Creighton
- Thread starter LINY89
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I am not allowed back there lol...I have to go incognito. But thanks. I'm not special, I was just pointing out an overrated team. To think they were rated #13 by anyone just makes me want to barf. Louisville would beat them by 30. G'Town's defense would make McDermott shoot 30% and end up winning by 20. It's a 1 dimensional team...stop 1 player and you are well on your way to a W. I watch them a lot...he is all they look for. They may be 1st in FG% but look at who they faced. The pollsters need to get real and put this team in perspective. They are a shark in a pond full of guppies. Try being in the Atlantic ocean playing almost all sharks all the time i.e. G'Town, Nova, Cincy, UConn, Cuse, L'Ville, ND, etc.
Of course it was
Even my biggest naysayers have to admit what I said was fair as proven tonight
Look, as hard as it was, even I agreed with you that they were probably not the 13th best team in the country BEFORE this game, and that they just got there due to the vagaries of how folks vote each week. Teams need to lose for their rankings to go down and lose multiple times for it to truly affect them in a major way. Creighton has only lost 4 times, 3 on the road in conference, two of those to RPI top 42 teams. So they lost a conference road game to the RPI #42 team in the country who also has a win over ACC undefeated Miami. There's no such thing as a good loss but this is certainly not a bad one. You are right it's still not going to tremendously affect their ranking nor should it.
You want to talk about overrated how about Louisville losing three in a row or Kansas losing to #210 TCU. Just jumping to the same types of conclusions you do all the time.
FWIW plenty on these boards wanted Norm to get Greg Echenique, who's averaging 10/7 and 2 blocks per game, who went to Rutgers before transferring to Creighton. Their PG has a 3:1 a/to. As a team the shoot 51% from the field, 44% from 3, and 75% from the line. There's solid mid major talent on that team, not just one guy, and they have a chance to make some noise in the dance. More so than a lot of BE teams.
PS - Baldi better take notice as ISU will likely crush Iona at their Bracket Buster game.
Of course it was
Even my biggest naysayers have to admit what I said was fair as proven tonight
Look, as hard as it was, even I agreed with you that they were probably not the 13th best team in the country, just got there due to the vagaries of how folks vote each week. Teams need to lose for their rankings to go down and lost multiple times for it to truly affect them in a major way. But they lost a conference road game to the RPI #42 team in the country who also has a win over AAC undefeated Miami. There's no such thing as a good loss but this is certainly not a bad one. You want to talk about overrated how about Louisville losing three in a row or Kansas losing to #210 TCU. Just jumping to the same types of conclusions you do all the time.
PS - Baldi better take notice as ISU will likely crush Iona at their Bracket Buster game.
Ok I see what you are saying Indiana State is good but they destroyed Creighton by doing the one thing Joe said teams need to do, shut down McDermott. They blew them out by doing this. Joe is right on this one, Creighton is an overrated team.
Of course it was
Even my biggest naysayers have to admit what I said was fair as proven tonight
Look, as hard as it was, even I agreed with you that they were probably not the 13th best team in the country, just got there due to the vagaries of how folks vote each week. Teams need to lose for their rankings to go down and lost multiple times for it to truly affect them in a major way. But they lost a conference road game to the RPI #42 team in the country who also has a win over AAC undefeated Miami. There's no such thing as a good loss but this is certainly not a bad one. You want to talk about overrated how about Louisville losing three in a row or Kansas losing to #210 TCU. Just jumping to the same types of conclusions you do all the time.
PS - Baldi better take notice as ISU will likely crush Iona at their Bracket Buster game.
Ok I see what you are saying Indiana State is good but they destroyed Creighton by doing the one thing Joe said teams need to do, shut down McDermott. They blew them out by doing this. Joe is right on this one, Creighton is an overrated team.
I also agreed with Joe3 that at 13 they were overrated. Point is he thinks they'd come in last in the BE simply because they're a mid major and that STJ would run them out of the building with pure athleticism. They'd clearly be a mid level BE team and make STJ a very competitive game. They can run plays like the mid-majors the kids like to lose to and also have one of the top 10 players in the country. Head to head that would be a recipe for Redmen disaster.
But gosh, I'm glad you see what I'm saying except you don't.
