@Butler, Wed. Feb. 15, 8:30pm, FS1/570AM

Disgusted lets keep thing in perspective from tonite going forward To give up 110 points there is no defense and perhaps they just can't play defense Nice to run but maybe we should have slowed each possession and saved some face This could be the most a st johns team has given up Would not have happen with coachC

Quick check of the record book shows the most points given up by a St. John's team was a 113-97 loss to Syracuse in 1965. Yup, Coach C. Guess we should have canned his butt right there... ;)

That game was in LA at what was called the LA Classic in the consolation round, the day before we put up 102 in a win over LSU! FWIW, less than 2 weeks later later we beat cuse at AH 66-65.
 
Ability to string together wins part of growing process. We've alternated loss-win for 9 games now, 50% of conference schedule. The flip side is that not allowing 1 loss to turn into 2 is also a strong and important trait, and we've done a pretty good job of that.

Inability to string together consistent efforts? More concerning but hope also part of young, inexperienced team.

Don't think last night can be explained by any of that, at least not exclusively. Really bad showing. On to Marquette.
The 1st step for a young, emerging team is protect the home turf which we have started to do. Consistency on the road will come later.

This is why I think that CM needs to choreograph the 1st "x" plays to avoid the poor, out of control starts..
 
Was Butler overplaying Lovett to go left and if so did it mess up our spacing and drive and kick game?

Best thing they did was run Ponds and Lovett off the 3 point line
 
Disgusted lets keep thing in perspective from tonite going forward To give up 110 points there is no defense and perhaps they just can't play defense Nice to run but maybe we should have slowed each possession and saved some face This could be the most a st johns team has given up Would not have happen with coachC

Quick check of the record book shows the most points given up by a St. John's team was a 113-97 loss to Syracuse in 1965. Yup, Coach C. Guess we should have canned his butt right there... ;)

Thanks for looking that up. No matter 11o-113 is a failure on the defense can not cream coat it Last yr and this ye we have way too many teams score high on us Yes Coach see had some bad games but his body of work speaks volume Coach M has a lot of work to do on his end the staff and the team. I have supported him and the team and will continue to do so but when they play like they did against Bulter they all should be call out

This answers so much for me
 
I really don't get the lack of effort complaint. I know that even the guys who don't play much, like Amar, are amped up all week for the next game, and I am certain are much more focused on upcoming games than on schoolwork.

Now I don't always think energy shows up on the court, especially in away games where a home crowd can just take the air out of you. It's a weird really - like the adrenalin being sucked out of your body when you are not playing well away. I also believe that when a team falls behind, individual players break from the team first mode, not to be selfish, but to try to make something happen. When that happens, guys sometimes start playing outside of their ability and bad things happen.

Flat yes. Air sucked out of the room, yes. Sluggish play as a result, yes. But not trying - I don't buy it.

All you have to do is watch the games instead of Mullin. Trailing cutters, going under every pick, lackadaisical or completely out of control close outs, reaching for loose balls instead of sticking their noses in, lack of boxing out, very sporadic commitment to defense in general. Call it what you want, make excuses as you wish, this group of players are not committed to the tough stuff, except Owens. They generally play hardest when the ball is in their hands. When you are committed to winning on offense, wins are pretty but inconsistent. Defense keeps you in games and gives you a chance to win consistently unless you can just overwhelm with talent and we are not that good. Last point, don't confuse towel waving and cheerleading for hard play; the next time AA boxes someone out will be his first.
 
I really don't get the lack of effort complaint. I know that even the guys who don't play much, like Amar, are amped up all week for the next game, and I am certain are much more focused on upcoming games than on schoolwork.

Now I don't always think energy shows up on the court, especially in away games where a home crowd can just take the air out of you. It's a weird really - like the adrenalin being sucked out of your body when you are not playing well away. I also believe that when a team falls behind, individual players break from the team first mode, not to be selfish, but to try to make something happen. When that happens, guys sometimes start playing outside of their ability and bad things happen.

Flat yes. Air sucked out of the room, yes. Sluggish play as a result, yes. But not trying - I don't buy it.

All you have to do is watch the games instead of Mullin. Trailing cutters, going under every pick, lackadaisical or completely out of control close outs, reaching for loose balls instead of sticking their noses in, lack of boxing out, very sporadic commitment to defense in general. Call it what you want, make excuses as you wish, this group of players are not committed to the tough stuff, except Owens. They generally play hardest when the ball is in their hands. When you are committed to winning on offense, wins are pretty but inconsistent. Defense keeps you in games and gives you a chance to win consistently unless you can just overwhelm with talent and we are not that good. Last point, don't confuse towel waving and cheerleading for hard play; the next time AA boxes someone out will be his first.

