Anderson - is he really the guy ?

[redmannorth]

I have seen very few posters calling for CMA's firing. I see a fair amount of extremely reasonable(and right now, emotionally charged) posters having a conversation about whether or not CMA is the right man to right this ship. Just to clarify for all of you who think this is a reaction to one bad loss; it ain't. It's the culmination of 20+ years of futility and frustration. As is usually the case, the title of the thread is a good indicator of the subject matter. You think it's to early be having this conversation, that's fine, don't join in. Or you want to defend CMA, that's cool too. We all want him to succeed here, desperately. But for the love of God, unless you're a mod, please stop telling others what they should and shouldn't be discussing(within the boundaries of board rules). 

Gréât post Monte but i honestly do not believe that this thread is the result of 20 years of futility and frustration but rather the disappointment of a group of very committed fans who gave CMA two seasons and watched each of those teams exceed expectations. As previously said we had the COY, the ROY, the DPOY and should have had the POY all returning. We had a very deep and solid team with experience returning, so by all accounts and rightfully so we were excited for this season, we had expectations to finish in the top half of the league and to dance and hopefully win our first tournament game in 20 years.  Well then there was a mass exodus which set us back but the new talent that was coming in we were repeatedly told was much better than the group that left. So the renewed optimism set in. Mathis would replace Earlington, Wheeler was killing it over the summer and could certainly replace Moore up front. Dunn and Williams could easily be replaced by Smith, Coburn, Pinzon. We all read what was said and drank the koolaid. Well the koolaid has not been as sweet as advertised. The only position I believe we improved is Soriano over Roberts. The rest have not outperformed last years key group of players that left. On top of that the team lacks energy and focus to quote CMA and the coach has certainly made some very questionable coaching decisions  to date. So for all of those reasons, all of which I deem to be valid and not an overreaction, you have a very disappointed or concerned fan base. 

 

[JD0871]

No NCAA’s = No job….. enough of this shit already.

 

[Las Vegan]

The reason we are even having this discussion this early in the season, I think, is because the last 20 plus years has made many of us to expect to be disappointed. Also, in Louie's day, including Mulzoff's three years, you had a head coach and two assistants, at a cost of under $100 thousand. Now, you have a head coach, three assistants, special advisors, directors, coordinators, etc, with a budget of near $3.5 million. It just seems like a poor return on investment.
I hope things work out with this staff, but if it does not, it will mean the school has had to buy out seven consecutive coaches. That's got to be an NCAA record.

Actually, you are wrong about 7 consecutive coaches getting bought out.

OK, we've dismissed our last six coaches, each with time remaining on his contract. Which of the six did not get a buy out?  The seventh would obviously be the current coach.
 

 

[Ray Morgan]

It requires a thought process that is foreign to too many posters, but there seems to be little acceptance of the plight every coach so far, and probably any future coach, faces at St. John's. There is so much competition for top level recruits, and far too many inherent factors in the university and basketball program that hinder our ability to compete. We all know what they are. There are positives, too, or at least we want to think so. So the real question is there an elite coach who would come here, especially knowing that they will be expected to run a clean program, and do so with lesser facilities and for less money than they had at their previous job. And if they accepted those terms, would they be able to recruit the level of talent needed to succeed at a very high level?  These are questions that very few of us want to even consider.
 

 

[JohnnyFan]

It requires a thought process that is foreign to too many posters, but there seems to be little acceptance of the plight every coach so far, and probably any future coach, faces at St. John's. There is so much competition for top level recruits, and far too many inherent factors in the university and basketball program that hinder our ability to compete. We all know what they are. There are positives, too, or at least we want to think so. So the real question is there an elite coach who would come here, especially knowing that they will be expected to run a clean program, and do so with lesser facilities and for less money than they had at their previous job. And if they accepted those terms, would they be able to recruit the level of talent needed to succeed at a very high level?  These are questions that very few of us want to even consider.

 

I think this is a fair point.  However, there are comparative programs having success.  Look no further than Seton Hall, which has lousy facilities.   I agree, the margin of error is slim, but it is possible. 

 

[JohnnyFan]

I have seen very few posters calling for CMA's firing. I see a fair amount of extremely reasonable(and right now, emotionally charged) posters having a conversation about whether or not CMA is the right man to right this ship. Just to clarify for all of you who think this is a reaction to one bad loss; it ain't. It's the culmination of 20+ years of futility and frustration. As is usually the case, the title of the thread is a good indicator of the subject matter. You think it's to early be having this conversation, that's fine, don't join in. Or you want to defend CMA, that's cool too. We all want him to succeed here, desperately. But for the love of God, unless you're a mod, please stop telling others what they should and shouldn't be discussing(within the boundaries of board rules). 

