Be patient
- Thread starter Redmen1992
- Start date
beast of the east
Active member
Did many of us expect this team to be in mid-season form right out of the gate? Not many - it isn't a realistic expectation.
Did we expect there to be a semblance of improvement game to game, some cohesiveness on the court, or any indication that the team practices together? Yes.
It's okay to be patient in waiting for a final product that could be vastly better than this, but with each passing game we'd like to see indications on the floor that we are getting ready for a competitive schedule.
Did we expect there to be a semblance of improvement game to game, some cohesiveness on the court, or any indication that the team practices together? Yes.
It's okay to be patient in waiting for a final product that could be vastly better than this, but with each passing game we'd like to see indications on the floor that we are getting ready for a competitive schedule.
So,to the guys who are frustrated with the patient posters, do you want Lavin fired now, at the end of the season, or should he have been let go at the end of last season? What exactly do you want? What is it that, in your opinion, would preserve the prestige of the program?
My patience is based on the fact that we are 6 games into a season. We have lost one game that we should have won and one that we possibly could have won against an excellent Wisconsin team. I don't really give a crap about how badly we played in games that we won against weaker opponents. The fact is we won them. Posters are upset over a disastrous season that hasn't happened yet. Perhaps some are prescient. I'm not. I will wait for the terrible season to be done (or at least clearly apparent) before I start screaming about it.
My patience is based on the fact that we are 6 games into a season. We have lost one game that we should have won and one that we possibly could have won against an excellent Wisconsin team. I don't really give a crap about how badly we played in games that we won against weaker opponents. The fact is we won them. Posters are upset over a disastrous season that hasn't happened yet. Perhaps some are prescient. I'm not. I will wait for the terrible season to be done (or at least clearly apparent) before I start screaming about it.
I will support Lavin until the day that he is no longer the SJU coach. Does that mean I would rather support him than see a successful program? No. I just want to know what the detractors are asking to happen. Do they just want optimistic posters to turn negative or do they want something more concrete be done by the administration? If so, when?
I've gotta disagree. Tremendous improvement? Our defense in the Penn State game was no better than it was in the Wisconsin game, we covered 3pt shooters slightly better but people dribble right past us. Monmouth and Bucknell were driving to the basket against us. We legitimately have a hard time staying in front out our man.
With that said though - you are right, it's only 7 games in. And there's plenty of time for improvement.
beast of the east
Active member
You were absolutely mesmerized by the success of the press against a not very good Georgia Tech team. Our defense is not tremendously improved - a very good team (like Wisconsin) will slice it to ribbons at this point.
Class of 72
Active member
Simplyred, we all bleed red here and have been buying season tickets and supporting the team through multiple coaching fiascos. Brian Mahoney, although a wonderful person, was a one season phenom. The first mistake was to hire an assistant with no proven ability to coach. That was evidenced at Manhattan College. Fran Fraschilla was a great recruiter for SJU and had us on the right track. We will never know what could have been a terrific career at SJU. Mike Jarvis was a good coach and ran tight practices. Lesson learned is never ever fire a coach mid season.
Norm Roberts was a huge gamble and big mistake----see Brian Mahoney. All of those chioces I lay at the feet of a poorly run athletic administration under the Vincentians.
Steve Lavin was not a mistake. The program got a "name coach" who was very successful both in recruiting and getting to the dance. He signed some recruits that would never consider SJ and people were talking about us again. Year one was as successful as any here would have hoped. Then misfortune struck and we struggled without a coach with very young players. No problem. Last year was supposed to be a turning point. The coach was back, the team had promise and then player issues began before the Big East imploded. No Sanchez, no God's Gift and ultimately, no Harrison.
The season with a very young Obekpa alone in the middle and mediocre guard play led to a lackluster season.
Fast-forward to the summer of 2013 and we are a complete team full of promise. The only problem is the European tour left us with more questions than answers about team chemistry and potential. We beat a couple of junior colege level teams but were pasted by good competition. Hey at the least the team got to travel and get to know each other better.
None of us want to see Lavin fired even given the above scenarios but we want him to know we are not happy with the product on the court, the player issues, the slow player development and the inability to bring in a top shelf assistant.
The coaches read these views and should improve their approach to coaching accordingly. I frankly did not know coach Whitesell from a hole in the wall and the last assistant hired in L.A., another UCLA grad, is a mystery. During games Lavin consults with Rico more than Whitesell at times, Another mystery. There seems to be little synergy with the staff. That may be affecting the product. My feeling is we need a bright aggressive assistant to help right the ship, both in recruiting and practices. Hopefully we are keeping our options open. Between the fans and media Luke warm reviews our hope is the coaches and players get the message and start working harder and smarter.
I didn't know Whitesell either before the talk about him being hired but everyone who knew him sings praises about his abilities. SLU fans are still bemoaning the fact that they lost him. I suggest we give him a bit of time to prove his worth. Three months may not be enough for an accurate assessment. As for the other coaches, two have NBA experience and NBA players come to our campus to work out with them. I don't know enough to suggest that those players are idiots. The other has been credited with bringing in some of our best recruits. Who should we replace, and with whom?
