July Evaluation Periods

[quote="Logen" post=291109][quote="NCJohnnie" post=291107]Understood Redmannorth. Not panicking and as I said still encouraged. The Lavin reference was more to show evidence that it is still possible to recruit top talent to SJU. As for playing time in 2019, at least three of our top players in 2018 (assuming MH plays) will be gone and there will be ample playing time for four plus star talent.[/quote]

In fairness, anyone who reads this board knows I have little respect for Steve Lavin so take my comment with however much salt you think appropriate; that “top talent” recruited in his first year translated to exactly one NCAA tournament appearance. So rankings are great for fans to keep score but results are what matter. So Mullin enters into the phase of his time at SJU where he needs results on the court. I don’t care if he does it with transfers, 4 year high schoolers who develop over time, I don’t care if he does it with foreign players, I don’t care where he gets his players as long at it is above board and we win. Outside of Harrison and Green and to a lesser extent Pointer, who of Lavin’s “monster” class advanced us as a program? Harkless made a great decision and no one can blame him a bit. Sampson wound up playing for himself, Obepka a disaster. The next year Jordan, who was a walking nightmare to the program. So “on paper” discussions of recruiting are great but results are all that matter. So we shall see, even without Heron, we should see marked improvement this year. With him, it is certainly NCAA or bust. And I believe we will have him.[/quote]

Most of your questions are very fair. The fact that you don't think you can level the same questions at the present staff is what I find perplexing. Don't forget from the start from scratch point Lavin went losing record, NIT, NIT, NCAA. From a very similar starting from scratch point, albeit maybe with a 1 year lag, the present staff has gone losing record, losing record, losing record. Now thanks to their only big time HS recruit they look like they can be pretty good this year, but if Ponds and Heron leave as expected there's really no high level talent that could be expected to maintain the momentum and high results in pursuant years. So we can trash all of Lavin's top 100 recruits if we want, at least he got some.
 
[quote="austour" post=291211][quote="Logen" post=291109][quote="NCJohnnie" post=291107]Understood Redmannorth. Not panicking and as I said still encouraged. The Lavin reference was more to show evidence that it is still possible to recruit top talent to SJU. As for playing time in 2019, at least three of our top players in 2018 (assuming MH plays) will be gone and there will be ample playing time for four plus star talent.[/quote]

In fairness, anyone who reads this board knows I have little respect for Steve Lavin so take my comment with however much salt you think appropriate; that “top talent” recruited in his first year translated to exactly one NCAA tournament appearance. So rankings are great for fans to keep score but results are what matter. So Mullin enters into the phase of his time at SJU where he needs results on the court. I don’t care if he does it with transfers, 4 year high schoolers who develop over time, I don’t care if he does it with foreign players, I don’t care where he gets his players as long at it is above board and we win. Outside of Harrison and Green and to a lesser extent Pointer, who of Lavin’s “monster” class advanced us as a program? Harkless made a great decision and no one can blame him a bit. Sampson wound up playing for himself, Obepka a disaster. The next year Jordan, who was a walking nightmare to the program. So “on paper” discussions of recruiting are great but results are all that matter. So we shall see, even without Heron, we should see marked improvement this year. With him, it is certainly NCAA or bust. And I believe we will have him.[/quote]

Most of your questions are very fair. The fact that you don't think you can level the same questions at the present staff is what I find perplexing. Don't forget from the start from scratch point Lavin went losing record, NIT, NIT, NCAA. From a very similar starting from scratch point, albeit maybe with a 1 year lag, the present staff has gone losing record, losing record, losing record. Now thanks to their only big time HS recruit they look like they can be pretty good this year, but if Ponds and Heron leave as expected there's really no high level talent that could be expected to maintain the momentum and high results in pursuant years. So we can trash all of Lavin's top 100 recruits if we want, at least he got some.[/quote]

The staff dodged a career killing bullet with Ponds staying and Mustapha coming. Absent those two this could have been another possible losing season. Assuming the new talent gels that should not be the case but we have been after a lot of local talent that can sustain success. Should they all go elsewhere it would be a severe blow to local recruiting and the reputation of the staff. The B.S. with Mitch, Slice, and Rice has to end. As you intimated one good year will not do much for Chris Mullin without a reloading of talent that would move the program to the top 5 rather than the bottom 5.
There is too much money at stake, both in salaries and revenue to continue on the current path.
 
