What a Mess

[juniorRed]

With Obepka shooting 25% from the line we can expect him to get fouled everytime he shoots resulting in the equivalent of a turnover. If gets 5 blocks a game and goes to the line 6 times, he's in effect a non-entity. (yea, I know he intimidates).

He needs a shooting coach!

Block shots dont necessarily result in getting the ball, He is altering some shots and you could even see that today. But mostly when he blocks a shot, it goes out of bounds or into the hands of the opposition.

U really are clue-less dee-herty..lol... This kid is the BEST shot-blocker in the country. PERIOD.

 

[MarkRedman]

This season will help determine whether Coach Steve Lavin is just a good recruiter or also a good coach.

I agree, Otis
But, with each passing game, I think the answer is becoming clearer
Lavin is a great GM but maybe not a great x and o guy
Unfortunately, in this league (and our next one), you need both skills to be successful
If you're not good at one of them, you need to have someone on staff who can cover your deficiencies
We had one but apparently do not have one on the current staff
Actually, the x and o skill is probably more important
Look at Butler - how many 4 and 5 star guys do you think are on that roster? Stevens is a great coach

 

[fuchsia]

Where is BOBRE when we need him? Where is the beef? We do not have one player that can set a pick with enough solidity that opposing players really want to avoid being picked. Actually we do not have one player with enough solidity that after the opposing player avoids them, they roll to the hoop and catch a simple pass for a layup and now our shooters, all of whom can shoot but with the exception of DLO can not get their own shots quickly, suddenly become much more accurate. Willie Hall, Bross, Davis, Johnson, Minlend, Grant, Middleton, Hamilton, Emanuel, Burrell, EVANS, and on and on and on, but not on this Lavin team. Where are Ron Roberts and Orlando Sanchez when you really really need them?

 

[mjmaherjr]

Not trying to spam. Just posted this in the Gtown thread, but belongs here:

on here.

I want to be very fair in this breakdown of Lavin's recruiting.

Year 1: Lavin had an entire roster to fill, and had to recruit for a program completely in the dumper. He was literally starting with virtually no program - a ten year record at the bottom of the Big East, and was going after guys that other coaches had a 2 or three year jump on. Hauling in Harkness and Harrison as the prizes, Lindsay (who tanked here), Garrett, Greene etc was a pretty nice start, along with Team Lavin turning NRs losing team into an NCAA tourney squad. All in all an A plus job or rebuilding

Year 2: Slowed by cancer, he comes up with Sampson, Branch, Obepka Balamou, Bourgault, Can't overstate how much the loss of harkness hurts. Sampson, Branch, Obepka are nice addditions, and with Harkness here, and Sampson as a third option (with offense from Greene and Branch) we could have beena tourney team.

Year 3: So far we haven't struck gold for next season, and that is a concern.

When you look at it this way it doesn't look horrible at all. Had Roberts left a squad with 3-4 underclassmen of Bif East ability (at the talent level of the starters that was on LAvin's 1st team) we'd be talking entirely differently today. So yea, as much as I'd hate to admit it, we are still in the hole that Norm left us in, and it will likely be felt until at least next year, and possibly won't be gone until the following year.

Tell me you are inebriated at a bar on 7th Ave. None of what you said justifies the current play of our team...none!
Last year, Dunlap had to manage a team of 5 freshmen and forget the record....they came better prepared than our current group of 12. Game management was much better also. Roberts excuses after hauling in 7 top 100 players??
LMAO!
FYI........Georgetown had 5 freshmen and 5 sophs on their team today.

Add a first round NBA pick to SJUs team and we are doing much better, no? Did Thompsom start recruiting two years ago from scratch, filling those 5 sophs in a few months, and did Thompsom start with the mess Lavin inherited?

Lavin did not inherit a mess! He inherited a bunch of under-recruited seniors who gave him 21 wins and a tourney selection. Are you that confident he can do that with his own players as juniors NEXT year???

To be fair Lavin did inherit a mess.

