Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc.

[quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=396002][quote="QueensBall" post=395967]Disappointing to hear that we may be falling behind here. PharmaD- why so negative all the time? Let me see if I got this right:

2019-20: Anderson is hired a couple of months before the season begins but he's able to add Dunn, Champagnie and Rutherford on short notice. Which of those guys do you wish we didn't have last season? On top of that we're pretty much unanimously thrilled with how he developed and got production from the sophomores, right?

2020-21: He gets one of the best PG's in the area, 2 Juco All Americans, A big grad transfer (wasn't everyone going crazy the last couple of seasons because Mullin and Matt A couldn't land that exact type of player?) and he takes a flyer on Wusu because he thinks he sees something. What is the issue with that class?

2021-22: The class is literally a work in progress. Of course we're upset because we missed on some of our bigger targets and we don't see any leans our way. But the guy has 3 spots to fill and he just picked up a really promising player who people don't appreciate because some recruiting site's matrix didn't give him 4 stars.

According to ESPN Drissa is the #6 player in NY and he's 1 rating point shy of being a 4-star recruit. He has a 79 rating and 4-star players are rated 80 or higher. So if Drissa was rated a fraction higher by a small group of talent evaluators (who none of us could probably name aside from Paul Biancardi) then we'd feel better because we could say, "All right well at least Coach started this class with a 4-star big." We're not trying to win a star collecting contest here.[/quote]

See the recruiting of every other Big East school.... that’s why I’m negative. They’re landing highly regarded prospects on the regular, even DePaul, and we’re striking out left and right.

Drissa wasn’t really being recruited by many big schools. He may turn out ok but that says a lot to me that our competition for him was like Bryant and Stony Brook.

It’s the same pattern with every coach here it seems. Everyone on here loves them and they can do no wrong the first year or 2 then they don’t recruit well or coach poorly and everyone wants them fired, rinse repeat.[/quote]

So you are saying a -1 from a four star recruit is a swing and miss. Sorry but I don't agree.
 
[quote="Moose" post=396004][quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=396002]
It’s the same pattern with every coach here it seems. Everyone on here loves them and they can do no wrong the first year or 2 then they don’t recruit well or coach poorly and everyone wants them fired, rinse repeat.[/quote]

This is very much true. So are you bucking the trend and getting ahead of the rest?[/quote]

Nobody is calling for Anderson’s head. We’re voicing our concerns and expressing our frustrations. I know it’s an unpopular position with the “cancel police” on this Board to criticize our coach during the honeymoon phase, but it doesn’t take an expert to acknowledge that we are really struggling on the recruiting trail right now.
 
[quote="Boo Harvey" post=396011][quote="Moose" post=396004][quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=396002]
It’s the same pattern with every coach here it seems. Everyone on here loves them and they can do no wrong the first year or 2 then they don’t recruit well or coach poorly and everyone wants them fired, rinse repeat.[/quote]

This is very much true. So are you bucking the trend and getting ahead of the rest?[/quote]

Nobody is calling for Anderson’s head. We’re voicing our concerns and expressing our frustrations. I know it’s an unpopular position with the “cancel police” on this Board to criticize our coach during the honeymoon phase, but it doesn’t take an expert to acknowledge that we are really struggling on the recruiting trail right now.[/quote]

I know a lot of kids are committing early, but we haven’t even reached the early signing period. Plenty of quality kids available and we know this staff works a lot quieter than the previous one
 
[quote="Not an alum" post=395939]Guys also want to play right away and we don’t have a lot of time to offer unless we’re talking about bringing in a top 25 5* recruit...[/quote]
========
lack of immediate playing time doesn't prevent every program from stockpiling talent but makes a convenient excuse for StJohn's.
 
[quote="Boo Harvey" post=396011][quote="Moose" post=396004][quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=396002]
It’s the same pattern with every coach here it seems. Everyone on here loves them and they can do no wrong the first year or 2 then they don’t recruit well or coach poorly and everyone wants them fired, rinse repeat.[/quote]

This is very much true. So are you bucking the trend and getting ahead of the rest?[/quote]

Nobody is calling for Anderson’s head. We’re voicing our concerns and expressing our frustrations. I know it’s an unpopular position with the “cancel police” on this Board to criticize our coach during the honeymoon phase, but it doesn’t take an expert to acknowledge that we are really struggling on the recruiting trail right now.[/quote]

I asked him the question. I think he can respond for himself.

