Butler Game

[monte]

I watched Butler lose to Nova and from that game I could tell that the Dunham shots that weren't falling for him then would fall when he played us. Just the type of player that hurts us. Nova forced him into many more difficult shots than we did. Plus a couple of his misses against Nova were in and out, that stayed in against us.

I have a hard time accepting this premise that he's "just the type of player that hurts us". Clearly he hurt us yesterday and didn't miss, even when we stayed with him. Last year, he didn't hurt us at all scoring 13 in each game and shooting about 40%. I think the difference is that he was on yesterday, and I think our defense has been slow, lacking energy, and lacking focus this week. If we don't bring our A game in terms of energy and focus, we'll have more nights like this.

With the guards now forced to play so many minutes, over time they will tire and be less effective defensively closing & helping out in all probability. I guess Felix,when healthy, will have to play a fair amount of time. Our main asset is scrappy defense. We are just running out of players to maximize that & force TOs & easy buckets. Pair that with limited scoring ability to complement D'Lo & the results seem obvious.

Just as an aside, late in the game there was a long TV timeout. I turned to my son, and said, this is great for our guys. They could really use the time to rest. Then I looked on the court, and there was the starting 5, standing around Lavin on the court, arms locked around each others shoulders, and looking fresh as daisies. For that reason, I don't ascribe to the tired legs theory on our late loss. They appear to all be superbly conditioned and capable of going 35 minutes or more.

I agree it was not a factor last night, but just have concerns over long haul. I suspect Lavin will meet with Jordan & his advisor shortly to see what transpires next.

Agreed. Also Butler was not the most athletic of teams. If Sheed doesn't return, needless to say its going to be tough moving forward, especially for a team that depends so heavily on its high intensity pressure D.

 

[Section3]

I watched Butler lose to Nova and from that game I could tell that the Dunham shots that weren't falling for him then would fall when he played us. Just the type of player that hurts us. Nova forced him into many more difficult shots than we did. Plus a couple of his misses against Nova were in and out, that stayed in against us.

I have a hard time accepting this premise that he's "just the type of player that hurts us". Clearly he hurt us yesterday and didn't miss, even when we stayed with him. Last year, he didn't hurt us at all scoring 13 in each game and shooting about 40%. I think the difference is that he was on yesterday, and I think our defense has been slow, lacking energy, and lacking focus this week. If we don't bring our A game in terms of energy and focus, we'll have more nights like this.

and, in fairness, some of his 3s were well behind the arc

 

[monte]

I watched Butler lose to Nova and from that game I could tell that the Dunham shots that weren't falling for him then would fall when he played us. Just the type of player that hurts us. Nova forced him into many more difficult shots than we did. Plus a couple of his misses against Nova were in and out, that stayed in against us.

I have a hard time accepting this premise that he's "just the type of player that hurts us". Clearly he hurt us yesterday and didn't miss, even when we stayed with him. Last year, he didn't hurt us at all scoring 13 in each game and shooting about 40%. I think the difference is that he was on yesterday, and I think our defense has been slow, lacking energy, and lacking focus this week. If we don't bring our A game in terms of energy and focus, we'll have more nights like this.

and, in fairness, some of his 3s were well behind the arc

Then play him well beyond the arc. Poor excuse.

 

[Section3]

I watched Butler lose to Nova and from that game I could tell that the Dunham shots that weren't falling for him then would fall when he played us. Just the type of player that hurts us. Nova forced him into many more difficult shots than we did. Plus a couple of his misses against Nova were in and out, that stayed in against us.

