Former staff debate (from fall visit thread)

[quote="Class of 72" post=358609][quote="Beast of the East" post=358605][quote="Class of 72" post=358574]Beast wrote:
"I know CMA is doing all the right things. I can tell you that on a recent trip to Columbia MO to visit a client, the talk turned to basketball since they knew I'm a big SJU fan. In a conversation with about a dozen guys - two Arkansas residents and fans, and 10 Mizzou fans, not a single one was positive about CMA. Like my view of our former coaches though, even mentioned positive aspects of his ability."

Are you saying that everyone mentioned positive things about Mike but 12 fans were overall being negative about CMA??? I'm not sure this type of review screams optimism and seems to accentuate a pessimistic outlook because of who we hired.
Missouri hired Frank Haith after CMA. We all know how that ended. Were the Tiger fans positive about him?
Arkansas went to 5 post season appearances in CMA's final 6 years. After the Chris Mullin disaster every Redman fan has a right to be negative. Those Tiger and Razorback fans can kiss CMA's ass as far as I'm concerned.[/quote]

A little over the top on your part. What I am saying is that neither fan base feels in the aggregate that they lost a great coach.

I do think given where we are that he is a great fit for us, who along with Mike Cragg, is a seasoned professional who both are giving us what we would expect from two guys who have been around this a long time, have winning experience from big time programs, and we will not deal with any of the speculative nonsense about effort, knowledge, coaching ability. Both are steady hands at the wheel, and I think if we have reasonable expectations of being consistently competitive during his tenure, we will be just fine. Beyond a reasonable expectation of making the tournament maybe 2-3 times in 6 years (this year likely a wash), I think is within reach. A high expectation beyond that is a little crazy. I would put my over an under at 2 NCAA bids over the next 6 years. 1 would be a disappointment, 3+ would be phenomenal.[/quote]

I'm trying to be optimistic about the current staff. Stating that 12 fans in your retrospective focus group were basically negative is not helpful to our particular fan base.
That neither coach were great is an understatement. Coach Mike Anderson was a very successful and established college coach. His record speaks for itself. We were just lucky he was let go while we were looking (in all the wrong places as usual) for a replacement for arguably the worst hire after Norm Roberts in St. John's basketball history.
If CMA made post season appearances 5 of the last 6 years at Arkansas why would we fans be crazy to hope for the same after this coming season.?????? That would imply Chris Mullin left St. John's in a major shit hole after producing next to zero in program growth.
I expect the Big East to be a 4 or 5 team NCAA post season conference every year with another 2 or 3 going to the NIT.
Here's my prediction: we will go to post season every year CMA is coach with the possible exception of this season. It would not surprise me that if Steere. Sears, Heron, Figueroa and Dunn perform at 100 % of their abilities that we get an NIT bid.
My advice to fellow fans is to look at the combined experience of this staff and be thankful we didn't end up with an average mid major coach doomed to fail at St. John's.[/quote]

I know you are just a contrarian, potentially a bi-polar one :)

The point is that for all the accolades, CMA is simply doing what any competent coach would be expected to do. To compare him to the failings of past regimes and throw rocks at them in progress while heaping praise on him was inappropriate.

He's a good coach with a good resume doing the things that any good coach should do. Quite possibly the best overall coach we've had in 30 years post Looie, and he is being paid as such. However, he is not Coach K, Calhoun, Boeheim, Calipari, or even close to that level of success. Should he build a top 15 team here and keep us there would be his best career achievement by far. Keep in mind that some of the most ecstatic posters here regarding his preseason activity have also dropped as ticket holder, some long ago. IF you are so on board 72, renew your tickets. We could use you.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=358605][quote="Class of 72" post=358574]Beast wrote:
"I know CMA is doing all the right things. I can tell you that on a recent trip to Columbia MO to visit a client, the talk turned to basketball since they knew I'm a big SJU fan. In a conversation with about a dozen guys - two Arkansas residents and fans, and 10 Mizzou fans, not a single one was positive about CMA. Like my view of our former coaches though, even mentioned positive aspects of his ability."

Are you saying that everyone mentioned positive things about Mike but 12 fans were overall being negative about CMA??? I'm not sure this type of review screams optimism and seems to accentuate a pessimistic outlook because of who we hired.
Missouri hired Frank Haith after CMA. We all know how that ended. Were the Tiger fans positive about him?
Arkansas went to 5 post season appearances in CMA's final 6 years. After the Chris Mullin disaster every Redman fan has a right to be negative. Those Tiger and Razorback fans can kiss CMA's ass as far as I'm concerned.[/quote]

A little over the top on your part. What I am saying is that neither fan base feels in the aggregate that they lost a great coach.