Of course it was
Even my biggest naysayers have to admit what I said was fair as proven tonight
Look, as hard as it was, even I agreed with you that they were probably not the 13th best team in the country BEFORE this game, and that they just got there due to the vagaries of how folks vote each week. Teams need to lose for their rankings to go down and lose multiple times for it to truly affect them in a major way. Creighton has only lost 4 times, 3 on the road in conference, two of those to RPI top 42 teams. So they lost a conference road game to the RPI #42 team in the country who also has a win over ACC undefeated Miami. There's no such thing as a good loss but this is certainly not a bad one. You are right it's still not going to tremendously affect their ranking nor should it.
You want to talk about overrated how about Louisville losing three in a row or Kansas losing to #210 TCU. Just jumping to the same types of conclusions you do all the time.
FWIW plenty on these boards wanted Norm to get Greg Echenique, who's averaging 10/7 and 2 blocks per game, who went to Rutgers before transferring to Creighton. Their PG has a 3:1 a/to. As a team the shoot 51% from the field, 44% from 3, and 75% from the line. There's solid mid major talent on that team, not just one guy, and they have a chance to make some noise in the dance. More so than a lot of BE teams.
PS - Baldi better take notice as ISU will likely crush Iona at their Bracket Buster game.
Indiana State has proven it's a solid team, but at the end of the day it's still Indiana State. It was a MVC game. They now have 3 losses in their own conference. Any loss to an MVC team if you are expected to run away with that conference is bad IMO. If Creighton lost to Miami, then that's not a bad loss. Losing to Indiana State is definitely a bad loss...note that it wasn't just a loss...it was a POUNDING by 20. It was a game that screamed "overrated" for Creighton. Indiana State are not world beaters...they are a dangerous mid major and nothing more. I know they beat Miami, but that was before they were ranked I believe...if they played again Miami would crush them. Any loss this late in the season in a conference Creighton should run away in is terrible. You tend to overrate teams like Creighton a lot...how do they have a better chance in the tourney than teams like G'Town, Cuse, L'Ville, etc? That's just not true. Creighton or Indiana State may win a game then get blown out. Teams like G'Town can reach the Elite 8. It's a totally different level. That's why true mid majors almost never make it further than the first or second round and the sweet 16, elite 8, and final four teams are almost always exclusively power conference teams or the "juggernaut mid majors" (Butler, Gonzaga).
Creighton is just such an artificially ranked team. They have yet to be tested and it's nearly March. They have zero ranked wins, let alone against a ranked power conference team. Remove 1 player from the game and they are in deep doo doo. I just honestly cannot even think of a team that has done less than them to warrant such gaudy rankings consistently. There is absolutely 100% no doubt they should be off the top 25 after that loss. I still think they should have been knocked down to #21 ish after the Drake loss...now after a 20 pt loss to ISU, they need to be gone. There are so many much more deserving teams waiting in line to enter the top 25 and Creighton takes up a useless spot. Their fans have their ranking go to their head and they become so egotistical to the point of absurdity. Creighton fans honestly think they can consistently beat teams like G'Town, Duke, L'Ville, and Cuse. They honestly think they belong in that territory. That's why I love when they lose and root against them. The media and pollsters pump them full of hype but they really don't deserve it.
I know this might be apples and oranges but bear with me here: when I was at Marist, our women's basketball team was honestly like an unstoppable force in the MAAC. We went undefeated one year, and to lose even 1 MAAC game was a huge shock. I remember checking every Monday to see if they were ranked...we were undefeated late in the season with like 5 games to go and finally entered the poll at like #23. We lost 1 game to #4 Oklahoma (by like 3 points) or some other major ranked team, and got knocked out of the rankings right away. So coming from a small MAAC school, I see how hard it is not only to get ranked but to stay ranked. There is usually zero margin for error for mid majors. Creighton has a HUGE margin of error. They can lose 3 of their past 6 or whatever it has been and still be nearly a top 10 team...it's just absurd. This is part of the reason it annoys me so much.
Just a few things. Regardless of gender comparing the MAAC to the MVC is ridiculous. MVC is a highly competitive conference that'll send 3 teams this year and I believe sent four not that long ago, MAAC is a one or two bid league usually, this year one. Four different MVC schools have reached the Sweet Sixteen since Y2K. Every MVC school has been in the dance at least once since 1998 and all but two have won a game during that period. You don't know anything about the conference, which is understandable but is also the root weakness in your position. MVC is second only to the A-10 in recent mid major success in the dance. That is something that voters will consider.
