Criticism

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logen

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2023 $upporter
I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.
 
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Great post

Definitely needs time. After 20 plus years St. John’s hired a professional coach. An Ad and a new president. All positives

We all yearn for a winner. No doubt miss the days of a packed Carnesecca (alumni hall) arena through the 80’s. 90’s And briefly to start the 2000.
 
Thanks Logen, for your realistic assessment. Had a career of turning around businesses and departments. It is hard work too rebrand a long term s**thole and it takes time. There are many safer alternatives too SJU and that is a fact. Think Providence, Marquette and Seton Hall at this point, compare their cultures to ours right now. Anderson needs a chance, he has a track record, let him play it out.

Logen good post!!
 
It is unfair to grade any D1 coach before the end of their 4th season much less the start of their second. I am however guardedly optimistic that CMA is heading St. John’s in a forward direction.

What I am most optimistic about is that St. John’s has finally discarded its1950’s “Mom+Pop” mentality by hiring seasoned professionals with Cragg, Anderson, and its new President Shanley.

Anyone who is unaware of Shanley’s commitment to men’s basketball should listen to the interview which JSJ posted on the Players Lounge board where President Shanley stated “The image of St. John;s is tied up in hoops". President Shanley promoted winning basketball at Providence College and there is no reason to expect that he will not required a winning program at St. John’s.

Keep hope alive.
 
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[quote="Logen" post=407945]I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.[/quote]

Fair post Logen. Just a few thing I'd like to point out especially as it relates to critiquing recruiting:
1. Those 6 previous coached did not have trouble recruiting here, and did so right out of the gate. Even the 3 coaches who had never coached before.
2. Those 6 coaches also did not have trouble bringing in mostly quality kids. Many of whom stayed for 4 years.
3. While it's still early in CMA's tenure, we are now looking at his 4th recruiting cycle. I think that's a fair amount of time to question the level of kids being targeted.
4. Other then any coach's first recruiting class, criticism of recruiting in open game and an ongoing thing.
5. No one is saying that we have to recruit at the level of the Duke's and Kentucky's of the world, but we are going to have to recruit at the level of the PC's and SH's of the world, and that just hasn't happen yet.

This isn't an either/or situation. We can be supportive of of CMA , and still question whether or not our recruiting is good enough, use of TO's, substitution patterns, etc. Like Otis, I remain "cautiously optimistic". That's the best you're gonna get from me until I see the results on the court over a period of time.
 
[quote="Monte" post=407954][quote="Logen" post=407945]I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.[/quote]

Fair post Logen. Just a few thing I'd like to point out especially as it relates to critiquing recruiting:
1. Those 6 previous coached did not have trouble recruiting here, and did so right out of the gate. Even the 3 coaches who had never coached before.
2. Those 6 coaches also did not have trouble bringing in mostly quality kids. Many of whom stayed for 4 years.
3. While it's still early in CMA's tenure, we are now looking at his 4th recruiting cycle. I think that's a fair amount of time to question the level of kids being targeted.
4. Other then any coach's first recruiting class, criticism of recruiting in open game and an ongoing thing.
5. No one is saying that we have to recruit at the level of the Duke's and Kentucky's of the world, but we are going to have to recruit at the level of the PC's and SH's of the world, and that just hasn't happen yet.

This isn't an either/or situation. We can be supportive of of CMA , and still question whether or not our recruiting is good enough, use of TO's, substitution patterns, etc. Like Otis, I remain "cautiously optimistic". That's the best you're gonna get from me until I see the results on the court over a period of time.[/quote]

I think all reasonable thoughts are on the table, and no matter what anyone tries to convince themselves of publicly, the ability to recruit top notch talent to come here is still unanswered in everyone's mind. Right now our best roster recruits (Champ, Posh) were considered somewhat under the radar, and our best transfer (Dunn) came from a low ranking D1 team. Early on this season, we are coming to the realization that perhaps this isn't anything more than a 9th place conference team, so major talent must be on the way if we are to be an NCAA tourney team by CMA year 3 or 4.

It's more than fair to say let's wait, but the clock is ticking on 2021-2022 season without a top recruit or transfer.

For now though, I'm just trying to enjoy the season.
 
