Lavin The Genius

[Ray Morgan]

you have to build a game plan around the type of players you have. We are very athletic but a poor shooting team. Yet it appears we run the same plays as if we are a good shooting team. We must play to our stremgths until we get shooters. Lav is a great recruiter and represents us very well. He needs a great Xs and Os guy to build a better and smarter game plan.

Most coaches do it the other way around; they have a system they are comfortable with, and recruit players that fit into that system. And that system was often taught to them by their mentor. The plan here was to have an athletic bunch that would outrun the defense. The problem is they can't run because they can't rebound and don't create turnovers. That indicates a lack of both fundamentals and basketball instincts. Their inability to attack the zone is due to the lack of an inside presence that can score, and the lack of a penetrating PG. In other words, no players that can make things happen. On paper, things looked better. Norvel Pelle would have been the inside presence and rebounder. Harkless would have stayed two years,which, even without Pelle, would have changed the dynamic in a big way. Harrison would not have gone south in year two. What's left is a great team for a dunk contest and a track meet, but not for a basketball game. I do not think Lavin is the problem as far as game coaching. He just needs better players. In the end, good players win games and make the coaches look smarter than they are.

Ever watched Lavin on the sidelines when we are on offense?

He stands there with his arms folded. His only motion is swinging his arms to run the weave.

You can sit here and say every coach in the country needs better players. All that does is take Lavin off the hook. He recruited these players. He needs to be held accountable.

We're heavily recruiting Carrington for 2014. Ever see him play? 6'2 "combo guard". Jordan? Combo guard.

How about a natural PG for once. A kid who puts his head down and gets into the lane and can dish. I'd trade D'Angelo Harrison for Malik Boothe in a second. Jakarr and Obekpa would get 2-3 more easy buckets a game and Marco could just stand in the corner and catch & shoot.

So IMO it's not about better players per se. It's about the type of players that Lavin is infatuated with.

I will hold Lavin accountable in year 5, not year two with his players. A lot of disgruntled posters, all in what is year 3 with the expected bumps in the road. Year 1, an unexpected regular season filled with upsets and a tourney appearance. Year 2 a mess between Lavin's health and the non qualifiers. Year three will hopefully end in the NIT. I will agree that his recruiting has been imbalanced. There are parts missing. But my original point is that if Lavin was such a horror show as a coach, how is the team 8-9 in the Big East with a roster this incomplete? Yes, you can say Lavin can't coach and this team is missing the essentials required to win at this level, but then we would be Depaul and South Florida, which we are not. This new infatuation with Bourgault is also troubling. Just create for him when he is open. Yes, that's the ticket. If that was the case, Terrence Mullin would have averaged 20 a game. Perhaps that 32% that comes under 3 point % in Bourgaults's stat column means something. Unless that is all Lavin's fault as well.

 

[SJUalum98]

you have to build a game plan around the type of players you have. We are very athletic but a poor shooting team. Yet it appears we run the same plays as if we are a good shooting team. We must play to our stremgths until we get shooters. Lav is a great recruiter and represents us very well. He needs a great Xs and Os guy to build a better and smarter game plan.

Most coaches do it the other way around; they have a system they are comfortable with, and recruit players that fit into that system. And that system was often taught to them by their mentor. The plan here was to have an athletic bunch that would outrun the defense. The problem is they can't run because they can't rebound and don't create turnovers. That indicates a lack of both fundamentals and basketball instincts. Their inability to attack the zone is due to the lack of an inside presence that can score, and the lack of a penetrating PG. In other words, no players that can make things happen. On paper, things looked better. Norvel Pelle would have been the inside presence and rebounder. Harkless would have stayed two years,which, even without Pelle, would have changed the dynamic in a big way. Harrison would not have gone south in year two. What's left is a great team for a dunk contest and a track meet, but not for a basketball game. I do not think Lavin is the problem as far as game coaching. He just needs better players. In the end, good players win games and make the coaches look smarter than they are.