We don't live in a pollyanna world. You, him or anyone else can knock your socks off calling for people's heads after 2 games or 2 years. It is what it is. He's right where most rational people do give a new coach a few honeymoon years. Me personally I'm in the 3 year range. At that point I think its pretty easy to make a determination.

I am also not Captain or Sergeant of this Cancel Police. I have made plenty of comments on here that you would deem 'unpopular'. But keep your broad paintbrush out there
 
[quote="Boo Harvey" post=396007]

I also can’t help but laugh when people tout Posh as if he’s going to be some savior out of the gate. Anything is possible, but seems highly unlikely.[/quote]

Not one person has said he's going to be a savior right out of the gate.

He's not even a starter next season.
 
[quote="Boo Harvey" post=396008][quote="Chicago Days" post=395978]Daylen Berry may be possible, unless he blows up as well. I think AUB was rumored to have interest in Berry. How much interest would be the key.[/quote]

And by “blowing up,” you mean one or more high majors being involved, right? Bc if that’s the case, I don’t like our odds.[/quote]

I mean heavy interest/recruiting by 6+ high majors, which would make it difficult but not impossible.
Depends on the relationship our coaches develop with him and, of course, if $$$'s are thrown involved.
 
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[quote="Moose" post=396015][quote="Boo Harvey" post=396011][quote="Moose" post=396004][quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=396002]
It’s the same pattern with every coach here it seems. Everyone on here loves them and they can do no wrong the first year or 2 then they don’t recruit well or coach poorly and everyone wants them fired, rinse repeat.[/quote]

This is very much true. So are you bucking the trend and getting ahead of the rest?[/quote]

Nobody is calling for Anderson’s head. We’re voicing our concerns and expressing our frustrations. I know it’s an unpopular position with the “cancel police” on this Board to criticize our coach during the honeymoon phase, but it doesn’t take an expert to acknowledge that we are really struggling on the recruiting trail right now.[/quote]

I asked him the question. I think he can respond for himself.

We don't live in a pollyanna world. You, him or anyone else can knock your socks off calling for people's heads after 2 games or 2 years. It is what it is. He's right where most rational people do give a new coach a few honeymoon years. Me personally I'm in the 3 year range. At that point I think its pretty easy to make a determination.

I am also not Captain or Sergeant of this Cancel Police. I have made plenty of comments on here that you would deem 'unpopular'. But keep your broad paintbrush out there[/quote]

Moose, my reference to the “cancel police” was not directed at you in particular, although I can see how you took it that way since I was responding to your post. In any event, I think you would agree that there is a contingent on this Board who go after those with whom they disagree.

I thought I made it explicit that I wasn’t calling for CMA’s head, but your response indicates I’m mistaken. People hear what they want to hear I suppose. All that I can say is that there is a not so subtle distinction between voicing one’s criticism/concern and advocating that a coach be fired.

Finally, I’ll address your comment that CMA “is right where any rational person” would expect. While I’ll concede that last year’s team moderately exceeded expectations (unlike some, I won’t go so far as to call a 5-13 Big East conference record our best season in decades), I think plenty of “rational” people would express concern with our recruiting to date.

Time of course will tell and I agree that our coach deserves at least three, if not four years to prove himself. That won’t stop me, however, from calling it like I see it. Coaching here is one hell of a tough job. But the day I settle for mediocrity or less with this program is the day I’m no longer the proud obsessive fan I’ve been for the alma mater of three generations of “Boo Harveys.”
 
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[quote="L J S A" post=396017][quote="Boo Harvey" post=396007]

I also can’t help but laugh when people tout Posh as if he’s going to be some savior out of the gate. Anything is possible, but seems highly unlikely.[/quote]

Not one person has said he's going to be a savior right out of the gate.

He's not even a starter next season.[/quote]

Agree that he’s likely not to start next season, but suggest you re-read some of the recent posts about Posh.
 
[quote="Boo Harvey" post=396020][quote="Moose" post=396015][quote="Boo Harvey" post=396011][quote="Moose" post=396004][quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=396002]
It’s the same pattern with every coach here it seems. Everyone on here loves them and they can do no wrong the first year or 2 then they don’t recruit well or coach poorly and everyone wants them fired, rinse repeat.[/quote]

This is very much true. So are you bucking the trend and getting ahead of the rest?[/quote]

Nobody is calling for Anderson’s head. We’re voicing our concerns and expressing our frustrations. I know it’s an unpopular position with the “cancel police” on this Board to criticize our coach during the honeymoon phase, but it doesn’t take an expert to acknowledge that we are really struggling on the recruiting trail right now.[/quote]

I asked him the question. I think he can respond for himself.