“The B.S. with Mitch, Slice, and Rice has to end”

2/3 of that will very soon is my sense
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=291214][quote="austour" post=291211][quote="Logen" post=291109][quote="NCJohnnie" post=291107]Understood Redmannorth. Not panicking and as I said still encouraged. The Lavin reference was more to show evidence that it is still possible to recruit top talent to SJU. As for playing time in 2019, at least three of our top players in 2018 (assuming MH plays) will be gone and there will be ample playing time for four plus star talent.[/quote]

In fairness, anyone who reads this board knows I have little respect for Steve Lavin so take my comment with however much salt you think appropriate; that “top talent” recruited in his first year translated to exactly one NCAA tournament appearance. So rankings are great for fans to keep score but results are what matter. So Mullin enters into the phase of his time at SJU where he needs results on the court. I don’t care if he does it with transfers, 4 year high schoolers who develop over time, I don’t care if he does it with foreign players, I don’t care where he gets his players as long at it is above board and we win. Outside of Harrison and Green and to a lesser extent Pointer, who of Lavin’s “monster” class advanced us as a program? Harkless made a great decision and no one can blame him a bit. Sampson wound up playing for himself, Obepka a disaster. The next year Jordan, who was a walking nightmare to the program. So “on paper” discussions of recruiting are great but results are all that matter. So we shall see, even without Heron, we should see marked improvement this year. With him, it is certainly NCAA or bust. And I believe we will have him.[/quote]

Most of your questions are very fair. The fact that you don't think you can level the same questions at the present staff is what I find perplexing. Don't forget from the start from scratch point Lavin went losing record, NIT, NIT, NCAA. From a very similar starting from scratch point, albeit maybe with a 1 year lag, the present staff has gone losing record, losing record, losing record. Now thanks to their only big time HS recruit they look like they can be pretty good this year, but if Ponds and Heron leave as expected there's really no high level talent that could be expected to maintain the momentum and high results in pursuant years. So we can trash all of Lavin's top 100 recruits if we want, at least he got some.[/quote]

The staff dodged a career killing bullet with Ponds staying and Mustapha coming. Absent those two this could have been another possible losing season. Assuming the new talent gels that should not be the case but we have been after a lot of local talent that can sustain success. Should they all go elsewhere it would be a severe blow to local recruiting and the reputation of the staff. The B.S. with Mitch, Slice, and Rice has to end. As you intimated one good year will not do much for Chris Mullin without a reloading of talent that would move the program to the top 5 rather than the bottom 5.
There is too much money at stake, both in salaries and revenue to continue on the current path.[/quote]



I too, would like for us to land a high profile recruit. However, I think that some on here are selling some of our present players short. Greg Williams is a talent who will have a year to adjust to college without a lot of pressure. Mikey Dixon can play, hopefully his adjustment to the Big East goes smoothly. If two of three bigs, Keita, Ellington, and Roberts play well, we are set for at least two years. LJ Figueroa is a player, who will help us immediately. Eli Wright and Caraher have a year to work on their games. The key is whaat will Justin Simon do. If he comes back for one more year, we will definitely remain competitive.

I am just going to relax and continue to say the "Serenity Prayer".
 
In my spare time I keep track of the talent on the roster. Below is where I have the players listed based on the majority of recruiting services.

Herron - 5 star
Ponds - 4 star
Simon - 4 star
Keita - 4 star
Williams - 4 star
LJ - 4 star
Clark - 3 star
Trimble - 3 star
Roberts - 3 star
Earlington - 2 star
Dixon - 2 star

Sit out transfers

Wright - 4 star
Caraher - 2 star

Under the assumption that Herron is eligible we will have six players who were rated 4 star or above next season. That said it is frustrating that Ponds is the only star recruit going into year 4 that we signed out of high school. It would be nice to sign some 4 star high school recruits soon. Hopefully we can win this year and things start to turn our way.
 