It's easy to complain that something isn't good enough but unless you have a better alternative, sometimes it's best to stick with what you have. Respectfully, 72, all the gripes in your post seem to be based on the Euro tour and the first 6 games. Per you: First year was better than anticipated. Second year was an unexpected misfortune. Last year was due to player issues. Is Lavin to blame? Debatable. This year, the Euro tour and early season are all we have to go on. Sit back and relax. Let's see,where we are in January and February before we pass judgment on this year's body of work.
It's easy to complain that something isn't good enough but unless you have a better alternative, sometimes it's best to stick with what you have. Respectfully, 72, all the gripes in your post seem to be based on the Euro tour and the first 6 games. Per you: First year was better than anticipated. Second year was an unexpected misfortune. Last year was due to player issues. Is Lavin to blame? Debatable. This year, the Euro tour and early season are all we have to go on. Sit back and relax. Let's see,where we are in January and February before we pass judgment on this year's body of work.
Class of 72
Active member
We have no choice but to wait and see. The point many are making is the lack of readiness for games and that unfortunately goes back to last season and did not start with the Euro tour. I am willing to give Whitesell the benefit of the doubt since he at least has an extensive resume. Tony is a good recruiter. The other guys are one-to-specialists and I have yet to see their impact on any player. Think of our "reviews" of the staff similar to the reviews a Board of Directors gives a management team at a firm. You hope the message inspires harder work and smarter work. That is all a fan can do. We all want to see an improved product because the future of the league will depend on teams like SJ, Marquette, Villanova and GTown to maintain NCAA tourney caliber staff and play. We have lagged near the bottom too many years to have endless patience with improvement. Most elite coaches should be able to turn around programs in four years given the resources. We have provided the resources. Time to deliver...this year and next, at minimum.
jumbo_peanuts
Active member
Are you implying that Lavin and his staff reads this site (which they very well may), and that they should listen/adjust to what people say on this site?
Class of 72
Active member
You quoted the wrong poster! That suggestion was a "wish" and a "prayer". Lavin may not listen to his own Hall of Fame advisor for all we know! But a good CEO better listen to his customer's views of his product. If people stop buying and the seats become empty that does not bode well for the either the CEO or the company. Although just a sport played by college kids, this is a big business with a large investment and not some high school team with a free sneakers from Nike.
jumbo_peanuts
Active member
If you think that good CEO's should listen to what their customers have to say, then you are sorely mistaken. For starters, you are never going to be able to please everyone, so you can't keep making adjustments all of the time just because of a few upset people. Also, what are the customers qualifications to view/critique his product? I've never played football a day in my life, so if I wrote Tom Coughlin and was complaining about how I was unhappy with the Giants and offered suggestions on how I would do things differently, do you think he would listen to me?? Do you honestly think that Pepsi's CEO really cares what Joe Smith from middle of nowhere, Utah really thinks about Pepsi?
So why would/should Lavin listen to what his 'customers' have to say? His 'customers' are not at every practice, his 'customers' are not watching film, scouting, etc........How do you think this would go over in a post game interview: quote from Steve Lavin, "Well we decided to press more because the other day I was reading redmen.com and a poster named 'Class of 72' recommended it, so I decided to give it a shot." And you can use the empty seat reasoning all you want, but guess what? It is not Steve Lavin's job to improve the bottom line. It is not his job to sell seats. He does not have 'customers'. His job is to win basketball games.
westchesterjoe
Active member
No, Lavin nor any Coach is likely to listen to fans posting on a website... But,if you were to poll Lavin peers in Coaching skills, game adjustments, player improvement, etc, You would likely get a lot of the same analysis that our fans are observing....The poll results would have to be anonymous since no Coach ever speaks ill of another. Usually.
Lavin's rep does not inspire fear in opposing COACHES.. i think many of them, not just the elite level ones, feel very comfortable in competing against Steve's teams and have throughout his career, at UCLA and here.
His style, if there is one, is hard to define.. And, you don't see a lot of Coaching impact on player's performance.. If you see him on the sidelines, you don't have a sense there is much going on there but, the quick hook..
For me, I began to question his in game Coaching in the NCAA game against Gonzaga a few years ago. He seemed way out of his league against Mark Few and did not have any answers to stem the tide in a lop side loss.. The Hardy team, in my opinion should have been better prepared and able to deal with what Gonzaga was doing strategically. Of course, we had no DJ Kennedy in that game but, it was more than playing one starter down
Lavin's rep does not inspire fear in opposing COACHES.. i think many of them, not just the elite level ones, feel very comfortable in competing against Steve's teams and have throughout his career, at UCLA and here.
His style, if there is one, is hard to define.. And, you don't see a lot of Coaching impact on player's performance.. If you see him on the sidelines, you don't have a sense there is much going on there but, the quick hook..
For me, I began to question his in game Coaching in the NCAA game against Gonzaga a few years ago. He seemed way out of his league against Mark Few and did not have any answers to stem the tide in a lop side loss.. The Hardy team, in my opinion should have been better prepared and able to deal with what Gonzaga was doing strategically. Of course, we had no DJ Kennedy in that game but, it was more than playing one starter down
All coaches get spanked at one point or another.... What did you think about him in the 21 wins and beating quite a few ranked teams (they spanked a few, as well) that same season?
If you go by the games, in which he's coached since being at St. John's (he coached 4 games in the 2011-2012 season, and went 2-2).... He's 45-32. He was 145-78 at UCLA. That's an overall record of 190-110.
Those are facts.