He inherited a program that was completely down the tubs and a team itself that hadnt won cr@p with all of them graduating in 1 year where Lavin would have to replace all those schollies being years behind in recruiting top kids

Then he got cancer and missed a season.

That doesnt excuse him for the poor play this year and we most definitely are underperforming and yesterdays game was a flat out debacle

I though around 19 wins before the season but that was factoring in Sanchez. With no Sanchez I was thinking 16 wins. Looks like that number could be high even.

It took Jay Wrights 1st big recruiting class 3 seasons to start really winning and turn the program around. I THINK by next year we should see the same type of results. At least that's what I hope.

But no doubt about it this season has been a big disappointment.

 

[salty dog]

Nice assessment . Gtown just came off its worst loss in 30 years so I knew they were going to be prepared.
11:00 AM start did not help us. Team is young no matter how your look at it. I expect a big showing against ND.
That game will be more telling than this one.

 

[boo haarvey]

Given our struggles and the increasing perception that guys are not developing and lavin is struggling with the X's and O's, it's going to be more difficult for lavin to recruit. This combined with the collapse of the big east will pose a real challenge for lavin on the recruiting trail. If lavin's recruiting ability is compromised, I wonder what his value is. I would certainly give him one more year to turn the ship around, but I am not confident that next year will be significantly better.

I really believe that in order to have any success next year we need (1) Sampson and Harrison to return, (2) to recruit a decent big who is ready to contribute from day 1, and (3) a pg to emerge (not giving up on branch yet).

Even if all this happens, there is no guarantee of success. I agree that lavin has struggled with the X's and O's, but this team is seriously flawed. Even with coach k at the helm, I'm not sure this group is an NCAA team.

 

[Class of 72]

Not trying to spam. Just posted this in the Gtown thread, but belongs here:

on here.

I want to be very fair in this breakdown of Lavin's recruiting.

Year 1: Lavin had an entire roster to fill, and had to recruit for a program completely in the dumper. He was literally starting with virtually no program - a ten year record at the bottom of the Big East, and was going after guys that other coaches had a 2 or three year jump on. Hauling in Harkness and Harrison as the prizes, Lindsay (who tanked here), Garrett, Greene etc was a pretty nice start, along with Team Lavin turning NRs losing team into an NCAA tourney squad. All in all an A plus job or rebuilding

Year 2: Slowed by cancer, he comes up with Sampson, Branch, Obepka Balamou, Bourgault, Can't overstate how much the loss of harkness hurts. Sampson, Branch, Obepka are nice addditions, and with Harkness here, and Sampson as a third option (with offense from Greene and Branch) we could have beena tourney team.

Year 3: So far we haven't struck gold for next season, and that is a concern.

When you look at it this way it doesn't look horrible at all. Had Roberts left a squad with 3-4 underclassmen of Bif East ability (at the talent level of the starters that was on LAvin's 1st team) we'd be talking entirely differently today. So yea, as much as I'd hate to admit it, we are still in the hole that Norm left us in, and it will likely be felt until at least next year, and possibly won't be gone until the following year.

Tell me you are inebriated at a bar on 7th Ave. None of what you said justifies the current play of our team...none!
Last year, Dunlap had to manage a team of 5 freshmen and forget the record....they came better prepared than our current group of 12. Game management was much better also. Roberts excuses after hauling in 7 top 100 players??
LMAO!
FYI........Georgetown had 5 freshmen and 5 sophs on their team today.

Add a first round NBA pick to SJUs team and we are doing much better, no? Did Thompsom start recruiting two years ago from scratch, filling those 5 sophs in a few months, and did Thompsom start with the mess Lavin inherited?

