I don't think Lavin is the answer...
- Thread starter SJU61982
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In defense of the O.P., there really is no evidence that Lavin can coach at all. Yes the recruiting is fine, and it is true that in the watered-down state of college basketball getting players is perhaps three-quarters of the battle.
However it is really painful to watch a team play with as little intelligence and organization as we do, and the responsibility for that falls squarely on the staff. We might very well have lost to Nova tonight - or Marquette, or Providence, or Pittsburgh for that matter - anyway. But at least we might have been spared watching what is frankly just bad basketball.
I have no memory of ever watching a team run a pick-and-no-roll like we do. There is no play that we run that ever has any designed option for anyone other than the ballhandler to score. Our points come from one of four things (1) the ballhandler executing either in isolation or off of the high pick (with no roll), (2) transition, (3) broken plays (or desperation when the shot clock is running down), (4) offensive rebounds. In three seasons I have yet to see anything run that has ANY built-in plan other than for the ballhandler to score. There are no screens, no curls, no backdoor cuts, no motion offense, nothing. Passing the ball around the perimeter in the hope that a defender will be hypnotized by the lateral motion of the basketball or maybe trip over his own feet and provide an opening does not count. It sure makes it easy to defend us when every team we play knows that if they key on the ballhandler they will take away 80% of our plan. Even if all we did was add the "roll" to the pick-and-roll it would create a secondary option, but apparently we don't believe in that.
It goes without saying that the team hasn't the slightest idea how to attack a zone, which is ironic since that is often what we face.
As I've pointed out before, the idea of using a zone defense is completely inconsistent with the recruiting and the offensive idea of trying to score in transition (since it's apparently too much work to actually coach a halfcourt offense). If you are going to recruit athletes and try to score in transition, then wouldn't it make sense to press, trap, and play man defense to create the sort of chaos you want to score off of, instead of sitting back in what may be the worst zone in the history of organized basketball?
I am not even going to get into the lack of individual player coaching (did it occur to anyone on the staff after Jakarr missed his 12th or so jumper tonight to suggest to him that he try taking the ball to the rim?), the substitution pattern (if you want Bourgault to shoot, then you might have to leave him in the game for more than 3 minutes at a stretch since it's kind of tough to get hot when you're yanked in and out of the game like a yo-yo), or playing guys who can't play (memo to whatever poster torched Branch - he is plainly hurt and cannot move at all. He shouldn't have been in the game, period).
I'm also not going to get into the bonehead plays and unforced errors that you rarely see from well-coached teams but which are epidemic from our squad.
Would we have been better with Harkless? Well, sure. But that is what you get when you recruit one-and-done players. We would have been better with Polee, or Harrison, or Gift, or Sanchez too. But when the players you recruit leave or get suspended or aren't eligible, then the responsibility for that lies with the person who recruited them.
This is about more that the Nova game, which was a tough row to hoe without Harrison and really without Branch against a team that needed the win for an NCAA bid. At this point it is a three-year sample, and the sample looks a whole lot like the Lavin UCLA sample, only with less talent.
For all that, I agree with MJ Maher and others - if Harrison and Sampson return and if Sanchez is eligible, there will be enough talent on this team to get to the Sweet 16 next year (I think Gift is pretty much irrelevant to that prospect if everyone else comes back). Not only that, I think it will have a good shot of getting there, particularly if the college game in general is as bad as it has been this year.
However, unless there is some major re-thinking of the staff and the approach, it will still be bad basketball. Frankly, I enjoyed watching Seton Hall - which has absolutely no players whatsoever - more than I enjoyed our game. Seton Hall had no talent, went up against an athletic Syracuse team that is almost as boneheaded as we are but has even better athletes, and played them even for 30 minutes. They hit a bunch of shots to do it, but so did Syracuse (well, Southerland, anyway). The reason they were in the game that long was because even though they had no players, they had a plan and they executed it with discipline and made very few errors. In short, they played good basketball and they gave themselves a chance in a game that they had no business being on on talent alone.