Gréât post Monte but i honestly do not believe that this thread is the result of 20 years of futility and frustration but rather the disappointment of a group of very committed fans who gave CMA two seasons and watched each of those teams exceed expectations. As previously said we had the COY, the ROY, the DPOY and should have had the POY all returning. We had a very deep and solid team with experience returning, so by all accounts and rightfully so we were excited for this season, we had expectations to finish in the top half of the league and to dance and hopefully win our first tournament game in 20 years.  Well then there was a mass exodus which set us back but the new talent that was coming in we were repeatedly told was much better than the group that left. So the renewed optimism set in. Mathis would replace Earlington, Wheeler was killing it over the summer and could certainly replace Moore up front. Dunn and Williams could easily be replaced by Smith, Coburn, Pinzon. We all read what was said and drank the koolaid. Well the koolaid has not been as sweet as advertised. The only position I believe we improved is Soriano over Roberts. The rest have not outperformed last years key group of players that left. On top of that the team lacks energy and focus to quote CMA and the coach has certainly made some very questionable coaching decisions  to date. So for all of those reasons, all of which I deem to be valid and not an overreaction, you have a very disappointed or concerned fan base. 

Nice post, North.  I tend to agree with both you and Monte.  It is this year's expectations on top of 20 years of frustration.

Another point to consider is where the expectations for our new players came from.  Personally, I thought we lost a lot and I don't think that can be minimized by looking at how those players are performing on their new teams.  They weren't perfect, but we were a highly competitive team....missing some size.  To our dismay, we lost the chance for continuity and got a total overhaul.    

The fan base was quickly pacified by some seemingly superior additions.  We heard it was an "upgrade".  But, to be fair, I am not sure that hype came from CMA and staff.  It more likely came from a starving fan base.  Fair to say, there was definitely some over-hyping (without having seen kids play) on this board

 

[Amaseinyourface]

I’ll still say that there was nothing that told us the new comers would be sure fire upgrades. Nothing. Some of us tried to say it then. It was a toss up and anything was possible. Good or bad. I didn’t blame coach for the transfers that left because this was the first year with a whole new transfer game being played. Kids wanted to exercise their freedom. And I’m not gonna blame him for the unrealistic expectations that fans put on the new players coming in. 

With that said, CMA himself said this team was gonna make the tourney. So you can hold him to his own expectations, and not reaching tourney cant be looked at as anything but a failure. 

At this point I’m excited we have at least 20 more meaningful games. Don’t let your own expectations kill a season that’s far from dead. 

 

[NCJohnnie]

JohnnyFan wrote:

The fan base was quickly pacified by some seemingly superior additions.  We heard it was an "upgrade".  But, to be fair, I am not sure that came from CMA and staff.  It more likely came from a starving fan base.  Fair to say, there was definitely over-hyping (without having seen kids play) on this board.

Agree with much of what Monte, RMN & JohnnyFan posted on this topic. As far as expectations for transfers in, I agree that many posters, myself included, were eager to believe what we read in several Post articles by Zach about high expectations for the new guys, including enthusiastic quotes from staff on the same topic. Also think enthusiasm was further stoked by the first two games where Coburn looked like he'd be a big piece. Having said that, there's a lot of season left and we have a chance to get off to a good in league start with a relatively soft early schedule. 

 

[room112]

It requires a thought process that is foreign to too many posters, but there seems to be little acceptance of the plight every coach so far, and probably any future coach, faces at St. John's. There is so much competition for top level recruits, and far too many inherent factors in the university and basketball program that hinder our ability to compete. We all know what they are. There are positives, too, or at least we want to think so. So the real question is there an elite coach who would come here, especially knowing that they will be expected to run a clean program, and do so with lesser facilities and for less money than they had at their previous job. And if they accepted those terms, would they be able to recruit the level of talent needed to succeed at a very high level?  These are questions that very few of us want to even consider.


 

I think this is a fair point.  However, there are comparative programs having success.  Look no further than Seton Hall, which has lousy facilities.   I agree, the margin of error is slim, but it is possible. 

But Seton Hall not only has had a recent history of success, but also has a coach who has shown he is willing to take the unethical route when it comes to recruiting.