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[quote="austour" post=291211][
From a very similar starting from scratch point, albeit maybe with a 1 year lag, the present staff has gone losing record, losing record, losing record. [/quote]

Not even close. Mullin inherited complete bupkis. Lavin inheried a loaded team. Balanced and experienced. Momentum was there and it was something to build on. Mullin had Chernobyl. The momentum was polar opposite. This season will be the first time Mullin has anything like what Lavin had his first season. Even so that first year of Lavin the team was still more experienced and balanced with some great players in their senior season.
 
With Greg Williams as a 4 star, that makes 2 on the squad signed out of high school. Having said that agree it would be nice to depend a bit less on transfers going forward
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=291222][quote="austour" post=291211][
From a very similar starting from scratch point, albeit maybe with a 1 year lag, the present staff has gone losing record, losing record, losing record. [/quote]

Not even close. Mullin inherited complete bupkis. Lavin inheried a loaded team. Balanced and experienced. Momentum was there and it was something to build on. Mullin had Chernobyl. The momentum was polar opposite. This season will be the first time Mullin has anything like what Lavin had his first season. Even so that first year of Lavin the team was still more experienced and balanced with some great players in their senior season.[/quote]

I did not say similar starting point, I said similar starting from scratch point. Year 2 for Lavin.

That's also why I mentioned the one year lag. Lavin had 1 player return for his second year yet by his third had a winning record again. Mullin had more returning his first year but less recruiting time. That said three years in we're still waiting for a winning record.
 
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I'd consider Williams a 3 star since he's ranked as a 3 star and #155 overall on 247 Composite. Sure, he's extremely close to the 4 star ranking and some services have him as a 4 star, but there's a big difference between a 4 star like Ponds ranked in the 40s and Williams ranked in the 150s.

A player like Ponds I expect to contribute year 1 (which he did), while Williams I don't expect to do much his Freshman year.

I absolutely think the staff needs to improve their high school recruiting, but I won't complain much when they're bringing in transfers like Simon, Clark and Heron. :)
 
[quote="austour" post=291227]
I did not say similar starting point, I said similar starting from scratch point. Year 2 for Lavin.

That's also why I mentioned the one year lag. Lavin had 1 player return for his second year yet by his third had a winning record again. Mullin had more returning his first year but less recruiting time. That said three years in we're still waiting for a winning record.[/quote]

nonsensical quibbling. There is no comparison even with the one year lag bs. If you want to compare the results of this season to Lavin's first season that is a similar though still advantage Lavin, starting point and Mullin deserves extra credit for getting us here under way more difficult circumstances. that is accurate. Mahoney, Fraschilla, Jarvis, Lavin, Roberts all inherited good to great teams. Mullin not only inherited zero players but also a very disenfranchised recruiting base. That is not Lavin bashing or Mullin blind love, That is accurate.
 
[quote="Andrew" post=291221]In my spare time I keep track of the talent on the roster. Below is where I have the players listed based on the majority of recruiting services.

Herron - 5 star
Ponds - 4 star
Simon - 4 star
Keita - 4 star
Williams - 4 star
LJ - 4 star
Clark - 3 star
Trimble - 3 star
Roberts - 3 star
Earlington - 2 star
Dixon - 2 star

Sit out transfers

Wright - 4 star
Caraher - 2 star

Under the assumption that Herron is eligible we will have six players who were rated 4 star or above next season. That said it is frustrating that Ponds is the only star recruit going into year 4 that we signed out of high school. It would be nice to sign some 4 star high school recruits soon. Hopefully we can win this year and things start to turn our way.[/quote]

In my opinion, those rankings should be thrown out the window once kids have played in college. I think our starting lineup next season has three five-star players and two four stars.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=291231][quote="austour" post=291227]
I did not say similar starting point, I said similar starting from scratch point. Year 2 for Lavin.