It would be nice if we could add someone to the staff with that skill set and if that person was handed the keys so that Lavin could do the things he does best - recruit, do PR, and motivate.
P.S. - if you separate out the C-7 teams on your BET bracket, SJU would have finished 5th out of 7. My estimation is that if Butler, Creighton and Xavier were i the league then SJU would have finished 8th out of 10. Since the new Big East will probably be a 3-bid league, there is clearly room for improvement.
However it is really painful to watch a team play with as little intelligence and organization as we do, and the responsibility for that falls squarely on the staff. We might very well have lost to Nova tonight - or Marquette, or Providence, or Pittsburgh for that matter - anyway. But at least we might have been spared watching what is frankly just bad basketball.
I have no memory of ever watching a team run a pick-and-no-roll like we do. There is no play that we run that ever has any designed option for anyone other than the ballhandler to score. Our points come from one of four things (1) the ballhandler executing either in isolation or off of the high pick (with no roll), (2) transition, (3) broken plays (or desperation when the shot clock is running down), (4) offensive rebounds. In three seasons I have yet to see anything run that has ANY built-in plan other than for the ballhandler to score. There are no screens, no curls, no backdoor cuts, no motion offense, nothing. Passing the ball around the perimeter in the hope that a defender will be hypnotized by the lateral motion of the basketball or maybe trip over his own feet and provide an opening does not count. It sure makes it easy to defend us when every team we play knows that if they key on the ballhandler they will take away 80% of our plan. Even if all we did was add the "roll" to the pick-and-roll it would create a secondary option, but apparently we don't believe in that.
It goes without saying that the team hasn't the slightest idea how to attack a zone, which is ironic since that is often what we face.
As I've pointed out before, the idea of using a zone defense is completely inconsistent with the recruiting and the offensive idea of trying to score in transition (since it's apparently too much work to actually coach a halfcourt offense). If you are going to recruit athletes and try to score in transition, then wouldn't it make sense to press, trap, and play man defense to create the sort of chaos you want to score off of, instead of sitting back in what may be the worst zone in the history of organized basketball?
I am not even going to get into the lack of individual player coaching (did it occur to anyone on the staff after Jakarr missed his 12th or so jumper tonight to suggest to him that he try taking the ball to the rim?), the substitution pattern (if you want Bourgault to shoot, then you might have to leave him in the game for more than 3 minutes at a stretch since it's kind of tough to get hot when you're yanked in and out of the game like a yo-yo), or playing guys who can't play (memo to whatever poster torched Branch - he is plainly hurt and cannot move at all. He shouldn't have been in the game, period).
I'm also not going to get into the bonehead plays and unforced errors that you rarely see from well-coached teams but which are epidemic from our squad.
Would we have been better with Harkless? Well, sure. But that is what you get when you recruit one-and-done players. We would have been better with Polee, or Harrison, or Gift, or Sanchez too. But when the players you recruit leave or get suspended or aren't eligible, then the responsibility for that lies with the person who recruited them.
This is about more that the Nova game, which was a tough row to hoe without Harrison and really without Branch against a team that needed the win for an NCAA bid. At this point it is a three-year sample, and the sample looks a whole lot like the Lavin UCLA sample, only with less talent.
For all that, I agree with MJ Maher and others - if Harrison and Sampson return and if Sanchez is eligible, there will be enough talent on this team to get to the Sweet 16 next year (I think Gift is pretty much irrelevant to that prospect if everyone else comes back). Not only that, I think it will have a good shot of getting there, particularly if the college game in general is as bad as it has been this year.
However, unless there is some major re-thinking of the staff and the approach, it will still be bad basketball. Frankly, I enjoyed watching Seton Hall - which has absolutely no players whatsoever - more than I enjoyed our game. Seton Hall had no talent, went up against an athletic Syracuse team that is almost as boneheaded as we are but has even better athletes, and played them even for 30 minutes. They hit a bunch of shots to do it, but so did Syracuse (well, Southerland, anyway). The reason they were in the game that long was because even though they had no players, they had a plan and they executed it with discipline and made very few errors. In short, they played good basketball and they gave themselves a chance in a game that they had no business being on on talent alone.
