Cluess

[quote="newsman13" post=340600][quote="MarkRedman" post=340574][
Providence hired Cooley from Fairfield and that worked out pretty well for them[/quote]
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Refresh my memory...what has Providence won?[/quote]
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MAAC Alum Coach Cooley has been the head coach at Providence for 7 seasons. His teams
* have qualified for post season play 6 of his 7 years,
* have qualified for the NCAA each of the last 5 seasons, and
* has won one Big East Tournament Championship
 
The way I see it, we need to crawl before we can walk...and then run. We aren't going from being 32 games under .500 in the past 4 years to being in the Elite 8 with Cluess. We need to get to that point where we consistently win 20+ games and compete for NCAA berths and make them a good amount. Even if that means a lot of losing in the tourney right away or at most winning 1 game. If we get to where PC is under Cluess, I'll be happy. Cooley has already gotten to the regular tourney berth point of the mountain and consistent winning. That was good for a while but now he will be expected to make the occasional run in the tourney. We aren't at that point in the mountain yet where Cooley already is. Let's get there first and then if we aren't making any runs after a lot of appearances, I'll be the first to cast a stone, although I'm definitely not without sin lol.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=340618]The way I see it, we need to crawl before we can walk...and then run. We aren't going from being 32 games under .500 in the past 4 years to being in the Elite 8 with Cluess. We need to get to that point where we consistently win 20+ games and compete for NCAA berths and make them a good amount. Even if that means a lot of losing in the tourney right away or at most winning 1 game. If we get to where PC is under Cluess, I'll be happy. Cooley has already gotten to the regular tourney berth point of the mountain and consistent winning. That was good for a while but now he will be expected to make the occasional run in the tourney. We aren't at that point in the mountain yet where Cooley already is. Let's get there first and then if we aren't making any runs after a lot of appearances, I'll be the first to cast a stone, although I'm definitely not without sin lol.[/quote] Cooley came to Providence from a MAAC school too, BTW. Fairfield, for those who say that transition can't be made effectively.
 
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Maybe, just maybe, we need to establish ourselves a a consistently solid program(like a PC) before we can move to an elite level program. We have been so horribly inconsistent the past 20 years that I long for the days of consistently winning 20-25 games. IMO Cluess is the kind of coach that can get us there. Maybe he won’t make us a national title contender, but at this point I’m not looking for us to make the leap from a train-wreck of a program to an elite program. Any coach that is a quick-fix is likely a short stay. We need to reestablish a foundation here. A guy like Cluess can provide solid(maybe not spectacular) coaching, stability and longevity. Something we badly need after having 6 failed coaches in the last 25 years.
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=340618]The way I see it, we need to crawl before we can walk...and then run. We aren't going from being 32 games under .500 in the past 4 years to being in the Elite 8 with Cluess. We need to get to that point where we consistently win 20+ games and compete for NCAA berths and make them a good amount. Even if that means a lot of losing in the tourney right away or at most winning 1 game. If we get to where PC is under Cluess, I'll be happy. Cooley has already gotten to the regular tourney berth point of the mountain and consistent winning. That was good for a while but now he will be expected to make the occasional run in the tourney. We aren't at that point in the mountain yet where Cooley already is. Let's get there first and then if we aren't making any runs after a lot of appearances, I'll be the first to cast a stone, although I'm definitely not without sin lol.[/quote]

We'll see how you feel when we are 0-18 in the conference next year.
That's what's happening.
 
[quote="SJ_NYC" post=340624][quote="Mike Zaun" post=340618]The way I see it, we need to crawl before we can walk...and then run. We aren't going from being 32 games under .500 in the past 4 years to being in the Elite 8 with Cluess. We need to get to that point where we consistently win 20+ games and compete for NCAA berths and make them a good amount. Even if that means a lot of losing in the tourney right away or at most winning 1 game. If we get to where PC is under Cluess, I'll be happy. Cooley has already gotten to the regular tourney berth point of the mountain and consistent winning. That was good for a while but now he will be expected to make the occasional run in the tourney. We aren't at that point in the mountain yet where Cooley already is. Let's get there first and then if we aren't making any runs after a lot of appearances, I'll be the first to cast a stone, although I'm definitely not without sin lol.[/quote]

We'll see how you feel when we are 0-18 in the conference next year.
That's what's happening.[/quote]

That has to do with Mullin and staff not recruiting, leaving it all to Matt and Matt flying the coop. Any new coach would be left with same roster at this point.
 
Also has to do with the way the "search" went. I think that unless CM quit unexpectedly, we should have had our guy (Hurley, Cluess or other) lined up when the announcement was made CM was leaving.

