.
beast of the east
Active member
Do you think that this pace comes from Don Nelson's helter skelter unorthodox run and gun offense that even had Manute Bol hoisting up 3's?
I'll say this. It appears that Mullin either is more comfortable, had an epiphany, has someone in his ear, reads here, or just hated Slice so much by season's end that he stayed out of the fray, but Chris appears fully engaged and completely at the helm this season. (Pick your reason)
On pace comment, Chris, Mitch & even St. Jean bring NBA inclinations I suppose. Chris was never much of a defensive player, but I assume he knows we just can't roll the balls out & let it fly. Getting stops, no matter the era, seems a required requisite, not a secondary consideration.
Re: Mullin, agree he is very engaged. Perhaps having such poor personnel last year wore him down. This roster has potential for decent success next year, making the bumps in the road this season more bearable perhaps.
Ray Morgan
Well-known member
A much improved Minny team with one NBA talent and a lot of other decent players with good size couldn't stop Lovett or Ponds. Our problem shouldn't be on the offensive end. Ahmed's an offensive weapon. He will have some breakout games. I suspect Freudenberg will come around, too.
This game was a pure defensive fiasco. Adjustments to the obvious can be made. Get back on defense for one. My big concern is that defense has to be taught at this level. It's just not something HS stars focus on. Where is this team's Dom Pointer or Willie Glass? The guy with superior athleticism who is willing to forego offensive output for defensive intensity. Maybe it's heresy to say anything about Mullin as a coach, but I have my doubts about his ability to indoctrinate his teams with a strong defensive philosophy. No shame in that, as he came here without a single day of coaching experience. Just think the staff could use someone that has experience teaching a variety of defenses at this level. It couldn't hurt. Also nice would be a lunch bucket type with a NBA body who can handle some dirty work.
This game was a pure defensive fiasco. Adjustments to the obvious can be made. Get back on defense for one. My big concern is that defense has to be taught at this level. It's just not something HS stars focus on. Where is this team's Dom Pointer or Willie Glass? The guy with superior athleticism who is willing to forego offensive output for defensive intensity. Maybe it's heresy to say anything about Mullin as a coach, but I have my doubts about his ability to indoctrinate his teams with a strong defensive philosophy. No shame in that, as he came here without a single day of coaching experience. Just think the staff could use someone that has experience teaching a variety of defenses at this level. It couldn't hurt. Also nice would be a lunch bucket type with a NBA body who can handle some dirty work.
beast of the east
Active member
It seems very basic that when your guards penetrate that someone is on the perimeter defending against a possible uncontested layup at the other end. Usually it's the other guard, but if 4 guys are standing around while ponds or Lovett penetrate this will happen all season. Certainly correctable, and I imagine Mullin and staff are already working on this in practice this week.
Taking the program a year at a time watching last year's team at the beginning of the season it was pretty obvious there was no big east talent on board. That was not the case Fri. If the big men can show gradual improvement thru Jan-Feb this team could surprise most of us.
Playing at what appeared to be an underrated Minn team made things more difficult.
Playing at what appeared to be an underrated Minn team made things more difficult.
You make a point about coaching exp. Matt is a recruiter, not really a coach. And when you add up all the coaching exp. of Mullin, Richmond ,and ST.JEAN collectively, it doesn't add up to much. Time will tell. Would have liked to see a Dunlap type assistant. Re, our big men, I think Sima and Owens have looked good, but foul too much, need them on the court. Yakwe has potential, but has been disappointing this year relative to his expectations.
Ray Morgan
Well-known member
The idea of getting back on D is not a radical concept. In all fairness, this should have been addressed before the first game, and certainly stressed at halftime. It seemed that the bench appeared over-matched, and the only thing that worked was Lovett penetrating or shooting pull up jumpers. That resulted in a lot of fast breaks the other way. Truth is, our D was so porous, even when we were back, Coffey and others just took it right to the hoop anyway.
Would have been great to win, still a lot of room for progress, but exciting and fun game to watch. Which is likely a lot more than we could have said about a similar game a year ago. Minny very good, a lot better than I thought and knew they had talent. Coffey as challenging a one on one matchup for our particular roster makeup as we will see. But still another reminder of how far our talent level has come in such a short time. You can also envision in a game like this one the impact Simon and Clark may have - a long athletic guard and a physical "college 4" body in the middle might have made a difference Friday night.
Lovett/Ponds incredible but have to find ways to spell them, and not just in terms of minutes. Clearly 38+ per game not sustainable, but need to find subtle ways to lower their usage while on the floor, not just for their own stamina benefit but to try to get them some easier looks as well. Right now it feels like they are creating 90+% of the total offense and that's not sustainable either. Beginning on Wednesday we are likely going to start seeing what defenses are going to try to do to them and we need to diversify.