Lavin did not inherit a mess! He inherited a bunch of under-recruited seniors who gave him 21 wins and a tourney selection. Are you that confident he can do that with his own players as juniors NEXT year???
If this same team hits the floor next year the only way Lavin wins 21 games is by the departure of Syracuse, ND, Louisville, Pitt, etc. and not with his own players who are underachieving more than Roberts' recruits since Norm's players had nowhere near the rankings coming in.
He "reportedly" (self reported) had two outstanding recruiting classes. Were they?
We have a promising shot blocking center who led in assists today but there is not one inside play designed to get him touches. We have a good point guard who cannot get more than one assist because our offensive scheme allows players to stand around.
It is one thing to get the players....quite another to develop them. Recruits will slowly get the message and will lean to schools with the "coaching".
Our coaches have a lot of work to do! They will have had 3 years to turn the corner. They are still quite a few NYC blocks away. I think it is time these out of towners got a subway map.

I couldn't disagree more with your assessments.

You are totally dismissive of where the program was the day Lavin set foot on campus. Do you really have to be reminded that Norm's overall record at SJU was 81-101, or that the group of seniors that Lavin got had gone 44-53 the previous three seasons? Or that his overall Big East record was 32-70, 17-37 with the group of under-recruited seniors.

That is one crazed assessment if you really believe Lavin inherited a seasoned group of upperclassmen. He took a team that finished 13th in the Big East at 6-12, and brought them to 21-12, 12-6 in league, and as high as 8th in the rankings.

Any coach who builds a team of seniors with nothing behind them has impending doom the following season. THAT is what Lavin inherited and any other way to spin this is pure nonsense.

We had not had an NBA player since Artest, and NR didn't recruit a Harkless, a Sampson, even a Harrison. No serious basketball player with high options would consider us, and suddenly Lavin is bringing in top 100 talent.

When you begin with a vacated roster as Lavin did two seasons ago, with less than a year to fill a complete roster, he did a pretty damned good job making us relevant again. RELEVENT, a word we used repeatedly during the end of Norm's tenure. We questioned whether SJU could ever be relevent in college basketball again.

So, even with a bout with cancer, with chemo kicking his ass, Lavin still has brought in some decent talent. Take away a jewel like Harkless, and we still have some decent talent on the roster after two classes. We all recognize the talent and experience of these kids is not enough TODAY to win consistently against Big East competition.

The reason we aren't ramming the ball into Obepka is that he is a pretty raw offensive player right now. Have you seen any offensiveskills on his part to think that dropping the ball into the low post to him for a one on one isolation will yield a mismatch or easy basket? Actually at this juncture, Obepka isnt even a good defender - he is ALWAYS looking to block shots, and is always out of position to defend and CERTAINLY to rebound. How else can you explain a shot blocking monster who doesn't rebound well?

What I'm frustrated with is the lack of cohesion on offense, the lack of ball movement without a ton of dribbling, the repeated draining of the shot clock. Our best offensive threat hangs out on the weak side, waiting for the ball to be swung to him as the clock ticks down. Once in his hands, he either fires it up, or shoots off the dribble,often ill advised shots, but makes a fair amount of shots.

What I see is a talented team of underclassmen that isn't quite talented enough to make up for their inexperience and lack of uppserclass leadership.

Beast and the other defenders of the realm ----- your definition of a "mess" and mine are polar opposites!
For those of you living in Maine, Massachusetts, Florida and California, this program hit rock bottom when Mike Jarvis was fired mid-season,  our team was revealed to be banging a hooker after a less than stellar game in Pittsburgh, players removed from campus, a player accusing the staff of under-the -table payments and the media and fans turning against the school.

That, my fine feathered Thunder fans is a effen mess!

Steve Lavin inherited a losing culture.  But to in any shape, matter or form compare it to what Roberts inherited is ludicrous!

Some of you armchair experts are only focusing on wins and losses during the Roberts era. Would Lavin have had any better record with those same players, none of whom were nationally ranked?  I have my doubts.

Roberts failure was never signing those two elite players to get him those extra 3 or 4 wins per season to keep us relevant and keep his job!  Now for all you Google analysts here....add 3 or 4 wins to his seasons and tell me that man would have been fired for the $600 K we were paying him!  I do not think so!

