Cluess
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RedmanMike
Well-known member
[quote="Beast of the East" post=340754][quote="buckethead" post=340704]I still don't think he has the recruiting power and this only reinforces it. Aside from a 3* in 2011 and Norvel Pelle in 2012 he hasn't recruited over a 2*. His last recruit over a 2* was 7 years ago. Yes he is only at Iona. Yes he seems like he coach really well. If we gave him this years group to play over with again I believe that he would have gotten further. He doesn't have that option and although he is well known in NYC few people have kept the top NYC kids home to play at SJU. I see nothing that indicates TC is the guy to do this.[/quote]
Cmon this is silly. a 4* doesn't want to play for a mid major when bigger conference schools are calling. The only mid major coaches that become white hot commodities are guys who get lucky with one or two kids and make a little noise or manage to get their teams ranked or through the first weekend of the tourney.[/quote]
That's the point. Jay Wright is one of the best coaches in college basketball and the gold standard of the BE. But if he doesn't stumble upon Speedy Claxton (and then keep the big boys at bay once Claxton committed) he never gets to the Dance twice with Hofstra. And Jay Wright never won a game in the Dance - but he rode one great player to a short period of great success at a mid-major. Then he moved up. Lots of great high major coaches started that way.
Cmon this is silly. a 4* doesn't want to play for a mid major when bigger conference schools are calling. The only mid major coaches that become white hot commodities are guys who get lucky with one or two kids and make a little noise or manage to get their teams ranked or through the first weekend of the tourney.[/quote]
That's the point. Jay Wright is one of the best coaches in college basketball and the gold standard of the BE. But if he doesn't stumble upon Speedy Claxton (and then keep the big boys at bay once Claxton committed) he never gets to the Dance twice with Hofstra. And Jay Wright never won a game in the Dance - but he rode one great player to a short period of great success at a mid-major. Then he moved up. Lots of great high major coaches started that way.
JohnnyFever
Active member
[quote="Marillac" post=340752][quote="Mike Zaun" post=340739]Why berate Cragg? He has done a great job here so far and has pulled all the right levers so far. We missed out on Hurley but that's only because we can't afford him even with Repole helping apparently. We will never win bidding wars with F5 schools. No one has technically been announced yet, but even if it's Cluess we have to give him a chance. Believe in Cragg until proven otherwise. I believe Paultz said it best when he said Cragg won't perform miracles but he will do the best he can or something similar. Hurley would've been a miracle because we don't have money to compete with ASU.[/quote]
Why berate Mullin? Stop with your selective protections.
Cragg paid four mill to buyout a coach that made the tournament just to get kicked in the nuts by Hurley and then scramble to Cluess only to find that his buyout is two mill! Six mill for a slight improvement for a school that can’t even match a second tier university’s salary for its third most popular sport.
It’s a clown show.[/quote]
Just remember, you're the one backing the guy who went 32 games below .500 and didn't bother to tell his players he was leaving in person...or recruit...or coach...or do much of anything. I'm backing the guy that presumably forced that guy out. I'd say my guy is better than your guy right now. Mullin already made tons of stupid mistakes and caused enough damage. Cragg hasn't made any clear mistake yet. Hurley was out of our price range. That's not on the AD. Let's see who we hire first before butchering Cragg who has zero track record of bad decisions for now.
Why berate Mullin? Stop with your selective protections.
Cragg paid four mill to buyout a coach that made the tournament just to get kicked in the nuts by Hurley and then scramble to Cluess only to find that his buyout is two mill! Six mill for a slight improvement for a school that can’t even match a second tier university’s salary for its third most popular sport.
It’s a clown show.[/quote]
Just remember, you're the one backing the guy who went 32 games below .500 and didn't bother to tell his players he was leaving in person...or recruit...or coach...or do much of anything. I'm backing the guy that presumably forced that guy out. I'd say my guy is better than your guy right now. Mullin already made tons of stupid mistakes and caused enough damage. Cragg hasn't made any clear mistake yet. Hurley was out of our price range. That's not on the AD. Let's see who we hire first before butchering Cragg who has zero track record of bad decisions for now.