Ever watched Lavin on the sidelines when we are on offense?

He stands there with his arms folded. His only motion is swinging his arms to run the weave.

You can sit here and say every coach in the country needs better players. All that does is take Lavin off the hook. He recruited these players. He needs to be held accountable.

We're heavily recruiting Carrington for 2014. Ever see him play? 6'2 "combo guard". Jordan? Combo guard.

How about a natural PG for once. A kid who puts his head down and gets into the lane and can dish. I'd trade D'Angelo Harrison for Malik Boothe in a second. Jakarr and Obekpa would get 2-3 more easy buckets a game and Marco could just stand in the corner and catch & shoot.

So IMO it's not about better players per se. It's about the type of players that Lavin is infatuated with.

I will hold Lavin accountable in year 5, not year two with his players. A lot of disgruntled posters, all in what is year 3 with the expected bumps in the road. Year 1, an unexpected regular season filled with upsets and a tourney appearance. Year 2 a mess between Lavin's health and the non qualifiers. Year three will hopefully end in the NIT. I will agree that his recruiting has been imbalanced. There are parts missing. But my original point is that if Lavin was such a horror show as a coach, how is the team 8-9 in the Big East with a roster this incomplete? Yes, you can say Lavin can't coach and this team is missing the essentials required to win at this level, but then we would be Depaul and South Florida, which we are not. This new infatuation with Bourgault is also troubling. Just create for him when he is open. Yes, that's the ticket. If that was the case, Terrence Mullin would have averaged 20 a game. Perhaps that 32% that comes under 3 point % in Bourgaults's stat column means something. Unless that is all Lavin's fault as well.

We beat up on the worst teams in conference, that's how.

You can win on sheer talent alone but you cannot sustain it without a competent gameplan.

I take nothing from beating Depaul twice, USF, Seton Hall and Rutgers once. Throw in a Hail Mary by D'Angelo against Cincy and there you have it.

Lavin said on SNY that he wished he had the UNCA, Nova and 1st Rutgers game back and we'd be on the bubble.

Well in the UNCA game, he sat on his ass while UNCA erased a 17 point deficit. He was too good to call a timeout.
In the Rutgers game, he sat back as D'Lo and Jakarr played hero ball and chucked up 3s when they weren't necessary.

Does that fall under "youngest team in America"?

 

[beast of the east]

you have to build a game plan around the type of players you have. We are very athletic but a poor shooting team. Yet it appears we run the same plays as if we are a good shooting team. We must play to our stremgths until we get shooters. Lav is a great recruiter and represents us very well. He needs a great Xs and Os guy to build a better and smarter game plan.

Most coaches do it the other way around; they have a system they are comfortable with, and recruit players that fit into that system. And that system was often taught to them by their mentor. The plan here was to have an athletic bunch that would outrun the defense. The problem is they can't run because they can't rebound and don't create turnovers. That indicates a lack of both fundamentals and basketball instincts. Their inability to attack the zone is due to the lack of an inside presence that can score, and the lack of a penetrating PG. In other words, no players that can make things happen. On paper, things looked better. Norvel Pelle would have been the inside presence and rebounder. Harkless would have stayed two years,which, even without Pelle, would have changed the dynamic in a big way. Harrison would not have gone south in year two. What's left is a great team for a dunk contest and a track meet, but not for a basketball game. I do not think Lavin is the problem as far as game coaching. He just needs better players. In the end, good players win games and make the coaches look smarter than they are.

Ever watched Lavin on the sidelines when we are on offense?

He stands there with his arms folded. His only motion is swinging his arms to run the weave.

You can sit here and say every coach in the country needs better players. All that does is take Lavin off the hook. He recruited these players. He needs to be held accountable.

We're heavily recruiting Carrington for 2014. Ever see him play? 6'2 "combo guard". Jordan? Combo guard.