I have a hard time accepting this premise that he's "just the type of player that hurts us". Clearly he hurt us yesterday and didn't miss, even when we stayed with him. Last year, he didn't hurt us at all scoring 13 in each game and shooting about 40%. I think the difference is that he was on yesterday, and I think our defense has been slow, lacking energy, and lacking focus this week. If we don't bring our A game in terms of energy and focus, we'll have more nights like this.

and, in fairness, some of his 3s were well behind the arc

Then play him well beyond the arc. Poor excuse.

ok..will take it under advisement

 

[Russ2374]

firing fran and not getting cal was the beginning of the end. hiring jarvis and then norm finished us off

Firing Fran was not a mistake, he was not a particularly good coach, and a much worse person, not to mention, a ticking time bomb. Jarvis was 110-61 at St. John's, got us to the dance three times, and won the NIT. While it was right to cut ties with him (they should not have done it during the season, after 6 games), the hiring of Norm Roberts, a coach with absolutely no track record, who holds a career coaching record of 105-185, and yet was somehow allowed to remain at St.John's for SIX YEARS, was undoubtedly the death blow to this program. It's really not even debatable.

i would agree fran wasn't a great coach but he was a good recruiter. jarvis won because he had frans players. jarvis was too lazy to recruit,, he expected players would flock to him like he was calipari. and we wound up with grady reynolds ans wille shaw. but i do agree that hiring norm was the final dagger in the program

Willie Shaw was a top 100 recruit. So was Kyle Cuffe, Mo Diakate, Eric King and Abe Keita, Jarivs also got Elijiah Ingraham and Omar Cook, both MCAAs. Plus Marcus Hatten, Darryl Hill and Lamont Hamilton. Pretty sure he also got commits from Ced Jackson and Rodney epperson, amongst others. Say what you want about Jarivs, like every other coach he was able to bring in highly ranked recruits

With all due respect, most of those players weren't very good regardless of ranking. Only Hatten was a star and none of those guys were pros. Jarvis also lost kids in our backyard at a time when NYC and Long Island produced better players. Ben Gordon, Jason Fraser, AJ Price, Russell Robinson, etc.

Norm got good (not great players) but started with nothing just like Lavin had to. Jarvis inherited a great team and rode it into the ground. No comparison really!

 

[beast of the east]

I watched Butler lose to Nova and from that game I could tell that the Dunham shots that weren't falling for him then would fall when he played us. Just the type of player that hurts us. Nova forced him into many more difficult shots than we did. Plus a couple of his misses against Nova were in and out, that stayed in against us.

I have a hard time accepting this premise that he's "just the type of player that hurts us". Clearly he hurt us yesterday and didn't miss, even when we stayed with him. Last year, he didn't hurt us at all scoring 13 in each game and shooting about 40%. I think the difference is that he was on yesterday, and I think our defense has been slow, lacking energy, and lacking focus this week. If we don't bring our A game in terms of energy and focus, we'll have more nights like this.

With the guards now forced to play so many minutes, over time they will tire and be less effective defensively closing & helping out in all probability. I guess Felix,when healthy, will have to play a fair amount of time. Our main asset is scrappy defense. We are just running out of players to maximize that & force TOs & easy buckets. Pair that with limited scoring ability to complement D'Lo & the results seem obvious.

Just as an aside, late in the game there was a long TV timeout. I turned to my son, and said, this is great for our guys. They could really use the time to rest. Then I looked on the court, and there was the starting 5, standing around Lavin on the court, arms locked around each others shoulders, and looking fresh as daisies. For that reason, I don't ascribe to the tired legs theory on our late loss. They appear to all be superbly conditioned and capable of going 35 minutes or more.

I agree it was not a factor last night, but just have concerns over long haul. I suspect Lavin will meet with Jordan & his advisor shortly to see what transpires next.

Our depth is without a doubt an Achilles heal with Jordan on the roster. Without him, I can't see us getting through the Big East season with more than 8 wins or so, and right now that seems optimistic.