We don't live in a pollyanna world. You, him or anyone else can knock your socks off calling for people's heads after 2 games or 2 years. It is what it is. He's right where most rational people do give a new coach a few honeymoon years. Me personally I'm in the 3 year range. At that point I think its pretty easy to make a determination.

I am also not Captain or Sergeant of this Cancel Police. I have made plenty of comments on here that you would deem 'unpopular'. But keep your broad paintbrush out there[/quote]

Moose, my reference to the “cancel police” was not directed at you in particular, although I can see how you took it that way since I was responding to your post. In any event, I think you would agree that there is a contingent on this Board who go after those with whom they disagree.

I thought I made it explicit that I wasn’t calling for CMA’s head, but your response indicates I’m mistaken. People hear what they want to hear I suppose. All that I can say is that there is a not so subtle distinction between voicing one’s criticism/concern and advocating that a coach be fired.

Finally, I’ll address your comment that CMA “is right where any rational person” would expect. While I’ll concede that last year’s team moderately exceeded expeditions (unlike some, I won’t go so far as to call a 5-13 Big East conference record our best season in decades), I think plenty of “rational” people would express concern with our recruiting to date.

Time of course will tell and I agree that our coach deserves at least three, if not four years to prove himself. That won’t stop me, however, from calling it like I see it. Coaching here is one hell of a tough job. But the day I settle for mediocrity or less with this program is the day I’m no longer the proud obsessive fan I’ve been for the alma mater of three generations of “Boo Harveys.”[/quote]

That's a perfectly rational post.
The problem is oftentimes you and a few others just go on and on and on with the same rhetoric. I can guarantee you members of your Cancel Police force have posted 'negative' comments about in game coaching, recruiting, the color of the uniforms, whatever else you can think of. You can lean one way sure. I'm not completely satisfied with recruiting to date. But I also know its still early in his tenure. I've gone on record saying 22 needs to be a killer class otherwise gloves are off. And while you didnt say this others did- I don't move goalposts. 22 is 22. Won't become 23 and so on. It's 3 full season and 3 full classes. Its fair at the point and we all hope we don't have to rinse and repeat again.
 
[quote="QueensBall" post=395980][quote="Chicago Days" post=395978]Daylen Berry may be possible, unless he blows up as well. I think AUB was rumored to have interest in Berry. How much interest would be the key.[/quote]

I'd offer Harris and heavily imply to both him and Berry that whoever commits first gets the spot. Keep that last spot open in case something breaks our way with Kepnang, Applewhite or if Cuffe Jr ends up re-classing. If things really go our way and we land more than one of those tougher gets then somebody has to talk to somebody about making room which is how it goes.[/quote]


“ I'd offer Harris and heavily imply to both him and Berry that whoever commits first gets the spot.”

It seems we have interest in one and are kicking the tires on the other. You do that type of tactic if you are in the running with four and five stars, not these guys. If we have to resort to that tactic with these two, then we really are in trouble recruiting wise.
 
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Maybe I'm biased but I just think Boo Harvey is dead on here. No one is calling for CMA's head...obviously not that would be silly this early. But we are seeing a pretty big concern early on here and that's recruiting. He moderately exceeded expectations in terms of total wins but our Big East performance was still pretty bad as expected. Those WVU/Zona wins were awesome but let's see if it was a flash in a can or a real pattern of playing those types of teams tough and winning our share. There is zero doubt that recruiting is a concern early on and the only way you can deny this is if you're biased in the opposite direction: rose colored. Bias goes 2 ways...it can be too negative or too positive. But I think Harvey and I are being totally rational with recruiting concern.

You can blame him getting here recently, his style of play, not much PT to offer, etc. The point is, we are absolute rock bottom recruiting in the conference. Rock bottom by a clear margin. The reason doesn't matter. Teams figure out ways to recruit well like DePaul even when they stink. No one said it's easy, but if you can't get good recruits here consistently e.g. top 100 level guys on the reg, you will almost certainly not succeed here which is what I said early on. Who cares who we are involved with if they don't come? I can go to the Ferrari dealership but I won't be able to get one. Enough with the top 10's top 5's, etc. You either get the top kids or you don't. He may be able to find some diamonds in the rough, but if that's your entire recruiting philosophy, you're in trouble.
 