How about a natural PG for once. A kid who puts his head down and gets into the lane and can dish. I'd trade D'Angelo Harrison for Malik Boothe in a second. Jakarr and Obekpa would get 2-3 more easy buckets a game and Marco could just stand in the corner and catch & shoot.

So IMO it's not about better players per se. It's about the type of players that Lavin is infatuated with.

I will hold Lavin accountable in year 5, not year two with his players. A lot of disgruntled posters, all in what is year 3 with the expected bumps in the road. Year 1, an unexpected regular season filled with upsets and a tourney appearance. Year 2 a mess between Lavin's health and the non qualifiers. Year three will hopefully end in the NIT. I will agree that his recruiting has been imbalanced. There are parts missing. But my original point is that if Lavin was such a horror show as a coach, how is the team 8-9 in the Big East with a roster this incomplete? Yes, you can say Lavin can't coach and this team is missing the essentials required to win at this level, but then we would be Depaul and South Florida, which we are not. This new infatuation with Bourgault is also troubling. Just create for him when he is open. Yes, that's the ticket. If that was the case, Terrence Mullin would have averaged 20 a game. Perhaps that 32% that comes under 3 point % in Bourgaults's stat column means something. Unless that is all Lavin's fault as well.

We beat up on the worst teams in conference, that's how.

You can win on sheer talent alone but you cannot sustain it without a competent gameplan.

I take nothing from beating Depaul twice, USF, Seton Hall and Rutgers once. Throw in a Hail Mary by D'Angelo against Cincy and there you have it.

Lavin said on SNY that he wished he had the UNCA, Nova and 1st Rutgers game back and we'd be on the bubble.

Well in the UNCA game, he sat on his ass while UNCA erased a 17 point deficit. He was too good to call a timeout.
In the Rutgers game, he sat back as D'Lo and Jakarr played hero ball and chucked up 3s when they weren't necessary.

Does that fall under "youngest team in America"?

Just so you are aware, Lavin, who was extremely close to Wooden, leaned on Wooden's knowledge of the game.

Wooden's game philosophy was that he hated to call timeouts. "It's a sign of weakness", Wooden would like to say with a smile. HE would then explain that if you did your job in practice, having to call timeouts was not necessary. It's hard to argue with 11 championships in 13 years.

Not saying it's right or wrong, and don't remember if LAvin did not sub s ingle player as UNCA closed the gap. Just saying.

 

[we are sju]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Sticking purely to basketball, there is simply no way we could be a better basketball team w/o Harrison as we only have one other player you could consitently make shots. With Harrison and Sampson we were a bad offensive team. Without one of them we are in the Peach Basket era

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Agree that stats don't tell the whole picture, and agree that we played well under difficult circumstances, and hard/good enough to win. If we left it at that there is little question it's fair.

It's when we try to draw conclusions as to the cause for us playing that way (Harrison's absence) that I think it gets really murky really fast, which is why I pointed out the stats (because they are jarringly bad). We played well, but not well enough to reach that threshold in my opinion. We've played better than that with Harrison, and we've also played worse than that with Harrison.

I was really proud of the effort, but it's not like we saw a brand new team that went out and beat Georgetown. As I mentioned I thought there were definitely some added team intangibles, which is important. Otherwise I pretty much saw the same strong play from Sampson/Pointer/Obekpa and the same shaky play from everybody else, specifically the guards on both ends of the floor (24% shooting for our four, 34 points for Cotton/Council alone) which, in addition to Providence's offensive rebounding, is where we lost the game. We followed that up with the absolute worst (and probably only embarassing) game of the season at ND.

My point being I see them as separate issues. The coaching staff felt he needed to be suspended so he was. I just don't think we've seen much in the balance of the two games since the suspension to indicate we're better without him.

In no way did I mean to insinuate the reason we played with more cohesiveness against Providence was BECAUSE Harrison wasn't there, just that one cannot assume we would have played that way with Harrison and won because obviously having Harrison imoroves our talent level. Just as obviously, the cohesiveness was an abberation because we reverted back against ND. Also we looked better against Providence but in a baby steps kind of way, not that Providence was anything resembling a great or even good game. We just looked better, potentially something to build on. Did not happen short term.