 

[beast of the east]

firing fran and not getting cal was the beginning of the end. hiring jarvis and then norm finished us off

Firing Fran was not a mistake, he was not a particularly good coach, and a much worse person, not to mention, a ticking time bomb. Jarvis was 110-61 at St. John's, got us to the dance three times, and won the NIT. While it was right to cut ties with him (they should not have done it during the season, after 6 games), the hiring of Norm Roberts, a coach with absolutely no track record, who holds a career coaching record of 105-185, and yet was somehow allowed to remain at St.John's for SIX YEARS, was undoubtedly the death blow to this program. It's really not even debatable.

i would agree fran wasn't a great coach but he was a good recruiter. jarvis won because he had frans players. jarvis was too lazy to recruit,, he expected players would flock to him like he was calipari. and we wound up with grady reynolds ans wille shaw. but i do agree that hiring norm was the final dagger in the program

Willie Shaw was a top 100 recruit. So was Kyle Cuffe, Mo Diakate, Eric King and Abe Keita, Jarivs also got Elijiah Ingraham and Omar Cook, both MCAAs. Plus Marcus Hatten, Darryl Hill and Lamont Hamilton. Pretty sure he also got commits from Ced Jackson and Rodney epperson, amongst others. Say what you want about Jarivs, like every other coach he was able to bring in highly ranked recruits

Norm got good (not great players) but started with nothing just like Lavin had to. Jarvis inherited a great team and rode it into the ground. No comparison really!

Not sure what your point is. Lav in took a senior laden team, minus Anthony Mason Jr., and transformed a first round NIT loser into an NCAA bid team. And the roster he was left with left him barren for year two. how many programs can fill 8 or nine slots in one class with any quality? Duke, Kentucky, UNC? not SJU

 

[JackofVirginia]

After Dunham's 4th successful 3 pt shot, the announcers stated, and showed the corresponding clips, clearly illustrating that on 3 of the 4 successful shots, he was not pressured at all by a SJU player, and the 4th successful shot was completed against token, at best, pressure.

To quote Lavin, "The last two games our three point defense was not at the level it needs to be for us to be successful." Duh! Then smarten up and play man defense. Nova was in Dunham's jock strap and forced him to take fade away jumpers. As I posted before yesterdays game , don't let Dunham and Barlow beat you. Is anyone listening?

 

[beast of the east]

Harrison played a great game today, and nearly carried the team on his back. Butler was able to shake off most of our defensive pressure, and made FTs down the stretch, with #24 making the big three when Harrison slipped. Sellout crowd. We didn't play badly and Butler played a solid game.

Harrison slipped because he was rushing back into position after covering for Branch who for about the 65th time in the game dove for a steal at midcourt.He made Barlow a scorer just like Jordan did with Sina against SHU.

As I expressed earlier, our pressure defense did not faze either Seton Hall or Butler.

 

[monte]

firing fran and not getting cal was the beginning of the end. hiring jarvis and then norm finished us off

Firing Fran was not a mistake, he was not a particularly good coach, and a much worse person, not to mention, a ticking time bomb. Jarvis was 110-61 at St. John's, got us to the dance three times, and won the NIT. While it was right to cut ties with him (they should not have done it during the season, after 6 games), the hiring of Norm Roberts, a coach with absolutely no track record, who holds a career coaching record of 105-185, and yet was somehow allowed to remain at St.John's for SIX YEARS, was undoubtedly the death blow to this program. It's really not even debatable.

i would agree fran wasn't a great coach but he was a good recruiter. jarvis won because he had frans players. jarvis was too lazy to recruit,, he expected players would flock to him like he was calipari. and we wound up with grady reynolds ans wille shaw. but i do agree that hiring norm was the final dagger in the program

Willie Shaw was a top 100 recruit. So was Kyle Cuffe, Mo Diakate, Eric King and Abe Keita, Jarivs also got Elijiah Ingraham and Omar Cook, both MCAAs. Plus Marcus Hatten, Darryl Hill and Lamont Hamilton. Pretty sure he also got commits from Ced Jackson and Rodney epperson, amongst others. Say what you want about Jarivs, like every other coach he was able to bring in highly ranked recruits

With all due respect, most of those players weren't very good regardless of ranking. Only Hatten was a star and none of those guys were pros. Jarvis also lost kids in our backyard at a time when NYC and Long Island produced better players. Ben Gordon, Jason Fraser, AJ Price, Russell Robinson, etc.

Norm got good (not great players) but started with nothing just like Lavin had to. Jarvis inherited a great team and rode it into the ground. No comparison really!