[quote="Marillac" post=340758][quote="Paultzman" post=340753][quote="MCNPA" post=340743][quote="Paultzman" post=340717]Is this the “lock” many have stated? My gut says there is more to the process.[/quote]
This mean we have another actual candidate, or we just can’t get things done with Cluess?[/quote]
No clue on latter and just will be a bit surprised if Cragg closes process right now to hire Cluess. Strictly my gut & obviously have been wrong before.[/quote]
He would have if the buyout wasn’t two mill.[/quote]
Disagree
This mean we have another actual candidate, or we just can’t get things done with Cluess?[/quote]
No clue on latter and just will be a bit surprised if Cragg closes process right now to hire Cluess. Strictly my gut & obviously have been wrong before.[/quote]
He would have if the buyout wasn’t two mill.[/quote]
Disagree
[quote="MainMan" post=340751][quote="Section9" post=340726][quote="Johnnie Drama" post=340712][quote="MainMan" post=340708][quote="SJU61982" post=340705]
Big guys? That's another story. That's where you may have a beef with Cluess's recruiting, but I'll stay open-minded, because he's proven everything else, IMO.[/quote]
Cluess' best players were arguably Mike Glover, who played like a beast down low, and 6'9 David Laury, who was the league MVP.[/quote]
You can throw in Jordan Washington as well.[/quote]
Yeah, they beat up on low mid major teams, how's that gonna fly in the BE? And I'm hot excusing Chris from his small ball either.[/quote]
What kind of argument is this?
You could say that about anyone not coaching in a power conference.
Jim Calhoun beat up on his mid-major opponents while at Northeastern.
Rollie at Stony Brook
PJ at Wagner
Jim O'Brien at St. Bonnies
Ben Howland at Northern Arizona
Jay Wright at Hofstra.
Cooley at Fairfield.
And on and on.....[/quote]
Please stop making sense MM, you're confusing a lot of the board members.
Big guys? That's another story. That's where you may have a beef with Cluess's recruiting, but I'll stay open-minded, because he's proven everything else, IMO.[/quote]
Cluess' best players were arguably Mike Glover, who played like a beast down low, and 6'9 David Laury, who was the league MVP.[/quote]
You can throw in Jordan Washington as well.[/quote]
Yeah, they beat up on low mid major teams, how's that gonna fly in the BE? And I'm hot excusing Chris from his small ball either.[/quote]
What kind of argument is this?
You could say that about anyone not coaching in a power conference.
Jim Calhoun beat up on his mid-major opponents while at Northeastern.
Rollie at Stony Brook
PJ at Wagner
Jim O'Brien at St. Bonnies
Ben Howland at Northern Arizona
Jay Wright at Hofstra.
Cooley at Fairfield.
And on and on.....[/quote]
Please stop making sense MM, you're confusing a lot of the board members.
JohnnyFever
Active member
I can just feel a Paultz bomb coming...sirens sounding west of LI in the distance seems like from Queens!
Seems like the sentiments surrounding the last 3 hires were "why couldn't we find a good mid-major coach to be our HC, as opposed to a career asst who was a failure in his few HC stints(Norm), an announcer who was fired from his last job(Lav) and an icon who never coached a day in his life(Chris)". So now we have the possibility of hiring a very successful mid major coach, and a local one with SJU ties to boot, and a lot of you guys hate the idea? Geez!.
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=340768][quote="Marillac" post=340752][quote="Mike Zaun" post=340739]Why berate Cragg? He has done a great job here so far and has pulled all the right levers so far. We missed out on Hurley but that's only because we can't afford him even with Repole helping apparently. We will never win bidding wars with F5 schools. No one has technically been announced yet, but even if it's Cluess we have to give him a chance. Believe in Cragg until proven otherwise. I believe Paultz said it best when he said Cragg won't perform miracles but he will do the best he can or something similar. Hurley would've been a miracle because we don't have money to compete with ASU.[/quote]
Why berate Mullin? Stop with your selective protections.
Cragg paid four mill to buyout a coach that made the tournament just to get kicked in the nuts by Hurley and then scramble to Cluess only to find that his buyout is two mill! Six mill for a slight improvement for a school that can’t even match a second tier university’s salary for its third most popular sport.
It’s a clown show.[/quote]
Just remember, you're the one backing the guy who went 32 games below .500 and didn't bother to tell his players he was leaving in person...or recruit...or coach...or do much of anything. I'm backing the guy that presumably forced that guy out. I'd say my guy is better than your guy right now. Mullin already made tons of stupid mistakes and caused enough damage. Cragg hasn't made any clear mistake yet. Hurley was out of our price range. That's not on the AD. Let's see who we hire first before butchering Cragg who has zero track record of bad decisions for now.[/quote]
Please give me Cragg’s record of good decisions. I’ll be happy to wait. Not once in his career did Cragg have to replace a head baketball coach. What does the senior administrator for basketball even do...make sure the hotel for the Final Four has a hot tub?
Why berate Mullin? Stop with your selective protections.
Cragg paid four mill to buyout a coach that made the tournament just to get kicked in the nuts by Hurley and then scramble to Cluess only to find that his buyout is two mill! Six mill for a slight improvement for a school that can’t even match a second tier university’s salary for its third most popular sport.
