Lavin The Genius

[logen]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I know more facts than you think. And being chippy in games is nothing compared to Harrison. You are groping at straws to knock Lavin and that is fine. Pointer walks a fine line and he stepped over it against ND and should pay for his actions. Harrison has stepped over the line repeatedly, albeit a different line. But make no mistake, he walked over it repeatedly and with whomever he chose.

Pointer slapped a guy in the head then punched another player-- you don't think that warrants Lav to suspend him outside of the 1 game ban from the NCAA?

What I am not going to do is discuss the suspensions as if they are somehow related. Harrison asked for and got what he deserved and no amount of points lost or games lost is going to make me feel differently. You guys can defend Harrison until the cows come home but he was wrong, the behavior was habitual and the punishment fit the crime(s). As for Pointer, taken out of context, I think the one game is fair and sufficient. If Pointer has some kind of history, fighting in practice, etc. maybe I feel differently. Personally, I would not have a problem with Lavin being suspended for a game because I thought Pointer clearly should not have been in the game. After the first incident I thought he should have been on the bench for the duration. If both incidents involved the same ND player I would say the same thing for Brey.

I like Dom and don't want him suspended anymore than I want Harrison suspended. With that being said if you haven't noticed that Pointer is chippy and almost gets into something every game, than you are not watching or you are just seeing what you want to see. If Lavin felt he had to suspend Harrison that is his right. My problem is with posters such as yourself condemning Harrison w/o any real facts yet defending the player you like better for doing something worse than anything we have sen Harrison do.

 

[logen]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I know more facts than you think. And being chippy in games is nothing compared to Harrison. You are groping at straws to knock Lavin and that is fine. Pointer walks a fine line and he stepped over it against ND and should pay for his actions. Harrison has stepped over the line repeatedly, albeit a different line. But make no mistake, he walked over it repeatedly and with whomever he chose.

Pointer slapped a guy in the head then punched another player-- you don't think that warrants Lav to suspend him outside of the 1 game ban from the NCAA?

What I am not going to do is discuss the suspensions as if they are somehow related. Harrison asked for and got what he deserved and no amount of points lost or games lost is going to make me feel differently. You guys can defend Harrison until the cows come home but he was wrong, the behavior was habitual and the punishment fit the crime(s). As for Pointer, taken out of context, I think the one game is fair and sufficient. If Pointer has some kind of history, fighting in practice, etc. maybe I feel differently. Personally, I would not have a problem with Lavin being suspended for a game because I thought Pointer clearly should not have been in the game. After the first incident I thought he should have been on the bench for the duration. If both incidents involved the same ND player I would say the same thing for Brey.

I like Dom and don't want him suspended anymore than I want Harrison suspended. With that being said if you haven't noticed that Pointer is chippy and almost gets into something every game, than you are not watching or you are just seeing what you want to see. If Lavin felt he had to suspend Harrison that is his right. My problem is with posters such as yourself condemning Harrison w/o any real facts yet defending the player you like better for doing something worse than anything we have sen Harrison do.

Sorry, I got caught in the Quote maze!!

I know more facts than you think. And being chippy in games is nothing compared to Harrison. You are groping at straws to knock Lavin and that is fine. Pointer walks a fine line and he stepped over it against ND and should pay for his actions. Harrison has stepped over the line repeatedly, albeit a different line. But make no mistake, he walked over it repeatedly and with whomever he chose.

 

[fuchsia]

you have to build a game plan around the type of players you have. We are very athletic but a poor shooting team. Yet it appears we run the same plays as if we are a good shooting team. We must play to our stremgths until we get shooters. Lav is a great recruiter and represents us very well. He needs a great Xs and Os guy to build a better and smarter game plan.

Most coaches do it the other way around; they have a system they are comfortable with, and recruit players that fit into that system. And that system was often taught to them by their mentor. The plan here was to have an athletic bunch that would outrun the defense. The problem is they can't run because they can't rebound and don't create turnovers. That indicates a lack of both fundamentals and basketball instincts. Their inability to attack the zone is due to the lack of an inside presence that can score, and the lack of a penetrating PG. In other words, no players that can make things happen. On paper, things looked better. Norvel Pelle would have been the inside presence and rebounder. Harkless would have stayed two years,which, even without Pelle, would have changed the dynamic in a big way. Harrison would not have gone south in year two. What's left is a great team for a dunk contest and a track meet, but not for a basketball game. I do not think Lavin is the problem as far as game coaching. He just needs better players. In the end, good players win games and make the coaches look smarter than they are.

