Marquette Game

[redmen2014champs]

Marquette thoughts:http://www.bigeastboards.com/

Can't say I agree with everything, but a lot of it is spot on.

I do agree with Fun's point regarding Greene's dunk at the end of the game, should have dribbled into corner to run out the clock. In fact that's what I expected when Jordan hit him with the pass.

I'll take the dunk. Anything can happen trying to run 11 seconds off the clock, including a turnover or tieup (see Max Hooper). The way we lined up for it, I was expecting one of our guys bunched behind midcourt to break long, but the way it was executed was actually more elaborate and reliable than a hail mary for a dunk.

Agree on the dunk, disagree on fouling Carlino with 11 seconds left. Stopping the clock by fouling their best shooter and letting them cut the lead to 1 with all that time left makes no sense to me whatsoever. At the very least play them tight beyond the 3 and force them to drive for 2. It kills more time off the clock and forces them to make a FG as opposed to putting Carlino at the charity stripe. And if they hit a crazy 3 worst case scenario you're headed for OT. By fouling with 11 seconds left you're actually setting Marquette up to get a W. Now we got the W so all's well that ends well, but I still don't like that move at all right there.

This. I am somewhat of a Lavin defender but many of you might have heard me screaming when they fouled Carlino. It may have worked out ok but it is one of the dumbest moves I've ever seen and the only way to lose the game in regulation. Greene's move was actually smart, although people are conditioned to think differently, an easy basket should not be passed up to go to the line in a one and one situation. It may be called a free throw but we all know they are never gimmes with the game on the line.

I'm not saying it cannot be discussed, but it's not like Lavin invented that strategy. It's very simple. Marquette with the ball could hit a 3 to tie it. Put them on the line for two, and the ball is back in our hands, and the fate of the game belongs to us.

Most coaches would want the ball and the lead and control their own destiny. Letting Marquette run a play had the possibility of us having the ball and a tie. Fouling eliminated the possibility of a tie on FTs.

Funny, different sport, but in the closing moments before Flutie threw the Hail Mary, possibly the greatest pass of all time, just before Miami got the ball back leading to a TD and BC possession, BC offensive players chatted and considered approaching the coaches to say, let Miami score (and get the lead) so they could get the ball back in plenty of time. They were THAT confident that Flutie with the ball in his hands, could not be stopped. Any good team would want the ball and a 1 point lead after giving up 2 points, rather than the potential to give up 3 and have the ball and a tie.

Disagree, any good team should want to get one defensive stop to close out a game up 3. What is the point of fouling up 3 letting them get it down to 1 and hoping you hit 2 free throws to attempt to get it back to 3 so you are in the exact same position with plenty of time on the clock. Makes zero sense.

 

[simplyred]

I was watching a game recently where the coach chose to play solid D. Opposition hit a 3 and took it to overtime and won. I foul there. The only thing we did wrong was not force them to burn more time in the backcourt.

 

[Jack Williams]

Problem with sitting DLo is we would probably get killed. And this will obviously be the most viewed SJU game all year, it is important to me we put a good product on the floor

Hey Jack, wheather they get beat by 40 or 1, it still counts only one loss. I'm not gonna worry about the Duke game. I'm more worried about Harrison, we are going to need our leader to lead us to many wins in the B.E. I say rest him against Duke, don't let him practice until Monday.
What if he plays and shoots lousy, then he's no help anyway.

I hate Duke too, but I'm just looking at the bigger picture.
Could Harrison hurt himself more if he continue to play? That's another concern.

First of all, I just wanna say this, he is playing. Whether you think he should sit or not is your opinion you can have it but don't get your hopes up. DLo isn't gonna sit this one out. He wouldn't miss this one for the world.

Secondly, even though he was off shooting, he moved fine all game, I think his only problem is when he used his legs to shoot, there is pain in the calf and it distracts him from making the shot. But strap him up with some pain killers and play him. Sitting him for one day isn't gonna save him from a calf injury. We play Wednesday anyway.

Come on. Have some pride, no duke game doesn't matter for our big east record, but that doesn't mean we call the dogs off so coach K can start sipping on champagne with a 20 point lead at halftime.