I often wonder what our recruiting pitch even looks like. Do kids even care about playing in NYC any more?

 

[Knight]

Maybe we should drop out of the BE for a conference we can compete in regularly.

 

[beast of the east]

The reason we are even having this discussion this early in the season, I think, is because the last 20 plus years has made many of us to expect to be disappointed. Also, in Louie's day, including Mulzoff's three years, you had a head coach and two assistants, at a cost of under $100 thousand. Now, you have a head coach, three assistants, special advisors, directors, coordinators, etc, with a budget of near $3.5 million. It just seems like a poor return on investment.
I hope things work out with this staff, but if it does not, it will mean the school has had to buy out seven consecutive coaches. That's got to be an NCAA record.

Actually, you are wrong about 7 consecutive coaches getting bought out.

OK, we've dismissed our last six coaches, each with time remaining on his contract. Which of the six did not get a buy out?  The seventh would obviously be the current coach.

 

Actually. I don't know the exact terms of each coaches contract. I believe Roberts was only guaranteed the 6th season when he was extended and likely was owed nothing or a small buyout. Lavin completed 5 years of a 6 year deal and was negotiating an extension when talks went south. I have an inkling that he was offered a cut in pay which he refused, and may have received a buyout instead. All of the above is speculation based on some knowledge and some fill in the blanks. I do know that up to the end the decision on Lavin was on the fence

The following is true from a very good source. Upon leaving after 4 years of a 6 year deal, Bobby asked Chris if he would negotiate a payout of his final two years of salary, which he was contractually entitled to. Mullin then told Bobby he wouldn't take a penny of that money that he wouldn't be working for.

Yes, Mullin was not a very good coach, but is a very good man. Shame on anyone who called him a "POS" for not being present at the statue unveiling. (Yes he was called that and it was allowed to stand.

 

[monte]

I have seen very few posters calling for CMA's firing. I see a fair amount of extremely reasonable(and right now, emotionally charged) posters having a conversation about whether or not CMA is the right man to right this ship. Just to clarify for all of you who think this is a reaction to one bad loss; it ain't. It's the culmination of 20+ years of futility and frustration. As is usually the case, the title of the thread is a good indicator of the subject matter. You think it's to early be having this conversation, that's fine, don't join in. Or you want to defend CMA, that's cool too. We all want him to succeed here, desperately. But for the love of God, unless you're a mod, please stop telling others what they should and shouldn't be discussing(within the boundaries of board rules). 

But let me ask you this. If CMA is not the right man to lead the ship, who in reality is? I come with that question from the perspective that it doesn't appear his lack of success has anything to do with work ethic. In fact he is probably the hardest working coach we've had in decades.

I just remember the last coaching search and how many times we were turned down. I guess my question is, can we really even do better than CMA?

Please nobody even bring up Pitino to answer this....

When it comes to potential coaches 112, I am eternal optimist. I am not willing to accept mediocrity out of fear that a coaching change could potentially result in worse. I am emotionally invested in this program, but I never get emotionally invested in coaches. My attitude has always been "If it ain't working out, next man up". i still believe that there's enough potential here, and enough talented young coaches out there, that a good match is only one smart hire away. 

 

[Mean Gene]

Maybe we should drop out of the BE for a conference we can compete in regularly.

We can drop down to the A-10 and lose to Dayton, St. Bonaventure and VCU

 

[mjmaherjr]

I have seen very few posters calling for CMA's firing. I see a fair amount of extremely reasonable(and right now, emotionally charged) posters having a conversation about whether or not CMA is the right man to right this ship. Just to clarify for all of you who think this is a reaction to one bad loss; it ain't. It's the culmination of 20+ years of futility and frustration. As is usually the case, the title of the thread is a good indicator of the subject matter. You think it's to early be having this conversation, that's fine, don't join in. Or you want to defend CMA, that's cool too. We all want him to succeed here, desperately. But for the love of God, unless you're a mod, please stop telling others what they should and shouldn't be discussing(within the boundaries of board rules). 