It’s a clown show.[/quote]
Just remember, you're the one backing the guy who went 32 games below .500 and didn't bother to tell his players he was leaving in person...or recruit...or coach...or do much of anything. I'm backing the guy that presumably forced that guy out. I'd say my guy is better than your guy right now. Mullin already made tons of stupid mistakes and caused enough damage. Cragg hasn't made any clear mistake yet. Hurley was out of our price range. That's not on the AD. Let's see who we hire first before butchering Cragg who has zero track record of bad decisions for now.[/quote]
Please give me Cragg’s record of good decisions. I’ll be happy to wait. Not once in his career did Cragg have to replace a head baketball coach. What does the senior administrator for basketball even do...make sure the hotel for the Final Four has a hot tub?
[quote="Monte" post=340781]Seems like the sentiments surrounding the last 3 hires were "why couldn't we find a good mid-major coach to be our HC, as opposed to a career asst who was a failure in his few HC stints(Norm), an announcer who was fired from his last job(Lav) and an icon who never coached a day in his life(Chris)". So now we have the possibility of hiring a very successful mid major coach, and a local one with SJU ties to boot, and a lot of you guys hate the idea? Geez!.[/quote]
Exactly. I've always pushed for the mid-major coach, everytime we've gone through one of these. IMO, it is your best chance to sustain success.
I wanted Fran when we hired him.
When Jarvis was hired, I wanted Bill Herrion (then of Drexel). He opted never to take that leap though, and eventually flamed out, so maybe that was good.
When we hired Roberts, I wanted Calipari, but knew that politics would probably keep him out. I don't remember who I was pushing for after that, but I knew I didn't want Doherty (which is why I was kinder to the Norm higher then I probably should have been, although I always thought he was a class man).
I wanted either McCaffery or Steve Donahue of Cornell (who flamed out at BC- glad to be wrong on him), before Lavin was hired. Now, I didn't think Lavin was a real possibility at the time. Once his name was mentioned, I was behind that 100%.
My first choice, prior to the Mullin hire, was Dan Hurley, followed by Tim Cluess. Of course, I wanted Mullin to do great.
So, my support of Tim Cluess is consistent with how I've felt in the past. Power 7 conference coaches are not going to come here (Georgia Tech wanted Paul Hewitt to come here, and he still didn't). So, going with a successful mid-major is always the most logical way to go for us, IMO.
Exactly. I've always pushed for the mid-major coach, everytime we've gone through one of these. IMO, it is your best chance to sustain success.
I wanted Fran when we hired him.
When Jarvis was hired, I wanted Bill Herrion (then of Drexel). He opted never to take that leap though, and eventually flamed out, so maybe that was good.
When we hired Roberts, I wanted Calipari, but knew that politics would probably keep him out. I don't remember who I was pushing for after that, but I knew I didn't want Doherty (which is why I was kinder to the Norm higher then I probably should have been, although I always thought he was a class man).
I wanted either McCaffery or Steve Donahue of Cornell (who flamed out at BC- glad to be wrong on him), before Lavin was hired. Now, I didn't think Lavin was a real possibility at the time. Once his name was mentioned, I was behind that 100%.
My first choice, prior to the Mullin hire, was Dan Hurley, followed by Tim Cluess. Of course, I wanted Mullin to do great.
So, my support of Tim Cluess is consistent with how I've felt in the past. Power 7 conference coaches are not going to come here (Georgia Tech wanted Paul Hewitt to come here, and he still didn't). So, going with a successful mid-major is always the most logical way to go for us, IMO.
[quote="Marillac" post=340793][quote="mattc" post=340790]Here's one thing I know for sure. It shouldn't take a full week for St. John's to hire Tim Cluess as its men's basketball coach. Something isn't adding up.[/quote]
His buyout. Big time move by Iona.[/quote]
Doesn't every coach currently employed on the D-I level have some sort of buyout? Were we just not prepared at all for this process?
His buyout. Big time move by Iona.[/quote]
Doesn't every coach currently employed on the D-I level have some sort of buyout? Were we just not prepared at all for this process?
there's no way SJU is paying Iona $2m for Tim Cluess. Ain't gonna happen.
[quote="mattc" post=340790]Here's one thing I know for sure. It shouldn't take a full week for St. John's to hire Tim Cluess as its men's basketball coach. Something isn't adding up.[/quote]
Didn't we have the same issue with Jarvis? If memory serves, there was some issue with the contract, and it took about 10 days or so to clean up.
Didn't we have the same issue with Jarvis? If memory serves, there was some issue with the contract, and it took about 10 days or so to clean up.
stjohnschris
Active member
Hiring Cluess is not a bad decision, but there have to be better options. All of the references to mid major success, then taking it to a major are all correct, but every coach referenced was 20 or more years younger. Boeheim, Cooley, Wright, etc. I can understand making Bobby Hurley target one, but if target two isn't Rick Pitino, it's very frustrating.