That's also why I mentioned the one year lag. Lavin had 1 player return for his second year yet by his third had a winning record again. Mullin had more returning his first year but less recruiting time. That said three years in we're still waiting for a winning record.[/quote]

nonsensical quibbling. There is no comparison even with the one year lag bs. If you want to compare the results of this season to Lavin's first season that is a similar though still advantage Lavin, starting point and Mullin deserves extra credit for getting us here under way more difficult circumstances. that is accurate. Mahoney, Fraschilla, Jarvis, Lavin, Roberts all inherited good to great teams. Mullin not only inherited zero players but also a very disenfranchised recruiting base. That is not Lavin bashing or Mullin blind love, That is accurate.[/quote]

We have been spinning our wheels for a few years now regarding the state and future of the program. In Mullin's 4th year it is senseless to continue to fault any particular coach any longer. What is accurate is that other than DePaul we have been the least stable program in the Big East for 22 years now. That says a lot about the administrative capabilities of both schools in the management of their only revenue generating sport.
WhIle other major programs have had dedicated long term staff to recruit talent over those 22 years, as you noted with the names Mahoney, Fraschilla, Jarvis, Lavin, Roberts and now Mullin, we have had a carousel of coaches, almost all of whom were a risk at some level or other. In comparison to Butler, Xavier or Providence we have been a mediocre disaster.
While I agree with Sterling about the quantity of talent finally in the program, it will have to gel and gel quickly for the level of success at the three schools I mentioned.
Staff stability has been THE MAJOR issue over the years. This staff has been no different with the Mitch and Slice pony show. I'm hoping all that changes this season on many levels.
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=291226]With Greg Williams as a 4 star, that makes 2 on the squad signed out of high school. Having said that agree it would be nice to depend a bit less on transfers going forward[/quote]

I could care less where we get players from, high school, jc, Canada :) or transfers. As long as we win and improve, I will be satisfied. We never have , nor will we ever be , a top destination for high school recruits. The reasons have been repeated ad nauseum on this board and I will not regurgitate same again.
While we may not have gotten the level of high school player we would like the staff has exceed our expectations with transfers, Owens, Simon and Clark and now we add Dixon and Keita and next season Wright and David C. In addition they recruited two JC AAs in Bashir and Figueroa.
Hopefully with a change in staff and all hands on deck we will be more present at high school events going forward and will be able to snag a high level high school recruit or two.
 
[quote="redmannorth" post=291242][quote="NCJohnnie" post=291226]With Greg Williams as a 4 star, that makes 2 on the squad signed out of high school. Having said that agree it would be nice to depend a bit less on transfers going forward[/quote]

We never have , nor will we ever be , a top destination for high school recruits. [/quote]

Not true. We may have not be a destination ala the blue bloods, but we've actually been a destination and have had lots of dogs in the fight for those type of players.

I can't even definitively say, we won't "ever be" a destination for 5-star players. Is it likely we're a consistent destination? Probably not. But you also never know. I'm sure UConn fans probably once thought the same prior to the Jim Calhoun era.
 
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[quote="MJDinkins" post=291244][quote="redmannorth" post=291242][quote="NCJohnnie" post=291226]With Greg Williams as a 4 star, that makes 2 on the squad signed out of high school. Having said that agree it would be nice to depend a bit less on transfers going forward[/quote]

We never have , nor will we ever be , a top destination for high school recruits. [/quote]

Not true. We may have not be a destination ala the blue bloods, but we've actually been a destination and have had lots of dogs in the fight for those type of players.

I can't even definitively say, we won't "ever be" a destination for 5-star players. Is it likely? Probably not. But you also never know. I'm sure UConn fans probably once thought the same prior to the Jim Calhoun era.[/quote]

I Saïd top destination , not destination. Of course we are a destination but I stand by what I said that we will never be a top destination, like the blue bloods as you referenced.
And UConn was not a destination for MCAAS under coach Calhoun. Check how many he signed over a 25 odd year runand 3 national titles. Not too many. He won with 3 and 4 star players whom he coached up over 3 and 4 years and the occasional 5 star. That is why I refer to him as the greatest coach of his time frame as won with less than UNC, Duke ,Kentucky etc.
 