Gréât post Monte but i honestly do not believe that this thread is the result of 20 years of futility and frustration but rather the disappointment of a group of very committed fans who gave CMA two seasons and watched each of those teams exceed expectations. As previously said we had the COY, the ROY, the DPOY and should have had the POY all returning. We had a very deep and solid team with experience returning, so by all accounts and rightfully so we were excited for this season, we had expectations to finish in the top half of the league and to dance and hopefully win our first tournament game in 20 years.  Well then there was a mass exodus which set us back but the new talent that was coming in we were repeatedly told was much better than the group that left. So the renewed optimism set in. Mathis would replace Earlington, Wheeler was killing it over the summer and could certainly replace Moore up front. Dunn and Williams could easily be replaced by Smith, Coburn, Pinzon. We all read what was said and drank the koolaid. Well the koolaid has not been as sweet as advertised. The only position I believe we improved is Soriano over Roberts. The rest have not outperformed last years key group of players that left. On top of that the team lacks energy and focus to quote CMA and the coach has certainly made some very questionable coaching decisions  to date. So for all of those reasons, all of which I deem to be valid and not an overreaction, you have a very disappointed or concerned fan base. 

Let's not forget a critical additional piece of rightful outrage. MSG not selling  Bronx Pale Ales anymore in the 100's sections

 

[RedStormNC]

We all agree the University is playing from behind in many regards financially.. if so, how can we continue to have an AD & coach, both who came from big, winning programs, speak about Final Fours and Big East championships so freely.   It just sets up for failure and a fan base who has an increasingly hard time buying into the vision put out publicly.

University needs to place some big time bets and pump in the needed $ to allow staff to legitimately recruit top talent or stop pretending its 1985 and touting that NYC is the mecca.

It's a shame that only 4% of alumni donate.  I do my part every year but think school needs to make bolder decisions on where to cut  and where to invest or partner.

I believe part of the problem is the school is so conservative and inward looking that while they recognize what's happening around them and how fast things are moving they don't attempt to move faster.  Can't just play with intent to catch up as you never will You have to play with the intent to leapfrog.

Anderson seems and by all accounts,, a great leader, motivator and man..My two issues with Anderson are his recruiting and his game calling..  if he can't get those right, he'll never win big here.




 

 

[monte]

We all agree the University is playing from behind in many regards financially.. if so, how can we continue to have an AD & coach, both who came from big, winning programs, speak about Final Fours and Big East championships so freely.   It just sets up for failure and a fan base who has an increasingly hard time buying into the vision put out publicly.

University needs to place some big time bets and pump in the needed $ to allow staff to legitimately recruit top talent or stop pretending its 1985 and touting that NYC is the mecca.

I believe part of the problem is the school is so conservative and inward looking that while they recognize what's happening around them and how fast things are moving they don't attempt to move faster.  Can't just play with intent to catch up as you never will You have to play with the intent to leapfrog.

Anderson seems and by all accounts,, a great leader, motivator and man..My two issues with Anderson are his recruiting and his game calling..  if he can't get those right, he'll never win big here.


 

In all honesty RSNC, when I hear that kind of talk about winning championships while we're still floundering as a program, and have shown no significant sign of being headed in the right direction,  it not only insults my intelligence, but it sounds like complete BS to me. Someone ought to tell the school that you don't sell more tickets with talk, you sell more tickets with results. Did Cragg actually attend Duke? That might explain his thinking. Dookies almost always think that they're the smartest guy in the room. 

 

[RedStormNC]

Thanks Monte.

Cragg wasn't a Dookie by degree.  He came after graduation from U of Washington in late 80's in sports info dept. and walking into a blue blood.  

I'm sure he's seen it all and many good contacts.  he's likely the best  AD we've had in 25 years, but not much to compare to.  He's knows what a winning culture looks like, but he's never had to experience the journey of what it takes to get there.  It was always there for him at Duke.

Seems like a good guy, good intent, a company man type. etc., but like Anderson, he needs to show he can win in men's basketball.

 

[monte]

Thanks Monte.

Cragg wasn't a Dookie by degree.  He came after graduation from U of Washington in late 80's in sports info dept. and walking into a blue blood.  

I'm sure he's seen it all and many good contacts.  he's likely the best  AD we've had in 25 years, but not much to compare to.  He's knows what a winning culture looks like, but he's never had to experience the journey of what it takes to get there.  It was always there for him at Duke.

Seems like a good guy, good intent, a company man type. etc., but like Anderson, he needs to show he can win in men's basketball.

Well if he didn't attend Duke, then I hold him in higher regard lol. I'm sure he's a great guy and company man, but my priority is the basketball program. I assume that's a priority for him too. If he can't resurrect  the basketball program, well then not much else matters to me. 