It would be nice if we could add someone to the staff with that skill set and if that person was handed the keys so that Lavin could do the things he does best - recruit, do PR, and motivate.
P.S. - if you separate out the C-7 teams on your BET bracket, SJU would have finished 5th out of 7. My estimation is that if Butler, Creighton and Xavier were i the league then SJU would have finished 8th out of 10. Since the new Big East will probably be a 3-bid league, there is clearly room for improvement.
queensbridge
Member
It's clear by now Lavin is not the guy to get the most out of his players or develop a system to capitalize on the strengths of individuals. At best, he is going to be able to throw enough talent on the court to achieve some level of success on their own which is what I am fully expecting for next year. Regardless of what happens next year the future for this program is very uncertain right now. We are relying on a coach to bring in top talent just to keep us afloat. A vicious cycle can certainly develop where lack of success on the court leads to a reluctance of players to come here.
Excuse me for asking, but what makes any of you think Lavin can be successful in the NCAA tourney if we even got there? He had teams at UCLA 10 times more talented and they would get to the sweet 16 and flounder. I say this truly believing he has a long future here.
As bad as it sounds his battle with cancer bought him an extra year. If it wasn't for that battle next year would be his 4th year with the team. If we end up not making the NCAA's next year the track record reads, 4 seasons, 1 NCAA appearance. 0-1 record, appearance came with Norm's players!
Luckily he will have 2 years to truly show progress. We were a bit better this year than last so I think it's premature at the moment to thrust him on the hot seat. With that said things need to change... Here are those things IMO:
Cut the rotation down: Guys like Amir showed they put no time in towards improving(he was busy with baseball).
Find a true X's and O's assistant. That timeout tonight off a score and a nice spurt was agregious. He's done that plenty of times and has shown himself to be a below average in-game coach.
Get Jordan. Plain and simple Phil Greene couldn't beat my grandma off the dribble. Everyone laments our lack of shooters... Well that problem is made to haunt us tenfold when all we can do is stand around the perimeter and hand the ball off. We need a guy to get into the paint with regularity. Phil can't do it, DLo can't due to lack of athleticism. Branch has shown glimpses of this ability but needs to improve.
Lastly Lavin needs to make sure everyone notices the team is picking up steam. That's half the battle. Get some excitement generated around the program early next season and sustain it.
As bad as it sounds his battle with cancer bought him an extra year. If it wasn't for that battle next year would be his 4th year with the team. If we end up not making the NCAA's next year the track record reads, 4 seasons, 1 NCAA appearance. 0-1 record, appearance came with Norm's players!
Luckily he will have 2 years to truly show progress. We were a bit better this year than last so I think it's premature at the moment to thrust him on the hot seat. With that said things need to change... Here are those things IMO:
Cut the rotation down: Guys like Amir showed they put no time in towards improving(he was busy with baseball).
Find a true X's and O's assistant. That timeout tonight off a score and a nice spurt was agregious. He's done that plenty of times and has shown himself to be a below average in-game coach.
Get Jordan. Plain and simple Phil Greene couldn't beat my grandma off the dribble. Everyone laments our lack of shooters... Well that problem is made to haunt us tenfold when all we can do is stand around the perimeter and hand the ball off. We need a guy to get into the paint with regularity. Phil can't do it, DLo can't due to lack of athleticism. Branch has shown glimpses of this ability but needs to improve.
Lastly Lavin needs to make sure everyone notices the team is picking up steam. That's half the battle. Get some excitement generated around the program early next season and sustain it.
