Final Grade
- Thread starter we are sju
- Start date
Ok, I'll bite.
Louie: B+. Many years of sustained success, but not many trips to the top of the mountain, or at least not close enough to the top of the mountain to warrant an A. During his tenure a few other BE programs had similar records of sustained success. Some of those got to the top of the mountain, and some who didn't have quite the same level of year-in year-out success got there as well. And that's just the BE, without getting into other truly top-tier programs around the country. Plus he coached in an era when SJU had an advantage over lots of places that it now doesn't have.
Mahoney: C. He had a few Louie-esque years, before his deficiencies caught up with him. I figure a few B- years and a couple of D-s work out to a C average.
Fraschilla: B+. Did a great job and had the program on track for great success. However, if you drop your trousers you can't get an A.
Jarvis: D. He gets no credit for the Elite 8 team (that team is partially factored into Fran's grade). He recruited thugs (Reggie Jesse) and bad attitudes (Omar Cook). He was too lazy to recruit, and was mediocre as a coach. And, he destroyed the program. The only thing that saves him from an F is Marcus Hatten.
Roberts: C-. Even I'm surprised by my grade for Norm. However, time tends to heal old wounds. The program he inherited was a dumpster fire. Not only did he get no help from the school, he clearly had limitations on his ability to recruit given the school's newfound standards in the post-Jarvis era. All things considered, he was probably about as good a coach/tactician as Jarvis was. And though it took him forever (again not entirely his fault), he did eventually bring in enough players to make a run at the NCAA tournament. I think there's a 50/50 chance he would have gotten there the same as Lavin did with that group of seniors.
SJU during the Roberts Years: F. This entry is here just to provide some context for Norm's grade. IMHO the program gets a resounding F from top to bottom during those years. The reason Norm gets a C- is because I think you have to measure him against the situation he was working with. It isn't like he was working with a Kentucky set of support or rules, or even a Duke set.
Lavin: B. Good recruiter. Good PR man for the program. Good motivator. Horrendous strategist and tactician. Took too many risks on players, failed to build a sustainable program. Failed to assemble a competent group of assistants to make up for his weaknesses. Got mediocre results (especially if you downgrade his first year, which I do). Possibly his most significant contribution was creating a mindset for the administration about spending money on the basketball program, since that budget can now be put to better use than paying Lavin and his crew. Ultimately left the program in better shape than he found it.
Mullin: Ask me in three years. Has to take all of the positive vibes and (and some tangible positive progress) and convert it to a program that has a definitive identity that carries through the years and results in a return to at least the Louie level of winning. He clearly has a plan, and there are high expectations. Have to wait to see the results, though. Fingers crossed.
Louie: B+. Many years of sustained success, but not many trips to the top of the mountain, or at least not close enough to the top of the mountain to warrant an A. During his tenure a few other BE programs had similar records of sustained success. Some of those got to the top of the mountain, and some who didn't have quite the same level of year-in year-out success got there as well. And that's just the BE, without getting into other truly top-tier programs around the country. Plus he coached in an era when SJU had an advantage over lots of places that it now doesn't have.
Mahoney: C. He had a few Louie-esque years, before his deficiencies caught up with him. I figure a few B- years and a couple of D-s work out to a C average.
Fraschilla: B+. Did a great job and had the program on track for great success. However, if you drop your trousers you can't get an A.
Jarvis: D. He gets no credit for the Elite 8 team (that team is partially factored into Fran's grade). He recruited thugs (Reggie Jesse) and bad attitudes (Omar Cook). He was too lazy to recruit, and was mediocre as a coach. And, he destroyed the program. The only thing that saves him from an F is Marcus Hatten.
Roberts: C-. Even I'm surprised by my grade for Norm. However, time tends to heal old wounds. The program he inherited was a dumpster fire. Not only did he get no help from the school, he clearly had limitations on his ability to recruit given the school's newfound standards in the post-Jarvis era. All things considered, he was probably about as good a coach/tactician as Jarvis was. And though it took him forever (again not entirely his fault), he did eventually bring in enough players to make a run at the NCAA tournament. I think there's a 50/50 chance he would have gotten there the same as Lavin did with that group of seniors.
SJU during the Roberts Years: F. This entry is here just to provide some context for Norm's grade. IMHO the program gets a resounding F from top to bottom during those years. The reason Norm gets a C- is because I think you have to measure him against the situation he was working with. It isn't like he was working with a Kentucky set of support or rules, or even a Duke set.
Lavin: B. Good recruiter. Good PR man for the program. Good motivator. Horrendous strategist and tactician. Took too many risks on players, failed to build a sustainable program. Failed to assemble a competent group of assistants to make up for his weaknesses. Got mediocre results (especially if you downgrade his first year, which I do). Possibly his most significant contribution was creating a mindset for the administration about spending money on the basketball program, since that budget can now be put to better use than paying Lavin and his crew. Ultimately left the program in better shape than he found it.