Now fast forward to the hot mess you claim Lavin inherited ---- He "supposedly" signed a top 3 recruiting class. Only problem, half of them failed to qualify.  It is great P/R and looked great on paper but it never happened.
ALL of us, me included, did not blink and gave him a pass with so many freshmen.....but he also had a couple of Roberts recruits he flushed down the toilet. He gave us the false impression that a virtual non-entity since HS, Nurideen Lindsey, may be "so good" he could jump to the NBA out of JC! 
Year one.....give him a pass, no question!  BTW, Lav never had one day of chemo ---- he had minimally invasive surgery, similar to Jim Calhoun at Sloan. He, and only he, chose not to listen to his doctors, and returned a few weeks too soon and set himself.....and the team back.....giving us the Nurideen and Stith departures and 5 freshmen to get a baptism of fire in the Big East. 
That baptism "should have" served our players well for this season, NO???
Not by the current "mess".
Current mess?  Lavin spent more time recruiting last season than any D1 coach. Our recovering coach re-engineered his job to that of GM.  Trips to California (multiple), Louisiana, and parts unknown yielded Felix Balamou, Marc-Antoine "we hardly knew ya", Max Hooper (Zero Harvard minutes) and the next Lenny Cooke legend in waiting Orlando Sanchez.
Now let's look at the current mess of a roster and review Lav's last Tweet that begins "If we don't sign one effen player for 2013..... YEAR THREE..... And I start to worry.  I would not worry if I were a Butler, Gonzaga, Xavier fan in that I do not expect a top 75 player........I do worry when that top 75 player is a Lavin recruit.  
Just looking at yesterday's Gtown-SJ rosters (yes, yes Moose, Gtown had 2 juniors-hurrah) but their frosh and sophs were well schooled in defense and back-door plays.  Could it be their SATs were a few points higher.....maybe.
But, we got out rebounded by around 15 boards and it was our coach that sat our senior and best rebounder to "save him" for next season----the magical 4th season.
Will it be a turnaround season or a mess?  Based on 2.5 years of recruiting, I am becoming just a little skeptical.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

Given our struggles and the increasing perception that guys are not developing and lavin is struggling with the X's and O's, it's going to be more difficult for lavin to recruit. This combined with the collapse of the big east will pose a real challenge for lavin on the recruiting trail. If lavin's recruiting ability is compromised, I wonder what his value is. I would certainly give him one more year to turn the ship around, but I am not confident that next year will be significantly better.

I really believe that in order to have any success next year we need (1) Sampson and Harrison to return, (2) to recruit a decent big who is ready to contribute from day 1, and (3) a pg to emerge (not giving up on branch yet).

Even if all this happens, there is no guarantee of success. I agree that lavin has struggled with the X's and O's, but this team is seriously flawed. Even with coach k at the helm, I'm not sure this group is an NCAA team.

Got to believe Sampson will return.

Harrison is delusional if he thinks he is ready for the NBA.

I hope Amir doesn't leave to focus on baseball but no one would be shocked if he did.

Only "big time" recruit we are going to land or have a realistic chance of signing this year is Lawrence, IMO.

Need to have a great 2014 recruiting class (i.e guys that we recruit who are actually academically eligible and have no NCAA "issues").

Not ready to give up on 2013 (it's a 100 to 1 shot but maybe Sanchez gets to play. That said, by no means am I counting on it) but next season it is a MUST for this team/program to get an NCAA bid.

Even the most loyal fans will jump ship, for good, if we don't.

 

[otis]

This situation is not as complicated as it seems.

Lavin needs an experienced "Xs" and "Os" guy (see Mike Dunlap, George Blaney, Billy Hahn, and other assistants to successful head coaches who are thought to be more of a technical advisor than recruiter).

 

[bucketshardy]

I know this board, me too even, hates "waiting until next yr" but that is the reality we are in. It was the thought that we would have Sanchez this whole year, and based on "sources" and "reports", he sounds like the real deal and a large body that could have contributed plenty and given us a force downlow. Some of you may come back and argue that Lavin probably couldn't have made Sanchez useful even if he had him, but Gadzuric did well enough, so i will ignore that for now. After 2 years now of having 4 total players ineligible, hopefully he doesn't make the same mistake again, but having to rebuild from scratch he took a few chances/flyers and missed.