A good friend of mine was the long time coach at St Thomas Aquinas. At practice one day, he said to his team, "Here's a scenario for you: We are down 30 points with 8 minutes to play. IF you were on the court, what would you do?"

He expected a bunch of answers such as full court press, shorten our possessions, push the ball, etc, but the first kid who raised his hand responded seriously when he said "Get mine, coach." He thought it was hysterical but that is often the mindset of a kid towards the tail end of a huge loss. In those games, there is often lazy defense at the end and selfish play on offense.

To suggest that our kids do something like that from the get go is insulting to the players. We went in the hole early, and guys like Ahmed, Ponds, and Lovett will sometimes try to do too much, and take ill advised shots, gamble on defense putting them out of position, etc.

You want to be critical of our guys then you had better be critical of our coach, who if he saw what you saw, albeit in person, he should have read his guys the riot act and put in guys who wanted to play. You can't have it both ways. If you think our kids were lazy and selfish, then you had better put that on the coach for tolerating it.
 
Unfortunately, in this Day and Age, NO one is drafted into the NBA because they are good Defensive players. So, while Coaches may try to teach Defense to youngsters, it too often falls on deaf ears. Kind of like teaching Geometry Theorems.

Little Billy or Johnny aren't going to be benched if they can score X number of points a game. So, it starts at the grammar School or CYO level and continues all the way to the Pros. Old Time BB has changed as much as Old Time Hockey , it isn't played anymore.
 
I really don't get the lack of effort complaint. I know that even the guys who don't play much, like Amar, are amped up all week for the next game, and I am certain are much more focused on upcoming games than on schoolwork.

Now I don't always think energy shows up on the court, especially in away games where a home crowd can just take the air out of you. It's a weird really - like the adrenalin being sucked out of your body when you are not playing well away. I also believe that when a team falls behind, individual players break from the team first mode, not to be selfish, but to try to make something happen. When that happens, guys sometimes start playing outside of their ability and bad things happen.

Flat yes. Air sucked out of the room, yes. Sluggish play as a result, yes. But not trying - I don't buy it.

All you have to do is watch the games instead of Mullin. Trailing cutters, going under every pick, lackadaisical or completely out of control close outs, reaching for loose balls instead of sticking their noses in, lack of boxing out, very sporadic commitment to defense in general. Call it what you want, make excuses as you wish, this group of players are not committed to the tough stuff, except Owens. They generally play hardest when the ball is in their hands. When you are committed to winning on offense, wins are pretty but inconsistent. Defense keeps you in games and gives you a chance to win consistently unless you can just overwhelm with talent and we are not that good. Last point, don't confuse towel waving and cheerleading for hard play; the next time AA boxes someone out will be his first.

That is my biggest concern with projecting next year. Getting bigger, stronger and more experience makes you bigger, stronger and more experienced. It does not necessarily make you tougher, more tenacious or hard nosed. A lot of our defensive and rebounding deficiencies are effort based. That doesn't change much unless there is a commitment made to it.

Just look at how hard the Butler bigs hedged the high ball screen. It completely disrupted the flow of our offense and made Lovett or Ponds start their drive from much higher out. This gives the defense more time to recover and rotate to help. It also takes away some of the angles for easy drives. The help defense understood who to help off of and who not to help off us...ie which shooters to leave open and which shooters to stay home on.
 
I really don't get the lack of effort complaint. I know that even the guys who don't play much, like Amar, are amped up all week for the next game, and I am certain are much more focused on upcoming games than on schoolwork.

Now I don't always think energy shows up on the court, especially in away games where a home crowd can just take the air out of you. It's a weird really - like the adrenalin being sucked out of your body when you are not playing well away. I also believe that when a team falls behind, individual players break from the team first mode, not to be selfish, but to try to make something happen. When that happens, guys sometimes start playing outside of their ability and bad things happen.

Flat yes. Air sucked out of the room, yes. Sluggish play as a result, yes. But not trying - I don't buy it.

