Cragg and the SJU “Culture”

[quote="NCJohnnie" post=336737]Paultzman wrote: Per JP Pelzman re Borman & SJU this morning

Now hearing it could be too big of a jump. Ed Pinckney and W. Kentucky assistant Marc Hsu still in serious play. As Eric Mangini used to say, it's a fluid situation

Any thoughts as to whether Pinckney & Hsu are possible replacements for Mitch & Matt respectively or is only Matt's role being replaced?[/quote]

With all this buzz out there, I am keeping this simple, we have a vacant recruiting position in key prospecting period. Fill that ASAP and deal with other slots as/if a vacancy arises. Greg could certainly stay, despite the NBA noise and I have no clue on Mitch moving back to his old spot at SA or otherwise. Certainly to your point, CM could be talking to folks about an potential opportunity based on moves he anticipates making or occuring.
 
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[quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=336728]Something I've noticed over the years being a SJU fan... whenever we hire someone new, or bring in a new recruit they're always so overhyped. Everyone on the boards, and twitter is praising it as a great coup/hire. Happened with Mullin, happened with Lavin, happened with countless recruits over the years (Keita and Dixon this year for example). Then it becomes apparent how much their talents/abilities were overblown.

While I'm hoping it's not the case, it could be the same thing with Cragg. Sure he's got a great background, and on paper it seems like he'll do great as an AD, but he's never actually been an AD before. Everyone thought the same thing about Mullin coaching wise, but guess what? He also never had been a coach before and very soon after it became apparent that he's not good at it.

I laugh when I see people say "Oh Cragg will never allow this this and this," but how do we know this exactly? He's never ran a program before. Maybe he will allow Mullin to do whatever he wants. I feel like people, on this board specifically, think Cragg is going to be a savior, but I think I'm gonna wait until at least after this year to decide if he is or not. He's still got a lot to prove. I hope he's as good as some of you seem to think he is.[/quote]

I don’t think that’s the case. I just think that fans are hoping we finally have a real AD running the show that will clean out the cesspool at SJU that has been making sports decisions seemingly forever. Cragg has a very good background and seems to have a great resume’. We all have to wait and see. I’m hoping he’s got the cojones to step forward and make strong executive decisions.

I was hoping Mullin would go but it doesn’t seem like that’s happening. To me, the talk about hiring Ed Pinckney is another sign that Mullin just wants his buddies around and this ship is headed in the wrong direction.

One poster said our main problem was roster management. That’s not the case. There’s lots more wrong than that. A terribly constructed staff, only one recruiter (who’s gone now), awful coaching and development, fractured team chemistry.... I could go on forever. Time to move on from the Mullin experiment....
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=336738][quote="NCJohnnie" post=336737]Paultzman wrote: Per JP Pelzman re Borman & SJU this morning

Now hearing it could be too big of a jump. Ed Pinckney and W. Kentucky assistant Marc Hsu still in serious play. As Eric Mangini used to say, it's a fluid situation

Any thoughts as to whether Pinckney & Hsu are possible replacements for Mitch & Matt respectively or is only Matt's role being replaced?[/quote]

With all this buzz out there, I am keeping this simple, we have a vacant recruiting position in key prospecting period. Fill that ASAP and deal with other slots as/if a vacancy arises. Greg could certainly stay, despite the NBA noise and I have no clue on Mitch moving back to his old spot at SA or otherwise. Certainly to your point, CM could be talking to folks about an potential opportunity based on moves he anticipates making or occuring.[/quote]

Mitch moving back to his old spot at his current salary is the equivalent of burning piles of cash. Or ESPN making Stephen A Smith as highly paid as he is.
 
Funny how Borman move might be too big a jump, but Mullin as HC and Richond / St. Jean as AC's were/are not.

We need the best person to bring or quickly build relations on recruiting end.

Borman or Hsu are way better options than Pinckney or current staff to recruit.

Move Richmond over and bring in 2 new bodies.
 
Pinckney certainly has coaching credentials and has been rumored before since Chris took over but I don't think another NBA guy is where we need to go in the basketball recruiting world.
 