I think it would be awesome to see a lineup of Chris/Gift/Karr/D'Lo/Branch to start the season next year. Mixing in Dom/Garrett/Phil and the rest. Will kids be in the gym gettin up 1000 shots a day? They better be. And this isn't adding any new players to the fold. Foul shooting and the mid range game needs work and that is what should be stressed. Kids will improve.

Again, this was the first game we were not competitive in all year. We could easily be 3-1 and we could easily be 0-4. It's going to be that type of year guys, I don't know where the false hope was generated from...we were picked last by "experts," and I too hoped for better, but there was nothing out there saying we would be world beaters. I just hope they play harder than they did on Saturday.

 

[dee]

With Obepka shooting 25% from the line we can expect him to get fouled everytime he shoots resulting in the equivalent of a turnover. If gets 5 blocks a game and goes to the line 6 times, he's in effect a non-entity. (yea, I know he intimidates).

He needs a shooting coach!

Block shots dont necessarily result in getting the ball, He is altering some shots and you could even see that today. But mostly when he blocks a shot, it goes out of bounds or into the hands of the opposition.

U really are clue-less dee-herty..lol... This kid is the BEST shot-blocker in the country. PERIOD.

Yes he is blocking a lot of shots, but one of the things great shot blockers learn is to try and keep the ball in play for his own team. And he also has almost zero shot ability under the basket, had at least two balls passed to him when he wasnt paying attention and needs to learn a hook shot. While I am on hook shots, did you notice the Georgetown kid with the hook shot? Why didnt our guy keep his hands up and why wasnt he double teamed from the front> ? There is a lot about the play of this team that needs improving. I am just giving an opinion, there are always two sides to the story and more than two opinons for sure but I have been watching st johns basketball for more than 40 years and this team is not being coached correctly and they are not playing to their capabilities and believe me I love this coaching staff but something is wrong. Very wrong.

 

[beast of the east]

Not trying to spam. Just posted this in the Gtown thread, but belongs here:

on here.

I want to be very fair in this breakdown of Lavin's recruiting.

Year 1: Lavin had an entire roster to fill, and had to recruit for a program completely in the dumper. He was literally starting with virtually no program - a ten year record at the bottom of the Big East, and was going after guys that other coaches had a 2 or three year jump on. Hauling in Harkness and Harrison as the prizes, Lindsay (who tanked here), Garrett, Greene etc was a pretty nice start, along with Team Lavin turning NRs losing team into an NCAA tourney squad. All in all an A plus job or rebuilding

Year 2: Slowed by cancer, he comes up with Sampson, Branch, Obepka Balamou, Bourgault, Can't overstate how much the loss of harkness hurts. Sampson, Branch, Obepka are nice addditions, and with Harkness here, and Sampson as a third option (with offense from Greene and Branch) we could have beena tourney team.

Year 3: So far we haven't struck gold for next season, and that is a concern.

When you look at it this way it doesn't look horrible at all. Had Roberts left a squad with 3-4 underclassmen of Bif East ability (at the talent level of the starters that was on LAvin's 1st team) we'd be talking entirely differently today. So yea, as much as I'd hate to admit it, we are still in the hole that Norm left us in, and it will likely be felt until at least next year, and possibly won't be gone until the following year.

Tell me you are inebriated at a bar on 7th Ave. None of what you said justifies the current play of our team...none!
Last year, Dunlap had to manage a team of 5 freshmen and forget the record....they came better prepared than our current group of 12. Game management was much better also. Roberts excuses after hauling in 7 top 100 players??
LMAO!
FYI........Georgetown had 5 freshmen and 5 sophs on their team today.

Add a first round NBA pick to SJUs team and we are doing much better, no? Did Thompsom start recruiting two years ago from scratch, filling those 5 sophs in a few months, and did Thompsom start with the mess Lavin inherited?