And, despite the prospect of a very difficult year next yrar (and having to fill out a roster), there is no question that CM had run his course. For his personal reasons, or reasons that have nothing to do with that (i.e., commitment to all the little things, recruiting etc.), CM wasn't the answer, sadly. So, a change had to be made. Unless we were to get the big time guy, any time (this year, next...), a difficult season was likely to follow. So, rip the band aid off and get the healing started.

I am happy with Cluess. He is a guy, as has been stated (including by me) who wants to be here, works hard, has recruited well (albeit at a different level), has a style of play and plan, has all the local contacts.

I hope all of our posters, and fans of the team, rally around him, and allow him to show us why he's wanted to coach here for several decades.

[quote="MCNPA" post=340625][quote="SJ_NYC" post=340624][quote="Mike Zaun" post=340618]The way I see it, we need to crawl before we can walk...and then run. We aren't going from being 32 games under .500 in the past 4 years to being in the Elite 8 with Cluess. We need to get to that point where we consistently win 20+ games and compete for NCAA berths and make them a good amount. Even if that means a lot of losing in the tourney right away or at most winning 1 game. If we get to where PC is under Cluess, I'll be happy. Cooley has already gotten to the regular tourney berth point of the mountain and consistent winning. That was good for a while but now he will be expected to make the occasional run in the tourney. We aren't at that point in the mountain yet where Cooley already is. Let's get there first and then if we aren't making any runs after a lot of appearances, I'll be the first to cast a stone, although I'm definitely not without sin lol.[/quote]

We'll see how you feel when we are 0-18 in the conference next year.
That's what's happening.[/quote]

That has to do with Mullin and staff not recruiting, leaving it all to Matt and Matt flying the coop. Any new coach would be left with same roster at this point.[/quote]
 
[quote="mattc" post=340487]Cluess may work out just fine, but I'll never be convinced that Cragg handled this well. You force Mullin out the door and your only two options are Hurley and Cluess, the latter of whom you could hire next year if you're so inclined? This is laughable. I readily admit I don't know all the facts about how this played out, but from where I sit we look once again like a mom and pop store. You HAVE to have a plan B, and it looks like Cragg did not. What a friggin joke. I'm furious.[/quote]

Bingo.

Cluess can win here. Cluess could have ended up being the right hire after going through the right process. But this was not executed properly and likely closed us off to, at a minimum, other options.

Why did it take 3 weeks from our last game for Mullin to "resign"? Unless Mullin out of thin air said he doesn't want to coach anymore - seems unlikely - any scenario after our season ended on March 20 should have been predicted by a seasoned AD. He asked for an extension you didn't want to give him? The sky is also blue.

And if you wanted to push Mullin out, even less explicable to let it drag 3 weeks and end as as messily as it did. That should have been handled swiftly and decisively right when the season ended like a competent program would.

Because Alabama got Oats. Arkansas got Musselman. Nebraska got Hoiberg. I mean goodness, even Nevada was able to quickly and effectively replace Musselman with Alford.

The open market dictates value. If you put all those guys, Bobby Hurley, and Tim Cluess on the market Cluess would be, by an incredibly wide margin, the coach in least demand.

Doesn't mean Cluess isn't a unique fit for SJU in particular. Doesn't mean he can't have more success or stay here longer than some of these other more valued guys. But Tim Cluess was going to be there AFTER you gave yourself an opportunity to look at coaches that are in greater demand to evaluate if they might be a better option for your program. And Cragg didn't even give SJU that chance.

Which is a pathetic and important point. SJU didn't need Cragg to sloppily move on from a program legend, create player angst with mis and non communication, and then hire Cluess. They could promote the most junior administrator in the department to do that.

The problem is 100% not Tim Cluess, who has a lot of things many have clamored for that our prior 3 coaches lacked. This is about SJU's seemingly persistent inability to even come close to entering the ballpark of a coherent process when hiring a men's basketball coach.

One freaking time, just one time, it would be great to at least see if you can get the Oats of a given year when we happen to have an opening. A guy who was a 6 seed at a public university in your own state. Maybe you can'get him! Maybe you can't get any of the guys above who are at big state schools now. Maybe we just can't compete at that level of hiring anymore in general. And that's fine. Then you hire Tim Cluess and maybe even feel great about it.

But at least give yourself a freaking chance to get one of the top guys on the market that cycle. SJU has failed to give itself that opportunity with 4 consecutive hires, which is mind boggling to begin with and frustrating that an AD coming from Duke couldn't change that direction.
 
