40 Minutes Of "P.U."

It depends on which Heron shows up. He looked like an all american the first 2 games and mediocre the last 2. Last year he was inconsistent as well . Many blamed it on the chemistry w Ponds and his injury. Hopefully he will play like an all BE player consistently
 
[quote="Jack Williams" post=363891]okay... whether or not LJ or Heron is the most talented is so besides the point I was making. The point is, don't bench this guy lol.

Question, lets look at something here. Here are two SJU players against Vermont.

Player A: 14 points (on 3-14 shooting), 10 rebounds, 4 fouls, 3 turnovers
Player B: 14 points (on 3-11 shooting), 4 rebounds, 2 fouls, 4 turnovers

Player A is LJ, B is Mustapha. But Heron is the one who needs to be benched right? LJ is safe from all criticism, why cause he grabbed 6 more boards and committed one less turnover?

or maybe, just maybe, neither of them should be benched, and this whole premise is a little ridiculous. We need both of them. Any calls for benchings should have a better argument than "oh he shot bad the last two games". If we are benching people for shooting poorly, then send out the walk ons to start next game, cause everyone shot poorly against UVM. Singling out Mustapha is just ridiculous and a lame attempt at scapegoating at this point. Grasping at straws[/quote]

I didn’t see anyone say bench Heron but I believe it. To you’re point regarding that, it’s ridiculous to suggest. But to the point you just brought up
about last game, 6 rebounds is not something to just dismiss. LJ impacts the game in so many areas, to me that’s where he (imo clearly) sets him self apart from Heron. I’ve never been a guy who looks at scoring as the end all be all and some would suggest that Heron is the better scorer (id disagree) but to me, even if that were true, does not make him the better player.
 
Heron seems to press a bit and force things when he does not get off well early. Hopefully staff will get him some solid early opportunities to prevent that, as best they can.
 
[quote="Paultzman" post=363899]Heron seems to press a bit and force things when he does not get off well early. Hopefully staff will get him some solid early opportunities to prevent that, as best they can.[/quote]

Would like to see him get a post touch or two
 
[quote="Amaseinyourface" post=363897][quote="Jack Williams" post=363891]okay... whether or not LJ or Heron is the most talented is so besides the point I was making. The point is, don't bench this guy lol.

Question, lets look at something here. Here are two SJU players against Vermont.

Player A: 14 points (on 3-14 shooting), 10 rebounds, 4 fouls, 3 turnovers
Player B: 14 points (on 3-11 shooting), 4 rebounds, 2 fouls, 4 turnovers

Player A is LJ, B is Mustapha. But Heron is the one who needs to be benched right? LJ is safe from all criticism, why cause he grabbed 6 more boards and committed one less turnover?

or maybe, just maybe, neither of them should be benched, and this whole premise is a little ridiculous. We need both of them. Any calls for benchings should have a better argument than "oh he shot bad the last two games". If we are benching people for shooting poorly, then send out the walk ons to start next game, cause everyone shot poorly against UVM. Singling out Mustapha is just ridiculous and a lame attempt at scapegoating at this point. Grasping at straws[/quote]

I didn’t see anyone say bench Heron but I believe it. To you’re point regarding that, it’s ridiculous to suggest. But to the point you just brought up
about last game, 6 rebounds is not something to just dismiss. LJ impacts the game in so many areas, to me that’s where he (imo clearly) sets him self apart from Heron. I’ve never been a guy who looks at scoring as the end all be all and some would suggest that Heron is the better scorer (id disagree) but to me, even if that were true, does not make him the better player.[/quote]

They are two different players but Heron is far more skilled offensively. He was a very quick release on his outside shot eas LJ has a funky release which may hamper his ability to get off quite so many open looks - the answer can't be shooting from 25 or even 30 feet because the defense gives it to you. Also LJ has very little to the hoop besides that (awful) floater which is a low percentage shot from 8-10 feet for a 6'7" player. Raw athleticism makes up a lot of ground for LJ, but based on his raw offensive ability both Sampson and Harkless were way ahead of him and unless he improves his skillset will keep him from playing at the next level.

Whereas I'd be comfortable with LJ taking a wide open three form a reasonable range as a game ending shot, would not be comfortable with the ball in his hands for any other reason as time runs down.

YOur points about his overall athleticism and contribution well taken in terms of filling out a box score.
 
[quote="Beast of the East" post=363902][quote="Amaseinyourface" post=363897][quote="Jack Williams" post=363891]okay... whether or not LJ or Heron is the most talented is so besides the point I was making. The point is, don't bench this guy lol.