Lavin did not inherit a mess! He inherited a bunch of under-recruited seniors who gave him 21 wins and a tourney selection. Are you that confident he can do that with his own players as juniors NEXT year???
If this same team hits the floor next year the only way Lavin wins 21 games is by the departure of Syracuse, ND, Louisville, Pitt, etc. and not with his own players who are underachieving more than Roberts' recruits since Norm's players had nowhere near the rankings coming in.
He "reportedly" (self reported) had two outstanding recruiting classes. Were they?
We have a promising shot blocking center who led in assists today but there is not one inside play designed to get him touches. We have a good point guard who cannot get more than one assist because our offensive scheme allows players to stand around.
It is one thing to get the players....quite another to develop them. Recruits will slowly get the message and will lean to schools with the "coaching".
Our coaches have a lot of work to do! They will have had 3 years to turn the corner. They are still quite a few NYC blocks away. I think it is time these out of towners got a subway map.

I couldn't disagree more with your assessments.

You are totally dismissive of where the program was the day Lavin set foot on campus. Do you really have to be reminded that Norm's overall record at SJU was 81-101, or that the group of seniors that Lavin got had gone 44-53 the previous three seasons? Or that his overall Big East record was 32-70, 17-37 with the group of under-recruited seniors.

That is one crazed assessment if you really believe Lavin inherited a seasoned group of upperclassmen. He took a team that finished 13th in the Big East at 6-12, and brought them to 21-12, 12-6 in league, and as high as 8th in the rankings.

Any coach who builds a team of seniors with nothing behind them has impending doom the following season. THAT is what Lavin inherited and any other way to spin this is pure nonsense.

We had not had an NBA player since Artest, and NR didn't recruit a Harkless, a Sampson, even a Harrison. No serious basketball player with high options would consider us, and suddenly Lavin is bringing in top 100 talent.

When you begin with a vacated roster as Lavin did two seasons ago, with less than a year to fill a complete roster, he did a pretty damned good job making us relevant again. RELEVENT, a word we used repeatedly during the end of Norm's tenure. We questioned whether SJU could ever be relevent in college basketball again.

So, even with a bout with cancer, with chemo kicking his ass, Lavin still has brought in some decent talent. Take away a jewel like Harkless, and we still have some decent talent on the roster after two classes. We all recognize the talent and experience of these kids is not enough TODAY to win consistently against Big East competition.

The reason we aren't ramming the ball into Obepka is that he is a pretty raw offensive player right now. Have you seen any offensiveskills on his part to think that dropping the ball into the low post to him for a one on one isolation will yield a mismatch or easy basket? Actually at this juncture, Obepka isnt even a good defender - he is ALWAYS looking to block shots, and is always out of position to defend and CERTAINLY to rebound. How else can you explain a shot blocking monster who doesn't rebound well?

What I'm frustrated with is the lack of cohesion on offense, the lack of ball movement without a ton of dribbling, the repeated draining of the shot clock. Our best offensive threat hangs out on the weak side, waiting for the ball to be swung to him as the clock ticks down. Once in his hands, he either fires it up, or shoots off the dribble,often ill advised shots, but makes a fair amount of shots.

What I see is a talented team of underclassmen that isn't quite talented enough to make up for their inexperience and lack of uppserclass leadership.

Beast and the other defenders of the realm ----- your definition of a "mess" and mine are polar opposites!
For those of you living in Maine, Massachusetts, Florida and California, this program hit rock bottom when Mike Jarvis was fired mid-season,  our team was revealed to be banging a hooker after a less than stellar game in Pittsburgh, players removed from campus, a player accusing the staff of under-the -table payments and the media and fans turning against the school.

That, my fine feathered Thunder fans is a effen mess!

Steve Lavin inherited a losing culture.  But to in any shape, matter or form compare it to what Roberts inherited is ludicrous!

Some of you armchair experts are only focusing on wins and losses during the Roberts era. Would Lavin have had any better record with those same players, none of whom were nationally ranked?  I have my doubts.

Roberts failure was never signing those two elite players to get him those extra 3 or 4 wins per season to keep us relevant and keep his job!  Now for all you Google analysts here....add 3 or 4 wins to his seasons and tell me that man would have been fired for the $600 K we were paying him!  I do not think so!