[quote="Moose" post=396004][quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=396002]
It’s the same pattern with every coach here it seems. Everyone on here loves them and they can do no wrong the first year or 2 then they don’t recruit well or coach poorly and everyone wants them fired, rinse repeat.[/quote]

This is very much true. So are you bucking the trend and getting ahead of the rest?[/quote]

I was criticizing Mullin around this time in his tenure as well, and people were giving me the same sort of negative responses as they are now with CMA. I was being told about Mullin "it's early", "it's his first time as a coach", "he'll improve", "he's got a great staff". How'd that work out?

To be quite honest I don't really think he's done a great of a job with his in game coaching at all last year. There were several games we should have won last year where we had a huge lead and ended up blowing it. The Georgetown game at home last year comes to mind, and there were more than that.

He also runs an antiquated system that no big recruit who is trying to go to the NBA is going to want to play in. Why come here and play in a chaotic defensive scheme with no flow on offense at all when they can go to a school that runs a modern offensive system like most teams in the NBA do?

As far as his recruiting so far Champagnie was a diamond in the rough, but I don't really love this incoming class, and hate what is going on in 2021 so far. There are no sure fire big time recruits. Notice with all his recruits it's always "this guy woulda been a 4 star if...", "this guy is being overlooked", "this guy could be a steal". Can we just land a recruit who is a bonafide good player? We're a Big East program but we recruit like a mid major. You can't win consistently in this league if all your completion is regularly landing big time recruits and we're going after all these castoff lottery tickets.

I think it's pretty obvious that CMA's biggest strength as a coach is player development. I was really impressed with Champagne, Earlington and Greg Williams's development, so that's a positive.

I'm willing to give him a shot, but I don't like what I'm seeing overall so far. Reminds me exactly of what happened with all the past few coaches. And if the pattern holds true by 2022 you guys will all be calling for his head. Hope I'm wrong, but he's given me really not much reason to think otherwise.
 
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The funny thing is, guys like us who have been the most critical of coaches e.g. Lavin, Mullin....have been 100% correct both times. There's an odd gut feeling you get and it might be deja vu. It's very cyclical...new coach comes, they do something exciting but then reality sets in...red flags start building, critiques, critics getting lambasted, tomorrow never comes, then finally the most optimistic posters are in agreement that it won't work with that coach. Notice we never get an apology or acknowledgement after being correct after all the heat we take. Not that I would ever ask for one, but if it's the other way around and I'm wrong, I will admit it and I typically do. Instead of being overly emotional, let's look at objective facts.

The 2021 class depicts us at the absolute bottom of the Big East with Drissa. PC has not landed any yet, however they have more than proven they can easily get their elite recruits including 2 McD's AA's even though 1 didn't end up playing. Everyone else seems to have no issue recruiting in our conference. And as for the "yeah but if it weren't for XYZ they would be 4 star" talk, there's an old adage for that. If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. I don't think any of us are overly obsessive over 4 star kids...we just know everyone else gets them and we aren't. Recruiting is the lifeblood of college hoops programs and college football. Asking CMA to turn every 3 star into a beast is like winning a $5 scratch off then going to redeem it for more lotto tickets expecting to hit every time. Then you realize eventually the luck stops and reality sets in. That's the danger of only being able to land 2-3 star guys.

If you get better recruits your odds of being better go up significantly on average. Lavin's teams got to the postseason regularly and ranked several times. Bad coach but the 4-5 star talent all over the place alone got them there. With a good coach, they would have been Sweet 16 good. Mullin is not even a coach and was tying his shoes on live TV. Still, having guys like Ponds 4*, Simon 5*, Clark 4*, Heron 5*, etc. and their pure talent got them ranked at one point. A good coach would have been in top 25 all year with that team. CMA is a rock solid coach that can develop...but at this point there's no evidence he can recruit at this level. A bunch of lotto tickets is not a strategy for making a living. A good stable salary is.
 
What level are we at? A blowout loss to Gonzaga in first round of NCAA with lavin or the embarrassment vs ASU in the play in game? Asking for a friend
 
To zaun, pharma and boo and anyone else critiquing a guy whose work is still way early in progress. IF coach recruits on mostly the 3 star level with high level jucos AND we are making ncaa’s almost yearly and advancing (some with a decent run in the tourney) you won’t be happy? Because we don’t have 4 stars and 5 stars? Give the guy a chance to prove himself in ALL aspects here before you send him packing based on your way to important stars. Wins are more important don’t ya I think? Give Him the decency of allowing him the appropriate amount of time to prove himself. Wow. Don’t forget. Anderson’s goal is to win the whole thing as he stated. He knows how to win. He knows what he is doing. Relax on this one. Don’t run him out just yet.
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=396031]Maybe I'm biased but I just think Boo Harvey is dead on here. No one is calling for CMA's head...obviously not that would be silly this early. But we are seeing a pretty big concern early on here and that's recruiting. He moderately exceeded expectations in terms of total wins but our Big East performance was still pretty bad as expected. Those WVU/Zona wins were awesome but let's see if it was a flash in a can or a real pattern of playing those types of teams tough and winning our share. There is zero doubt that recruiting is a concern early on and the only way you can deny this is if you're biased in the opposite direction: rose colored. Bias goes 2 ways...it can be too negative or too positive. But I think Harvey and I are being totally rational with recruiting concern.