No catch and go up through contact in the lane scorer (Sanchez), Branch looks less explosive post-injury, minimal time if any of Branch feeding Marco and DLO on the floor at the same time. It just never came together. Boy do we need a gym rat CYO point guard to orchestrate all these combos. Going back to UCLA Lavin's teams always seemed less than than the sum of their parts to me, BUT I am way biased against teams that overpower vs. teams that out structure and out smart their opponents.

 

[SJUalum98]

you have to build a game plan around the type of players you have. We are very athletic but a poor shooting team. Yet it appears we run the same plays as if we are a good shooting team. We must play to our stremgths until we get shooters. Lav is a great recruiter and represents us very well. He needs a great Xs and Os guy to build a better and smarter game plan.

Most coaches do it the other way around; they have a system they are comfortable with, and recruit players that fit into that system. And that system was often taught to them by their mentor. The plan here was to have an athletic bunch that would outrun the defense. The problem is they can't run because they can't rebound and don't create turnovers. That indicates a lack of both fundamentals and basketball instincts. Their inability to attack the zone is due to the lack of an inside presence that can score, and the lack of a penetrating PG. In other words, no players that can make things happen. On paper, things looked better. Norvel Pelle would have been the inside presence and rebounder. Harkless would have stayed two years,which, even without Pelle, would have changed the dynamic in a big way. Harrison would not have gone south in year two. What's left is a great team for a dunk contest and a track meet, but not for a basketball game. I do not think Lavin is the problem as far as game coaching. He just needs better players. In the end, good players win games and make the coaches look smarter than they are.

Ever watched Lavin on the sidelines when we are on offense?

He stands there with his arms folded. His only motion is swinging his arms to run the weave.

You can sit here and say every coach in the country needs better players. All that does is take Lavin off the hook. He recruited these players. He needs to be held accountable.

We're heavily recruiting Carrington for 2014. Ever see him play? 6'2 "combo guard". Jordan? Combo guard.

How about a natural PG for once. A kid who puts his head down and gets into the lane and can dish. I'd trade D'Angelo Harrison for Malik Boothe in a second. Jakarr and Obekpa would get 2-3 more easy buckets a game and Marco could just stand in the corner and catch & shoot.

So IMO it's not about better players per se. It's about the type of players that Lavin is infatuated with.

 

[ccnobz]

you have to build a game plan around the type of players you have. We are very athletic but a poor shooting team. Yet it appears we run the same plays as if we are a good shooting team. We must play to our stremgths until we get shooters. Lav is a great recruiter and represents us very well. He needs a great Xs and Os guy to build a better and smarter game plan.

Most coaches do it the other way around; they have a system they are comfortable with, and recruit players that fit into that system. And that system was often taught to them by their mentor. The plan here was to have an athletic bunch that would outrun the defense. The problem is they can't run because they can't rebound and don't create turnovers. That indicates a lack of both fundamentals and basketball instincts. Their inability to attack the zone is due to the lack of an inside presence that can score, and the lack of a penetrating PG. In other words, no players that can make things happen. On paper, things looked better. Norvel Pelle would have been the inside presence and rebounder. Harkless would have stayed two years,which, even without Pelle, would have changed the dynamic in a big way. Harrison would not have gone south in year two. What's left is a great team for a dunk contest and a track meet, but not for a basketball game. I do not think Lavin is the problem as far as game coaching. He just needs better players. In the end, good players win games and make the coaches look smarter than they are.

Ever watched Lavin on the sidelines when we are on offense?

He stands there with his arms folded. His only motion is swinging his arms to run the weave.

You can sit here and say every coach in the country needs better players. All that does is take Lavin off the hook. He recruited these players. He needs to be held accountable.

We're heavily recruiting Carrington for 2014. Ever see him play? 6'2 "combo guard". Jordan? Combo guard.

How about a natural PG for once. A kid who puts his head down and gets into the lane and can dish. I'd trade D'Angelo Harrison for Malik Boothe in a second. Jakarr and Obekpa would get 2-3 more easy buckets a game and Marco could just stand in the corner and catch & shoot.

So IMO it's not about better players per se. It's about the type of players that Lavin is infatuated with.

Harrison for Boothe? You better throw in a few drafts picks, are you nuts?