PS I also guarantee you don't know a single Creighton fan so crushing them for their egotism made me laugh more that just a little.
Since multiple teams regularly go to the dance from the MVC teams will lose, usually on the road. So how can every loss be bad. The answer is they're not, except in YVHO. Two of those recent losses you're crying about are to teams that will dance, one of those teams is still ranked in the coaches poll. Only two bad losses all year if you count Boise, which the RPI doesn't by the way which makes it 1. Not a lot of other teams with that kind of resume outside the top 20. Just saying.
Now of course I don't think they have a better chance in the tourney than Louisville and Syracuse, never said that and not sure why you would. I'd put them on a par with GTown and Pitt though (remember I agreed with you that they were overrated at 13). And you're right, that's just MHO however it's one that's shared by seemingly all the writers, coaches and computers in the country where as per usual you're kind of out there on an island. PS if you think GTown has a good chance of getting to the Elite 8 you are simply not paying attention. Of course you also think UConn's a juggernaut.
Here's another ranking issue. Look at the writers that had them at 16. Yes they lost to In State, #17 lost to Providence, #18 lost to Michigan State, #19 lost to Colorado, #21 lost to Texas A&M. So it makes it harder for them to fall hard after a loss on the road to an NCAA team. You know? The Drake game was a bad loss in isolation but they're only bad loss since, well, last season. Voters are going to look at that as an aberration, not a pattern until it repeats.
We'll see in March how they do. I don't expect them to reach the Sweet 16. Doesn't mean they don't deserve to be ranked over teams with twice the number of losses.
PS I also guarantee you don't know a single Creighton fan so crushing them for their egotism made me laugh more that just a little.
Since multiple teams regularly go to the dance from the MVC teams will lose, usually on the road. So how can every loss be bad. The answer is they're not, except in YVHO. Two of those recent losses you're crying about are to teams that will dance, one of those teams is still ranked in the coaches poll. Only two bad losses all year if you count Boise, which the RPI doesn't by the way which makes it 1. Not a lot of other teams with that kind of resume outside the top 20. Just saying.
Now of course I don't think they have a better chance in the tourney than Louisville and Syracuse, never said that and not sure why you would. I'd put them on a par with GTown and Pitt though (remember I agreed with you that they were overrated at 13). And you're right, that's just MHO however it's one that's shared by seemingly all the writers, coaches and computers in the country where as per usual you're kind of out there on an island. PS if you think GTown has a good chance of getting to the Elite 8 you are simply not paying attention. Of course you also think UConn's a juggernaut.
Here's another ranking issue. Look at the writers that had them at 16. Yes they lost to In State, #17 lost to Providence, #18 lost to Michigan State, #19 lost to Colorado, #21 lost to Texas A&M. So it makes it harder for them to fall hard after a loss on the road to an NCAA team. You know? The Drake game was a bad loss in isolation but they're only bad loss since, well, last season. Voters are going to look at that as an aberration, not a pattern until it repeats.
We'll see in March how they do. I don't expect them to reach the Sweet 16. Doesn't mean they don't deserve to be ranked over teams with twice the number of losses.
I'm just curious as to why you think GTown doesn't have a chance in getting to the Elite 8. Although I wouldn't say they have a good chance at getting there (I would give maybe 2 schools a good chance of getting there), I would definitely say they are capable of it. After all their success so far in the conference, they also took Indiana to overtime on a neutral court in the Barclay's center. Again, I'm not predicting an elite 8 showing - but I'm also not willing to dismiss it.
To get top the Elite 8 they're going to have to get 3 teams to play ugly ball. I don't see it happening. They have one great player, Otto Porter, and a good system but they really can't score. Elite 8 is great team territory 95% of the time. They're not a great team. Very good, like Creighton
but not great.Sorry, you are right Austour...Creighton is Duke. The glorious MVC is up there with the Big East and ACC, and even when Creighton loses it's not bad!
This is what gets me annoyed...people have a double standard for Creighton and the MVC. Wichita State has tumbled, Indiana State has some nice wins, but they still have a mediocre record, and Creighton has lost something like 3 of their past 6 games against nonranked non-power conference teams. Their SOS was bad enough at 104...it's now 121 and falling fast. Just to put it in perspective...our SOS was just recently either 17 or 20 ish and will be closer to 10 or 14 by the end of the year. If that doesn't show the huge disconnect, I don't know what will. You give too much credit where it doesn't belong.