Sticking clearly to basketball there is no way we are a better team w/o Harrison as that leaves only one other player that can make shots. Even with Harrison we were a bad offensive team.

 

[ZanMan]

I sincerely believe that Coach is a great fit for STJs and he will get this done. Stop moaning already and try to enjoy rooting for your team. If you can't, then just root for whoever is on top. I hear Hoya jerseys are selling pretty good.

And please stop complaining about who we have beaten and how we beat them. It sounds like a bratty kid on Christmas morning who didn't get all the toys that he wanted. Bottom line is that they still have a chance (albeit slim) to go 9-9 in the BE. That isn't exactly dreadful.

I too wish we were further along, but at least we aren't 150 in the RPI like we were under the last regime each year and completely irrelevant. And call me insane, but as long as the BET is still happening and we have a chance to a win a few games, I haven't buried my team just yet.

For me, next year is when I get a lot more critical. No NCAAs next year and then I will be more apt to complain about the job Coach has done.

Did coach steal your girlfriend years ago? Did you lose your house betting that UCLA would be National Champs when he was there? I really am surprised about the constant complaining about Lavin lately.

Funny how I don't remember hearing this stuff when they were on that winning streak.

 

[bk8664]

I sincerely believe that Coach is a great fit for STJs and he will get this done. Stop moaning already and try to enjoy rooting for your team. If you can't, then just root for whoever is on top. I hear Hoya jerseys are selling pretty good.

And please stop complaining about who we have beaten and how we beat them. It sounds like a bratty kid on Christmas morning who didn't get all the toys that he wanted. Bottom line is that they still have a chance (albeit slim) to go 9-9 in the BE. That isn't exactly dreadful.

I too wish we were further along, but at least we aren't 150 in the RPI like we were under the last regime each year and completely irrelevant. And call me insane, but as long as the BET is still happening and we have a chance to a win a few games, I haven't buried my team just yet.

For me, next year is when I get a lot more critical. No NCAAs next year and then I will be more apt to complain about the job Coach has done.

Did coach steal your girlfriend years ago? Did you lose your house betting that UCLA would be National Champs when he was there? I really am surprised about the constant complaining about Lavin lately.

Funny how I don't remember hearing this stuff when they were on that winning streak.

What he said.

 

[we are sju]

I sincerely believe that Coach is a great fit for STJs and he will get this done. Stop moaning already and try to enjoy rooting for your team. If you can't, then just root for whoever is on top. I hear Hoya jerseys are selling pretty good.

And please stop complaining about who we have beaten and how we beat them. It sounds like a bratty kid on Christmas morning who didn't get all the toys that he wanted. Bottom line is that they still have a chance (albeit slim) to go 9-9 in the BE. That isn't exactly dreadful.

I too wish we were further along, but at least we aren't 150 in the RPI like we were under the last regime each year and completely irrelevant. And call me insane, but as long as the BET is still happening and we have a chance to a win a few games, I haven't buried my team just yet.

For me, next year is when I get a lot more critical. No NCAAs next year and then I will be more apt to complain about the job Coach has done.

Did coach steal your girlfriend years ago? Did you lose your house betting that UCLA would be National Champs when he was there? I really am surprised about the constant complaining about Lavin lately.

Funny how I don't remember hearing this stuff when they were on that winning streak.

Alot of pressure next year on Sanchez!
We were picked 10th preseason in the BE with Harrison and Sanchez. Next year with Harrison I believe we would have been a tourney team. W/o Harrison, even if Sanchez is really good someone on current roster has to step up tremendously for us to make tourney. I think Pointer and Branch will be better, but enough to make up for Harrison? I don't know.