 

[kranmars]

you have to build a game plan around the type of players you have. We are very athletic but a poor shooting team. Yet it appears we run the same plays as if we are a good shooting team. We must play to our stremgths until we get shooters. Lav is a great recruiter and represents us very well. He needs a great Xs and Os guy to build a better and smarter game plan.

Most coaches do it the other way around; they have a system they are comfortable with, and recruit players that fit into that system. And that system was often taught to them by their mentor. The plan here was to have an athletic bunch that would outrun the defense. The problem is they can't run because they can't rebound and don't create turnovers. That indicates a lack of both fundamentals and basketball instincts. Their inability to attack the zone is due to the lack of an inside presence that can score, and the lack of a penetrating PG. In other words, no players that can make things happen. On paper, things looked better. Norvel Pelle would have been the inside presence and rebounder. Harkless would have stayed two years,which, even without Pelle, would have changed the dynamic in a big way. Harrison would not have gone south in year two. What's left is a great team for a dunk contest and a track meet, but not for a basketball game. I do not think Lavin is the problem as far as game coaching. He just needs better players. In the end, good players win games and make the coaches look smarter than they are.

Ever watched Lavin on the sidelines when we are on offense?

He stands there with his arms folded. His only motion is swinging his arms to run the weave.

You can sit here and say every coach in the country needs better players. All that does is take Lavin off the hook. He recruited these players. He needs to be held accountable.

We're heavily recruiting Carrington for 2014. Ever see him play? 6'2 "combo guard". Jordan? Combo guard.

How about a natural PG for once. A kid who puts his head down and gets into the lane and can dish. I'd trade D'Angelo Harrison for Malik Boothe in a second. Jakarr and Obekpa would get 2-3 more easy buckets a game and Marco could just stand in the corner and catch & shoot.

So IMO it's not about better players per se. It's about the type of players that Lavin is infatuated with.

I agree with a lot of what you posted SJUalum98, except for these two points:

1. Just because a coach (in this case Lavin) has his hands folded does not mean much. Jarvis and Robertts were pretty emotional and we know how that worked out. Heck, who is a more emotional coach than Mike Rice, and he is an abomination.

2. A true PG is great, but there aren't many of them. The majority of PG's are combo guards.

 

[SJU1512]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

 

[MJDinkins]

2. A true PG is great, but there aren't many of them. The majority of PG's are combo guards.

Agree.... I've never seen Carrington play, but I've seen Jordan play, and he's capable of "running the show."

 

[beast of the east]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

 

[Moose]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Stats are great.
Like Harrison's 18ppg

 

[beast of the east]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Stats are great.
Like Harrison's 18ppg

You should be in his posse by now.

 

[we are sju]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Stats are great.
Like Harrison's 18ppg

"Stats are like a woman in a bikini, they show a lot but not everything."-Ralph Kiner

 

[Moose]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Stats are great.
Like Harrison's 18ppg

"Stats are like a woman in a bikini, they show a lot but not everything."-Ralph Kiner

Quoting Ralph Kiner is nothing to brag about

They show enough

 

[we are sju]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Stats are great.
Like Harrison's 18ppg

"Stats are like a woman in a bikini, they show a lot but not everything."-Ralph Kiner

Quoting Ralph Kiner is nothing to brag about

They show enough

See we had a nice run there for awhile. I rescued you from the cult of Lavin and we are both on the same page re Harrison and Greene. But now you go and insult Ralph Kiner. Kiner was awesome and anybody who roots for a team that has employed John Sterling , Suzyn Waldman, Mike Kay and Phil Rizzuto should never insult another team's announcer!

 

[Moose]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Stats are great.
Like Harrison's 18ppg

"Stats are like a woman in a bikini, they show a lot but not everything."-Ralph Kiner

Quoting Ralph Kiner is nothing to brag about

They show enough

See we had a nice run there for awhile. I rescued you from the cult of Lavin and we are both on the same page re Harrison and Greene. But now you go and insult Ralph Kiner. Kiner was awesome and anybody who roots for a team that has employed John Sterling , Suzyn Waldman, Mike Kay and Phil Rizzuto should never insult another team's announcer!

Never did I defend those other announcers. All announcers are schills. Some worse than others

But thank you for rescuing me from the clutches of the cult.

 

[SJU1512]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Agree that stats don't tell the whole picture, and agree that we played well under difficult circumstances, and hard/good enough to win. If we left it at that there is little question it's fair.