Question, lets look at something here. Here are two SJU players against Vermont.

Player A: 14 points (on 3-14 shooting), 10 rebounds, 4 fouls, 3 turnovers
Player B: 14 points (on 3-11 shooting), 4 rebounds, 2 fouls, 4 turnovers

Player A is LJ, B is Mustapha. But Heron is the one who needs to be benched right? LJ is safe from all criticism, why cause he grabbed 6 more boards and committed one less turnover?

or maybe, just maybe, neither of them should be benched, and this whole premise is a little ridiculous. We need both of them. Any calls for benchings should have a better argument than "oh he shot bad the last two games". If we are benching people for shooting poorly, then send out the walk ons to start next game, cause everyone shot poorly against UVM. Singling out Mustapha is just ridiculous and a lame attempt at scapegoating at this point. Grasping at straws[/quote]

I didn’t see anyone say bench Heron but I believe it. To you’re point regarding that, it’s ridiculous to suggest. But to the point you just brought up
about last game, 6 rebounds is not something to just dismiss. LJ impacts the game in so many areas, to me that’s where he (imo clearly) sets him self apart from Heron. I’ve never been a guy who looks at scoring as the end all be all and some would suggest that Heron is the better scorer (id disagree) but to me, even if that were true, does not make him the better player.[/quote]

They are two different players but Heron is far more skilled offensively. He was a very quick release on his outside shot eas LJ has a funky release which may hamper his ability to get off quite so many open looks - the answer can't be shooting from 25 or even 30 feet because the defense gives it to you. Also LJ has very little to the hoop besides that (awful) floater which is a low percentage shot from 8-10 feet for a 6'7" player. Raw athleticism makes up a lot of ground for LJ, but based on his raw offensive ability both Sampson and Harkless were way ahead of him and unless he improves his skillset will keep him from playing at the next level.

Whereas I'd be comfortable with LJ taking a wide open three form a reasonable range as a game ending shot, would not be comfortable with the ball in his hands for any other reason as time runs down.

YOur points about his overall athleticism and contribution well taken in terms of filling out a box score.[/quote]

Personally I’m way more impressed with LJs ability to get his jumper off. Once Heron is forced to put the ball down he struggles to get a good look. Whether that’s a pull up or a drive to the rim. Just my opinion and agree to disagree. Heron off the catch and right into his shot is really picture perfect.
 
All good stuff. I love it when we can debate relative worth of our players w/o getting into being overly disparaging about them trying to make our case. Here is my two cents. Good faith cases can be made for either Mustapha or LJ as our best player. Both were 2nd teams all BE selections and I believe that Mustapha was voted 7th best BE player and LJ 9th in that poll of BE beat writers compiled by the guys from Marquette. Here is what I would say - at this point in time Mustapha is our most accomplished college player just on the basis of his three year track record. LJ could certainly wind up having the better career for SJU when all is said and done.

The one thing that I do disagree with is this theory that we are likely to get the same "inconsistency" from Mustapha this year as we got last year, the implication being that may be just who he is. I agree that he was maddeningly inconsistent last year, but he was clearly playing hurt on several occasions and he just didn't appear comfortable on last year's team for whatever reason(s).
However, the stats in his first two years do not appear to be those of an inconsistent player. As a frosh he averaged 15.6 ppg and finished in double figures in 31 of 32 games - that is consistency in scoring for sure. In fact, he broke the Auburn record of Wesley Person with most consecutive double figure games for a frosh. As a soph he was second team all SEC and finished 6th in scoring with double figures in 29 of 34 games. In his two years with Auburn he averaged about 175 free throws a year and connected on about 79% of them.

I don't think we can take much from the 4 games we've played this year - too small a sample size. Maybe he will have another up and down year, but it makes more sense to me to look at his first two years as predictors when he was healthy and consistent. We'll see. One thing for sure he got to the line an awful lot those years and was an excellent foul shooter. I don't buy that he is purely a spot up shooter. I love to see him going hard to the rim, something I'd like to see a little more of from LJ. Last year, Mustapha rarely looked to pass once he started driving, have seen him looking to dump the ball off to the open man a bit more so far this year which is encouraging.
Finally agree that LJ is the better rebounder and at coming up with steals. Hoping they both have some big games on the same day, especially against teams like ASU & West Virginia.
 