I say we go for the win. And if we steal this, somehow, 8-10 or 9-9 might even get us into the tournament as opposed to 10-8 or 11-7. Play to win. Go redmen

 

[redfan259999888]

Problem with sitting DLo is we would probably get killed. And this will obviously be the most viewed SJU game all year, it is important to me we put a good product on the floor

Hey Jack, wheather they get beat by 40 or 1, it still counts only one loss. I'm not gonna worry about the Duke game. I'm more worried about Harrison, we are going to need our leader to lead us to many wins in the B.E. I say rest him against Duke, don't let him practice until Monday.
What if he plays and shoots lousy, then he's no help anyway.

I hate Duke too, but I'm just looking at the bigger picture.
Could Harrison hurt himself more if he continue to play? That's another concern.

First of all, I just wanna say this, he is playing. Whether you think he should sit or not is your opinion you can have it but don't get your hopes up. DLo isn't gonna sit this one out. He wouldn't miss this one for the world.

Secondly, even though he was off shooting, he moved fine all game, I think his only problem is when he used his legs to shoot, there is pain in the calf and it distracts him from making the shot. But strap him up with some pain killers and play him. Sitting him for one day isn't gonna save him from a calf injury. We play Wednesday anyway.

Come on. Have some pride, no duke game doesn't matter for our big east record, but that doesn't mean we call the dogs off so coach K can start sipping on champagne with a 20 point lead at halftime.

I say we go for the win. And if we steal this, somehow, 8-10 or 9-9 might even get us into the tournament as opposed to 10-8 or 11-7. Play to win. Go redmen

I hear you, but sitting him out gives him a full week to rest it, and might help alot.
On the other hand, if he's feeling good, and the pain doesn't distract his shot, and he could drive to the hoop. Then by all means play him. I'd love to beat Duke too.

All I want is a healthy Harrison is all I'm saying. He his the most important part of this team.
In the words, you might lose the battle but winning the war. By the "war" reference, I mean getting to the NCAA Tournament.

 

[redmen2014champs]

I was watching a game recently where the coach chose to play solid D. Opposition hit a 3 and took it to overtime and won. I foul there. The only thing we did wrong was not force them to burn more time in the backcourt.

I was watching the SJU-Providence game last January which went to double OT. Kind of an important game since it cost us the NCAAs. We fouled up 3 with about 20 seconds left and found a way to lose the game without even going to another OT. Many examples both ways.

 

[Jack Williams]

Problem with sitting DLo is we would probably get killed. And this will obviously be the most viewed SJU game all year, it is important to me we put a good product on the floor

Hey Jack, wheather they get beat by 40 or 1, it still counts only one loss. I'm not gonna worry about the Duke game. I'm more worried about Harrison, we are going to need our leader to lead us to many wins in the B.E. I say rest him against Duke, don't let him practice until Monday.
What if he plays and shoots lousy, then he's no help anyway.

I hate Duke too, but I'm just looking at the bigger picture.
Could Harrison hurt himself more if he continue to play? That's another concern.

First of all, I just wanna say this, he is playing. Whether you think he should sit or not is your opinion you can have it but don't get your hopes up. DLo isn't gonna sit this one out. He wouldn't miss this one for the world.

Secondly, even though he was off shooting, he moved fine all game, I think his only problem is when he used his legs to shoot, there is pain in the calf and it distracts him from making the shot. But strap him up with some pain killers and play him. Sitting him for one day isn't gonna save him from a calf injury. We play Wednesday anyway.

Come on. Have some pride, no duke game doesn't matter for our big east record, but that doesn't mean we call the dogs off so coach K can start sipping on champagne with a 20 point lead at halftime.

I say we go for the win. And if we steal this, somehow, 8-10 or 9-9 might even get us into the tournament as opposed to 10-8 or 11-7. Play to win. Go redmen

I hear you, but sitting him out gives him a full week to rest it, and might help alot.
On the other hand, if he's feeling good, and the pain doesn't distract his shot, and he could drive to the hoop. Then by all means play him. I'd love to beat Duke too.

All I want is a healthy Harrison is all I'm saying. He his the most important part of this team.
In the words, you might lose the battle but winning the war. By the "war" reference, I mean getting to the NCAA Tournament.

I see what you mean, and I would agree, but to me DLo didn't look as bad as many make it sound. I think he came out pressing a bit and rushed his first few and it got in his head, paired with some pain in the calf, I don't think this is something to freak about

 

[ADORAZ]

I want Harrison playing. This is the biggest game for every player on this team in terms of relevancy (likely TV viewership, news coverage, etc) and will be one of the most talked about games all year. If SJU gets blown out, rest him.