[quote="MCNPA" post=336739][quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=336728]Something I've noticed over the years being a SJU fan... whenever we hire someone new, or bring in a new recruit they're always so overhyped. Everyone on the boards, and twitter is praising it as a great coup/hire. Happened with Mullin, happened with Lavin, happened with countless recruits over the years (Keita and Dixon this year for example). Then it becomes apparent how much their talents/abilities were overblown.

While I'm hoping it's not the case, it could be the same thing with Cragg. Sure he's got a great background, and on paper it seems like he'll do great as an AD, but he's never actually been an AD before. Everyone thought the same thing about Mullin coaching wise, but guess what? He also never had been a coach before and very soon after it became apparent that he's not good at it.

I laugh when I see people say "Oh Cragg will never allow this this and this," but how do we know this exactly? He's never ran a program before. Maybe he will allow Mullin to do whatever he wants. I feel like people, on this board specifically, think Cragg is going to be a savior, but I think I'm gonna wait until at least after this year to decide if he is or not. He's still got a lot to prove. I hope he's as good as some of you seem to think he is.[/quote]

I don’t think that’s the case. I just think that fans are hoping we finally have a real AD running the show that will clean out the cesspool at SJU that has been making sports decisions seemingly forever. Cragg has a very good background and seems to have a great resume’. We all have to wait and see. I’m hoping he’s got the cojones to step forward and make strong executive decisions.

I was hoping Mullin would go but it doesn’t seem like that’s happening. To me, the talk about hiring Ed Pinckney is another sign that Mullin just wants his buddies around and this ship is headed in the wrong direction.

One poster said our main problem was roster management. That’s not the case. There’s lots more wrong than that. A terribly constructed staff, only one recruiter (who’s gone now), awful coaching and development, fractured team chemistry.... I could go on forever. Time to move on from the Mullin experiment....[/quote]

I was accused of being in a "meltdown" by a certain poster...they should read this...lol
 
[quote="SJUNC" post=336743]Pinckney certainly has coaching credentials and has been rumored before since Chris took over but I don't think another NBA guy is where we need to go in the basketball recruiting world.[/quote]

He did spend four years as an assistant at Villanova. 2003-2007, which was when Jay Wright and company were starting to build the program. Certainly, Pinckney had to play a significant part in that.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=336707]Omg...some are predicting 20 wins next year with Mullin back and losing one of our best players ever? We haven't even had within 1 game of a .500 season in conference play with guys like LoVett, Ponds, Heron, etc. What makes you think we will do any better? The Big East sucked this past year and still we went 8-10. We got blown out a ton. That was with us as one of the most talented teams! Next year literally every other team except maybe DePaul or SHU will be significantly better. If we finished anywhere better than 8th I'd be absolutely shocked. As long as we have 2 no-show jobs stealing our money, this will continue. But some of you throw up your hands because his last name is Mullin and Mitch was pretty good 30 years ago or something.[/quote]

1. We finished one game away from .500 just this past season. “No, we were 8-10 that’s 2 games!” I’ll let you struggle with that one.

2. You keep saying the BE was terrible this year, there wasn’t a bad team in the conference. No great teams but there wasn’t an easy out any where to be found. The B10, ACC, Pac12, SEC, AAC all had more than 1 team worse than any team in the BE.

3. How is nova, losing their 2 far and away best players, going to be significantly better? How is gtown losing its best player going to be significantly better? We have 5 new players, we have young guys returning, we have starters returning, to act like we can’t improve while saying definitively that others will is nonsense. Well actually it’s just par for the course.
 
[quote="fordham96" post=336744][quote="MCNPA" post=336739][quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=336728]Something I've noticed over the years being a SJU fan... whenever we hire someone new, or bring in a new recruit they're always so overhyped. Everyone on the boards, and twitter is praising it as a great coup/hire. Happened with Mullin, happened with Lavin, happened with countless recruits over the years (Keita and Dixon this year for example). Then it becomes apparent how much their talents/abilities were overblown.

While I'm hoping it's not the case, it could be the same thing with Cragg. Sure he's got a great background, and on paper it seems like he'll do great as an AD, but he's never actually been an AD before. Everyone thought the same thing about Mullin coaching wise, but guess what? He also never had been a coach before and very soon after it became apparent that he's not good at it.