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[quote="NCJohnnie" post=363909]All good stuff. I love it when we can debate relative worth of our players w/o getting into being overly disparaging about them trying to make our case. Here is my two cents. Good faith cases can be made for either Mustapha or LJ as our best player. Both were 2nd teams all BE selections and I believe that Mustapha was voted 7th best BE player and LJ 9th in that poll of BE beat writers compiled by the guys from Marquette. Here is what I would say - at this point in time Mustapha is our most accomplished college player just on the basis of his three year track record. LJ could certainly wind up having the better career for SJU when all is said and done.

The one thing that I do disagree with is this theory that we are likely to get the same "inconsistency" from Mustapha this year as we got last year, the implication being that may be just who he is. I agree that he was maddeningly inconsistent last year, but he was clearly playing hurt on several occasions and he just didn't appear comfortable on last year's team for whatever reason(s).
However, the stats in his first two years do not appear to be those of an inconsistent player. As a frosh he averaged 15.6 ppg and finished in double figures in 31 of 32 games - that is consistency in scoring for sure. In fact, he broke the Auburn record of Wesley Person with most consecutive double figure games for a frosh. As a soph he was second team all SEC and finished 6th in scoring with double figures in 29 of 34 games. In his two years with Auburn he averaged about 175 free throws a year and connected on about 79% of them.

I don't think we can take much from the 4 games we've played this year - too small a sample size. Maybe he will have another up and down year, but it makes more sense to me to look at his first two years as predictors when he was healthy and consistent. We'll see. One thing for sure he got to the line an awful lot those years and was an excellent foul shooter. I don't buy that he is purely a spot up shooter. I love to see him going hard to the rim, something I'd like to see a little more of from LJ. Last year, Mustapha rarely looked to pass once he started driving, have seen him looking to dump the ball off to the open man a bit more so far this year which is encouraging.
Finally agree that LJ is the better rebounder and at coming up with steals. Hoping they both have some big games on the same day, especially against teams like ASU & West Virginia.[/quote]

The 3 or 4 nice feeds Heron has had To Roberts and Julian off the pick and roll have been great. If he adds that consistently it will help his game tremendously.
 
[quote="Amaseinyourface" post=363911][quote="NCJohnnie" post=363909]All good stuff. I love it when we can debate relative worth of our players w/o getting into being overly disparaging about them trying to make our case. Here is my two cents. Good faith cases can be made for either Mustapha or LJ as our best player. Both were 2nd teams all BE selections and I believe that Mustapha was voted 7th best BE player and LJ 9th in that poll of BE beat writers compiled by the guys from Marquette. Here is what I would say - at this point in time Mustapha is our most accomplished college player just on the basis of his three year track record. LJ could certainly wind up having the better career for SJU when all is said and done.

The one thing that I do disagree with is this theory that we are likely to get the same "inconsistency" from Mustapha this year as we got last year, the implication being that may be just who he is. I agree that he was maddeningly inconsistent last year, but he was clearly playing hurt on several occasions and he just didn't appear comfortable on last year's team for whatever reason(s).
However, the stats in his first two years do not appear to be those of an inconsistent player. As a frosh he averaged 15.6 ppg and finished in double figures in 31 of 32 games - that is consistency in scoring for sure. In fact, he broke the Auburn record of Wesley Person with most consecutive double figure games for a frosh. As a soph he was second team all SEC and finished 6th in scoring with double figures in 29 of 34 games. In his two years with Auburn he averaged about 175 free throws a year and connected on about 79% of them.

I don't think we can take much from the 4 games we've played this year - too small a sample size. Maybe he will have another up and down year, but it makes more sense to me to look at his first two years as predictors when he was healthy and consistent. We'll see. One thing for sure he got to the line an awful lot those years and was an excellent foul shooter. I don't buy that he is purely a spot up shooter. I love to see him going hard to the rim, something I'd like to see a little more of from LJ. Last year, Mustapha rarely looked to pass once he started driving, have seen him looking to dump the ball off to the open man a bit more so far this year which is encouraging.
Finally agree that LJ is the better rebounder and at coming up with steals. Hoping they both have some big games on the same day, especially against teams like ASU & West Virginia.[/quote]

The 3 or 4 nice feeds Heron has had To Roberts and Julian off the pick and roll have been great. If he adds that consistently it will help his game tremendously.[/quote]

He tends to telegraph his offensive moves, especially his drives. We all know when he's going to take it to the hoop, and so does the opposition. And he rarely goes right. When his outside shot isn't falling, he tries to force it down low. Against smaller teams he can score, not nearly as much against bigger teams. Agree that if he looks to dish a little more, and act as a decoy of sorts, it will open things up for him.
 