With all due respect right back at you Russ, my post was not about what Jarvis did to the program, it was about how he was able to get top 100 kids here in spite of his laziness and attitude. And when you say "no comparison really"? What exactly are you talking about? I wasn't comparing anything. Agreed that many of those kids underachieved, that that does not change the fact that they were all pretty highly ranked and recruited out of High School, which was my point to begin with. And I beg to differ on the contributions of some of those kids. Yes Hatten was the only real star, but Cook(for his one year), Hamilton, Hill were all very good college players. As was Ced Jackson, although at Cleveland St after he transferred. He actually had a cup of coffee in the NBA. As for pros, many of those kids had nice careers overseas. The fact of the matter is that we have a history of successfully recruiting kids here, and there's no reason in the world why that shouldn't continue, regardless of who the coach is.

 

[mjmaherjr]

firing fran and not getting cal was the beginning of the end. hiring jarvis and then norm finished us off

Firing Fran was not a mistake, he was not a particularly good coach, and a much worse person, not to mention, a ticking time bomb. Jarvis was 110-61 at St. John's, got us to the dance three times, and won the NIT. While it was right to cut ties with him (they should not have done it during the season, after 6 games), the hiring of Norm Roberts, a coach with absolutely no track record, who holds a career coaching record of 105-185, and yet was somehow allowed to remain at St.John's for SIX YEARS, was undoubtedly the death blow to this program. It's really not even debatable.

i would agree fran wasn't a great coach but he was a good recruiter. jarvis won because he had frans players. jarvis was too lazy to recruit,, he expected players would flock to him like he was calipari. and we wound up with grady reynolds ans wille shaw. but i do agree that hiring norm was the final dagger in the program

Willie Shaw was a top 100 recruit. So was Kyle Cuffe, Mo Diakate, Eric King and Abe Keita, Jarivs also got Elijiah Ingraham and Omar Cook, both MCAAs. Plus Marcus Hatten, Darryl Hill and Lamont Hamilton. Pretty sure he also got commits from Ced Jackson and Rodney epperson, amongst others. Say what you want about Jarivs, like every other coach he was able to bring in highly ranked recruits

With all due respect, most of those players weren't very good regardless of ranking. Only Hatten was a star and none of those guys were pros. Jarvis also lost kids in our backyard at a time when NYC and Long Island produced better players. Ben Gordon, Jason Fraser, AJ Price, Russell Robinson, etc.

Norm got good (not great players) but started with nothing just like Lavin had to. Jarvis inherited a great team and rode it into the ground. No comparison really!

With all due respect right back at you Russ, my post was not about what Jarvis did to the program, it was about how he was able to get top 100 kids here in spite of his laziness and attitude. And when you say "no comparison really"? What exactly are you talking about? I wasn't comparing anything. Agreed that many of those kids underachieved, that that does not change the fact that they were all pretty highly ranked and recruited out of High School, which was my point to begin with. And I beg to differ on the contributions of some of those kids. Yes Hatten was the only real star, but Cook(for his one year), Hamilton, Hill were all very good college players. As was Ced Jackson, although at Cleveland St after he transferred. He actually had a cup of coffee in the NBA. As for pros, many of those kids had nice careers overseas. The fact of the matter is that we have a history of successfully recruiting kids here, and there's no reason in the world why that shouldn't continue, regardless of who the coach is.

Ced Jax was a Norm kid. Actually was one of his first recruits I think

 

[JackofVirginia]

in 45 years of watching bball this is the worse half court offense I have ever seen ..EVER SEEN it is sad to watch

What offense? You mean passing the ball back and forth as if Butler was playing a zone. And we are back to holding the ball until the time runs out. Will someone tell Lavin that when Obekpa or Pointer set a high pick for D'LO and he is doubled teamed they are opened for a pass.
I would like to know who coached Purdue when Keady was there? Surely I would expect that he would have helped Lavin with setting up an offense. Or am I wrong?

 

[Chris7]

Anyone notice the attitude CO gives Branch each and every time? What's up with that?

 

[Amaseinyourface]

Anyone notice the attitude CO gives Branch each and every time? What's up with that?