Excellent evaluation of the team, season and staff, but sad as well. After reading through your post, and having watched several teams play this year, I recall seeing many games with teams of far less talented personnel run effective offenses, execute fundamentals and utilize their personnel better. Here we have a ton of top 100 players yet we watch teams of no ranked players shoot the ball well, run pick and rolls and play hard. We all complain that we lack shooters but outside of a one on one move 90 percent of the time are the kids being put into a position to get off a good shot? And while I certainly appreciate the recruiting effort in the past of this staff, as has been discussed on other threads, we need to bring in players in each class or risk a mass exodus in a few years and then we may be called " forever young".
But then again, coach Lavin has been through two stressful years with his cancer fight, his dad passing and DLo distraction, but next year with DLo handled right and the additional talent of Sanchez, there should be no reason to falter. There will be no more young team, an abundance of talent and a fresh start. Lavs does need a better top assistant though and could someone tell me how the hire of Mr. Hicks has helped with recruiting or otherwise?
This cracks me up. You know what- his assistants suck too. I doubt Lavin or Keady has EVER talked to the team about how to attack a zone. That probably never came up during practice. In the huddle against NOVA they actually said- Jakkar keep taking jump shots, don't ever attack the rim. Some posters are out of their mind.
Agree.... I was just telling someone that college basketball is watered down. But that is a topic for another day.
The team isn't smart. I've been saying it since early in the season. When you have no shooters; lack an inside presence; and, have a low hoops IQ, then you're generally gonna get bad basketball. I've long stated that we need a couple of true basketball players.
The team two years ago seemed to do well versus a zone, as the season went on. I can recall them doing a very, good job versus Syracuse's zone in the Big East Tournament. We still ended up losing, but that had more to do with CJ Fair and Fab Melo getting offensive rebounds on us more than anything.
I've long stated that we should press, trap, and turn the game into a helter-skelter setting since we have a group who is best in that kinda game versus a game where they have trouble executing in the halfcourt (ie, lack of shooters and lack of inside game). We have enough depth to where we can play a pressing-style of basketball.
These kids have done a poor job playing the zone for the most part, this season. They may play it well a couple of possessions. But on a very, key possession someone forgets the principle of the zone and get caught out in no man's land, and the opposition hits a big trey. That's just an example.
I also think Sampson should start taking the ball to the hole more. He's fallen in love too much with the midrange jumper. I like that he has shown he can hit it. But he should also use another asset of his game, and what he was known for in high school.... That is attacking the tin.
I've also never understood Bourgault getting yo-yo'd in-and-out of the game.
I don't think Branch was 100%, but I think he was healthy enough to play (maybe, he's still limited.... I'm not sure). It's like he shows glimpses of solid play, and then he'll have 2 or 3 plays that makes you scratch your head. Maybe, he'll come around with another offseason.
The team from a couple of seasons ago played smarter, so I'm not sure how much is it is on the staff. Like I've stated before, this team lacks any form of hoops IQ.
Well.... When the staff had to bring in 10 players after the first season, then you have to take chances. That has been mentioned many times on these boards. I have no problem about them taking some risks. It's about trying to immediately compete versus it being a much, longer and slower process. It sure beats what was being brought in here for the past decade.
Willard is probably a better X's and O's guy than Lavin. You probably won't get much of an argument from several folks on that one. The difference is Seton Hall has several guys who can ring the bell from deep. It's much easier to "run your stuff" when you're able to shoot it from deep.
IMO, Seton Hall didn't play particularly discipline midway through the second half. They were rushing shots, which allowed Syracuse to go on top and, eventually, extend their lead. But when you limit your turnovers (which, Seton Hall did) and shoot extremely well from deep (which, the Pirates also did), then you give yourself a chance. Like I said, you can 'open it up' when you're capable of keeping the defense honest.
The three-point shot is also the death of Seton Hall. Something they can lean on, nonetheless. It's also gonna be two-fold for Willard, as he'll never be able to get the requisite talent to win. I'd rather be in our situation than Seton Hall's.
We're not sure what would've happened, if those teams were in the Big East this season. Let one of our former posters tell it, we would smack around Creighton. Maybe, those teams would've been better than us or maybe, not.