It's clear as day to me what the problem is: He hates Dunn as much as he hates Ponds.

Or maybe he's just in a slump and will get back on track today.
 
Vermont in a battle @Virginia early second half.

Virginia 24
Vermont 20

Maybe we don’t “stink” and played a real close game against a really solid mid major team.
 
Seems to me Heron has been acting as a floor general, a bit, in the first 4 games. Maybe when players settle into their roles, he will be able to relax and go with the flow.
 
[quote="MJDinkins" post=363778]Doc, IMO, I think your posts tend to run into trouble because it has a certain pomposity and know-it-all aura to 'em. Even your exit post had a grandiose delivery (I wasn't aware we had to "appreciate" someone's post). Whether you're aware of it or not; I'm not sure. But it comes off that way to me, and based on some of the responses you've received, it seems others think that way as well. I've also spoken to a couple of posters offline in the past, and they also view it the same way.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I know I said I wouldn't be posting again, but I felt your message was heartfelt and constructive. There's nothing I can say to contradict what you've written. What I say can easily be interpreted as arrogant, but much of that comes from the fact that I happen to know what I'm talking about, and have the confidence to say it. I told everyone after St. Thomas Aquinas that Chris Mullin couldn't coach, and I was summarily beaten up...much the same as now. Last year more than half this board was calling for his head. I have, or at least used to have, a sizeable group of members on this board who appreciated and looked forward to my attempts at analysis. That is why I presented those efforts as their own post. If I were to place them on the tail end of a 12 page discussion, they would have had difficulty finding, or even know I had posted. Some were even jealous for some ridiculous reason. So now there are members who see this as arrogance on my part. I certainly won't make that mistake again. In any event, I've never had adverse moderator or complaints from Mr. Massell. Sadly, I always viewed the membership here on Redmen.com as a community of like minded brethren. It took this current situation to remind me that there are always people who have an innate need to belittle and criticize others. There are always others who feel so insecure that they feel a need to prove that they know better. I simply see this as a discussion board for a membership to discuss our Redmen basketball team. I have some tools that I thought others might find useful....apparently not! Additionally, please don't misinterpret that anything I said in this main post, was a call for Coach Anderson' head. I never said that! That would be absurdly premature as many have pointed out. .It's just that in my opinion, his style doesn't fit our current talent levels, and those likely to be available for the foreseeable future. it's a philosophy that he is committed to. He has obviously had success with previous programs and there's certainly a degree of fun to watching our team finally show some aggression on the court. Those of us who were here,all used to admire how Georgetown used to take us to task against the relatively passive Louie Carnesecca response. But we don't have Patrick Ewing lurking in the basket vicinity and that's a factor that makes a huge difference. When we get broken down off the dribble, it's a score for the opposition. We saw that frequently with uncontested Vermont layups. I kind of feel that our limited resources should dictate...can you believe it...I'm saying Louieball? As poorly as LJ and Heron played Saturday, they are still our primary hope to accomplish something. We can't afford to have them on the bench, either exhausted or in foul trouble, for 25% of the game. I can tell you that one of St. John's finest point guards called me this week to agree with what I'm saying here. He added, "Which successful Division I team presses the floor and applied half court pressure for 40 minutes and wins"? The answer is none. We forced a meager 11 turnovers against Vermont, and good teams are going to make us look silly. Remember, you heard it here! I wish everyone here, and involved with our St. John's basketball program, a very splendid Thanksgiving, and hopefully in rooting for our Red Storm. It is quite apparent to me that I've over-stayed my welcome on this board and here-bye wish everyone a fond "Good night" Be Well/Doc.
 
Just for the record...It was a Typo! I tried to edit title, but program wouldn't le me. So, my apologies...meant to be a 40!
 