 

[we are sju]

I sincerely believe that Coach is a great fit for STJs and he will get this done. Stop moaning already and try to enjoy rooting for your team. If you can't, then just root for whoever is on top. I hear Hoya jerseys are selling pretty good.

And please stop complaining about who we have beaten and how we beat them. It sounds like a bratty kid on Christmas morning who didn't get all the toys that he wanted. Bottom line is that they still have a chance (albeit slim) to go 9-9 in the BE. That isn't exactly dreadful.

I too wish we were further along, but at least we aren't 150 in the RPI like we were under the last regime each year and completely irrelevant. And call me insane, but as long as the BET is still happening and we have a chance to a win a few games, I haven't buried my team just yet.

For me, next year is when I get a lot more critical. No NCAAs next year and then I will be more apt to complain about the job Coach has done.

Did coach steal your girlfriend years ago? Did you lose your house betting that UCLA would be National Champs when he was there? I really am surprised about the constant complaining about Lavin lately.

Funny how I don't remember hearing this stuff when they were on that winning streak.

Alot of pressure next year on Sanchez!
We were picked 10th preseason in the BE with Harrison and Sanchez. Next year with Harrison I believe we would have been a tourney team. W/o Harrison, even if Sanchez is really good someone on current roster has to step up tremendously for us to make tourney. I think Pointer and Branch will be better, but enough to make up for Harrison? I don't know.

I expect Sampson to return and improve but he is already good. Need one of Branch or Pointer to make big improvement to make tourney was my point.

 

[T6K0E6]

Perspective:

Norm Roberts
2004–2005 St. John's 9-18 3-13 13th
2005–2006 St. John's 12-15 5-11 T-13th
2006–2007 St. John's 16-15 7-9 11th
2007–2008 St. John's 11-19 5-13 14th
2008–2009 St. John's 16-18 6-12 13th CBI, First Round
2009–2010 St. John's 17-16 6-12 13th NIT, First Round

Steve Lavin
2010–11 St. John's 21–12 12–6 5th NCAA First Round
2011–12 St. John's 13–19 6–12 T–11th (Only Coached 4 games, no depth)
2012-13 St. John's 16-13 8-9 10th (Possible NIT Birth) (Current Season)

Mike Krzyzewski
1980–81 Duke 17–13 6–8 T–5th NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82 Duke 10–17 4–10 T–6th
1982–83 Duke 11–17 3–11 7th


Can everyone please now shut up and give the man at least 5 or 6 seasons to prove himself. If you are whining after two season, I would hate to see how you deal with adversity in your personal life, and how far that has gotten you.

 

[vandiemen8]

Great post!

 

[SJU1512]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Agree that stats don't tell the whole picture, and agree that we played well under difficult circumstances, and hard/good enough to win. If we left it at that there is little question it's fair.

It's when we try to draw conclusions as to the cause for us playing that way (Harrison's absence) that I think it gets really murky really fast, which is why I pointed out the stats (because they are jarringly bad). We played well, but not well enough to reach that threshold in my opinion. We've played better than that with Harrison, and we've also played worse than that with Harrison.

I was really proud of the effort, but it's not like we saw a brand new team that went out and beat Georgetown. As I mentioned I thought there were definitely some added team intangibles, which is important. Otherwise I pretty much saw the same strong play from Sampson/Pointer/Obekpa and the same shaky play from everybody else, specifically the guards on both ends of the floor (24% shooting for our four, 34 points for Cotton/Council alone) which, in addition to Providence's offensive rebounding, is where we lost the game. We followed that up with the absolute worst (and probably only embarassing) game of the season at ND.

My point being I see them as separate issues. The coaching staff felt he needed to be suspended so he was. I just don't think we've seen much in the balance of the two games since the suspension to indicate we're better without him.

Don't extrapolate my post to say something I am not saying. I do think we played our best game in a month or more. I missed the UCONN game so I can't say how we played in that game. I am a fan of Harrison's raw ability, and think he possesses all the tools to be a top D1 guard. He has very good court vision as well, and while I've been very critical of his play even before the collapse, I do think he could be special if he harnesses his talent.