 

[beast of the east]

We all agree the University is playing from behind in many regards financially.. if so, how can we continue to have an AD & coach, both who came from big, winning programs, speak about Final Fours and Big East championships so freely.   It just sets up for failure and a fan base who has an increasingly hard time buying into the vision put out publicly.

University needs to place some big time bets and pump in the needed $ to allow staff to legitimately recruit top talent or stop pretending its 1985 and touting that NYC is the mecca.

I believe part of the problem is the school is so conservative and inward looking that while they recognize what's happening around them and how fast things are moving they don't attempt to move faster.  Can't just play with intent to catch up as you never will You have to play with the intent to leapfrog.

Anderson seems and by all accounts,, a great leader, motivator and man..My two issues with Anderson are his recruiting and his game calling..  if he can't get those right, he'll never win big here.




 

In all honesty RSNC, when I hear that kind of talk about winning championships while we're still floundering as a program, and have shown no significant sign of being headed in the right direction,  it not only insults my intelligence, but it sounds like complete BS to me. Someone ought to tell the school that you don't sell more tickets with talk, you sell more tickets with results. Did Cragg actually attend Duke? That might explain his thinking. Dookies almost always think that they're the smartest guy in the room. 

Honestly, if you believe we are floundering under CMA, that's your prerogative.   I've communicated where Cragg and CMA want to be - I find that a lot more admirable that NR accepting razor thin wins vs lousy mid major teams and calling those great.   Would you hire someone who wanted your company to be less than the very best?   If you would, then that would say as much about you than that person.   Neither CMA or MC believe we are championship caliber right now, but neither bitch and moan or make excuses after tough losses.   We all remember coaches who would drone on endlessly about why we lost games - in Charlotte I asked Lavin if Harrison's shoulder injury was still serious enough to cause concern and he went on for five minutes about how good we'd be if Sampson and Harkless stayed. 

I know you have been miserable and are venting, but it's absolutely ridiculous to say there are no significant signs of the program heading in the right direction under CMA, when in his 1st season a team that was expected to be horrible ended the season as a very tough out, and last year's 4th place team was above expectations and earned him BE coach of the year.    

We have to recruit better, much better in my opinion, but after years of questioning why guys come here and never improve after year one, we have a coaching staff who by all means show that they can coach up players.   That will only get you so far of course.   

Presuming then that no 5 star player is going to join our roster over the next 3 months, the best expectation based on what CMA has done so far, is that guys will earn playing time with the same tough defense we've seen the first two seasons.   

In the meantime you can also choose to swoon over mid major players who left here and are excelling at a lower level of competition.   IMO those guys are program builders who will never get you where you want to be,but help attract better talent who will get you there.   

As others have pointed out, we aren't a pro franchise that has hundreds of millions to invest in winning and fans rightfully can stay home until they do win.   Our investors are our alumni and our ticket buying fans, and nothing you say will produce a winner without those investors.    

Cragg is doing his part.  He is the first AD to address the dreadful facilities that we have here.   We just lost to Pitt.  My cousin's kid just turned down an athletic scholarship there but came back raving how their facilities are like a professional franchise compared to other schools that offered him.   What do you think basketball recruits think when visiting  Pitt and SJU?

Pitt loses their best player, and we lost the twin to that best player, and we played a two point game.   

We've lost exactly 1 game by a margin of greater than 2 points, and if we scored on our last possession in one of those, we win.   

If you don't think a CMA team can improve end to end by 2 points per game, then I think you may be rooting for losses. 
 

 

[beast of the east]

The reason we are even having this discussion this early in the season, I think, is because the last 20 plus years has made many of us to expect to be disappointed. Also, in Louie's day, including Mulzoff's three years, you had a head coach and two assistants, at a cost of under $100 thousand. Now, you have a head coach, three assistants, special advisors, directors, coordinators, etc, with a budget of near $3.5 million. It just seems like a poor return on investment.
I hope things work out with this staff, but if it does not, it will mean the school has had to buy out seven consecutive coaches. That's got to be an NCAA record.

Actually, you are wrong about 7 consecutive coaches getting bought out.

OK, we've dismissed our last six coaches, each with time remaining on his contract. Which of the six did not get a buy out?  The seventh would obviously be the current coach.

 

I can tell you that despite being called a POS on here by an absolute idiot (I can't believe that post was allowed to stand), Mullin would not accept any money contractually due him when he left.    

To me at least, this reaffirms the integrity that Mullin has.   Some of our fans were completely unable to separate failure to win from the character of the person.