[quote="L J S A" post=291234][quote="Andrew" post=291221]In my spare time I keep track of the talent on the roster. Below is where I have the players listed based on the majority of recruiting services.

Herron - 5 star
Ponds - 4 star
Simon - 4 star
Keita - 4 star
Williams - 4 star
LJ - 4 star
Clark - 3 star
Trimble - 3 star
Roberts - 3 star
Earlington - 2 star
Dixon - 2 star

Sit out transfers

Wright - 4 star
Caraher - 2 star

Under the assumption that Herron is eligible we will have six players who were rated 4 star or above next season. That said it is frustrating that Ponds is the only star recruit going into year 4 that we signed out of high school. It would be nice to sign some 4 star high school recruits soon. Hopefully we can win this year and things start to turn our way.[/quote]

In my opinion, those rankings should be thrown out the window once kids have played in college. I think our starting lineup next season has three five-star players and two four stars.[/quote]

A four star talent should be better as a junior then as a freshman which I think is your point.
 
[quote="L J S A" post=291234][quote="Andrew" post=291221]In my spare time I keep track of the talent on the roster. Below is where I have the players listed based on the majority of recruiting services.

Herron - 5 star
Ponds - 4 star
Simon - 4 star
Keita - 4 star
Williams - 4 star
LJ - 4 star
Clark - 3 star
Trimble - 3 star
Roberts - 3 star
Earlington - 2 star
Dixon - 2 star

Sit out transfers

Wright - 4 star
Caraher - 2 star

Under the assumption that Herron is eligible we will have six players who were rated 4 star or above next season. That said it is frustrating that Ponds is the only star recruit going into year 4 that we signed out of high school. It would be nice to sign some 4 star high school recruits soon. Hopefully we can win this year and things start to turn our way.[/quote]

In my opinion, those rankings should be thrown out the window once kids have played in college. I think our starting lineup next season has three five-star players and two four stars.[/quote]


Luv your pic, LJSA. You know 'something'?!?
 
[quote="Chicago Days" post=291247]


Luv your pic, LJSA. You know 'something'?!?[/quote]

Only what Paultz tells me, which is why I also stole the pic from him. :lol: My prediction was way off, so it was as good a time as any to replace the Nash pic.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=291239][quote="Paul Massell" post=291231][quote="austour" post=291227]
I did not say similar starting point, I said similar starting from scratch point. Year 2 for Lavin.

That's also why I mentioned the one year lag. Lavin had 1 player return for his second year yet by his third had a winning record again. Mullin had more returning his first year but less recruiting time. That said three years in we're still waiting for a winning record.[/quote]

nonsensical quibbling. There is no comparison even with the one year lag bs. If you want to compare the results of this season to Lavin's first season that is a similar though still advantage Lavin, starting point and Mullin deserves extra credit for getting us here under way more difficult circumstances. that is accurate. Mahoney, Fraschilla, Jarvis, Lavin, Roberts all inherited good to great teams. Mullin not only inherited zero players but also a very disenfranchised recruiting base. That is not Lavin bashing or Mullin blind love, That is accurate.[/quote]

We have been spinning our wheels for a few years now regarding the state and future of the program. In Mullin's 4th year it is senseless to continue to fault any particular coach any longer. What is accurate is that other than DePaul we have been the least stable program in the Big East for 22 years now. That says a lot about the administrative capabilities of both schools in the management of their only revenue generating sport.
WhIle other major programs have had dedicated long term staff to recruit talent over those 22 years, as you noted with the names Mahoney, Fraschilla, Jarvis, Lavin, Roberts and now Mullin, we have had a carousel of coaches, almost all of whom were a risk at some level or other. In comparison to Butler, Xavier or Providence we have been a mediocre disaster.
While I agree with Sterling about the quantity of talent finally in the program, it will have to gel and gel quickly for the level of success at the three schools I mentioned.
Staff stability has been THE MAJOR issue over the years. This staff has been no different with the Mitch and Slice pony show. I'm hoping all that changes this season on many levels.[/quote]

Winning quiets all grumbles, turns snarls to smiles, and spins 'issues' into opportunities. Let's win.
 
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