The A-10 is much better than the MVC...Butler, VCU, Xavier, St. Joe's, LaSalle, Temple, Dayton, Richmond, St. Louis, etc. they are STACKED. The MVC really has only 1 true contender and that's Creighton. Indiana State will basically have to come close to winning out to get an auto bid. They are only 15-8 (8-4). Wichita State completely fell off...they were overrated just like Creighton, got a nice ranking, and fell to pieces. Wichita State has a shot at the tourney but they will also have to really rack wins up as well. More realistically is that Creighton makes the tourney, Indiana State makes the NIT, and Wichita State is on the bubble. 8-4 in a mid major conference is not eye-popping. Usually mid majors need a very dominant conference record to get an at large and neither ISU nor Wichita have that right now. Creighton is the only clear tourney team. Even if they somehow get 3 bids, it's a lucky year for them then. Once McDermott leaves, ISU's magic ends, and Wichita goes back to being a baseball school, the MVC will be right back to 1 bid.
And please don't ever say "like Creighton" when talking about Georgetown. G'Town would chew up and spit out Creighton like the pretenders they are. Creighton is the PERFECT example of a good, not great team with a ridiculously weak schedule that boosts their record to appear to be a top 15 squad when they are really a #25-30 squad. This is a team that should be teetering in and out of the bottom of the rankings, not anywhere in the vicinity of Louisville. It makes me laugh just to see their names so close in the poll. SJ is 7-4 in the best conference in America with a 20 ish SOS. Creighton is 9-3 in the MVC with a 121 SOS. Let your eyes do the math.
This is what gets me annoyed...people have a double standard for Creighton and the MVC. Wichita State has tumbled, Indiana State has some nice wins, but they still have a mediocre record, and Creighton has lost something like 3 of their past 6 games against nonranked non-power conference teams. Their SOS was bad enough at 104...it's now 121 and falling fast. Just to put it in perspective...our SOS was just recently either 17 or 20 ish and will be closer to 10 or 14 by the end of the year. If that doesn't show the huge disconnect, I don't know what will. You give too much credit where it doesn't belong.
The A-10 is much better than the MVC...Butler, VCU, Xavier, St. Joe's, LaSalle, Temple, Dayton, Richmond, St. Louis, etc. they are STACKED. The MVC really has only 1 true contender and that's Creighton. Indiana State will basically have to come close to winning out to get an auto bid. They are only 15-8 (8-4). Wichita State completely fell off...they were overrated just like Creighton, got a nice ranking, and fell to pieces. Wichita State has a shot at the tourney but they will also have to really rack wins up as well. More realistically is that Creighton makes the tourney, Indiana State makes the NIT, and Wichita State is on the bubble. 8-4 in a mid major conference is not eye-popping. Usually mid majors need a very dominant conference record to get an at large and neither ISU nor Wichita have that right now. Creighton is the only clear tourney team. Even if they somehow get 3 bids, it's a lucky year for them then. Once McDermott leaves, ISU's magic ends, and Wichita goes back to being a baseball school, the MVC will be right back to 1 bid.
And please don't ever say "like Creighton" when talking about Georgetown. G'Town would chew up and spit out Creighton like the pretenders they are. Creighton is the PERFECT example of a good, not great team with a ridiculously weak schedule that boosts their record to appear to be a top 15 squad when they are really a #25-30 squad. This is a team that should be teetering in and out of the bottom of the rankings, not anywhere in the vicinity of Louisville. It makes me laugh just to see their names so close in the poll. SJ is 7-4 in the best conference in America with a 20 ish SOS. Creighton is 9-3 in the MVC with a 121 SOS. Let your eyes do the math.
By the way, just checked. I thought ISU was better than I just realized.
ISU:
-2 ranked wins (both of them only MVC teams not power conference)
-Beat Miami when they were not ranked.
-3 in conference losses to lower tier teams (5-7) (5-7) (2-10)
-Just beat a totally overrated Creighton team
Really they are relying on one game on their resume: the Miami win...Miami was not even ranked when they beat them, then they came out of nowhere to shoot into the top 10, and they took Indiana State for a ride to give them unearned credibility. I think there is a big difference in when you play teams. Playing Miami then and playing Miami now is totally different. For example, I think we would beat Asheville by 20 if we played them now. So don't say "oh it's the same team"...in terms of roster, then yes. But in terms of confidence and experience gained, no way.