It's when we try to draw conclusions as to the cause for us playing that way (Harrison's absence) that I think it gets really murky really fast, which is why I pointed out the stats (because they are jarringly bad). We played well, but not well enough to reach that threshold in my opinion. We've played better than that with Harrison, and we've also played worse than that with Harrison.

I was really proud of the effort, but it's not like we saw a brand new team that went out and beat Georgetown. As I mentioned I thought there were definitely some added team intangibles, which is important. Otherwise I pretty much saw the same strong play from Sampson/Pointer/Obekpa and the same shaky play from everybody else, specifically the guards on both ends of the floor (24% shooting for our four, 34 points for Cotton/Council alone) which, in addition to Providence's offensive rebounding, is where we lost the game. We followed that up with the absolute worst (and probably only embarassing) game of the season at ND.

My point being I see them as separate issues. The coaching staff felt he needed to be suspended so he was. I just don't think we've seen much in the balance of the two games since the suspension to indicate we're better without him.

 

[L J S A]

"Stats are like a woman in a bikini, they show a lot but not everything."-Ralph Kiner

Quoting Ralph Kiner is nothing to brag about

They show enough

Sometimes they show too much.

 

[simplyred]

"Stats are like a woman in a bikini, they show a lot but not everything."-Ralph Kiner

Quoting Ralph Kiner is nothing to brag about

They show enough

Sometimes they show too much.

Unless it's my daughter wearing it, they never show too much!

 

[beast of the east]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Agree that stats don't tell the whole picture, and agree that we played well under difficult circumstances, and hard/good enough to win. If we left it at that there is little question it's fair.

It's when we try to draw conclusions as to the cause for us playing that way (Harrison's absence) that I think it gets really murky really fast, which is why I pointed out the stats (because they are jarringly bad). We played well, but not well enough to reach that threshold in my opinion. We've played better than that with Harrison, and we've also played worse than that with Harrison.

I was really proud of the effort, but it's not like we saw a brand new team that went out and beat Georgetown. As I mentioned I thought there were definitely some added team intangibles, which is important. Otherwise I pretty much saw the same strong play from Sampson/Pointer/Obekpa and the same shaky play from everybody else, specifically the guards on both ends of the floor (24% shooting for our four, 34 points for Cotton/Council alone) which, in addition to Providence's offensive rebounding, is where we lost the game. We followed that up with the absolute worst (and probably only embarassing) game of the season at ND.

My point being I see them as separate issues. The coaching staff felt he needed to be suspended so he was. I just don't think we've seen much in the balance of the two games since the suspension to indicate we're better without him.

Don't extrapolate my post to say something I am not saying. I do think we played our best game in a month or more. I missed the UCONN game so I can't say how we played in that game. I am a fan of Harrison's raw ability, and think he possesses all the tools to be a top D1 guard. He has very good court vision as well, and while I've been very critical of his play even before the collapse, I do think he could be special if he harnesses his talent.

What I have said is that based on his shot selection, lack of movement, etc, I think the team played better in PRovidence. The ball moved, there were 2nd and third passes even when someone had an open look - very selfless play, team ball. That doesn't mean the team is somehow better. In reality it isn't even so much in the starting team, but the bench is one player shorter in terms of quality coming off the bench. I would rather watch the PRovidence game over and over than a repeat of most of this season, that's all.

 

[logen]

For an entire season for having an attitude? Never seen it. Lav hurt the entire team. And then it is on Lavin for not taking care of it earlier and yes I did notice him not starting an exhibition game and being pulled for 5 minutes in the Uconn game. I have been to 90% of every home game since 1970's . Seen just about every game this team has played. Threw away the whole seaon (which may not amounted to much but still). All at the expense of the players and and fans.

And yes Dom should not have thrown a punch but my point was he was not hit first. The frustration that built up was because we were undermaned and if handled correctly it could have been avoided. The ND kid hit Dom first if you saw the replay. He was prob on his way to being taken out. ND had their starters in right to that point running up the score and trying to emabarass SJU

Since when is 4 games an entire season? Regardless, I will criticize Lavin for what I think he is doing wrong but suspending Harrison is not one of them. And to think Harrison's presence would have changed either of the games against Providence or ND is wishful thinking at best. Bottom line the suspension was well earned and overdue IMO.