Their difference in bball iq is measurable.

 

[monte]

firing fran and not getting cal was the beginning of the end. hiring jarvis and then norm finished us off

Firing Fran was not a mistake, he was not a particularly good coach, and a much worse person, not to mention, a ticking time bomb. Jarvis was 110-61 at St. John's, got us to the dance three times, and won the NIT. While it was right to cut ties with him (they should not have done it during the season, after 6 games), the hiring of Norm Roberts, a coach with absolutely no track record, who holds a career coaching record of 105-185, and yet was somehow allowed to remain at St.John's for SIX YEARS, was undoubtedly the death blow to this program. It's really not even debatable.

i would agree fran wasn't a great coach but he was a good recruiter. jarvis won because he had frans players. jarvis was too lazy to recruit,, he expected players would flock to him like he was calipari. and we wound up with grady reynolds ans wille shaw. but i do agree that hiring norm was the final dagger in the program

Willie Shaw was a top 100 recruit. So was Kyle Cuffe, Mo Diakate, Eric King and Abe Keita, Jarivs also got Elijiah Ingraham and Omar Cook, both MCAAs. Plus Marcus Hatten, Darryl Hill and Lamont Hamilton. Pretty sure he also got commits from Ced Jackson and Rodney epperson, amongst others. Say what you want about Jarivs, like every other coach he was able to bring in highly ranked recruits

With all due respect, most of those players weren't very good regardless of ranking. Only Hatten was a star and none of those guys were pros. Jarvis also lost kids in our backyard at a time when NYC and Long Island produced better players. Ben Gordon, Jason Fraser, AJ Price, Russell Robinson, etc.

Norm got good (not great players) but started with nothing just like Lavin had to. Jarvis inherited a great team and rode it into the ground. No comparison really!

With all due respect right back at you Russ, my post was not about what Jarvis did to the program, it was about how he was able to get top 100 kids here in spite of his laziness and attitude. And when you say "no comparison really"? What exactly are you talking about? I wasn't comparing anything. Agreed that many of those kids underachieved, that that does not change the fact that they were all pretty highly ranked and recruited out of High School, which was my point to begin with. And I beg to differ on the contributions of some of those kids. Yes Hatten was the only real star, but Cook(for his one year), Hamilton, Hill were all very good college players. As was Ced Jackson, although at Cleveland St after he transferred. He actually had a cup of coffee in the NBA. As for pros, many of those kids had nice careers overseas. The fact of the matter is that we have a history of successfully recruiting kids here, and there's no reason in the world why that shouldn't continue, regardless of who the coach is.

Ced Jax was a Norm kid. Actually was one of his first recruits I think

Thanks for the correction and in that case let no one say that Norm couldn't recruit NBA level talent

 

[ipd200]

Home teams are 9-1 so far in conference play. St. John's only home loss so far.

 

[Russ2374]

With all due respect, most of those players weren't very good regardless of ranking. Only Hatten was a star and none of those guys were pros. Jarvis also lost kids in our backyard at a time when NYC and Long Island produced better players. Ben Gordon, Jason Fraser, AJ Price, Russell Robinson, etc.

Norm got good (not great players) but started with nothing just like Lavin had to. Jarvis inherited a great team and rode it into the ground. No comparison really![/quote]

With all due respect right back at you Russ, my post was not about what Jarvis did to the program, it was about how he was able to get top 100 kids here in spite of his laziness and attitude. And when you say "no comparison really"? What exactly are you talking about? I wasn't comparing anything. Agreed that many of those kids underachieved, that that does not change the fact that they were all pretty highly ranked and recruited out of High School, which was my point to begin with. And I beg to differ on the contributions of some of those kids. Yes Hatten was the only real star, but Cook(for his one year), Hamilton, Hill were all very good college players. As was Ced Jackson, although at Cleveland St after he transferred. He actually had a cup of coffee in the NBA. As for pros, many of those kids had nice careers overseas. The fact of the matter is that we have a history of successfully recruiting kids here, and there's no reason in the world why that shouldn't continue, regardless of who the coach is.[/quote]