I do think given where we are that he is a great fit for us, who along with Mike Cragg, is a seasoned professional who both are giving us what we would expect from two guys who have been around this a long time, have winning experience from big time programs, and we will not deal with any of the speculative nonsense about effort, knowledge, coaching ability. Both are steady hands at the wheel, and I think if we have reasonable expectations of being consistently competitive during his tenure, we will be just fine. Beyond a reasonable expectation of making the tournament maybe 2-3 times in 6 years (this year likely a wash), I think is within reach. A high expectation beyond that is a little crazy. I would put my over an under at 2 NCAA bids over the next 6 years. 1 would be a disappointment, 3+ would be phenomenal.[/quote] A realistic post. I’m a little greedy and would like an NCAA win, it’s been a long time. Although I certainly don’t expect to make the tourney this year.
 
Beast re your last post-by saying CMA is only doing what any competent coach would do you are basically saying that our previous coach who did not come close to doing those things was incompetent. Oh well, I guess better late than never.
 
[quote="Class of 72" post=358609][quote="Beast of the East" post=358605][quote="Class of 72" post=358574]Beast wrote:
"I know CMA is doing all the right things. I can tell you that on a recent trip to Columbia MO to visit a client, the talk turned to basketball since they knew I'm a big SJU fan. In a conversation with about a dozen guys - two Arkansas residents and fans, and 10 Mizzou fans, not a single one was positive about CMA. Like my view of our former coaches though, even mentioned positive aspects of his ability."

Are you saying that everyone mentioned positive things about Mike but 12 fans were overall being negative about CMA??? I'm not sure this type of review screams optimism and seems to accentuate a pessimistic outlook because of who we hired.
Missouri hired Frank Haith after CMA. We all know how that ended. Were the Tiger fans positive about him?
Arkansas went to 5 post season appearances in CMA's final 6 years. After the Chris Mullin disaster every Redman fan has a right to be negative. Those Tiger and Razorback fans can kiss CMA's ass as far as I'm concerned.[/quote]

A little over the top on your part. What I am saying is that neither fan base feels in the aggregate that they lost a great coach.

I do think given where we are that he is a great fit for us, who along with Mike Cragg, is a seasoned professional who both are giving us what we would expect from two guys who have been around this a long time, have winning experience from big time programs, and we will not deal with any of the speculative nonsense about effort, knowledge, coaching ability. Both are steady hands at the wheel, and I think if we have reasonable expectations of being consistently competitive during his tenure, we will be just fine. Beyond a reasonable expectation of making the tournament maybe 2-3 times in 6 years (this year likely a wash), I think is within reach. A high expectation beyond that is a little crazy. I would put my over an under at 2 NCAA bids over the next 6 years. 1 would be a disappointment, 3+ would be phenomenal.[/quote]

I'm trying to be optimistic about the current staff. Stating that 12 fans in your retrospective focus group were basically negative is not helpful to our particular fan base.
That neither coach were great is an understatement. Coach Mike Anderson was a very successful and established college coach. His record speaks for itself. We were just lucky he was let go while we were looking (in all the wrong places as usual) for a replacement for arguably the worst hire after Norm Roberts in St. John's basketball history.
If CMA made post season appearances 5 of the last 6 years at Arkansas why would we fans be crazy to hope for the same after this coming season.?????? That would imply Chris Mullin left St. John's in a major shit hole after producing next to zero in program growth.
I expect the Big East to be a 4 or 5 team NCAA post season conference every year with another 2 or 3 going to the NIT.
Here's my prediction: we will go to post season every year CMA is coach with the possible exception of this season. It would not surprise me that if Steere. Sears, Heron, Figueroa and Dunn perform at 100 % of their abilities that we get an NIT bid.
My advice to fellow fans is to look at the combined experience of this staff and be thankful we didn't end up with an average mid major coach doomed to fail at St. John's.[/quote]

I almost clicked on my first-ever "thank you" to Class of 72. But I didn't. I will just say that I agree with virtually all of his post (I disagree with the implication that Mullin was the second-worst hire after Norm, but I'm not restarting that argument again - we have so many bad hires to choose from that the argument can go on infinitely (and has)).