I think ranked wins are much weaker when they come IN conference if you are a mid major with the exceptions being WCC and A-10 because they are by far the best and have plenty of teams who can play in major conferences. You are playing teams in the same competitive bracket instead of beating a ranked Duke, or Indiana which is way over their heads. Big difference there. Regardless, their Miami win is nice, but technically that was not a ranked win. Technically the only ranked wins they have are Wichita State which is no longer ranked and fell off, and Creighton who people are starting to realize was overrated anyway. ISU is a solid team, not good.
ISU:
-2 ranked wins (both of them only MVC teams not power conference)
-Beat Miami when they were not ranked.
-3 in conference losses to lower tier teams (5-7) (5-7) (2-10)
-Just beat a totally overrated Creighton team
Really they are relying on one game on their resume: the Miami win...Miami was not even ranked when they beat them, then they came out of nowhere to shoot into the top 10, and they took Indiana State for a ride to give them unearned credibility. I think there is a big difference in when you play teams. Playing Miami then and playing Miami now is totally different. For example, I think we would beat Asheville by 20 if we played them now. So don't say "oh it's the same team"...in terms of roster, then yes. But in terms of confidence and experience gained, no way.
I think ranked wins are much weaker when they come IN conference if you are a mid major with the exceptions being WCC and A-10 because they are by far the best and have plenty of teams who can play in major conferences. You are playing teams in the same competitive bracket instead of beating a ranked Duke, or Indiana which is way over their heads. Big difference there. Regardless, their Miami win is nice, but technically that was not a ranked win. Technically the only ranked wins they have are Wichita State which is no longer ranked and fell off, and Creighton who people are starting to realize was overrated anyway. ISU is a solid team, not good.
If we take away the histrionics, you're mostly right.
I agree with you about ranked wins IN conference. The only caveat is that ranked losses IN conference should also be discounted. And all of this applies to the BE as much as it does to the MVC.
I'm also glad we agree that the A10 is better than the MVC this year.
We'll just have to disagree about GTown, Creighton is the exact type of team they'd have trouble with. With that system they can beat a bunch of guys who are more athletes than hoops players far more easily than well coached teams. Then again we disagreed about UConn as well. That one I'm right on so let's see how it goes with GTown.
What I have a hard time getting over is that this is all about whether Creighton is ranked 16 or 22. Why either of us should care has eluded me. Have a good weekend.
I agree with you about ranked wins IN conference. The only caveat is that ranked losses IN conference should also be discounted. And all of this applies to the BE as much as it does to the MVC.
I'm also glad we agree that the A10 is better than the MVC this year.
We'll just have to disagree about GTown, Creighton is the exact type of team they'd have trouble with. With that system they can beat a bunch of guys who are more athletes than hoops players far more easily than well coached teams. Then again we disagreed about UConn as well. That one I'm right on so let's see how it goes with GTown.
What I have a hard time getting over is that this is all about whether Creighton is ranked 16 or 22. Why either of us should care has eluded me. Have a good weekend.
If we take away the histrionics, you're mostly right.
I agree with you about ranked wins IN conference. The only caveat is that ranked losses IN conference should also be discounted. And all of this applies to the BE as much as it does to the MVC.
I'm also glad we agree that the A10 is better than the MVC this year.
We'll just have to disagree about GTown, Creighton is the exact type of team they'd have trouble with. With that system they GTown can beat a bunch of guys who are more athletes than hoops players far more easily than well coached teams. If they forget how to score again against another good system they are doomed. Then again we disagreed about UConn as well. That one I'm right on so let's see how it goes with GTown.
What I have a hard time getting over is that this is all about whether Creighton is ranked 16 or 22. Why either of us should care has escaped me. Have a good weekend.
I agree with you about ranked wins IN conference. The only caveat is that ranked losses IN conference should also be discounted. And all of this applies to the BE as much as it does to the MVC.
I'm also glad we agree that the A10 is better than the MVC this year.
We'll just have to disagree about GTown, Creighton is the exact type of team they'd have trouble with. With that system they GTown can beat a bunch of guys who are more athletes than hoops players far more easily than well coached teams. If they forget how to score again against another good system they are doomed. Then again we disagreed about UConn as well. That one I'm right on so let's see how it goes with GTown.
What I have a hard time getting over is that this is all about whether Creighton is ranked 16 or 22. Why either of us should care has escaped me. Have a good weekend.