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Great post Logan and I agree with everything you said. I understand what Monte is saying also that the other coaches were able to bring in a certain quality of player right away. I disagree with Monte that this is CMA’s 4th recruiting cycle. He got here a year and half ago. He brought in Champagnie and the transfers to fill out the roster but I don’t count that class as he really had no time to really put anything together. This class here now with Posh, Cole etc. is really his first class and I think is an upgrade in talent. His second class with Pinzon, Traore and Stanley is his second class which definitely fills needs. The CMA’s he working on now I would consider his third class and we’ll see how it plays out. I think the reason why CMA hasn’t brought the quality of player that the other coaches have right away as some are referring too is that those coaches were just looking to recruit the highest ranked players they could regardless of style of play skill sets etc. where CMA is looking to recruit a certain type of player to fit a system. That makes it harder. We’ll see how it all plays out. I think you have to give CMA 4 or 5 years here to fix this mess. He’s not even done with his second season. Hell , didn’t Norm get six years here and he had no track record to speak of as a head coach. Neither did Mullin. Let’s just relax and let all this play out.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=407957][quote="Monte" post=407954][quote="Logen" post=407945]I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.[/quote]

Fair post Logen. Just a few thing I'd like to point out especially as it relates to critiquing recruiting:
1. Those 6 previous coached did not have trouble recruiting here, and did so right out of the gate. Even the 3 coaches who had never coached before.
2. Those 6 coaches also did not have trouble bringing in mostly quality kids. Many of whom stayed for 4 years.
3. While it's still early in CMA's tenure, we are now looking at his 4th recruiting cycle. I think that's a fair amount of time to question the level of kids being targeted.
4. Other then any coach's first recruiting class, criticism of recruiting in open game and an ongoing thing.
5. No one is saying that we have to recruit at the level of the Duke's and Kentucky's of the world, but we are going to have to recruit at the level of the PC's and SH's of the world, and that just hasn't happen yet.

This isn't an either/or situation. We can be supportive of of CMA , and still question whether or not our recruiting is good enough, use of TO's, substitution patterns, etc. Like Otis, I remain "cautiously optimistic". That's the best you're gonna get from me until I see the results on the court over a period of time.[/quote]

I think all reasonable thoughts are on the table, and no matter what anyone tries to convince themselves of publicly, the ability to recruit top notch talent to come here is still unanswered in everyone's mind. Right now our best roster recruits (Champ, Posh) were considered somewhat under the radar, and our best transfer (Dunn) came from a low ranking D1 team. Early on this season, we are coming to the realization that perhaps this isn't anything more than a 9th place conference team, so major talent must be on the way if we are to be an NCAA tourney team by CMA year 3 or 4.

It's more than fair to say let's wait, but the clock is ticking on 2021-2022 season without a top recruit or transfer.

For now though, I'm just trying to enjoy the season.[/quote]

As am I Beast. Not getting too high or too low. Looking for incremental improvement this year(NIT bid) and next(NCCA bid). Think those are reasonable expectations, especially with a proven coach at the helm. Just to be clear, I did not say this is his 4th recruiting class. I said we are looking at his 4th recruiting class. His 3rd class is pretty much complete.
 
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For me, the turning point in St. John's history was Pittsburgh. Although there were signs of stress on the program, that set St. John's basketball back a lot of years. Lavin had had 1 great recruiting class that mostly fell apart before the season started. After that, he brought in 2 good players with too much baggage. Mullin brought in Ponds and a bunch of Matt's transfers, none of whom became stars. Fran was our best recruiter in the last 25 years.

CMA has a great staff and works hard. He is not yet hitting recruiting home runs, and may never be able to. The issue for me is getting to the root of the recruiting problems, and stop blaming the coaches. The administration should be looking at the issues that affect a coach's ability to recruit. I would start with CA. Upgrading an arena that is a glorified high school gym is one place to start. SJU can't buy players, or even rent them. That puts the program at a disadvantage. So there has to be a change in the status quo to make St. John''s a more attractive option for 4 star high school seniors. Many kids do want to win and dance in March. We are stuck in a Catch- 22 of needing to win to attract players, and needing players good enough to win. A difficult position to be in.
 
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[quote="Mean Gene" post=407961]Great post Logan and I agree with everything you said. I understand what Monte is saying also that the other coaches were able to bring in a certain quality of player right away. I disagree with Monte that this is CMA’s 4th recruiting cycle. He got here a year and half ago. He brought in Champagnie and the transfers to fill out the roster but I don’t count that class as he really had no time to really put anything together. This class here now with Posh, Cole etc. is really his first class and I think is an upgrade in talent. His second class with Pinzon, Traore and Stanley is his second class which definitely fills needs. The CMA’s he working on now I would consider his third class and we’ll see how it plays out. I think the reason why CMA hasn’t brought the quality of player that the other coaches have right away as some are referring too is that those coaches were just looking to recruit the highest ranked players they could regardless of style of play skill sets etc. where CMA is looking to recruit a certain type of player to fit a system. That makes it harder. We’ll see how it all plays out. I think you have to give CMA 4 or 5 years here to fix this mess. He’s not even done with his second season. Hell , didn’t Norm get six years here and he had no track record to speak of as a head coach. Neither did Mullin. Let’s just relax and let all this play out.[/quote]