I laugh when I see people say "Oh Cragg will never allow this this and this," but how do we know this exactly? He's never ran a program before. Maybe he will allow Mullin to do whatever he wants. I feel like people, on this board specifically, think Cragg is going to be a savior, but I think I'm gonna wait until at least after this year to decide if he is or not. He's still got a lot to prove. I hope he's as good as some of you seem to think he is.[/quote]

I don’t think that’s the case. I just think that fans are hoping we finally have a real AD running the show that will clean out the cesspool at SJU that has been making sports decisions seemingly forever. Cragg has a very good background and seems to have a great resume’. We all have to wait and see. I’m hoping he’s got the cojones to step forward and make strong executive decisions.

I was hoping Mullin would go but it doesn’t seem like that’s happening. To me, the talk about hiring Ed Pinckney is another sign that Mullin just wants his buddies around and this ship is headed in the wrong direction.

One poster said our main problem was roster management. That’s not the case. There’s lots more wrong than that. A terribly constructed staff, only one recruiter (who’s gone now), awful coaching and development, fractured team chemistry.... I could go on forever. Time to move on from the Mullin experiment....[/quote]

I was accused of being in a "meltdown" by a certain poster...they should read this...lol[/quote]

I’m not in meltdown. I’m just getting old and wouldn’t mind seeing a decent team more than one season per decade. This mismanagement is atrocious, and frankly Mullin should be canned for losing our only two recruiters with no backup plan. Just read that Mack isn’t going to make it here. Let’s see how this board gets now that we have a horrible head coach, zero recruiters and not a single PG on the roster heading into next season. I’m done with Mullin. He had more than enough chances to build a good staff with multiple recruiters. He’s making millions to do this so his slack has run out imo.

Rock bottom is here again and now, we have the benefit of having to ride out Mullin’s contract until maybe we can see some sliver of hope again. This is what being a SJU fan is all about.
 
[quote="MCNPA" post=336764][quote="fordham96" post=336744][quote="MCNPA" post=336739][quote="PharmDJohnnie11" post=336728]Something I've noticed over the years being a SJU fan... whenever we hire someone new, or bring in a new recruit they're always so overhyped. Everyone on the boards, and twitter is praising it as a great coup/hire. Happened with Mullin, happened with Lavin, happened with countless recruits over the years (Keita and Dixon this year for example). Then it becomes apparent how much their talents/abilities were overblown.

While I'm hoping it's not the case, it could be the same thing with Cragg. Sure he's got a great background, and on paper it seems like he'll do great as an AD, but he's never actually been an AD before. Everyone thought the same thing about Mullin coaching wise, but guess what? He also never had been a coach before and very soon after it became apparent that he's not good at it.

I laugh when I see people say "Oh Cragg will never allow this this and this," but how do we know this exactly? He's never ran a program before. Maybe he will allow Mullin to do whatever he wants. I feel like people, on this board specifically, think Cragg is going to be a savior, but I think I'm gonna wait until at least after this year to decide if he is or not. He's still got a lot to prove. I hope he's as good as some of you seem to think he is.[/quote]

I don’t think that’s the case. I just think that fans are hoping we finally have a real AD running the show that will clean out the cesspool at SJU that has been making sports decisions seemingly forever. Cragg has a very good background and seems to have a great resume’. We all have to wait and see. I’m hoping he’s got the cojones to step forward and make strong executive decisions.

I was hoping Mullin would go but it doesn’t seem like that’s happening. To me, the talk about hiring Ed Pinckney is another sign that Mullin just wants his buddies around and this ship is headed in the wrong direction.

One poster said our main problem was roster management. That’s not the case. There’s lots more wrong than that. A terribly constructed staff, only one recruiter (who’s gone now), awful coaching and development, fractured team chemistry.... I could go on forever. Time to move on from the Mullin experiment....[/quote]

I was accused of being in a "meltdown" by a certain poster...they should read this...lol[/quote]

I’m not in meltdown. I’m just getting old and wouldn’t mind seeing a decent team more than one season per decade. This mismanagement is atrocious, and frankly Mullin should be canned for losing our only two recruiters with no backup plan. Just read that Mack isn’t going to make it here. Let’s see how this board gets now that we have a horrible head coach, zero recruiters and not a single PG on the roster heading into next season. I’m done with Mullin. He had more than enough chances to build a good staff with multiple recruiters. He’s making millions to do this so his slack has run out imo.