Now fast forward to the hot mess you claim Lavin inherited ---- He "supposedly" signed a top 3 recruiting class. Only problem, half of them failed to qualify.  It is great P/R and looked great on paper but it never happened.
ALL of us, me included, did not blink and gave him a pass with so many freshmen.....but he also had a couple of Roberts recruits he flushed down the toilet. He gave us the false impression that a virtual non-entity since HS, Nurideen Lindsey, may be "so good" he could jump to the NBA out of JC! 
Year one.....give him a pass, no question!  BTW, Lav never had one day of chemo ---- he had minimally invasive surgery, similar to Jim Calhoun at Sloan. He, and only he, chose not to listen to his doctors, and returned a few weeks too soon and set himself.....and the team back.....giving us the Nurideen and Stith departures and 5 freshmen to get a baptism of fire in the Big East. 
That baptism "should have" served our players well for this season, NO???
Not by the current "mess".
Current mess?  Lavin spent more time recruiting last season than any D1 coach. Our recovering coach re-engineered his job to that of GM.  Trips to California (multiple), Louisiana, and parts unknown yielded Felix Balamou, Marc-Antoine "we hardly knew ya", Max Hooper (Zero Harvard minutes) and the next Lenny Cooke legend in waiting Orlando Sanchez.
Now let's look at the current mess of a roster and review Lav's last Tweet that begins "If we don't sign one effen player for 2013..... YEAR THREE..... And I start to worry.  I would not worry if I were a Butler, Gonzaga, Xavier fan in that I do not expect a top 75 player........I do worry when that top 75 player is a Lavin recruit.  
Just looking at yesterday's Gtown-SJ rosters (yes, yes Moose, Gtown had 2 juniors-hurrah) but their frosh and sophs were well schooled in defense and back-door plays.  Could it be their SATs were a few points higher.....maybe.
But, we got out rebounded by around 15 boards and it was our coach that sat our senior and best rebounder to "save him" for next season----the magical 4th season.
Will it be a turnaround season or a mess?  Based on 2.5 years of recruiting, I am becoming just a little skeptical.

In terms of rock bottom, you could argue that the end of the Jarvis era was rock bottom. I disagree. Certainly the worst series of events possible. But I would also argue that we were hopeful that bringing in the right coach would reverse that by cleaning house, recruiting the right kids, and quickly restoring a program that was only in the dumper for 1 season. Roberts extended the dumper for 6 more seasons, could not get any blue shippers to come here, and dwelled constantly at the bottom of conference.

Not only couldn't Roberts coach a lick, but he proved himself more as a coffee boy for Bill Self than a top notch recruiter in his own right. Hell, I could recruit for Kansas. It takes little to nothing. What Lavin did in recruiting right off the bat has been nothing short of way beyond the most ardent supporter's expectations. What he suffers from today is that fans were spoiled by the immediate turnaround his first season, and thought the transformation was complete. He still was left with a big roster hole, and still doesn't have an upperclassman to lead this team. Next year should be much improved, and I would see his 4th season with his own kids as the mark to judge him by.

Are you sure about the lack of chemo/radiation? In any event, unless you are a cancer survivor or an oncologist and know better, your assertions here have no clinical validity.

This is just taking longer than anyone thought. If you prefer the Roberts years, good luck to you.

 

[bobre45]

Where is BOBRE when we need him? Where is the beef? We do not have one player that can set a pick with enough solidity that opposing players really want to avoid being picked. Actually we do not have one player with enough solidity that after the opposing player avoids them, they roll to the hoop and catch a simple pass for a layup and now our shooters, all of whom can shoot but with the exception of DLO can not get their own shots quickly, suddenly become much more accurate. Willie Hall, Bross, Davis, Johnson, Minlend, Grant, Middleton, Hamilton, Emanuel, Burrell, EVANS, and on and on and on, but not on this Lavin team. Where are Ron Roberts and Orlando Sanchez when you really really need them?

