Coach
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beast of the east
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I don't care what sport we are talking about. It's hard to find a single good thing to say about anyone when you are getting your ass kicked. Hooper was getting roasted on here even though he hardly saw action until he came in and drained three 3's. All of a sudden, the bitching shifted that he should be getting major time. In five minutes he went from not being a Big East player to a potential key to the offense.
Hopefully this is the rock bottom for the team. In basketball, you can turn it around quickly. I remember reading Bill Bradley's excellent book, "The Values of the Game". Highly recommended for anyone who has wasted a good part of his life playing or watching guys trying to throw a round ball into a peach basket. Early on with the Knicks, he would blow fits after playing poorly in a loss, took it home with him, and was still with him the next day. After a couple of weeks of this DeBusschere pulled him aside and said, "Look it's a long season. You'll never last in this league if you can't let it go after a bad game, and just get ready for the next one.' Bradley said it was that advice that saved his career.
Four year players in a big time program have about 100 games that for most of them will be the biggest games of their lives. 100 games - that's it. Then its getting recognized at MSG or CA as a guy who used to play here. If you played well, you are somewhat of a celebrity. I recognized George Johnson walking past me in the rotunda at the last MSG game. I said to my daughter, "Boy, that guy could play." At that moment a guy in his forties yelled out, "George! George Johnson" in a familiar tone as if he knew him. Johnson looked around to see which old friend was calling his name. The guy approached quickly, and Johnson had a puzzled look on his face when he didn't recognize the guy who called him. The guy quickly shook George's hand, and exclaimed excited to his own young son, "This guy was one of the greatest players who ever played at St. John's. An NBAer. It's an honor to meet you."
It's easy to blame the coach. Maybe deservedly so. Was it Casey Stengel who first said "You can't fire the players"? It wasn't Lavin throwing up airballs, or hitting the front of the iron yesterday. It wasn't Lavin turning the ball over with frequency, or making Smith-Rivera look like the second coming. It was Lavin starting a walk on against a major conference foe, and that was a mistake. Almost everything thing else was about the team totally sucking from end to end. It was about your top three scorers totally something like 8 points until very late in the game. It was about Georgetown slicing up your interior defense as if we were defending the perimeter (we weren't). It actually was as if the entire team was in a drinking contest with MJMAHERJR before the game - and losing.
I'm with the minority opinion of Marillac, who pegged these two games as losses. I do think we will beat Nova, or at the very least show up to play. The best thing about totally getting your ass kicked is that it still counts as only one loss. Some pretty good teams have looked absolutely horrific - even in the NBA finals - and rebounded to win a championship. We simply are obviously not a championship contender, but don't be shocked if we are on the bubble when the season ends. It's hard to envision this morning, but crazier things have happened.
Hopefully this is the rock bottom for the team. In basketball, you can turn it around quickly. I remember reading Bill Bradley's excellent book, "The Values of the Game". Highly recommended for anyone who has wasted a good part of his life playing or watching guys trying to throw a round ball into a peach basket. Early on with the Knicks, he would blow fits after playing poorly in a loss, took it home with him, and was still with him the next day. After a couple of weeks of this DeBusschere pulled him aside and said, "Look it's a long season. You'll never last in this league if you can't let it go after a bad game, and just get ready for the next one.' Bradley said it was that advice that saved his career.
Four year players in a big time program have about 100 games that for most of them will be the biggest games of their lives. 100 games - that's it. Then its getting recognized at MSG or CA as a guy who used to play here. If you played well, you are somewhat of a celebrity. I recognized George Johnson walking past me in the rotunda at the last MSG game. I said to my daughter, "Boy, that guy could play." At that moment a guy in his forties yelled out, "George! George Johnson" in a familiar tone as if he knew him. Johnson looked around to see which old friend was calling his name. The guy approached quickly, and Johnson had a puzzled look on his face when he didn't recognize the guy who called him. The guy quickly shook George's hand, and exclaimed excited to his own young son, "This guy was one of the greatest players who ever played at St. John's. An NBAer. It's an honor to meet you."