Rock bottom is here again and now, we have the benefit of having to ride out Mullin’s contract until maybe we can see some sliver of hope again. This is what being a SJU fan is all about.[/quote]

You know I was joking right Marcus....
 
[quote="Amaseinyourface" post=336747][quote="Mike Zaun" post=336707]Omg...some are predicting 20 wins next year with Mullin back and losing one of our best players ever? We haven't even had within 1 game of a .500 season in conference play with guys like LoVett, Ponds, Heron, etc. What makes you think we will do any better? The Big East sucked this past year and still we went 8-10. We got blown out a ton. That was with us as one of the most talented teams! Next year literally every other team except maybe DePaul or SHU will be significantly better. If we finished anywhere better than 8th I'd be absolutely shocked. As long as we have 2 no-show jobs stealing our money, this will continue. But some of you throw up your hands because his last name is Mullin and Mitch was pretty good 30 years ago or something.[/quote]

1. We finished one game away from .500 just this past season. “No, we were 8-10 that’s 2 games!” I’ll let you struggle with that one.

2. You keep saying the BE was terrible this year, there wasn’t a bad team in the conference. No great teams but there wasn’t an easy out any where to be found. The B10, ACC, Pac12, SEC, AAC all had more than 1 team worse than any team in the BE.

3. How is nova, losing their 2 far and away best players, going to be significantly better? How is gtown losing its best player going to be significantly better? We have 5 new players, we have young guys returning, we have starters returning, to act like we can’t improve while saying definitively that others will is nonsense. Well actually it’s just par for the course.[/quote]

So 8-10 in a down conference year with our most talented team in decades...is ok with you? The point is Mullin never even reached .500 in conference play. With a real OOC schedule we wouldn't have even been close to a bid. Maybe 16-17 wins with SHU's. Beating up midgets isn't impressive...beating up on guys your own size is. I realize other power programs have some cupcakes too, but our OOC was still among the weakest in major hoops. Nova has a top 5 if not top 3 class coming in. So yeah, no chance we are better. They won the conference again while rebuilding. The Big East was crapped on in the NCAA tourney. Practically everyone was blown out immediately except for Nova and they got blown out in the 2nd round. So no, the conference was not strong nationally. Like it or not, that's how conferences are judged. Also got crapped on in the B1G challenge. I love this conference but it was a down year for sure. G'Town has Akinjo, McClung, and others returning along with some huge bodies coming in. They will be good.
 
Yes, 20 wins - if Simon, Heron and Figgy return. And if Cam Mack retains his commitment. Two more incoming transfers and an upgrade at the vacant assistant position. The sort of thing that the Mets and Yankees do every year. Constant churning of personell.

Many of the attacks by fans (basically since the disappointment of Felipe Lopez) have been ad hominem attacks meant to continue negativity, and nothing else. Rarely do you ever hear a positive spin on things. It's in the fanbase DNA now. It's a problem that turns players and talent away. It's been going on for far too long and it ought to change.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=336772][quote="Amaseinyourface" post=336747][quote="Mike Zaun" post=336707]Omg...some are predicting 20 wins next year with Mullin back and losing one of our best players ever? We haven't even had within 1 game of a .500 season in conference play with guys like LoVett, Ponds, Heron, etc. What makes you think we will do any better? The Big East sucked this past year and still we went 8-10. We got blown out a ton. That was with us as one of the most talented teams! Next year literally every other team except maybe DePaul or SHU will be significantly better. If we finished anywhere better than 8th I'd be absolutely shocked. As long as we have 2 no-show jobs stealing our money, this will continue. But some of you throw up your hands because his last name is Mullin and Mitch was pretty good 30 years ago or something.[/quote]

1. We finished one game away from .500 just this past season. “No, we were 8-10 that’s 2 games!” I’ll let you struggle with that one.

2. You keep saying the BE was terrible this year, there wasn’t a bad team in the conference. No great teams but there wasn’t an easy out any where to be found. The B10, ACC, Pac12, SEC, AAC all had more than 1 team worse than any team in the BE.