A Six year rebuild would mean CMA would be 65 before we sniff success. Generally tough to recruit beyond age 65 if your last name doesn’t start with a K. I don’t think anybody signed up for that. As I said in a different thread, I think we need to continue to show incremental improvement on the court in order to achieve recruiting success off the court. Without the former, I don’t see how we improve upon the latter. An eight or ninth place finish in conference this year does not reflect tangible improvement. I think it’s critical that we do better.
 
[quote="Ray Morgan" post=407965]For me, the turning point in St. John's history was Pittsburgh. Although there were signs of stress on the program, that set St. John's basketball back a lot of years. Lavin had had 1 great recruiting class that mostly fell apart before the season started. After that, he brought in 2 good players with too much baggage. Mullin brought in Ponds and a bunch of Matt's transfers, none of whom became stars. Fran was our best recruiter in the last 25 years.

CMA has a great staff and works hard. He is not yet hitting recruiting home runs, and may never be able to. The issue for me is getting to the root of the recruiting problems, and stop blaming the coaches. The administration should be looking at the issues that affect a coach's ability to recruit. I would start with CA. Upgrading an arena that is a glorified high school gym is one place to start. SJU can't buy players, or even rent them. That puts the program at a disadvantage. So there has to be a change in the status quo to make St. John''s a more attractive option for 4 star high school seniors. Many kids do want to win and dance in March. We are stuck in a Catch- 22 of needing to win to attract players, and needing players good enough to win. A difficult position to be in.[/quote]

CMA took over a troubled Arkansas program and immediately starting bringing in multiple top 100 players. He immediately showed incremental progress on the court and by year 4 had the Hogs dancing. If that kind of progress occurs here, I think most of our fan base will be satisfied. I know I will. But it all starts with the talent.
 
Give it a week, or at least until 9:30 PM tonight. If we're 3-1 a week from now this board will be the polar opposite of if we're 1-3 or 0-4.
 
[quote="Monte"
3. While it's still early in CMA's tenure, we are now looking at his 4th recruiting cycle. I think that's a fair amount of time to question the level of kids being targeted.
[/quote]

How exactly are we looking at his 4th recruiting cycle when he has been the coach for 21 months?
 
[quote="weathermannyc" post=407971][quote="Monte"
3. While it's still early in CMA's tenure, we are now looking at his 4th recruiting cycle. I think that's a fair amount of time to question the level of kids being targeted.
[/quote]

How exactly are we looking at his 4th recruiting cycle when he has been the coach for 21 months?[/quote]

His 3rd recruiting class is pretty much done, barring some transfer(s) out and late pick ups. So we are now "looking at" his 4th recruiting class. I realize that his 1st class was incomplete, just like most 1st year coach's' classes are.
 
Shu thread locked but will answer north

Let's face it north, if we just recfuit 2 and 3 star kids we'll only be good enough.
Yes I said my patience is shot but that has nothing to do with Anderson. It's the last 20 years of sju bball, hell my patience in general is shot. Yeah of course you thought I meant It's shot with cma.
who said I'm not willing to give cma a fair chance?

I'm not going to allow you to try and tell me that oh I have been so hard on Mike when I haven't. I said this year with covid-19 is anything but normal so I will give him a pass.
Bottom line though north is we need better recruiting starting next off season.
 
[quote="Logen" post=407945]I certainly do my share of criticizing but at this point in CMA’s tenure I try to stick to game comments, emphasis on try to. But the criticism of his recruiting to date is just beyond my understanding. He inherited a dumpster of a program from Mullin, who inherited a dumpster of a program from Lavin, who inherited as it turns out a built for one year success program from Roberts, maybe only because of the need for Dunlap to take a lead role. Behind that was a coach who made arrogance an art form and one with one foot out the door and the other on his zipper. Behind that was Louie’s successor, who was not up to the job.
So six failed coaches, some scandal mixed in and decades of mediocrity, and that is being kind. Putting the commuter school aspect and facilities aside, what on earth did people expect; that after one season of play and two recruiting cycles blue chip players were going to be knocking down the doors to come here? That with a culture of many players more concerned with impending pro careers than winning in college that SJU at this point in time would be the place to make that happen?
I am not sold on CMA’s style of play or in game coaching to date but I am sold on the man. IMO, he is just what SJU needed, bringing stability, professionalism and a history of success to a program that desperately needed all three. I understand success is subjective and will change from fan to fan but compared to what we have gone through since Louie retired CMA is Red Auerbach.
As for recruiting, we shall see, I have long held that SJU is not a realistic destination for the blue chip, one and done player and I still believe that. So my point is, and I said this with every coach we have hired, let it play out; let’s see where the program is two / three years from now. Certainly, not a new suggestion by any means. And advice frankly, I need to follow myself.[/quote]