What I have said is that based on his shot selection, lack of movement, etc, I think the team played better in PRovidence. The ball moved, there were 2nd and third passes even when someone had an open look - very selfless play, team ball. That doesn't mean the team is somehow better. In reality it isn't even so much in the starting team, but the bench is one player shorter in terms of quality coming off the bench. I would rather watch the PRovidence game over and over than a repeat of most of this season, that's all.

Sorry, in no way did I mean to imply that you were saying we were better without Harrison. Actually, I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you are saying, and was just referring to the theme (which has been out there throughtout these threads for the last week) generally.

 

[SJU1512]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Agree that stats don't tell the whole picture, and agree that we played well under difficult circumstances, and hard/good enough to win. If we left it at that there is little question it's fair.

It's when we try to draw conclusions as to the cause for us playing that way (Harrison's absence) that I think it gets really murky really fast, which is why I pointed out the stats (because they are jarringly bad). We played well, but not well enough to reach that threshold in my opinion. We've played better than that with Harrison, and we've also played worse than that with Harrison.

I was really proud of the effort, but it's not like we saw a brand new team that went out and beat Georgetown. As I mentioned I thought there were definitely some added team intangibles, which is important. Otherwise I pretty much saw the same strong play from Sampson/Pointer/Obekpa and the same shaky play from everybody else, specifically the guards on both ends of the floor (24% shooting for our four, 34 points for Cotton/Council alone) which, in addition to Providence's offensive rebounding, is where we lost the game. We followed that up with the absolute worst (and probably only embarassing) game of the season at ND.

My point being I see them as separate issues. The coaching staff felt he needed to be suspended so he was. I just don't think we've seen much in the balance of the two games since the suspension to indicate we're better without him.

In no way did I mean to insinuate the reason we played with more cohesiveness against Providence was BECAUSE Harrison wasn't there, just that one cannot assume we would have played that way with Harrison and won because obviously having Harrison imoroves our talent level. Just as obviously, the cohesiveness was an abberation because we reverted back against ND. Also we looked better against Providence but in a baby steps kind of way, not that Providence was anything resembling a great or even good game. We just looked better, potentially something to build on. Did not happen short term.

I hear you, and apologies if I took what you were trying to say too far. I'm with you on the above (Prov was an improvement, something to build on, and ND was a reversion).

 

[mjmaherjr]

Perspective:

Norm Roberts
2004–2005 St. John's 9-18 3-13 13th
2005–2006 St. John's 12-15 5-11 T-13th
2006–2007 St. John's 16-15 7-9 11th
2007–2008 St. John's 11-19 5-13 14th
2008–2009 St. John's 16-18 6-12 13th CBI, First Round
2009–2010 St. John's 17-16 6-12 13th NIT, First Round

Steve Lavin
2010–11 St. John's 21–12 12–6 5th NCAA First Round
2011–12 St. John's 13–19 6–12 T–11th (Only Coached 4 games, no depth)
2012-13 St. John's 16-13 8-9 10th (Possible NIT Birth) (Current Season)

Mike Krzyzewski
1980–81 Duke 17–13 6–8 T–5th NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82 Duke 10–17 4–10 T–6th
1982–83 Duke 11–17 3–11 7th


Can everyone please now shut up and give the man at least 5 or 6 seasons to prove himself. If you are whining after two season, I would hate to see how you deal with adversity in your personal life, and how far that has gotten you.