3. How is nova, losing their 2 far and away best players, going to be significantly better? How is gtown losing its best player going to be significantly better? We have 5 new players, we have young guys returning, we have starters returning, to act like we can’t improve while saying definitively that others will is nonsense. Well actually it’s just par for the course.[/quote]

So 8-10 in a down conference year with our most talented team in decades...is ok with you? The point is Mullin never even reached .500 in conference play. With a real OOC schedule we wouldn't have even been close to a bid. Maybe 16-17 wins with SHU's. Beating up midgets isn't impressive...beating up on guys your own size is. I realize other power programs have some cupcakes too, but our OOC was still among the weakest in major hoops. Nova has a top 5 if not top 3 class coming in. So yeah, no chance we are better. They won the conference again while rebuilding. The Big East was crapped on in the NCAA tourney. Practically everyone was blown out immediately except for Nova and they got blown out in the 2nd round. So no, the conference was not strong nationally. Like it or not, that's how conferences are judged. Also got crapped on in the B1G challenge. I love this conference but it was a down year for sure. G'Town has Akinjo, McClung, and others returning along with some huge bodies coming in. They will be good.[/quote]

Mike I heard you on the seeing Red podcast (at least thought it was you but could be wrong) earlier in the year and I was impressed with how you came off. On here you speak in such negative absolutes that it makes it impossible to look past your biases.

Can’t you see the difference in just these two posts of yours? The big east sucked - vs BE was not strong nationally. Every team but SH and DePaul will be SIGNIFICANTLY better - vs there’s a chance the BE is tougher next year.

My advice, and feel free to ignore it, is to incoproate some brevity and some middle ground.
 
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[quote="Brian W." post=336780]Yes, 20 wins - if Simon, Heron and Figgy return. And if Cam Mack retains his commitment. Two more incoming transfers and an upgrade at the vacant assistant position. The sort of thing that the Mets and Yankees do every year. Constant churning of personell.

Many of the attacks by fans (basically since the disappointment of Felipe Lopez) have been ad hominem attacks meant to continue negativity, and nothing else. Rarely do you ever hear a positive spin on things. It's in the fanbase DNA now. It's a problem that turns players and talent away. It's been going on for far too long and it ought to change.[/quote]

I completely agree with this. This fan base is completely unreasonable all the time, always complaining. If it isn't wanting an NCAA tournament game win or to make the semi-finals in its own freakin conference tournament sometime during this Millennium, it's something else.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=336707]Omg..The Big East sucked this past year and still we went 8-10. We got blown out a ton. [/quote]

I pared down the post to this because:

1) I don't know many guys who use OMG. Sorry just thought it was funny/
2) The Big East was competitive top to bottom this year, the most parity in its history, but I agree not strong at the top of conference. We finished 1 game out of third place at 8-10, and except for a horrific call vs. Seton Hall, we would have finished in third place at 9-9 and their wonderful coach Willard at 8-10.
3) In my book a blow out would a loss by 20 points or more - 7 possessions in college. That would be Marquette in the BET (who we beat twice), and Duke. That's it. Another over dramatization.

I'm not happy about the way we finished our season. I dropped a small fortune going to the BET and Dayton. In fact I feel pretty rotten about how it all ended. I was in Charlotte and Denver, and Lexington for the Final Four among other places - it all feels like crap - even going to the Final Four and losing the way we did.

But at some point, you have to reel it back, and remember how good it felt to beat GTown on their court, Nova at MSG when they were ranked and still the reigning champs. You have to balance it out by saying in a must win game we beat a Seton Hall team at MSG without Heron. I suspect it's human nature to dwell on the negatives - hence all the name calling of Clark for having the audacity to go ice cold at a critical juncture of the season, or at Heron for not putting up stud numbers that we expected, or Keita for not being the Beast the staff referred to him as.

As a small mob then, we want to drive yet another coach out of Dodge - pick your poison Mahoney (lucky enough to escape the barrage of social media insults), Jarvis, Roberts, Lavin, now Mullin. All of them suck, all of them horrible people. all of them stealing money from SJU and failing to deliver what we expect and deserve, no REALLY DESERVE, no DEMAND. A winner. We scream for blood and eventually we will get it. Demonize, insult, whine, moan - all mild to moderate forms of bullying to make ourselves feel better, because we NAILED it once again. Easy to encapsulate - the school sucks, they are cheap, they should spend more, they are stupid and incompetent, anyone who supports the school is stupid and incompetent, the coaches are lazy, stupid, stubborn, incompetent. If you look at the season with any modicum of balance and post it here, the mob will attack also.