All you have to do is watch the games instead of Mullin. Trailing cutters, going under every pick, lackadaisical or completely out of control close outs, reaching for loose balls instead of sticking their noses in, lack of boxing out, very sporadic commitment to defense in general. Call it what you want, make excuses as you wish, this group of players are not committed to the tough stuff, except Owens. They generally play hardest when the ball is in their hands. When you are committed to winning on offense, wins are pretty but inconsistent. Defense keeps you in games and gives you a chance to win consistently unless you can just overwhelm with talent and we are not that good. Last point, don't confuse towel waving and cheerleading for hard play; the next time AA boxes someone out will be his first.

A good friend of mine was the long time coach at St Thomas Aquinas. At practice one day, he said to his team, "Here's a scenario for you: We are down 30 points with 8 minutes to play. IF you were on the court, what would you do?"

He expected a bunch of answers such as full court press, shorten our possessions, push the ball, etc, but the first kid who raised his hand responded seriously when he said "Get mine, coach." He thought it was hysterical but that is often the mindset of a kid towards the tail end of a huge loss. In those games, there is often lazy defense at the end and selfish play on offense.

To suggest that our kids do something like that from the get go is insulting to the players. We went in the hole early, and guys like Ahmed, Ponds, and Lovett will sometimes try to do too much, and take ill advised shots, gamble on defense putting them out of position, etc.

You want to be critical of our guys then you had better be critical of our coach, who if he saw what you saw, albeit in person, he should have read his guys the riot act and put in guys who wanted to play. You can't have it both ways. If you think our kids were lazy and selfish, then you had better put that on the coach for tolerating it.
I do. Even more so than on the players. Coach has to be demanding (see ie. the Knicks).
 
Bad game it happens time to move on.
One thing I will say is Ellison annoys me more than he doesn't. Don't mean to pick on one guy when we gave up 110 but it is how I feel.
Missed first couple minutes. Who were those terrible announcers? Two parents of Butler players?

Not sure if this was addressed as I work my way through the last few pages but one announcer was Jordan Cornette whose brother was on a Butler sweet 16 team in 2003 and he died this summer. His brother did talk about him a bit during the second half as it related to Woodson though I didn't understand what he was getting at, though by then I wasn't fully paying attention.




Apparently Woodson broke his brothers three point shooting record at Butler.
 
It's simply arithmetic people and facing the fact that the St. John's team doesn't have a clue about playing defense. Are you kidding me....110 points? We put 86 points on the board and got blown out. That's insane! It's also a clear indictment of coaching staff that doesn't have a clue...and some fans who actually think fancier talent is the only thing we need.
St. John's leads the Big East in blocked shots. There is hardly a size issue involved here. Nor an issue of lack of a coordinated athlete. Rebounding and position is an acquired skill. Blocks are great, but many times good defensive and rebounding position is sacrificed trying to record a block. I don't give a damn how well you might think Butler played. Surrendering 110 points is simply incompetence. There is absolutely no way that teams coached by Joe Lapchick, or Lou Carnesecca, could surrender that many. I have watched teams dribble right through this defense
all year long. Lay up after lay-up. Mullin is unable to analyze his own team's strengths and weaknesses. There are so many things that he is not really at liberty to do, given his existing talent, but he does them anyway There are several things he should do, that he doesn't even try.. This team cannot guard an opponent in the same way as say, Duke, guards an opponent. There's an absence of blue chip MacDonald's level athletes on the bench. But this is not CYO University either, and I believe he has serviceable athletes that could go much further in getting the job done. This team commits what appears to be way too many idiotic fouls in the course of a normal game. On court IQ is disturbingly low. Much of that is also being in the wrong place at the wrong time and failing to secure good defensive position. I have harped at length at how poor we play the pick and roll...fight over the top of picks, anticipate, use hands, etc. Our help defense has improved, but it's still seriously poor....way too many errors.Is there anyone who would deny that we absolutely suck at securing loose balls? Do you believe that's an accident? Ellison is in foul trouble every game. Do you think that isn't addressable with proper coaching and strategy? How many times a game are we going to step out, or catch the  ball of bounds? Why is Owens and Alibaba shooting from well beyond their respective range? Why is Ahmed shooting so many threes...he clearly has limited range. Why isn't there more of an effort to get him the ball off ball screens inside? Why would you begin a game with Lovett on the bench? Why hasn't Yakwe shown more improvement (are we practicing the right thing?)? Why are we pressing the ball full court with guards who practically have to play the entire game (and sometimes are in foul trouble)? What has happened to the Freudenberg (did you simply decide he is useless?) Why is Muscini even on the court? He can't guard anybody and he's essentially Matt Hooper without any size or physical presence! I don't know about you, but what I see is frequently a pattern of really stupid basketball. That's entirely on Chris Mullin and staff.
 