Mullin: Ask me in three years. Has to take all of the positive vibes and (and some tangible positive progress) and convert it to a program that has a definitive identity that carries through the years and results in a return to at least the Louie level of winning. He clearly has a plan, and there are high expectations. Have to wait to see the results, though. Fingers crossed.
we are sju
Active member
I am almost positive Fran recruited Jessie.
Mahoney only had the one good year coaching Louie's guys.
Lavin-B
Norm-I can't even give him an F he was that bad. He gets an X for the xanax fans had to take during his time here
Jarvis I give a C. He got an A for the 2 yrs with Frans players and then an F for the end.
Fran-B
Mahoney I give a C just because he recruited well
we are sju
Active member
Who is to say that Norm's first team would not have been a 15 win team with a McKillop or Hewitt or one of the other candidates at the time. He had a healthy Hill and Hamilton.
This concept of what is left behind is misleading!
Louie left Mahoney a tourney team correct?
Mahoney's best player played sporadically and terribly for 3 years under Louie.Theoretically Mahoney's two best left over players were Derek Brown and Shawnelle Scott. Were those two better than Hill and Hamilton?
Fran was left Felipe and Zendon and didn't make the tourney.
Yes Lavin was left Hardy and Brownlee, but they were Norm's 6th and 7th guys.
I agree 100%. Norm was one of the worst coaches in D1 history. If you gave him the Kentucky team he would'e ended up in the NIT. Jarvis I would down grade to a D because of the mess he left and still not sure how he botched the Russell Robinson recruitment. Major disappointment.
Jarvis 1st 2 years were amazing from my point of view as a fan. Those were 2 damn fun years ( pun intended )
No argument on his ending.
Norm didn't leave a tournament team. he left a team that Lavin got to the tournament. Zero percent chance Norm would have accomplished what Lavin did with the same roster.
With Lavin he did an adequate job. 1st year was my favorite ever for home games as a season ticket holder. 2nd year he had to start entirely over. I think his cancer set us back a lot but no excuses the endgame is results but it's not like the days with Norm when we couldn't even make our own damn conference tournament
He definitely didn't do what he needed to recruiting wise at the end. If Chris O and Sheed come back and we would have had Sampson and who knows what kids he would have gotten late then the cupboard isn't as bare as what people thought it might be.
In my opinion he still gets a B
The difference between your post and mine is that mine states facts and yours states what ifs and who's to says.
Norm's first team comprised in the main Hill, Hamilton, your favorite Gene Lawrence, Iona's Dexter Gray, Ryan Williams, and the universally reviled Cedric Jackson. Five of them were freshmen. How did Steve "B plus" Lavin do in the Big East with his freshman class that was ranked 5th in the country? Thirteen wins. You're free to believe that Norm's roster is a 15 win team in a 12 team BE that had 6 teams ranked in the top 25. Perhaps McKillop would have gotten 12 and 6 out of Tyler Jones and Nigel Roach. Who's to say what he might have gotten out of Lavin's crew. But we'll never know.
As you know I do not find exclamation points compelling! Anyway, it's not misleading. It's a fact. Facts are not misleading. You don't like the facts because they run afoul of your bias.
we are sju
Active member
But there are no facts to support my claim that a better coach would have done better because there is no way to prove it short of messing with the space time continuum. And I am very much against that. I have seen too many movies where it does not work out well in the end.
Seriously though, I think we can all agree that Norm was not a good coach. So wouldn't it be logical to expect a better coach to be more successful?
And back to my question. At the time would you trade Shawnelle Scott and Derek Brown for Lamont Hamilton and Showtime? And you can argue that of all the post Louie coaches, Fran was left with the most talent.
we are sju
Active member
After the fact, clearly Jarvis.
What I meant was going into the season with Felipe and Zendon, Fran had two established BE players. No other coach could definitively say that prior to the season.
Obviously I'm not arguing that Norm was a good coach. I don't care that you gave him an F. I care that you gave the other guy a B minus or whatever. That guy inherited a 25 win NCAA tournament team with three NBA players on it and left a 6 win team (Clark's) that turned into a 9 win team (Norm's). You want to call Norm's team a 13 win team for argument sake? Fine. Add the four wins that Steve "B plus" Lavin added to Norm's junior team. A competent coach would have won 13 games. So Jarvis was handed from 25 win team with 3 NBA players and handed off a 13 win team, on probation, down scholarships, unable to participate in the post season (even if) and facing the death penalty from Father Harrington, who was threatening to disband the basketball program, which was an embarrassment to the university.
That's not a B minus. That's not an above average coaching job. He would have been hard pressed to do worse.
I would not trade fun fave D Hill even if I could remember Derek Brown, which I cannot. I'd trade Hamilton for Donald Emanuel and a pair of sneakers.
GoldenLeaf
Well-known member
Mahoney--C
Fran--------C+
Jarvis-------F
Norm-------D-
Lavin-------C-
Fran--------C+
Jarvis-------F
Norm-------D-
Lavin-------C-