[quote="docbutler" post=364279][quote="MJDinkins" post=363778]Doc, IMO, I think your posts tend to run into trouble because it has a certain pomposity and know-it-all aura to 'em. Even your exit post had a grandiose delivery (I wasn't aware we had to "appreciate" someone's post). Whether you're aware of it or not; I'm not sure. But it comes off that way to me, and based on some of the responses you've received, it seems others think that way as well. I've also spoken to a couple of posters offline in the past, and they also view it the same way.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I know I said I wouldn't be posting again, but I felt your message was heartfelt and constructive. There's nothing I can say to contradict what you've written. What I say can easily be interpreted as arrogant, but much of that comes from the fact that I happen to know what I'm talking about, and have the confidence to say it. I told everyone after St. Thomas Aquinas that Chris Mullin couldn't coach, and I was summarily beaten up...much the same as now. Last year more than half this board was calling for his head. I have, or at least used to have, a sizeable group of members on this board who appreciated and looked forward to my attempts at analysis. That is why I presented those efforts as their own post. If I were to place them on the tail end of a 12 page discussion, they would have had difficulty finding, or even know I had posted. Some were even jealous for some ridiculous reason. So now there are members who see this as arrogance on my part. I certainly won't make that mistake again. In any event, I've never had adverse moderator or complaints from Mr. Massell. Sadly, I always viewed the membership here on Redmen.com as a community of like minded brethren. It took this current situation to remind me that there are always people who have an innate need to belittle and criticize others. There are always others who feel so insecure that they feel a need to prove that they know better. I simply see this as a discussion board for a membership to discuss our Redmen basketball team. I have some tools that I thought others might find useful....apparently not! Additionally, please don't misinterpret that anything I said in this main post, was a call for Coach Anderson' head. I never said that! That would be absurdly premature as many have pointed out. .It's just that in my opinion, his style doesn't fit our current talent levels, and those likely to be available for the foreseeable future. it's a philosophy that he is committed to. He has obviously had success with previous programs and there's certainly a degree of fun to watching our team finally show some aggression on the court. Those of us who were here,all used to admire how Georgetown used to take us to task against the relatively passive Louie Carnesecca response. But we don't have Patrick Ewing lurking in the basket vicinity and that's a factor that makes a huge difference. When we get broken down off the dribble, it's a score for the opposition. We saw that frequently with uncontested Vermont layups. I kind of feel that our limited resources should dictate...can you believe it...I'm saying Louieball? As poorly as LJ and Heron played Saturday, they are still our primary hope to accomplish something. We can't afford to have them on the bench, either exhausted or in foul trouble, for 25% of the game. I can tell you that one of St. John's finest point guards called me this week to agree with what I'm saying here. He added, "Which successful Division I team presses the floor and applied half court pressure for 40 minutes and wins"? The answer is none. We forced a meager 11 turnovers against Vermont, and good teams are going to make us look silly. Remember, you heard it here! I wish everyone here, and involved with our St. John's basketball program, a very splendid Thanksgiving, and hopefully in rooting for our Red Storm. It is quite apparent to me that I've over-stayed my welcome on this board and here-bye wish everyone a fond "Good night" Be Well/Doc.[/quote

Lol why let anyone make you stop posting, that would be silly on your part. I agree that there are some very annoying people on here, just laugh them, and play their own game back at them.
Just not in a nasty way where the mods will give you a warning, or they win.

Just keep.posting doc.
 
Doc, I’m not in agreement with a number of points in your original post, but who cares. I respect your opinion nonetheless and I say keep posting. We’re not like minded on here...we just root for the same team.

However, I’d like to counter a comment in your last post. As for which successful Division I team presses the floor and applied half court pressure for 40 minutes and wins? The answer is the team coached by Mike Anderson...for the last 17 years. As for others, it doesn’t matter. There are plenty of different styles that win (see UVA, which may be some of the ugliest basketball on the planet, but it works for them, and nobody copies that style)..
 
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Hey doc. Of course keep posting. I certainly don’t agree with your original post. We lost at the buzzer to a good team. We had our best players not play well and still somehow had a chance to win. It was Dunn’s first game action. I know he has practiced with team but I’m sure it disrupted things somewhat. Don’t over analyze things. Same team we lost to at buzzer played a national power toe to toe even though I will never be sold on Virginia. Or maybe it’s their style I can’t stand. Hopefully we get the chance to beat them after we hopefully beat asu tomorrow and they beat umass

I think your post was a quite bit premature and like I said in my other post on this thread, had we lost to or looked bad in our first 3 games I get the rant. But not after that Vermont game.

Anyway. Keep posting. Differing opinions aside we are all entitled to them.
 
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No Doubt in My Mind Doc had good intentions with his post. [attachment=1171]R-13858863-1562716865-6957.jpeg.jpg[/attachment]
 
Doc is a long time poster whose posts I do not always agree with but whom I respect.

I am not sure why some seem to personalize their posts. I hope to see more posts from Doc. If you don't like his posts then do not read them.

Beat Arizona State.
 
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