 

[beast of the east]

Marquette thoughts:http://www.bigeastboards.com/

Can't say I agree with everything, but a lot of it is spot on.

I do agree with Fun's point regarding Greene's dunk at the end of the game, should have dribbled into corner to run out the clock. In fact that's what I expected when Jordan hit him with the pass.

I'll take the dunk. Anything can happen trying to run 11 seconds off the clock, including a turnover or tieup (see Max Hooper). The way we lined up for it, I was expecting one of our guys bunched behind midcourt to break long, but the way it was executed was actually more elaborate and reliable than a hail mary for a dunk.

Agree on the dunk, disagree on fouling Carlino with 11 seconds left. Stopping the clock by fouling their best shooter and letting them cut the lead to 1 with all that time left makes no sense to me whatsoever. At the very least play them tight beyond the 3 and force them to drive for 2. It kills more time off the clock and forces them to make a FG as opposed to putting Carlino at the charity stripe. And if they hit a crazy 3 worst case scenario you're headed for OT. By fouling with 11 seconds left you're actually setting Marquette up to get a W. Now we got the W so all's well that ends well, but I still don't like that move at all right there.

This. I am somewhat of a Lavin defender but many of you might have heard me screaming when they fouled Carlino. It may have worked out ok but it is one of the dumbest moves I've ever seen and the only way to lose the game in regulation. Greene's move was actually smart, although people are conditioned to think differently, an easy basket should not be passed up to go to the line in a one and one situation. It may be called a free throw but we all know they are never gimmes with the game on the line.

Monte "And if they hit a crazy 3 worst case scenario you're headed for OT."

But why even allow him to attempt a crazy 3 to force OT? To me Lavin did the right thing there by fouling? You never know what could happen in OT.

It takes exactly 2.5 seconds to go end to end on a 94 foot court. 11 seconds is plenty of time to get off a good look three, even rebound ant put it in w a foul. It didn't have to be a crazy three.

 

[chronicbucks]

I was watching a game recently where the coach chose to play solid D. Opposition hit a 3 and took it to overtime and won. I foul there. The only thing we did wrong was not force them to burn more time in the backcourt.

Phil Greene going in for that dunk, as opposed to dribbling some clock out was PURE stupidity. You HAVE to dribble down the clock, Carlino rushed into a shot, but he could have had a much better look if he dribbled a little deeper.

 

[simplyred]

I was watching a game recently where the coach chose to play solid D. Opposition hit a 3 and took it to overtime and won. I foul there. The only thing we did wrong was not force them to burn more time in the backcourt.

Phil Greene going in for that dunk, as opposed to dribbling some clock out was PURE stupidity. You HAVE to dribble down the clock, Carlino rushed into a shot, but he could have had a much better look if he dribbled a little deeper.

Agree to disagree. I'll move on.

 

[SJU14]

I was watching a game recently where the coach chose to play solid D. Opposition hit a 3 and took it to overtime and won. I foul there. The only thing we did wrong was not force them to burn more time in the backcourt.

Phil Greene going in for that dunk, as opposed to dribbling some clock out was PURE stupidity. You HAVE to dribble down the clock, Carlino rushed into a shot, but he could have had a much better look if he dribbled a little deeper.

With the way our team shoots FTs, I like taking the easy dunk. We were also in the 1 and 1 which means if we missed the first FT, they could've won the game with just a 2 point basket

 

[ADORAZ]

I was watching a game recently where the coach chose to play solid D. Opposition hit a 3 and took it to overtime and won. I foul there. The only thing we did wrong was not force them to burn more time in the backcourt.

Phil Greene going in for that dunk, as opposed to dribbling some clock out was PURE stupidity. You HAVE to dribble down the clock, Carlino rushed into a shot, but he could have had a much better look if he dribbled a little deeper.

Disagree. They likely would've been fouled and needed to hit 1 and 1. Miss one and you can lose.

 

[ADORAZ]

Has this been posted? Top 5 plays.

 

[monte]

I thought the intentional foul with 11 seconds still left in the game was ridiculous. We were still shooting 1 and 1 so a quick foul by Marquette would have given them the ball back with about 10 seconds left with the possibility of only being down a point and nothing would have been accomplished. Thankfully Greene got a breakaway dunk and was able to run a bit of time off the clock

I couldn't agree more. Maybe you foul with three seconds left, but if Jordan for example had gotten fouled and missed the one and one Marquette has ten seconds to win the game with a two pointer or foul shots. I hated that play.