I understand Lavins suspension of DLo but to say he wouldn't have made a change in the games is ridiculous. If anyone on this team can make points happen its DLo. I don't think it would have mattered against what happened in the second half against ND but he would have been driving on the zone and at least opening things up - which would have gotten the anti-DLo crowd riled up when it should have been the "Hey Lavin why can't we flash some screens and blocks for our 3 point threats" crowd. Against Providence - we lose by 3 and you think not having the teams leading scorer missing had no effect???? I can understand supporting Lavin's decision but using "he wasn't missed in a 3 point loss" to support the descision doesn't really work. Providence would have been a win IMHO and would have driven home the point about how his leadership and ability were missed and he could have been there if he was making good choices.

IMO we played a game against Providence we would not have played had Harrison been there; we shared the ball, we offensive rebounded, we had some ryhtym, we played like a team. Certainly you can disagree and the losing your top scorer argument is usually a valid one so we have to agree to disagree. Of course your whole premise and the crux of the argument is summed up in your last caveat "if he was making good choices." To me Harrison never was anything resembling a leader and there is no reason to think he would have done a 180 and made good choices against Providence. As for my opinion being ridiculous I would ask this; did you ever see SJU play stylewise the way they did against Providence with Harrison on the court? As I have said before, I think you guys seriously overestimate him as a player.

I don't disagree that there was a sense of cohesiveness and togetherness in the Providence game that we had not been seeing recently. It did seem like they wanted to rally and played very hard. But the way we played in that game is otherwise being severely overrated.

In terms of sharing the ball, we had 13 assists. 146 teams in America average more APG than that. Nothing special. In terms of offensive rebounding, we had 9; Providence had 15. Not sure how that relates to Harrison anyway but either way it was Providence's offensive rebounding that was a story in that game. As a team we shot 37% from the field, 10% from 3, and 57% from the line. The four guards who appeared in the game for us combined to go 7-29 with 16 points, 6 assists, and 6 rebounds. The team stats are not out of line with anything we ever did with Harrison, and frankly what Branch/Greene/Bourgault/Balamou gave us combined is something Harrison routinely gave us on his own.

We otherwise lost the game to a middling Big East team, and followed it up with a game that was probably the single worst of the last two years. I'm not debating the merits of the Harrison suspension; that's a separate issue. I'm just saying that outside of some intangibles in the Providence game - which, as I said, is not unimportant - the way this team has played without him cannot be represented as some sort of improvement on the court.

I am a big fan of stats. As a kid I memoriazed just about every statistic, year-by-year and career for every baseball card I owned. Stats do mean something, but they don't always tell the whole story. I go to most every hoem game, but do miss a fair amount of TV games. I watched the entire Providence game end to end, and SJU was playing a team that was red hot in the last month, and had 5 of 6 Big East games. Providence didn't roll over, and played really well in the second half. We didn't cave in, and instead played very well on our own, sub par shooting and all. In some key stats (off rebounds) Providence was just stronger inside, but again, I thought we played very well, and good enough to win.

Agree that stats don't tell the whole picture, and agree that we played well under difficult circumstances, and hard/good enough to win. If we left it at that there is little question it's fair.

It's when we try to draw conclusions as to the cause for us playing that way (Harrison's absence) that I think it gets really murky really fast, which is why I pointed out the stats (because they are jarringly bad). We played well, but not well enough to reach that threshold in my opinion. We've played better than that with Harrison, and we've also played worse than that with Harrison.

I was really proud of the effort, but it's not like we saw a brand new team that went out and beat Georgetown. As I mentioned I thought there were definitely some added team intangibles, which is important. Otherwise I pretty much saw the same strong play from Sampson/Pointer/Obekpa and the same shaky play from everybody else, specifically the guards on both ends of the floor (24% shooting for our four, 34 points for Cotton/Council alone) which, in addition to Providence's offensive rebounding, is where we lost the game. We followed that up with the absolute worst (and probably only embarassing) game of the season at ND.

My point being I see them as separate issues. The coaching staff felt he needed to be suspended so he was. I just don't think we've seen much in the balance of the two games since the suspension to indicate we're better without him.

In no way did I mean to insinuate the reason we played with more cohesiveness against Providence was BECAUSE Harrison wasn't there, just that one cannot assume we would have played that way with Harrison and won because obviously having Harrison imoroves our talent level. Just as obviously, the cohesiveness was an abberation because we reverted back against ND. Also we looked better against Providence but in a baby steps kind of way, not that Providence was anything resembling a great or even good game. We just looked better, potentially something to build on. Did not happen short term.