Well said, Logan. No problem at all with people expressing criticism or concerns about recruiting, style of play or anything basketball related really as I consider that just part of being a fan and often those most critical are most passionate about the program's success. However definitive statements 1 game into Big East play in a shortened season about this staff's imminent failure due to recruiting, style, etc seem not only early but the reactionary impulse of a fanbase that's grown used to disappointment. Anderson and Cragg have nothing to do with the past. Let's see what they do.

And if you really don't think it's too early to criticize Anderson's recruiting or the ability for his team's to compete at the Big East level consider that this coach hasn't actually lost a game in the Big East tournament yet. Assuming you don't think that's because he's been dominate and an overwhelming success it probably means he literally hasn't had enough time to show either failure or success in a single season yet. The only St. John's team of his we've ever seen was playing it's best basketball down the stretch and they had a top 10 Creighton team on the ropes before that 2nd round game got called off.

I also have certain concerns about elements of recruiting and play (although it seems lesser than some) but this is by far the best I've felt about the program in awhile. Sure this season may disappoint but I'm not so sure this team doesn't come together for a fun run.
 
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[quote="Ray Morgan" post=407965]For me, the turning point in St. John's history was Pittsburgh. Although there were signs of stress on the program, that set St. John's basketball back a lot of years. Lavin had had 1 great recruiting class that mostly fell apart before the season started. After that, he brought in 2 good players with too much baggage. Mullin brought in Ponds and a bunch of Matt's transfers, none of whom became stars. Fran was our best recruiter in the last 25 years.

CMA has a great staff and works hard. He is not yet hitting recruiting home runs, and may never be able to. The issue for me is getting to the root of the recruiting problems, and stop blaming the coaches. The administration should be looking at the issues that affect a coach's ability to recruit. I would start with CA. Upgrading an arena that is a glorified high school gym is one place to start. SJU can't buy players, or even rent them. That puts the program at a disadvantage. So there has to be a change in the status quo to make St. John''s a more attractive option for 4 star high school seniors. Many kids do want to win and dance in March. We are stuck in a Catch- 22 of needing to win to attract players, and needing players good enough to win. A difficult position to be in.[/quote]

Upgrading the gym is NOT the priority at present. The rest of the athletic facilities need a lot of work, save for the practice court. If you go downstairs at CA, it's as if you entered a 40 year old time warp, except one that hasn't been maintained. Everything, the weight training room, the equipment room, the administrative offices, all need major upgrades. It's been pointed out to me that Cameron Indoor Stadium is basically a dump inside, and granted winning cures all. We don't have a Finneran waiting in the wings as Villanova did, ready to donate $22 million towards an upgraded arena. Our season ticket fan base is likely by far the worst in the Big East, and certainly an embarrassment for a city and alumni base our size, not to mention donations not even making a scratch in the construction of an area even if we wanted one.

Now if we were to win an NCAA championship.... winning cures all, including begetting winning.
 
Beast of the East set forth all the money problems at SJU distinctly which just illuminates the problems with the powers to be running the athletic programs at SJU. Sometimes you have to give a little to get a lot in return from possible donors and SJU won’t do it.
You would think that with the financial situation so desperate they would bend a little or even a lot to a potential donor.
 
Unlike former president "Suits" Harrington St. John's new President Stanley understands the importance of what a successful men's basketball team can do for a school which is precisely why he recruited funds to construct the $30M "Ruane Friar Development Center and Innovation Lab" at Providence College.

Below are some news articles with photos of the facility.

https://friars.com/facilities/ruane-friar-development-center-and-innovation-lab/27

https://friars.com/news/2018/9/29/m...dedicates-ruane-friar-development-center.aspx




.
 
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Just to clarify all the "facts" being thrown around on this thread:

1. According to 247sports, CMA has not brought in any two star recruits.
2. Class ratings below for the three CMA recruiting classes, showing improvement every year for a perennial 9th or 10th place team.
2019-2020 - 159
2020-2021 - 82
2021-2022 - 59
 
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