Heck more often than not teams will take a quick 2 and then foul with that much time left

If we didn't foul and they hit a three to tie the game, people would be complaining that we didn't foul. SJU won the game. This nitpicking will drive you crazy.

I was saying to foul during the timeout, especially with Carlino having the ball. He did hit 4 straight at one point during the game. Good move by Lavin.

I don't think you're allowed to foul during a time out. Pretty sure that's an automatic technical

 

[Jack Williams]

I was watching a game recently where the coach chose to play solid D. Opposition hit a 3 and took it to overtime and won. I foul there. The only thing we did wrong was not force them to burn more time in the backcourt.

Phil Greene going in for that dunk, as opposed to dribbling some clock out was PURE stupidity. You HAVE to dribble down the clock, Carlino rushed into a shot, but he could have had a much better look if he dribbled a little deeper.

I call BS. Marquette would've gotten to him with at least 5 seconds left. And then what if he missed one or both free throws. In fact we were still in 1 and 1 situation. That dunk eliminated any kind of free throw choking

 

[monte]

I was watching a game recently where the coach chose to play solid D. Opposition hit a 3 and took it to overtime and won. I foul there. The only thing we did wrong was not force them to burn more time in the backcourt.

Phil Greene going in for that dunk, as opposed to dribbling some clock out was PURE stupidity. You HAVE to dribble down the clock, Carlino rushed into a shot, but he could have had a much better look if he dribbled a little deeper.

With the way our team shoots FTs, I like taking the easy dunk. We were also in the 1 and 1 which means if we missed the first FT, they could've won the game with just a 2 point basket

Same theory for why we shouldn't have fouled Carlino, especially with 11 seconds left. After his FTs, had they fouled us immediately and had we missed 1(easily within the realm of possibility), we then put Marquette in a position to win with plenty of time left on the clock. Had we not fouled, the best they could have done is tie. Makes zero sense to me. In fact the more I think about it the dumber I think it was.

 

[weathermannyc]

I was watching a game recently where the coach chose to play solid D. Opposition hit a 3 and took it to overtime and won. I foul there. The only thing we did wrong was not force them to burn more time in the backcourt.

Phil Greene going in for that dunk, as opposed to dribbling some clock out was PURE stupidity. You HAVE to dribble down the clock, Carlino rushed into a shot, but he could have had a much better look if he dribbled a little deeper.

With the way our team shoots FTs, I like taking the easy dunk. We were also in the 1 and 1 which means if we missed the first FT, they could've won the game with just a 2 point basket

I think Phil did the right thing. Take the dunk and the guaranteed three point lead. If we weren't in the one and one, then I'd be more open to dribbling down the clock a little. Also, I think the decision to foul Carlino with 11 seconds left was a mistake. Too many bad things can happen with that much time on the clock, while still being in the one-and-one without a timeout. Also, if you prefer fouling in this situation, then why not do it on the last possession? That is EXACTLY when you SHOULD employ this strategy. (so little time left on the clock that the numerous bad things that can happen have a lower probability than a single attempted three pointer being made.)

What can go wrong with fouling:
1. foul while taking a three pointer. (we've done this before)
2. give up an offensive rebound (did that a lot late in the game)
3. turnover off the inbound after made free throw (see @Marq, SH and PC games last year)
4. gain possession up 1 or 2 and miss front end of one-and-one

These are the reasons why you ABSOLUTELY can't employ this strategy with 11 seconds left.

KenPom had an article on this two years ago.

http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/entry/yet_another_study_about_fouling_when_up_3

There are lot of factors that need to be considered before you can call this the best strategy. But, note that the study only counted possessions between 5 and 12 seconds remaining at the start of the possession. The possession where we fouled started with 14 seconds left...which is just too much time.

 

[danfog]

With Harrison hurting so much why did it take so long for coach to switch him off him?

 

[bk8664]

With Harrison hurting so much why did it take so long for coach to switch him off him?

Because the staff wanted to provide fodder for you to start a thread. The staff is looking out for you, the fan.

 

[monte]

Any shot he wants to go to law school and we can get another graduate year out of him?