We could all play the "if" game, and it would go on for days. I'll say next season--on the court and off the court (ie, recruiting)--is gonna be very important for the program and staff.
Say what you will about Lavin, But, if we had Sanchez, Harkless, Gift, Branch for a full season and healthy and D-Lo with his head on straight we could have been a sweet sixteen team this season. I think because the program was in such bad shape, Lavin took a chance on some kids and he had some things not work out quite the way he wanted too. It happens. Looking to next season, you add Gift, Sanchez, a shooter like Hooper and D-Lo with his head on straight and this is a sweet sixteen team. I expect Sampson to be a beast next year, i expect Obepka to improve offensively and I also expect Gift to be a beast on the boards and defensively. Greene showed flashes this year and i think he improves as long as his health does. If we get Jordan even better.
Moe couldn't have left if he had gotten a normal freshman introduction and appropriate minutes. When you have six guys however there's little choice. Same thing happened with Omar Cook when Jarvis handed him the ball. You can get 8 apg when you play 35 minutes. This crap is nothing new for SJU and it wouldn't shock me if Sampson flew if a bird gets in his year. This is all the tragedy of poor planning and roster mismanagement. Lavin has somehow managed to attain untouchable status and a cult following here. To date any real doubts about the coach subjected posters to ridicule and insults. Sometimes it sucks to be right but all you have to do is watch objectively to see what's really going on. To me the Harrison thing was the last straw. Not because he probably didn't deserve it but because it amounted to throwing in the season for everyone who still had some hope for a decent finish. Things like that don't happen overnight and even DLos' grandma knows mistakes were made on both sides. I refuse to believe that this outcome wasn't unavoidable but with the customary silence that surrounds Lavin's program we'll never know. I'm sure if there was a way to disguise the 16 win total it would be done. I'm sure I'll be attacked for this post too but what else is new?
beast of the east
Active member
Harkless leaving after one year is a tremendous testament to the level of talent Lavin was able to bring in starting at square one. There is nothing negative about the program when a guy can go one and out. HE brought in solid first round NBA talent, and will continue to do so.
Don't play the victim.... Your posts are dismissed because it's usually filled with hyperbole and obfuscation. Not to mention, you like to pass off your wonderful imagination as facts.
Poor planning was actually made by the coach who preceded Lavin. The person who left the staff with 10 roster spots that needed to be filled in one season. If Lavin had gone out and used 4 or 5 of those scholarships on kids who couldn't contribute 'til their junior and/or senior seasons, then you'd still be complaining.
Part of why Cook left was because he didn't get along with Jarvis. If you think every player that leaves early is due to them getting a ton of minutes, then I can show you a few situations where players have left early without logging a boatload of minutes.
Sometimes it sucks to right, huh? LOL Please! Another thing: Do not use objectivity and your name in the same sentence.
So, the staff should just allow Harrison (who had been disciplined a couple of times) to continue his behavior at all costs, huh? Are you that inadequate? Just curious.
How do you know what Harrison's gradmother knows mistakes were made on both sides?
How do you know the outcome was avoidable? Like I said a week ago, I've practically stayed out of the Harrison debacle, as it'll eventually play itself out. But I recall Harrison cursing at Gift last season during our game versus West Virginia. Something happened between a WVU player and Harrison, and Harrison was livid. Gift was trying to calm him down, and he was getting ticked at Gift, started tossing out explicit language. Most folks know Gift comes off as mild-mannered, and I felt Harrison was being over-the-top in his defense that particular night. I like Harrison and his fiery spirit, but if he has some other issues that is holding back himself and the team, then the suspension probably was warranted.
Hopefully, he'll rectify the situation next season.
Right on schedule. First of all keeping Ron Roberts would have enabled us to split time between the two. Producing one and done talent when you're losing is hardly beneficial. Winning programs have layers of talent that allows consistent performance and we're a long way from that. This year's recruiting tells the story of the wonderfulness of sending Moe to the league. And please, don't tell me we have no slots to work with. Openings can always be created when studs come knocking.