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I don’t see how hiring Cluess helps the recruiting problem. Let’s say you are a good PG. Not blue blood good but good. You are being recruited by Providence, Seton Hall and Georgetown. Who are you going with? Cooley, Willard, Ewing or Cluess? Most people don’t have a clue (no pun intended) who the hell Cluess is. Given the fact he is 60 year old coach he has been operating in relative obscurity he is basically unknown to kids and families. Even a massive effort is not going to close that gap.
 
[quote="SJU1512" post=340629][quote="mattc" post=340487]Cluess may work out just fine, but I'll never be convinced that Cragg handled this well. You force Mullin out the door and your only two options are Hurley and Cluess, the latter of whom you could hire next year if you're so inclined? This is laughable. I readily admit I don't know all the facts about how this played out, but from where I sit we look once again like a mom and pop store. You HAVE to have a plan B, and it looks like Cragg did not. What a friggin joke. I'm furious.[/quote]

Bingo.

Cluess can win here. Cluess could have ended up being the right hire after going through the right process. But this was not executed properly and likely closed us off to, at a minimum, other options.

Why did it take 3 weeks from our last game for Mullin to "resign"? Unless Mullin out of thin air said he doesn't want to coach anymore - seems unlikely - any scenario after our season ended on March 20 should have been predicted by a seasoned AD. He asked for an extension you didn't want to give him? The sky is also blue.

And if you wanted to push Mullin out, even less explicable to let it drag 3 weeks and end as as messily as it did. That should have been handled swiftly and decisively right when the season ended like a competent program would.

Because Alabama got Oats. Arkansas got Musselman. Nebraska got Hoiberg. I mean goodness, even Nevada was able to quickly and effectively replace Musselman with Alford.

The open market dictates value. If you put all those guys, Bobby Hurley, and Tim Cluess on the market Cluess would be, by an incredibly wide margin, the coach in least demand.

Doesn't mean Cluess isn't a unique fit for SJU in particular. Doesn't mean he can't have more success or stay here longer than some of these other more valued guys. But Tim Cluess was going to be there AFTER you gave yourself an opportunity to look at coaches that are in greater demand to evaluate if they might be a better option for your program. And Cragg didn't even give SJU that chance.

Which is a pathetic and important point. SJU didn't need Cragg to sloppily move on from a program legend, create player angst with mis and non communication, and then hire Cluess. They could promote the most junior administrator in the department to do that.

The problem is 100% not Tim Cluess, who has a lot of things many have clamored for that our prior 3 coaches lacked. This is about SJU's seemingly persistent inability to even come close to entering the ballpark of a coherent process when hiring a men's basketball coach.

One freaking time, just one time, it would be great to at least see if you can get the Oats of a given year when we happen to have an opening. A guy who was a 6 seed at a public university in your own state. Maybe you can'get him! Maybe you can't get any of the guys above who are at big state schools now. Maybe we just can't compete at that level of hiring anymore in general. And that's fine. Then you hire Tim Cluess and maybe even feel great about it.

But at least give yourself a freaking chance to get one of the top guys on the market that cycle. SJU has failed to give itself that opportunity with 4 consecutive hires, which is mind boggling to begin with and frustrating that an AD coming from Duke couldn't change that direction.[/quote]

All valid points, but the reality is that few of us know what went on with CM and MC between the end of the year and when CM left. Maybe he asked for a few weeks to let the dust settle and for him to deal with the loss of his brother before discussing the future with MC? Maybe what CM asked for blindsided MC? Who really knows? Furthermore who’s to say that MC hasn’t been making inquiries to other coaches only to be rebuffed? On the surface this seems poorly handled, but again we don’t know what lays beneath the surface. We also don’t know where things stand at the moment with options besides Cluess. Hoping there’s a better candidate still being considered, but if Cluess turns out to be our new HC I’m ok with that
 
[quote="SJ_NYC" post=340624][quote="Mike Zaun" post=340618]The way I see it, we need to crawl before we can walk...and then run. We aren't going from being 32 games under .500 in the past 4 years to being in the Elite 8 with Cluess. We need to get to that point where we consistently win 20+ games and compete for NCAA berths and make them a good amount. Even if that means a lot of losing in the tourney right away or at most winning 1 game. If we get to where PC is under Cluess, I'll be happy. Cooley has already gotten to the regular tourney berth point of the mountain and consistent winning. That was good for a while but now he will be expected to make the occasional run in the tourney. We aren't at that point in the mountain yet where Cooley already is. Let's get there first and then if we aren't making any runs after a lot of appearances, I'll be the first to cast a stone, although I'm definitely not without sin lol.[/quote]

We'll see how you feel when we are 0-18 in the conference next year.
That's what's happening.[/quote]