It's easy to blame the coach. Maybe deservedly so. Was it Casey Stengel who first said "You can't fire the players"? It wasn't Lavin throwing up airballs, or hitting the front of the iron yesterday. It wasn't Lavin turning the ball over with frequency, or making Smith-Rivera look like the second coming. It was Lavin starting a walk on against a major conference foe, and that was a mistake. Almost everything thing else was about the team totally sucking from end to end. It was about your top three scorers totally something like 8 points until very late in the game. It was about Georgetown slicing up your interior defense as if we were defending the perimeter (we weren't). It actually was as if the entire team was in a drinking contest with MJMAHERJR before the game - and losing.
I'm with the minority opinion of Marillac, who pegged these two games as losses. I do think we will beat Nova, or at the very least show up to play. The best thing about totally getting your ass kicked is that it still counts as only one loss. Some pretty good teams have looked absolutely horrific - even in the NBA finals - and rebounded to win a championship. We simply are obviously not a championship contender, but don't be shocked if we are on the bubble when the season ends. It's hard to envision this morning, but crazier things have happened.
southernjohnny2
Member
The thing I think this team does well is press, when they press for real. I don't like so much when they just show it, and back off. I know you need to make shots to really press, and that is the problem. We are very athletic, and long. The focus now needs to shift to how do we make shots? are we a mid range shooting team, where D-Lo and Greene do well, are we a bombing team, which Hooper, and Max would need to shoot, or are we going to play inside out, or dribble drive..Lavin makes to many adjustments to focus on what the other team is doing, and to match up with them, why not force teams to match up with us? Never take away from your strength and make that a weakness ! Cuse doesn't change its defense because they will be playing a good outside shooting team, why does Lavin change what we are doing to match up with the opponent all the time? I would love to see constant screening and motion by our team, instead of standing around watching the player with the ball, When Max was in the game, he had to wave teammates around, to make them move, seemed like they just wanted to stand there. I don't blame Lavin for playing walk ons, you play with who is playing hard in practice. I saw Rysheed, Phil Greene, and Jakarr all standing around watching the guy with the ball, waiting to see if they would get the ball. Spacing guys, you cant be standing right next to Max, how about set a screen for him? or space the floor...how about weak side cuts?
beast of the east
Active member
I have a friend who was a career HS basketball coach. He loved to say, "The real teaching happens in the gym." Teaching basketball to athletic guys could run and shoot, but didn't know the game. Teaching life skills to kids, many of whom were raised in broken or single family homes. A decade ago, Jarvis was excoriated for declaring he was a teacher in the midst of losing his job. There's a reality to it, though.
If Lavin gives up on these kids, the way most of our fans seem to have, he deserves to be shown the door (which won't happen), or fall on his sword and resign (not beyond the realm of possibility). Just a few days ago, we were glorifying the new and improved Harrison, drooling over Jordan's glimpses of brilliance, declaring Obekpa can't miss NBAer, on and on. You're never as bad as the way you look at your worse (basketball or otherwise - would you want to be judged on your worst moments? I wouldn't) And you definitely aren't as good as your best moments (basketball or otherwise).
I hope you are shocked if we get that far. I'll buy you a beer if we make it. One thing I'd guarantee though- there will be some moments this season that will make us scratch our heads and wonder how they could have looked as bad as yesterday. It could come as early as next Saturday, I don't know. But it will come.
My question is this really an ncaa team? We are athletic but a collection of one trick ponies. We have no all around basketball players with maybe Harrison being the exception. Would a better coach have this as a sweet 16 team? I'm not so sure. I think a good coach could probably eek more wins than Lavin is this year, but I think this is a flawed roster. My biggest problem is player development. Lavin has 17 games to prove his worth.
Marillac, I'll agree with you that the St. John's fan base tends to overreact in times like these. But something about this situation just feels different. The fact of the matter is the Big East scheduling team did us no favors by putting us on the road against Xavier and Georgetown and then coming back home to Villanova. Those are 3 very difficult games to start off with in conference play. That being said, this is no longer a young team. Sanchez and GG are seniors. D'lo, PG IV, Sir'Dom, and Branch are juniors. These guys should be experienced enough to know what it takes to win. And when you see an experienced team down 42-16 at halftime to a very mediocre Georgetown squad, yes it is very alarming.