Two ways jump out. (1) High post action through Sima. It's not ideal and I'm not even sure how effective it will be against better competition, but it creates different action away from the ball and Sima is a capable passer. (2) Ahmed in the mid-post. He's been forcing a little but if he can scale that back I like the confidence and aggression. If he's willing to distribute when help comes, he's a pretty tough 1 on 1 cover for the majority of teams on our schedule, especially if they are focused on taking Lovett/Ponds away. Also creates a more viable path for Mussini to contribute in spot up capacity. Again not totally optimal, but I see very few scenarios where we approach the W/L results we hope without BA as a very reliable #3, and this moves us towards that while also taking some weight off the two guards and, like Sima, just showing a different look. Even running these two sets 8-10x/game may pay dividends over 30+ game season.
Mussini/Ellison cannot be zeros. Can't. Second year guards who put in work over summer. Need one or both to provide semi-consistent production, even if small - Mussini making 3s regularly enough that when he is on floor we are playing 4v4 in halfcourt; Ellison providing defensive lift when matchups don't favor small guards. I think our bigs this year are close to it is what it is, so more from one or both of these two most obvious area to lighten load on Lovett/Ponds in my view.
Biggest surprise positive thus far has been rebounding effort and results on both ends. 54 total rebounds/21 offensive against a team as big as Minny is significant. Ponds in particular is amazing, seems to get within a few feet of every miss. BA very effective in this regard as well. And our bigs, while often limited offensively, are really going after it on the backboards. And given those offensive limitations, while there is hopefully continued progress and a few performances where we get a boost, might be best for us to focus those resources on as much resistance at the rim and backboard activity as possible. Every night consistency in those two regards more important than enhanced scoring from them right now.
Lovett/Ponds incredible but have to find ways to spell them, and not just in terms of minutes. Clearly 38+ per game not sustainable, but need to find subtle ways to lower their usage while on the floor, not just for their own stamina benefit but to try to get them some easier looks as well. Right now it feels like they are creating 90+% of the total offense and that's not sustainable either. Beginning on Wednesday we are likely going to start seeing what defenses are going to try to do to them and we need to diversify.
Two ways jump out. (1) High post action through Sima. It's not ideal and I'm not even sure how effective it will be against better competition, but it creates different action away from the ball and Sima is a capable passer. (2) Ahmed in the mid-post. He's been forcing a little but if he can scale that back I like the confidence and aggression. If he's willing to distribute when help comes, he's a pretty tough 1 on 1 cover for the majority of teams on our schedule, especially if they are focused on taking Lovett/Ponds away. Also creates a more viable path for Mussini to contribute in spot up capacity. Again not totally optimal, but I see very few scenarios where we approach the W/L results we hope without BA as a very reliable #3, and this moves us towards that while also taking some weight off the two guards and, like Sima, just showing a different look. Even running these two sets 8-10x/game may pay dividends over 30+ game season.
Mussini/Ellison cannot be zeros. Can't. Second year guards who put in work over summer. Need one or both to provide semi-consistent production, even if small - Mussini making 3s regularly enough that when he is on floor we are playing 4v4 in halfcourt; Ellison providing defensive lift when matchups don't favor small guards. I think our bigs this year are close to it is what it is, so more from one or both of these two most obvious area to lighten load on Lovett/Ponds in my view.
Biggest surprise positive thus far has been rebounding effort and results on both ends. 54 total rebounds/21 offensive against a team as big as Minny is significant. Ponds in particular is amazing, seems to get within a few feet of every miss. BA very effective in this regard as well. And our bigs, while often limited offensively, are really going after it on the backboards. And given those offensive limitations, while there is hopefully continued progress and a few performances where we get a boost, might be best for us to focus those resources on as much resistance at the rim and backboard activity as possible. Every night consistency in those two regards more important than enhanced scoring from them right now.
Be as patient as you want to be; from my perspective it is way too premature to put W/L numbers or expectations on the team but that is me. A lot of you look at players play three games and dice, slice and define them, I don't. For example, Lovett looked like a bona fide point guard in the first two romps and reverted to AAU type ball for stretches against Minnesota. To me, not a real big deal, but if you are going to take 27 shots you better score some, so I was not impressed. Not knocking him, just offering an observation. We are young and that is just the way it is, so I don't expect young players to play like veterans; they have to "unlearn" and then "re-learn." That takes time period. History tells us even the best coaches don't start out that way and Mullin certainly needs to learn some things but again, that takes time. As I have pointed out, Wright and Coach K both had growing pains why should Mullin be different?
beast of the east
Active member
Just follow me, I'm usually right about these things.
Just for once (in an extremely long while) I'd like our squad to get out of the gate quickly in the pre conference season. It's not going to happen this season, even if we are much improved roster wise.
Agree. This is why I said pre-season that I thought Seton Hall would be good and was under rated. Whitehead great talent, chemistry killer. If we had played any defense and played the team ball we did in the first 3 games, and still lost I'd have been a lot happier and it would have bode well for the future. I love that Ponds and Lovett can score effectively. That one shot from the corner by Ponds was amazing. But to be a good team we can't be a Jarvis style team that relies on one guy. Big reason for that is simply that Jarvis taught defense. Our guys aren't playing any.