Other than that, after looking at this thread and the Cole thread in recruiting, I think i will go back into hibernation for awhile. I wonder what the overlap is between our fan base and the Jets - the commonality of the misanthropic, passive-aggressive, argumentative negativity, combined with the unquenchable desire to tear down anything remotely positive is really very striking.
 
[quote="bamafan" post=358628]Beast re your last post-by saying CMA is only doing what any competent coach would do you are basically saying that our previous coach who did not come close to doing those things was incompetent. Oh well, I guess better late than never.[/quote]

You are free to interpret it that way but Beast said nothing negative about our prior staff , he only made sure to praise the current staff.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=358605][quote="Class of 72" post=358574]Beast wrote:
"I know CMA is doing all the right things. I can tell you that on a recent trip to Columbia MO to visit a client, the talk turned to basketball since they knew I'm a big SJU fan. In a conversation with about a dozen guys - two Arkansas residents and fans, and 10 Mizzou fans, not a single one was positive about CMA. Like my view of our former coaches though, even mentioned positive aspects of his ability."

Are you saying that everyone mentioned positive things about Mike but 12 fans were overall being negative about CMA??? I'm not sure this type of review screams optimism and seems to accentuate a pessimistic outlook because of who we hired.
Missouri hired Frank Haith after CMA. We all know how that ended. Were the Tiger fans positive about him?
Arkansas went to 5 post season appearances in CMA's final 6 years. After the Chris Mullin disaster every Redman fan has a right to be negative. Those Tiger and Razorback fans can kiss CMA's ass as far as I'm concerned.[/quote]

A little over the top on your part. What I am saying is that neither fan base feels in the aggregate that they lost a great coach.

I do think given where we are that he is a great fit for us, who along with Mike Cragg, is a seasoned professional who both are giving us what we would expect from two guys who have been around this a long time, have winning experience from big time programs, and we will not deal with any of the speculative nonsense about effort, knowledge, coaching ability. Both are steady hands at the wheel, and I think if we have reasonable expectations of being consistently competitive during his tenure, we will be just fine. Beyond a reasonable expectation of making the tournament maybe 2-3 times in 6 years (this year likely a wash), I think is within reach. A high expectation beyond that is a little crazy. I would put my over an under at 2 NCAA bids over the next 6 years. 1 would be a disappointment, 3+ would be phenomenal.[/quote]

Beast I've basically been saying the same thing about tourney appearances/expectations since CMA was hired. I've said before and I'll say it again, I foresee Lavin-like results(2-3 appearances in 5 years) without the drama. Now, will that be good enough for our fan base? Right now most everyone is saying that it will be, but talk to me again in 5 years.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=358615][quote="Class of 72" post=358609][quote="Beast of the East" post=358605][quote="Class of 72" post=358574]Beast wrote:
"I know CMA is doing all the right things. I can tell you that on a recent trip to Columbia MO to visit a client, the talk turned to basketball since they knew I'm a big SJU fan. In a conversation with about a dozen guys - two Arkansas residents and fans, and 10 Mizzou fans, not a single one was positive about CMA. Like my view of our former coaches though, even mentioned positive aspects of his ability."

Are you saying that everyone mentioned positive things about Mike but 12 fans were overall being negative about CMA??? I'm not sure this type of review screams optimism and seems to accentuate a pessimistic outlook because of who we hired.
Missouri hired Frank Haith after CMA. We all know how that ended. Were the Tiger fans positive about him?
Arkansas went to 5 post season appearances in CMA's final 6 years. After the Chris Mullin disaster every Redman fan has a right to be negative. Those Tiger and Razorback fans can kiss CMA's ass as far as I'm concerned.[/quote]

A little over the top on your part. What I am saying is that neither fan base feels in the aggregate that they lost a great coach.

I do think given where we are that he is a great fit for us, who along with Mike Cragg, is a seasoned professional who both are giving us what we would expect from two guys who have been around this a long time, have winning experience from big time programs, and we will not deal with any of the speculative nonsense about effort, knowledge, coaching ability. Both are steady hands at the wheel, and I think if we have reasonable expectations of being consistently competitive during his tenure, we will be just fine. Beyond a reasonable expectation of making the tournament maybe 2-3 times in 6 years (this year likely a wash), I think is within reach. A high expectation beyond that is a little crazy. I would put my over an under at 2 NCAA bids over the next 6 years. 1 would be a disappointment, 3+ would be phenomenal.[/quote]