That isn't even taking into an account the starting lineup that Lavin put out there yesterday. No offense to Ndiaye and Balamou, but wtf was that all about? Clearly, Steve was trying to send a message to certain guys. However, let's keep in mind that these are Lavin's players. He recruited all of them. If they are lacking work ethic, that is directly on his shoulders. He's the guy who decided all of them were good fits for his team. And to pull that BS in an important conference game against a weaker Georgetown team is honestly a slap in the face to our fan base.
I think lavin is beginning to lose the locker room... This team is not close to a tourney team at all!!!! If this continues like this I expect to see a mass exodus of players and a coaching change! Our whole program is on the brink.... Bad year look for another complete rebuild.. Ok to NCAA bubble more of the same
beast of the east
Active member
Maybe you are right. But he was roasted here for suspending Harrison, and Harrison has been a warrior this season and publicly has thanked Lavin and his teammates for giving him another chance, owning up to blame for his own problems.
Maybe he is winning the locker room. These guys have a limited shelf life. Either you do it Lavin's way, or sit. I know if I had a starter's mentality and my butt was stuck to the bench, I'd be ready to go through a wall to prove that SOB wrong. I wouldn't be so quick to think Lavin is selling the whole season out based on some questionable starting lineups.
Class of 72
Active member
Beast, this precarious player situation with the odd lineups goes to the heart of Lavin's only "perceived" strenght, which was recruiting! In his first class he played the used car salesman role perfectly. Sold them on a dream that has become a nightmare. He threw darts against a national recruiting map and took the guys regardless of strengths and weaknesses. His recruiting has been as flawed as the players he has signed and unless you have first class assistants to develop flawed players they will stagnate. That is what has occurred. The pieces do not fit! They are classic misfits.
I wouldn't say the players are misfits.I think he should recruit a more balanced team, instead of mostly all long athletes. The first recruiting class didn't have a true PG, nor a shooter, w the possible exception of DLO. I also believe the players are good and have not been used properly.
Class of 72
Active member
They are misfits in the sense that they do not fit together well as playing pieces in the puzzle that is Lavin's game plan(s).
"Should have" is now "Could have". There are no recruits this year and last years star recruit may be at a breaking point.
The recruiting vultures already have the ear of the 2015 class and when you speak of PGs, this year we have two, both nationally recruited and both flopping in Lav's dog house while walk ons start.
That is not a good selling point, even to the lowliest of recruits.
beast of the east
Active member
St. Johns vs. Syracuse
02/10/13 at Syracuse * TV Syracuse, N.Y. (Carrier Dome) L, 77-58
02/04/12 vs. Syracuse * TV New York, N.Y. (Madison Square Garden) L, 95-70
01/12/11 vs. Syracuse * TV New York, N.Y. (Madison Square Garden) L 76-59
03/10/11 vs. Syracuse (BIG EAST Quarterfinals) TV New York, N.Y. (Madison Square Garden) L, 79-73* DJ was injured. we were never in this game.
02/24/09 vs. Syracuse * TV New York, N.Y. (Madison Square Garden) L, 87-58
12/15/13 vs. Syracuse TV New York, N.Y. (Madison Square Garden) L, 68-63
On December 15th this year we went up against Syracuse, and it was no fluke. We played them toe to toe, and then had a few bad possessions and lost. If they can play like this against BE competition, they will beat Nova, and they will be hard to beat by anyone. You want to think they suck - be my guest. But after 5 previous seasons of getting trounced by Syracuse (annually our toughest opponent), there is reason for hope, and it isn't misplaced.
beast of the east
Active member
Ultimately it's Lavin's job to get these guys to play well together. It's what they pay him the big bucks for, and I'm sure he'd agree with that.
westchesterjoe
Active member
No karma or, soup for you, Beastie! I disagree, this year's Syracuse game was there for the taking, despite the every game hole this team invariably digs for itself.. A team on the rise, a well coached team would have played the last 5 minutes much better than we did. We had the Orange on the Ropes and resorted to the worst one on one basketball that a team should play.. Harrison chucked and clanked as he often does and Sampson played like it was all Orange on the COURT, except him. Throw in the missed free throws at crun
ch time and it added up to a loss in a game we should have won in year 3 of these players.
I like many , thought we lost that game rather than Syracuse winning it. The Xavier and G'town games speak for themselves.