Yes but on a team with no returning players it takes a full recruiting cycle of four years to get that cycle of talent. There's more than 1 player who has been starting the last two years often that should have been learning with sub minutes and making significant contributions in their Jr. and Sr. years but couldn't due to the situation. Key now is to actuallly find those one/two and doners (let's be seroius, he's recruited two in four years, it's not exactly a pattern) and positions of need to complement the guys that will be entering the productive phases of their career the next two years. Roberts the answer? Not if Gift or Sanchez played this year but in hindsight 3 years later knowing how the season progressed he would have been useful, but hindsight is useless.
Your right, Lavin has done a terrible job at SJU but becuase he is not Norm Roberts, people love him, Norm did just as good a job as Lavin. Norm Roberts inherited a terrible situation from that jack ass, Mike Jarvis. I think Iona had the right idea, they thought outside the box, with a coach who plays uptempo. The best thing that happened to Iona was Willard leaving for Seton Hall, He is worse than Lavin.
Roberts was given a lot of rope here, and he could stop trying to hang himself with it. He started the imbalance of scholarships. You should have stopped after calling Jarvis a jackass. Giving Roberts some shiny badge for not being a bore like Jarvis, is hardly complimentary. He was in way over his head, and was beyond fortunate Fr. Harrington didn't care about hoops and like him personally.
Secondly, what in bloody hell are you bringing Iona and Willard leaving there for Seton Hall. Are you related to Baldi or something?
This is a criticism of your inane ramblings.
RedStormRising
Well-known member
This is the most confusing group of fans ever.
There is a portion of this board that wants to run Lavin out the door after 3 years, one of which he wasn't even on the bench for.
Than there is a portion of the board who will defend Lavin at the expense of our players, equally insane in my view.
This is crazy to me. Our we fans or just fans of when it is convenient?
This is how I see it. Lavin is recruiting talented athletes and working hard to make them a basketball team. Harkless was a rare talent that would have make us a 20 win team this year. On top of that he would have been the best outside shooter on the team. Do I begrudge him for leaving to be a first round pick in the NBA? Not a chance. If my son had a chance to go 15 in the draft I would tell him to leave college in a heartbeat.
Next, our team will be fine next year. There are a bundle of teams that would like to have our problems a) A center that could be an NBA talent in Sanchez b) a Big East Rookie of the year (that has been mocked on this board of being to inconsistent, imagine a freshman that's inconsisent) in Jakarr, who has a great chance of playing in the pros sooner rather than later c) CO is a All Big East team honorable mention and d) D'lo, a potential scorer that could come back looking more like he did versus 'Nova than he did in his last 5 games.
Also, the New Big East is a 5 bid league all day long. I think we have a good chance of being one of those 5.
And I will be rooting for them the whole time.
There is a portion of this board that wants to run Lavin out the door after 3 years, one of which he wasn't even on the bench for.
Than there is a portion of the board who will defend Lavin at the expense of our players, equally insane in my view.
This is crazy to me. Our we fans or just fans of when it is convenient?
This is how I see it. Lavin is recruiting talented athletes and working hard to make them a basketball team. Harkless was a rare talent that would have make us a 20 win team this year. On top of that he would have been the best outside shooter on the team. Do I begrudge him for leaving to be a first round pick in the NBA? Not a chance. If my son had a chance to go 15 in the draft I would tell him to leave college in a heartbeat.
Next, our team will be fine next year. There are a bundle of teams that would like to have our problems a) A center that could be an NBA talent in Sanchez b) a Big East Rookie of the year (that has been mocked on this board of being to inconsistent, imagine a freshman that's inconsisent) in Jakarr, who has a great chance of playing in the pros sooner rather than later c) CO is a All Big East team honorable mention and d) D'lo, a potential scorer that could come back looking more like he did versus 'Nova than he did in his last 5 games.
Also, the New Big East is a 5 bid league all day long. I think we have a good chance of being one of those 5.
And I will be rooting for them the whole time.