I'm trying to be optimistic about the current staff. Stating that 12 fans in your retrospective focus group were basically negative is not helpful to our particular fan base.
That neither coach were great is an understatement. Coach Mike Anderson was a very successful and established college coach. His record speaks for itself. We were just lucky he was let go while we were looking (in all the wrong places as usual) for a replacement for arguably the worst hire after Norm Roberts in St. John's basketball history.
If CMA made post season appearances 5 of the last 6 years at Arkansas why would we fans be crazy to hope for the same after this coming season.?????? That would imply Chris Mullin left St. John's in a major shit hole after producing next to zero in program growth.
I expect the Big East to be a 4 or 5 team NCAA post season conference every year with another 2 or 3 going to the NIT.
Here's my prediction: we will go to post season every year CMA is coach with the possible exception of this season. It would not surprise me that if Steere. Sears, Heron, Figueroa and Dunn perform at 100 % of their abilities that we get an NIT bid.
My advice to fellow fans is to look at the combined experience of this staff and be thankful we didn't end up with an average mid major coach doomed to fail at St. John's.[/quote]

I know you are just a contrarian, potentially a bi-polar one :)

The point is that for all the accolades, CMA is simply doing what any competent coach would be expected to do. To compare him to the failings of past regimes and throw rocks at them in progress while heaping praise on him was inappropriate.

He's a good coach with a good resume doing the things that any good coach should do. Quite possibly the best overall coach we've had in 30 years post Looie, and he is being paid as such. However, he is not Coach K, Calhoun, Boeheim, Calipari, or even close to that level of success. Should he build a top 15 team here and keep us there would be his best career achievement by far. Keep in mind that some of the most ecstatic posters here regarding his preseason activity have also dropped as ticket holder, some long ago. IF you are so on board 72, renew your tickets. We could use you.[/quote]

I prefer masterdebater to contrarian.:)

I'm just following this thread as it derails itself into contradictory statements made to make more of previous staff accomplishments while minimizing the future impact of the current staff who have not coached one game as yet.
Thus, there is very little to praise about the current staff. The thread was changed to "Former Staff Debate" so there is no debate without differences of opinions and the interpretation of facts pertaining to won-loss records, recruitment strategies, etc.
Since any discussion of past coaches begins with the retirement of coach C it is not difficult to point out the two most positive hires given their reputation and records of sustained success. Mike Jarvis and Steve Lavin are those two coaches. Steve Lavin took 6 of his 7 UCLA teams to the Sweet 16 or better. He coached 4 full seasons at St. John's where we went to 2 NIT's and 2 NCAA tournaments. Every other coach in between had more negatives than positives over the course of their tenures. IMO, the absolute worst hire was Chris Mullin for the reasons stated ad nauseam.
Now, my only advice is to close this thread focused on the past and move forward. Unlike my outlook with the hires of Norm Roberts and Chris Mullin, I have good vibes about the current staff. To be successful they have to show that they can recruit highly rated players in the tradition of Mullin/Berry/Jackson and Artest/Barkley etc. Roberts and Mullin never came remotely close. I think this staff has the ability to do something.

Over and out.
 
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[quote="Beast of the East" post=358615][quote="Class of 72" post=358609][quote="Beast of the East" post=358605][quote="Class of 72" post=358574]Beast wrote:
"I know CMA is doing all the right things. I can tell you that on a recent trip to Columbia MO to visit a client, the talk turned to basketball since they knew I'm a big SJU fan. In a conversation with about a dozen guys - two Arkansas residents and fans, and 10 Mizzou fans, not a single one was positive about CMA. Like my view of our former coaches though, even mentioned positive aspects of his ability."

Are you saying that everyone mentioned positive things about Mike but 12 fans were overall being negative about CMA??? I'm not sure this type of review screams optimism and seems to accentuate a pessimistic outlook because of who we hired.
Missouri hired Frank Haith after CMA. We all know how that ended. Were the Tiger fans positive about him?
Arkansas went to 5 post season appearances in CMA's final 6 years. After the Chris Mullin disaster every Redman fan has a right to be negative. Those Tiger and Razorback fans can kiss CMA's ass as far as I'm concerned.[/quote]

A little over the top on your part. What I am saying is that neither fan base feels in the aggregate that they lost a great coach.