Season over. Mullin will be back unless he quits. Next year can be satisfying, or another disappointment. It may be one or another or somewhere in between. Looie had it right - it's time to put the balls away.
 
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And time for posters to stop pretending they are the George Steinbrenner of St. John's. Heads will roll posturing builds nothing.
 
[quote="fuchsia" post=336841]And time for posters to stop pretending they are the George Steinbrenner of St. John's. Heads will roll posturing builds nothing.[/quote]

Fair enough, but build something on a bad foundation and its going to collapse sooner rather than later. Other than the gravitas of Mullin's name, have you seen ANYTHING that you can point to as proof we have an adequate foundation in place to build a program on? I've got a dozen or more things I can point out to prove we don't. Would love to have a reason for optimism.
 
[quote="Marillac" post=336667][quote="we are sju" post=336665]

Was close. What was the best team since Elite 8 team? Either The next year team that got upset in 2nd round, Hatten team, Lavin's 1st or last team or this past years team. Not exactly picking the best Yankee team since 1961[/quote]

Lol I know. We’ve won one game in the tournament in the 20 years since. He makes it seem like people expected them to ulproot multiple legit sweet 16 finishes.[/quote]

Well since that elite eight team 5 have made the actual field of 64, this team did not. 6 have had .500 or better records in conference (and almost always in a stronger conference), this team did not. 4 teams were ranked for more than 1 week, this team was not.

Were they better than any of those teams? Almost assuredly not. Did they meet or exceed expections? Most certainly not.

If you want to say that this team had the potential be be the best team since the elite eight that might be fair but you'd also have to say they failed miserably at attaining that status.

I feel I've been let down by STJ teams more often than not but this year was the worst. I blame the adult leadership.
 
[quote="SJUFAN2" post=336846][quote="fuchsia" post=336841]And time for posters to stop pretending they are the George Steinbrenner of St. John's. Heads will roll posturing builds nothing.[/quote]

Fair enough, but build something on a bad foundation and its going to collapse sooner rather than later. Other than the gravitas of Mullin's name, have you seen ANYTHING that you can point to as proof we have an adequate foundation in place to build a program on? I've got a dozen or more things I can point out to prove we don't. Would love to have a reason for optimism.[/quote]

No one is denying that the season was a disappointment. No one is posturing that our staff deserves coach of the year or anything close to that even in our conference. No one denies we played like garbage. You don't have to point out those dozen things. You and others have done it again and again and again. Anyone who knows basketball can see those things.

So now I'll tell you what you didn't see or feel:

When you walk into an arena for the NCAA's, it dawns upon you that your team is one of 68 teams playing for the national championship. I said this at the top notch pre-game that SJU hosted for students and alumni at the team's hotel before the game - said it to the very accessible Cragg, and repeated it to the very accessible Dr. Gempeshaw. 5 years earlier, walking up to the arena in Charlotte, they have this huge outdoors scoreboard where they posted every matchup for the NCAA's and I saw St. John's there. This is what we achieved this year, we go to the dance and played for the national championship in the only tournament that matters.

Thirty four years ago, waiting to enter Rupp arena, we watched a red carpet parade of some of the greatest coaches in history enter the arena (coaches had a meeting at the Final Four). All of a sudden us being at the Final Four - Bobby Knight, Al McGuire, Ray Meyer, John Wooden all strolled in to watch St. John's play for the championship, something that eluded all of those coaches who were active Yea, it was a long time ago and not relevant, but if you ever experienced that you wouldn't forget it - ever.

We got to the dance limping and sputtering, and didn't perform, not even a lick. We all know that. But if you think that firing Mullin will fix it, I doubt it. More than 25 years of frustration with few highlights, and we know just how tough it is to stay in the mix. Just look at all the programs once notable who are struggling - there are a ton of them - more than the dozen things you saw wrong with our team.

Why don't you do yourself a favor and try to come up with a dozen things that were right about this team. IF you are balanced it shouldn't be hard. If it is hard then you probably proved a point to yourself that you won't get.
 
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