I hope you rot in hell for reminding me of that debacle

 

[beast of the east]

Perspective:

Norm Roberts
2004–2005 St. John's 9-18 3-13 13th
2005–2006 St. John's 12-15 5-11 T-13th
2006–2007 St. John's 16-15 7-9 11th
2007–2008 St. John's 11-19 5-13 14th
2008–2009 St. John's 16-18 6-12 13th CBI, First Round
2009–2010 St. John's 17-16 6-12 13th NIT, First Round

Steve Lavin
2010–11 St. John's 21–12 12–6 5th NCAA First Round
2011–12 St. John's 13–19 6–12 T–11th (Only Coached 4 games, no depth)
2012-13 St. John's 16-13 8-9 10th (Possible NIT Birth) (Current Season)

Mike Krzyzewski
1980–81 Duke 17–13 6–8 T–5th NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82 Duke 10–17 4–10 T–6th
1982–83 Duke 11–17 3–11 7th


Can everyone please now shut up and give the man at least 5 or 6 seasons to prove himself. If you are whining after two season, I would hate to see how you deal with adversity in your personal life, and how far that has gotten you.

Let's see how many you win when you get cancer. Hopefully you will win the only one that counts.

 

[Section3]

you have to build a game plan around the type of players you have. We are very athletic but a poor shooting team. Yet it appears we run the same plays as if we are a good shooting team. We must play to our stremgths until we get shooters. Lav is a great recruiter and represents us very well. He needs a great Xs and Os guy to build a better and smarter game plan.

Most coaches do it the other way around; they have a system they are comfortable with, and recruit players that fit into that system. And that system was often taught to them by their mentor. The plan here was to have an athletic bunch that would outrun the defense. The problem is they can't run because they can't rebound and don't create turnovers. That indicates a lack of both fundamentals and basketball instincts. Their inability to attack the zone is due to the lack of an inside presence that can score, and the lack of a penetrating PG. In other words, no players that can make things happen. On paper, things looked better. Norvel Pelle would have been the inside presence and rebounder. Harkless would have stayed two years,which, even without Pelle, would have changed the dynamic in a big way. Harrison would not have gone south in year two. What's left is a great team for a dunk contest and a track meet, but not for a basketball game. I do not think Lavin is the problem as far as game coaching. He just needs better players. In the end, good players win games and make the coaches look smarter than they are.

No catch and go up through contact in the lane scorer (Sanchez), Branch looks less explosive post-injury, minimal time if any of Branch feeding Marco and DLO on the floor at the same time. It just never came together. Boy do we need a gym rat CYO point guard to orchestrate all these combos. Going back to UCLA Lavin's teams always seemed less than than the sum of their parts to me, BUT I am way biased against teams that overpower vs. teams that out structure and out smart their opponents.

Prior to his injury, I think Branch demonstrated ability to get to the basket as well as a reliable outside shot...since returning, he has lost a bit...doesnt seem to have his legs under his jump shot....hopefully het gets it back soon or at least next year

 

[T6K0E6]

Perspective:

Norm Roberts
2004–2005 St. John's 9-18 3-13 13th
2005–2006 St. John's 12-15 5-11 T-13th
2006–2007 St. John's 16-15 7-9 11th
2007–2008 St. John's 11-19 5-13 14th
2008–2009 St. John's 16-18 6-12 13th CBI, First Round
2009–2010 St. John's 17-16 6-12 13th NIT, First Round

Steve Lavin
2010–11 St. John's 21–12 12–6 5th NCAA First Round
2011–12 St. John's 13–19 6–12 T–11th (Only Coached 4 games, no depth)
2012-13 St. John's 16-13 8-9 10th (Possible NIT Birth) (Current Season)

Mike Krzyzewski
1980–81 Duke 17–13 6–8 T–5th NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82 Duke 10–17 4–10 T–6th
1982–83 Duke 11–17 3–11 7th


Can everyone please now shut up and give the man at least 5 or 6 seasons to prove himself. If you are whining after two season, I would hate to see how you deal with adversity in your personal life, and how far that has gotten you.

Just a little quote to add more to this:
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/colleges/post/_/id/5555/w2w4-st-johns-vs-marquette
"A win would put the Red Storm in a tie for eighth place, with the winner of Saturday's UConn-Providence game, and possibly Cincinnati as well. A loss could drop them as far as 11th."