You can blame him getting here recently, his style of play, not much PT to offer, etc. The point is, we are absolute rock bottom recruiting in the conference. Rock bottom by a clear margin. The reason doesn't matter. Teams figure out ways to recruit well like DePaul even when they stink. No one said it's easy, but if you can't get good recruits here consistently e.g. top 100 level guys on the reg, you will almost certainly not succeed here which is what I said early on. Who cares who we are involved with if they don't come? I can go to the Ferrari dealership but I won't be able to get one. Enough with the top 10's top 5's, etc. You either get the top kids or you don't. He may be able to find some diamonds in the rough, but if that's your entire recruiting philosophy, you're in trouble.[/quote]

MZ
Thanks for your insights and opinions. Some of which I agree with.
Nothing in life - not many things anyway - is simple or one dimensional including college basketball recruiting. It’s complicated. But major factors or ingredients are time, patience, process.
Folks can have differing views and any contention on this board might stem from the strong caring many of us share.
Maybe we’re silly or have nothing better in our lives, but sports and SJU are important to us, perhaps too much so.
Anyway...
Hope we have a season 2020-21.
 
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Just a question of (i) how much importance you ascribe to the number of stars assigned to recruits and (ii) whether you choose to see glass as half full or half empty. I'm not particularly obsessed with HS star rankings and always try to see glass as half full but understand not everyone does.
Results are what matter, not how you get there. In his only year with us, Anderson's team slightly overachieved, especially given that our two most highly ranked players had disappointing seasons, in large part due to development of Williams & Earlington and because the three guys he recruited all performed well.
I think the 2020 class will prove to be a very good one but obviously on the court performance will either prove that out or not. As far as 2021 class, while I'm disappointed we didn't get Riley, it is still too early to get too concerned about that class. Mullins & Lav were really dependent on recruiting well since they weren't great at player development, different story with Anderson. I really hope things break so that we can see at least part of a season and how well our 2020 recruits perform.
 
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If I point out that a guy (Drissa) is just a hair beneath some arbitrary rating # and the reaction is, "There's always an excuse for why someone isn't a 4 star" then you're completely missing the point. I'm not saying that Drissa should be a 4 star recruit, I'm acknowledging that he ISN'T a 4 star but saying that I really don't care. I don't care that he has a 79 instead of 80 rating because it has absolutely zero bearing on how he will perform at the college level. You guys also have no idea but you're saying that because he doesn't have that slightly higher rating he's another example of Mike Anderson being unable to recruit. That's completely incoherent thinking to me.

I'm also not saying that stars or rankings aren't helpful. When I haven't heard of a recruit I always check to see their ranking/stars to give me an idea of how they're viewed but if that's the only way you're capable of evaluating if you're excited by a recruit then there isn't really a discussion to be had. You're like one of these network executives in television who have no actual opinions of their own. They can only decide how they feel about a project by "Who else is interested in it?" You would have passed on Stranger Things because HBO and Showtime passed on it and the creators didn't have the best resume. The most anticipated stuff isn't always the best stuff. If that was the case our favorite movies every year would just be what script sold for the most money. Our favorite places to hang out would just be whatever club had the longest line outside the door. Have some taste of your own. Watch the guy play and have an opinion. Everyone agrees that the best guys are the best guys. Not everyone views an incoming recruit as disappointing just because they fall below an extremely arbitrary ranking line in the sand.

And why act like the board is ganging up on you? The reason this same discussion keeps happening is because every time a recruit is being discussed or pursued that isn't a Top 100 type guy the same few people respond with, "Another unranked guy. Great. Right in Mike Anderson's wheelhouse..." or something similar. Every 9th or 10th time some of us feel compelled to defend a staff that's working really hard and hasn't been anything close to a flop yet. Enough of the doom and gloom. Nobody wants the team to suck. Nobody wants to stick with a coach that isn't working. Others of us have certain recruiting concerns also but don't just view things in extremes. Not everything is a 1 or a 10.
 
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