I do think given where we are that he is a great fit for us, who along with Mike Cragg, is a seasoned professional who both are giving us what we would expect from two guys who have been around this a long time, have winning experience from big time programs, and we will not deal with any of the speculative nonsense about effort, knowledge, coaching ability. Both are steady hands at the wheel, and I think if we have reasonable expectations of being consistently competitive during his tenure, we will be just fine. Beyond a reasonable expectation of making the tournament maybe 2-3 times in 6 years (this year likely a wash), I think is within reach. A high expectation beyond that is a little crazy. I would put my over an under at 2 NCAA bids over the next 6 years. 1 would be a disappointment, 3+ would be phenomenal.[/quote]

I'm trying to be optimistic about the current staff. Stating that 12 fans in your retrospective focus group were basically negative is not helpful to our particular fan base.
That neither coach were great is an understatement. Coach Mike Anderson was a very successful and established college coach. His record speaks for itself. We were just lucky he was let go while we were looking (in all the wrong places as usual) for a replacement for arguably the worst hire after Norm Roberts in St. John's basketball history.
If CMA made post season appearances 5 of the last 6 years at Arkansas why would we fans be crazy to hope for the same after this coming season.?????? That would imply Chris Mullin left St. John's in a major shit hole after producing next to zero in program growth.
I expect the Big East to be a 4 or 5 team NCAA post season conference every year with another 2 or 3 going to the NIT.
Here's my prediction: we will go to post season every year CMA is coach with the possible exception of this season. It would not surprise me that if Steere. Sears, Heron, Figueroa and Dunn perform at 100 % of their abilities that we get an NIT bid.
My advice to fellow fans is to look at the combined experience of this staff and be thankful we didn't end up with an average mid major coach doomed to fail at St. John's.[/quote]

I know you are just a contrarian, potentially a bi-polar one :)

The point is that for all the accolades, CMA is simply doing what any competent coach would be expected to do. To compare him to the failings of past regimes and throw rocks at them in progress while heaping praise on him was inappropriate.

.[/quote]

We've expected every coaching hire since Louie to "do what every competent coach would be expected to do."
The fact that he retired 27 years ago and we finally found a guy who does "what every competent coach is expected to do" each and every day speaks volumes about the INCOMPETENCE of each previous administration.

Frankly, the idea that reminding people of those staff's inability to "do what every competent coach would be expected to do" should be considered a public service announcement. And the notion that they should be given a pass for failing to do the basics of their jobs is offensive.
 
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This is all an interesting debate, but I don’t understand us having low expectations out of the gate. Coach Anderson has been to the tournament 9 out of his 17 seasons. The over/under for us should be 50%, not 33% (twice in six seasons). I expect him to be at least as successful here, as he’s been elsewhere. And I’m hopeful he’ll be a little more successful here given his renewed energy, the influence of Cragg, the attractiveness of playing at the Garden for future recruits, etc.

And I completely agree that the success, or lack thereof, of our recent coaching staffs should have zero influence over our expectations of this staff. Time will tell, but I am not expecting mediocrity here.
 
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[quote="lawmanfan" post=358630]
I almost clicked on my first-ever "thank you" to Class of 72. But I didn't. I will just say that I agree with virtually all of his post (I disagree with the implication that Mullin was the second-worst hire after Norm, but I'm not restarting that argument again - we have so many bad hires to choose from that the argument can go on infinitely (and has)).[/quote]

Too Late!! you just did... :)

And for what its worth, Mullin was the worst hire in this schools history. He had the worst resume for the job, he achieved the worst results compared to expectations, and he proved incapable of learning from his mistakes and managing his staff.
 
Absolutely. Hope we found a long term coach and staff.
Consistency in both is key to a programs success. It just seems like this roller coaster ride the last 20 yrs will not end. Been a Redmen fan since '70. Was a football recruit when program was starting up. Played summer baseball vs Coach Blankmeyer for years. Nassau Alliance league. He for North Shore and me for Mineola and my son Grad in '07. It's been so up and down for Johnnies in recent years. Hope CMA is finally "the guy".
 
It is all about stability, continuity and of course getting good players. With Cragg at the helm in contrast to considerable administrative ineptitude for so many years, perhaps he and Anderson can achieve that. Even accomplishing that, I am grounded re what success means. Just give me a consistently competitive program with occasional head turning final results ala Xavier.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=358683]It is all about stability, continuity and of course getting good players. With Cragg at the helm in contrast to considerable administrative ineptitude for so many years, perhaps he and Anderson can achieve that. Even accomplishing that, I am grounded re what success means. Just give me a consistently competitive program with occasional head turning final results ala Xavier.[/quote]

In my "yute" at St John's, we were almost always in a post season tournament, usually the NCAA's. That's all I ask. Be relevant, be competitive each year and give us a program worth rooting for. I truly believe that we are heading in that direction.
 
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