So what you are essentially saying Doc is add Chris Mullin's name to the list of the Cradle of Coaches we have had at St. John's University over the past 25 years. :(
 
I hope doc butler comments were based mainly on the disastrous showing vs Butler and not on the play for the prior month. The team has improved and we could have an outstanding backcourt next year with Owens becoming a big east caliber player, Clark and hopefully a newcomer providing rebounding help and the the Az transfer getting Ellison's minutes.
If Bashir can ever learn that if he gives the ball up he may get it back for an easier shot unlike in the JUCO leagues where once you give it up you never get it back we may have another big east player.The Butler game took a lot of wind out of our sails but let's see what happens over the next 5 or 6 games.
 
It's simply arithmetic people and facing the fact that the St. John's team doesn't have a clue about playing defense. Are you kidding me....110 points? We put 86 points on the board and got blown out. That's insane! It's also a clear indictment of coaching staff that doesn't have a clue...and some fans who actually think fancier talent is the only thing we need.
St. John's leads the Big East in blocked shots. There is hardly a size issue involved here. Nor an issue of lack of a coordinated athlete. Rebounding and position is an acquired skill. Blocks are great, but many times good defensive and rebounding position is sacrificed trying to record a block. I don't give a damn how well you might think Butler played. Surrendering 110 points is simply incompetence. There is absolutely no way that teams coached by Joe Lapchick, or Lou Carnesecca, could surrender that many. I have watched teams dribble right through this defense
all year long. Lay up after lay-up. Mullin is unable to analyze his own team's strengths and weaknesses. There are so many things that he is not really at liberty to do, given his existing talent, but he does them anyway There are several things he should do, that he doesn't even try.. This team cannot guard an opponent in the same way as say, Duke, guards an opponent. There's an absence of blue chip MacDonald's level athletes on the bench. But this is not CYO University either, and I believe he has serviceable athletes that could go much further in getting the job done. This team commits what appears to be way too many idiotic fouls in the course of a normal game. On court IQ is disturbingly low. Much of that is also being in the wrong place at the wrong time and failing to secure good defensive position. I have harped at length at how poor we play the pick and roll...fight over the top of picks, anticipate, use hands, etc. Our help defense has improved, but it's still seriously poor....way too many errors.Is there anyone who would deny that we absolutely suck at securing loose balls? Do you believe that's an accident? Ellison is in foul trouble every game. Do you think that isn't addressable with proper coaching and strategy? How many times a game are we going to step out, or catch the  ball of bounds? Why is Owens and Alibaba shooting from well beyond their respective range? Why is Ahmed shooting so many threes...he clearly has limited range. Why isn't there more of an effort to get him the ball off ball screens inside? Why would you begin a game with Lovett on the bench? Why hasn't Yakwe shown more improvement (are we practicing the right thing?)? Why are we pressing the ball full court with guards who practically have to play the entire game (and sometimes are in foul trouble)? What has happened to the Freudenberg (did you simply decide he is useless?) Why is Muscini even on the court? He can't guard anybody and he's essentially Matt Hooper without any size or physical presence! I don't know about you, but what I see is frequently a pattern of really stupid basketball. That's entirely on Chris Mullin and staff.

Not to stop your Tirade breh, but Lou Carnesca did give up 113 points to Syracuse. Secondly, Mussini is an efficient scorer he has his uses.
 
This is the season after last years disaster. We play some good games and some bad games. Butler beat Villanova this year as well. Oregon beat Arizona 85-58 and Arizona is the 5th ranked team in the nation. I could only imagine the reaction if we were ranked that high and lost by 27 points. Oh wait the Final Four team lost to Georgetown by 18.

Our defense and rebounding need work. Lets see how this season ends.
 