Okay then I misunderstood you. I agree the head coach of St John's (regardless of who they are) should be able to recruit reasonably well as long as they work hard. I don't think St John's is an easy sell for the elite prospects though. Jarvis and Norm couldn't even get us to the table with those guys so that's why I said there was no comparison. At least we're in the conversation now. Things obviously need to improve though and I'm just as concerned as anyone with our future. In order to be an elite program we have to hold our coach and admin to a higher standard than our most recent failures. I wish we had a couple more local players and a more balanced roster with freshmen and sophomore contributers who we could expect to step up next year. That's obviously on the staff. Hopefully the team gets back on track and it helps us sign some good players late.

 

[beast of the east]

Home teams are 9-1 so far in conference play. St. John's only home loss so far.

It's always hard to figure out if your opponent played well, or your team helped them look good. I will say that both Seton Hall and Butler played very well against us. Butler outrebounded us 30-23, made 48% of their shots (we made 46%) but also made 58% of their 3's. I don't think even at full strength do we make 58% of our threes wide open in practice. Dunham was the kind of opponent you'd love to hate, but he played a near perfect game for Butler including being composed and quiet - all done without fanfare. their other guard, 5-11 Bartow, also played a perfect game as well - 15 pts and 6 rebounds, making perfect decisions to take it to the hole when we were napping. They are well coached, and them winning on our floor was no fluke.

 

[Russ2374]

Home teams are 9-1 so far in conference play. St. John's only home loss so far.

It's always hard to figure out if your opponent played well, or your team helped them look good. I will say that both Seton Hall and Butler played very well against us. Butler outrebounded us 30-23, made 48% of their shots (we made 46%) but also made 58% of their 3's. I don't think even at full strength do we make 58% of our threes wide open in practice. Dunham was the kind of opponent you'd love to hate, but he played a near perfect game for Butler including being composed and quiet - all done without fanfare. their other guard, 5-11 Bartow, also played a perfect game as well - 15 pts and 6 rebounds, making perfect decisions to take it to the hole when we were napping. They are well coached, and them winning on our floor was no fluke.

Butler is not a bad team at all. They beat North Carolina and Georgetown already. That being said it was a bad loss for us at home. We will need to beat them now at their place to make up for it.

 

[SJU1512]

Really appreciate the effort from the players on Saturday. Effectively playing with a 5 man rotation is almost not doable against this type of competition, and they almost pulled it off.

With Rysheed it's probably a W, and that's unfortunate knowing how precious every game is for this group's hopes this season. Need to go 11-5 to get to 11-7 in conference, and that's a tall order. A win against Nova would really inject some life back into this season, but will be making that attempt after two games in five days where the minutes ask of the starters was enormous. Nova had the same schedule, but has a much more balanced and typical 8-man rotation. We'll have to dig deep to summon what it will take to win this game, and the crowd could really do us a solid here.

Difficult to provide any critique under Saturday's circumstances, but the defensive approach the last two games has defied logic. Alex Barlow is probably not a Big East player. All you have to do is stay in front of him and he's going east/west all game. The only way he can beat you north/south is if you gamble, which plays right into his strengths of ball protection and good decision making.

With this in mind we spent almost 40 minutes on Saturday trying to pick his pocket 35+ feet from the basket, which lead to defensive breakdowns all over the place. And for what? He turned the ball over once, late in the game, on a bad pass. Zero turn overs off the dribble. Down the stretch he got two of the most uncontested layups he'll see all season, and the dagger from Dunham came because D'Angelo - probably tired of watching the uncontested layups - helped after yet another gamble at half court on Barlow.

I am all for us speeding up the game, but there is not a single team in the conference who is going to succumb to that kind of unintelligent pressure. You have to play solid defense first, and pick your spots to take chances within that context. If I were the staff, I would put a line of tape across the court 25 feet from the basket on both ends today. Make everyone play D inside that line. Because Arcidiacano is going to DESTROY us tomorrow night if we try the same nonsense on him we tried on Barlow and Sina/Gibbs the last two games.