Pretty much got that from Mullin in a year where he had a lot of talent. Obviously any coach's year 1 is zero expectations especially seeing our entire roster gone. Give him 3 years to show signs of life. At least he will be out recruiting and actually coaching and developing unlike a certain someone. At least we know he will TRY as ridiculous as it sounds. I'd like to get some nice 4 year players under Cluess and see them get better each year. I'm looking forward to getting HS recruits again. Can't tell you how many times I watch good teams on TV and look up a certain notable player in the game only to find out he was a 2 or 3 star recruit. Coaching matters. Development matters. Give Cluess 2 beastly AC's and let's get this rebuild going. Not many mention this but Cluess does well with transfers too which will plug holes and shocker...we won't rely on them soon (maybe initially to get a team at all). Let's enjoy not wasting time on 5 stars going to UK, Duke, UNC, etc. and start focusing on 4 year players who are underrated. At least when we all go to bed at night we will know our coaches are doing everything they can. If we get a good recruiter, he can sell the fact that Cluess has a ridiculously good record lifetime winning 65% of his games. How many coaches have we had that could sell "I've won everywhere I've been and 20+ wins almost every year of 12 years coaching"?
 
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Not sure how St. John's got left in a situation where the options were either a guy who was using the offer to leverage a raise, or Cluess (who may be fine). Arkansas is a better job so I can accept never getting in on Oats. Washington State may be the worst power 5 job in basketball. Losing Kyle Smith to them without ever getting a crack at him is really annoying.
 
[quote="sjc88" post=340632]I don’t see how hiring Cluess helps the recruiting problem. Let’s say you are a good PG. Not blue blood good but good. You are being recruited by Providence, Seton Hall and Georgetown. Who are you going with? Cooley, Willard, Ewing or Cluess? Most people don’t have a clue (no pun intended) who the hell Cluess is. Given the fact he is 60 year old coach he has been operating in relative obscurity he is basically unknown to kids and families. Even a massive effort is not going to close that gap.[/quote]

No recruits know who Nate Oats formerly of Buffalo is either. Cluess’ ties to NYC are very strong and all the coaches and players know who he is. What you’re saying is patently untrue. Willard was a nobody before he took the Hall job. Players come to play for good coaches period. It also takes an eye for talent which Cluess has. Some strong recruiting assistants and we will be landing players.
 
Cluess is yet another settle for a coach move and will continue the downward spiral. I respect what he has done at Iona but he is not the name that is going to get elite talent to come here. He has done well in the MAAC and has made it successfully to the NCAA, to lose everytime. He has done well where he is at. What suddenly makes people think he can bring the elite talent here...our name? It hasn't been what it once was for 15 years. This is a silly, reactionary hire. I hope I am proven wrong. I would love to find myself eating crow...but I doubt I will be.
 
[quote="adavis1" post=340636]Not sure how St. John's got left in a situation where the options were either a guy who was using the offer to leverage a raise, or Cluess (who may be fine). Arkansas is a better job so I can accept never getting in on Oats. Washington State may be the worst power 5 job in basketball. Losing Kyle Smith to them without ever getting a crack at him is really annoying.[/quote]

Bama took Oats and he would've come here. When I said we should target him immediately and nab him, I was called impatient and told to relax lol. Oh well, I'll be happy with Cluess.
 
[quote="SJU14" post=340615][quote="mattc" post=340611]Waking up this morning, I'm even more furious at how this has played out.

Is Cluess a solid coach who could succeed here? Yes.
Does Mike Cragg look terrible here? Yes.

Cragg talked the talk as soon as he got on campus. He has a great track record, having spent 30+ years at Duke University. We all thought he had big-time aspirations and would take us to the next level. So what does he do? Force the face of the school out the door (a move I agreed with). Then he whiffs on his ONLY candidate, Bobby Hurley. Did he not anticipate ASU would counter? They're a state university for crying out loud. So what's his fallback option? Tim Cluess, a solid coach, but someone any poster on this board could have hired. You could've hired me for 1/5 the money you're paying Cragg, and I could guarantee I would've delivered Tim Cluess. Cragg was supposed to deliver here, and he struck out swinging. I readily admit I don't know how everything played out here, but I'm embarrassed and pissed off.

The end result with Cluess may work out, but the process here was an absolute joke. Shame on us.[/quote]

If you think Hurley was Cragg’s only candidate then you’re mistaken.[/quote]

Wait did I miss something? Has it "played out?"
You might be right, you could be wrong. It is all speculation at this point.
Let's let it "Play Out"
 
What I fear most if Cluess is the choice, is he will not get a honeymoon period. It wil not be his fault of course, but he will take the bullets from an angry alum/fanbase.

And I normally give coaches here time to put their stamp on the program before giving my opinion.

But admittedly, I will be one of the frustrated with a Cluess hire, and will have work cut out to in order to keep my composure.
 
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