It's simply arithmetic people and facing the fact that the St. John's team doesn't have a clue about playing defense. Are you kidding me....110 points? We put 86 points on the board and got blown out. That's insane! It's also a clear indictment of coaching staff that doesn't have a clue...and some fans who actually think fancier talent is the only thing we need.
St. John's leads the Big East in blocked shots. There is hardly a size issue involved here. Nor an issue of lack of a coordinated athlete. Rebounding and position is an acquired skill. Blocks are great, but many times good defensive and rebounding position is sacrificed trying to record a block. I don't give a damn how well you might think Butler played. Surrendering 110 points is simply incompetence. There is absolutely no way that teams coached by Joe Lapchick, or Lou Carnesecca, could surrender that many. I have watched teams dribble right through this defense
all year long. Lay up after lay-up. Mullin is unable to analyze his own team's strengths and weaknesses. There are so many things that he is not really at liberty to do, given his existing talent, but he does them anyway There are several things he should do, that he doesn't even try.. This team cannot guard an opponent in the same way as say, Duke, guards an opponent. There's an absence of blue chip MacDonald's level athletes on the bench. But this is not CYO University either, and I believe he has serviceable athletes that could go much further in getting the job done. This team commits what appears to be way too many idiotic fouls in the course of a normal game. On court IQ is disturbingly low. Much of that is also being in the wrong place at the wrong time and failing to secure good defensive position. I have harped at length at how poor we play the pick and roll...fight over the top of picks, anticipate, use hands, etc. Our help defense has improved, but it's still seriously poor....way too many errors.Is there anyone who would deny that we absolutely suck at securing loose balls? Do you believe that's an accident? Ellison is in foul trouble every game. Do you think that isn't addressable with proper coaching and strategy? How many times a game are we going to step out, or catch the  ball of bounds? Why is Owens and Alibaba shooting from well beyond their respective range? Why is Ahmed shooting so many threes...he clearly has limited range. Why isn't there more of an effort to get him the ball off ball screens inside? Why would you begin a game with Lovett on the bench? Why hasn't Yakwe shown more improvement (are we practicing the right thing?)? Why are we pressing the ball full court with guards who practically have to play the entire game (and sometimes are in foul trouble)? What has happened to the Freudenberg (did you simply decide he is useless?) Why is Muscini even on the court? He can't guard anybody and he's essentially Matt Hooper without any size or physical presence! I don't know about you, but what I see is frequently a pattern of really stupid basketball. That's entirely on Chris Mullin and staff.

You question the staff a lot and if they see things and why they don't work on their weaknesses during practice. Trust me, if you see it and other fans see it, the staff sees it and is working in it. Progress and improvement doesn't come overnight. It takes plenty of time and repitition.

I don't wanna comment on each player you mentioned, but Mussini was arguably our best player against Butler, so I wouldn't exactly compare him to Hooper. His 45% 3pt% is one of the tops in the conference so there is definitely a place for him here.

Also you mentioned a regression in Yakwe. Much of that is seen with his poor hands this season, I'm pretty sure that isn't the staffs fault. It seems it's a confidence issue he is having. But his FT% is drastically better than last season so there was a lot of work put in there.
 
Doc, you forgot to mention the rebounding.

Since they suck at everything it is simply amazing that they managed to win six league games and are tied with a top 40 RPI team.
 
Doc, you forgot to mention the rebounding.

Since they suck at everything it is simply amazing that they managed to win six league games and are tied with a top 40 RPI team.
That's what happens when you play little to no D and have a carpet bombing offense-sometimes the bombs hit there targets and sometimes they don't. My friend's son goes to Fordham and informed me that in their last two wins they have given up a total of 85 points which he said is like a half for ST J's. Went to the Fordham home game vs Dayton and was impressed by their intense defense (I realize we blitzed them this season-kudos to Mo and his offense). Point is if we could be more demanding on playing more intense D perhaps we can win more games even if we are a bit off offensively.
 
Doc, you forgot to mention the rebounding.

Since they suck at everything it is simply amazing that they managed to win six league games and are tied with a top 40 RPI team.
That's what happens when you play little to no D and have a carpet bombing offense-sometimes the bombs hit there targets and sometimes they don't. My friend's son goes to Fordham and informed me that in their last two wins they have given up a total of 85 points which he said is like a half for ST J's. Went to the Fordham home game vs Dayton and was impressed by their intense defense (I realize we blitzed them this season-kudos to Mo and his offense). Point is if we could be more demanding on playing more intense D perhaps we can win more games even if we are a bit off offensively.

Point is their still learning and have played some good defensive games against good BE teams and a few lousy all around games. It is year one for this core group. They are going to implode on the road from time to time. They will never be a scrappy defensive team keeping scores in the fifties and winning games shooting 38% from the field. They hopefully will become consistent and improve from shooting in the 44% range to the 48 to 50% range and become a consistent winner at the BE level.
 
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