Today we are flirting with 8th to 11th place depending on the outcome of other games. Norms best year was 11th place and that is worst case scenario for us right now.

There is only one thing to do, win today, and bring that NIT Trophy back home, add the hardware to the wall.

 

[jrhoops1949]

When was the last time a coach or school suspended a player, any player for more than a game? Not to mention their leading scorer for anything other than some sort of NCAA/academic/drugs infraction? So I read the Lenn Robins article in the post today. First off he is not 100% correct (Dom did throw the first official punch but the kid from ND clearly got to Dom first and hit him in the head). He is making us out to be full on thugs which we are not. Doms reaction is one of frustration after getting bombed for 44 pts and shooting 18% in the second half and I really cant blame him when considering all the factors. All of this could have been avoided if our coach didnt think the overall team would be better served keeping our leading scorer out for 4+ games. Something that is unprecedented. Now many alum including myself have wasted thousands of dollars and countless hours that were invested in this program. Not to mention the kids left on the team who had a dream of potentially making a late season run. Not only is that not happening the frustration of playing without him has given the program another black eye. Thanks coach I hope your teaching moment was worth it.

If any on the board really knows what went on with DH, can ya tell? What Amir did in the first N.Dame game was real nasty. He could have split that kids face open. The guys on Georgetown showed the right stuff that day, and now they're champs. Oh, and the next time we played them they kicked our butts again. If Lavs gonna bring in kids who are tough guys, I hope they can board.

I agree with you, suspending the best player for the rest of the season was ridiculous, having Dom in the game after he already slapped a ND player in the face was ridiculous....but my Q is this...Why didnt Lav suspend Dom for the rest of the season? Starting a fight on national TV isn't worse than whatever it was that Harrison did to get suspended for the rest of the season? I don't follow that logic at all.

Because Dom didn't start the fight. He retaliated from being slapped in the face.

But ND will play the victim card.

He may not have started the fight, but he did throw punches and got ejected after getting a flagarant earlier-- so Lav is ok with that-- but not ok with Harrison shaking his head and having "poor body language" on the court. Please.

 

[beast of the east]

Maybe it's not that big an indicator, but all I know is that for a few years I had almost no SJU gear in my closet, and the little I had would rarely wear outside. Now I have multiple sweatshirt, windbreakers, golf shirt, t shirts, and will wear them anywhere. Not that I'm a fashionista, but anyone can definitely wear SJU gear with pride now, something that was a no-no just three years ago under the NR regime. We can thank Lavin for that.

 

[Jnaw17]

Maybe it's not that big an indicator, but all I know is that for a few years I had almost no SJU gear in my closet, and the little I had would rarely wear outside. Now I have multiple sweatshirt, windbreakers, golf shirt, t shirts, and will wear them anywhere. Not that I'm a fashionista, but anyone can definitely wear SJU gear with pride now, something that was a no-no just three years ago under the NR regime. We can thank Lavin for that.

I think it's a big indicator of Lav's impact and our progress. I was in the same boat with only a few items a few years ago, and now I have tons. I live in central Jersey and also like the reaction of people who see the name and recognize the team. Good stuff.

 

[redken]

The title of this thread is so mean-spirited that I haven't even bothered to read 95% of the posts, so forgive me if I'm echoing someone else's take on this. Is Lavin the best X's and O's coach around? No. We all knew that when he came here, but the overwhelming majority of us were excited -- make that very excited -- that someone who had taken UCLA deep into the NCAAs pretty much on a regular basis was taking over our moribund program. What we expected Lavin to do was energize the program, get the team back in the national spotlight, get the program back in a winning mode, and attract high-profile recruits ... and he's done all that while having to spend a year battling prostate cancer, which is a killer, both literally and figuratively, not to mention having to deal with the behind-the-back misinformation to potential recruits that he'd never come back. I don't agree with all the choices he's made, but I'm willing to cut him some slack because they were made with the best interests of the program in mind. Of that I have no doubt.