[quote="SJU61982" post=340755][quote="Section9" post=340737][quote="SJU61982" post=340732][quote="Section9" post=340726][quote="Johnnie Drama" post=340712][quote="MainMan" post=340708][quote="SJU61982" post=340705]
Big guys? That's another story. That's where you may have a beef with Cluess's recruiting, but I'll stay open-minded, because he's proven everything else, IMO.[/quote]
Cluess' best players were arguably Mike Glover, who played like a beast down low, and 6'9 David Laury, who was the league MVP.[/quote]
You can throw in Jordan Washington as well.[/quote]
Yeah, they beat up on low mid major teams, how's that gonna fly in the BE? And I'm hot excusing Chris from his small ball either.[/quote]
These are exactly the same kind of questions Cluess faced when he went from high school ball to junior college.
He faced them again when he went from JC to college ball.
He faced them again when he went from D2 coaching, to D1 coaching.
The only constant in this, is that he has proven the so-called "experts" wrong every time. Maybe he won't this time, but IMO, the odds are overwhelmingly in his favor.[/quote]
All the steps you describe are baby steps compared to jumping to top D. 1 competition. I have absolutely no confidence that he pull it off at SJU.[/quote]
OK, what realistic candidate do you have more confidence in? And don't say "anybody", that's not an answer.
I can't believe that this many intelligent people, both fans and media, are so against his hiring. You can never be 100% sure of anybody, but he check all the marks for me.
Did you object to Fran's hiring? He came from the MAAC. Yes, he was unstable, but he had the program on the right track.
Would you have objected to us hiring Cooley, or Willard, at the times Providence and Seton Hall took them? Willard to the Hall surprised me at the time, I will admit, but it's worked out for them.
The MAAC is not a death knell for coaches moving to the big time. Quite a few of them have actually been very successful, and Cluess's resume is better then any of the three I just mentioned, at the time of the hiring (well, Fran won an NCAA game, so maybe not him, but definitely better then the other two).[/quote]
i'd take Scheyer over Cluess.
As far as Fran was concerned, it was a different scenario then. First he was a lot younger, Cluess is 60. And, yeah, Franny was a wacko, but who knew then, Fran was in his 30s and had long-term potential. I don't see Cleuss aging gracefully as our coach.
Fran brought in a fantastic local recruiting class. The dynamic has changed. Today virtually all those kids would go to prep schools out of the area. Think Cluess has the gravitas to chase after and sign 4* kids the majority of whom are outside the area? I don't.
You use Cooley and Willard as examples, and to answer your question, no I wouldn't have been pleased if we hired either. Yeah, they worked out but I'm just not willing to take the same chance with Cluess.
Big guys? That's another story. That's where you may have a beef with Cluess's recruiting, but I'll stay open-minded, because he's proven everything else, IMO.[/quote]
Cluess' best players were arguably Mike Glover, who played like a beast down low, and 6'9 David Laury, who was the league MVP.[/quote]
You can throw in Jordan Washington as well.[/quote]
Yeah, they beat up on low mid major teams, how's that gonna fly in the BE? And I'm hot excusing Chris from his small ball either.[/quote]
These are exactly the same kind of questions Cluess faced when he went from high school ball to junior college.
He faced them again when he went from JC to college ball.
He faced them again when he went from D2 coaching, to D1 coaching.
The only constant in this, is that he has proven the so-called "experts" wrong every time. Maybe he won't this time, but IMO, the odds are overwhelmingly in his favor.[/quote]
All the steps you describe are baby steps compared to jumping to top D. 1 competition. I have absolutely no confidence that he pull it off at SJU.[/quote]
OK, what realistic candidate do you have more confidence in? And don't say "anybody", that's not an answer.
I can't believe that this many intelligent people, both fans and media, are so against his hiring. You can never be 100% sure of anybody, but he check all the marks for me.
Did you object to Fran's hiring? He came from the MAAC. Yes, he was unstable, but he had the program on the right track.
Would you have objected to us hiring Cooley, or Willard, at the times Providence and Seton Hall took them? Willard to the Hall surprised me at the time, I will admit, but it's worked out for them.
The MAAC is not a death knell for coaches moving to the big time. Quite a few of them have actually been very successful, and Cluess's resume is better then any of the three I just mentioned, at the time of the hiring (well, Fran won an NCAA game, so maybe not him, but definitely better then the other two).[/quote]
i'd take Scheyer over Cluess.
As far as Fran was concerned, it was a different scenario then. First he was a lot younger, Cluess is 60. And, yeah, Franny was a wacko, but who knew then, Fran was in his 30s and had long-term potential. I don't see Cleuss aging gracefully as our coach.
Fran brought in a fantastic local recruiting class. The dynamic has changed. Today virtually all those kids would go to prep schools out of the area. Think Cluess has the gravitas to chase after and sign 4* kids the majority of whom are outside the area? I don't.
You use Cooley and Willard as examples, and to answer your question, no I wouldn't have been pleased if we hired either. Yeah, they worked out but I'm just not willing to take the same chance with Cluess.