Just sitting back watching reality seep in. I've had my say and taken enough shots but it's surprising to read so many posts now that sound like I wrote them. Actually one look at this year's roster now that the Christian, Sanchez, GG, BS smoke has cleared really tells the story. We have less bulk and strength than some HS teams. DLo will be gone before Karr and CO are fully fledged and no saviors are on the horizon. As I've said before we are a team with a bunch of wings that can't get off the ground. I look at the rosters of the teams who beat us and there's no surprise whatsoever. Yeah we're one of America's youngest teams. Although we have some experience afforded by last year's roster disaster there's no muscle to back it up. Is there a legit 220 pounder anywhere near the program? The way it is now either Karr and DLo have a great game or we're pigeon fodder. Unfortunately this fact is now well lnown and we've become easy to defend. As always it's gonna be a long one but I've now become more selective in deciding which games are worth the long ride to frustrationland. I thank Lavin for the gas savings but I'm feeling pretty dumb in keeping the tickets once again. Unfortunately old habits (and fans) die hard.

 

[Class of 72]

Not trying to spam. Just posted this in the Gtown thread, but belongs here:

on here.

I want to be very fair in this breakdown of Lavin's recruiting.

Year 1: Lavin had an entire roster to fill, and had to recruit for a program completely in the dumper. He was literally starting with virtually no program - a ten year record at the bottom of the Big East, and was going after guys that other coaches had a 2 or three year jump on. Hauling in Harkness and Harrison as the prizes, Lindsay (who tanked here), Garrett, Greene etc was a pretty nice start, along with Team Lavin turning NRs losing team into an NCAA tourney squad. All in all an A plus job or rebuilding

Year 2: Slowed by cancer, he comes up with Sampson, Branch, Obepka Balamou, Bourgault, Can't overstate how much the loss of harkness hurts. Sampson, Branch, Obepka are nice addditions, and with Harkness here, and Sampson as a third option (with offense from Greene and Branch) we could have beena tourney team.

Year 3: So far we haven't struck gold for next season, and that is a concern.

When you look at it this way it doesn't look horrible at all. Had Roberts left a squad with 3-4 underclassmen of Bif East ability (at the talent level of the starters that was on LAvin's 1st team) we'd be talking entirely differently today. So yea, as much as I'd hate to admit it, we are still in the hole that Norm left us in, and it will likely be felt until at least next year, and possibly won't be gone until the following year.

Tell me you are inebriated at a bar on 7th Ave. None of what you said justifies the current play of our team...none!
Last year, Dunlap had to manage a team of 5 freshmen and forget the record....they came better prepared than our current group of 12. Game management was much better also. Roberts excuses after hauling in 7 top 100 players??
LMAO!
FYI........Georgetown had 5 freshmen and 5 sophs on their team today.

Add a first round NBA pick to SJUs team and we are doing much better, no? Did Thompsom start recruiting two years ago from scratch, filling those 5 sophs in a few months, and did Thompsom start with the mess Lavin inherited?

Lavin did not inherit a mess! He inherited a bunch of under-recruited seniors who gave him 21 wins and a tourney selection. Are you that confident he can do that with his own players as juniors NEXT year???
If this same team hits the floor next year the only way Lavin wins 21 games is by the departure of Syracuse, ND, Louisville, Pitt, etc. and not with his own players who are underachieving more than Roberts' recruits since Norm's players had nowhere near the rankings coming in.
He "reportedly" (self reported) had two outstanding recruiting classes. Were they?
We have a promising shot blocking center who led in assists today but there is not one inside play designed to get him touches. We have a good point guard who cannot get more than one assist because our offensive scheme allows players to stand around.
It is one thing to get the players....quite another to develop them. Recruits will slowly get the message and will lean to schools with the "coaching".
Our coaches have a lot of work to do! They will have had 3 years to turn the corner. They are still quite a few NYC blocks away. I think it is time these out of towners got a subway map.

I couldn't disagree more with your assessments.

You are totally dismissive of where the program was the day Lavin set foot on campus. Do you really have to be reminded that Norm's overall record at SJU was 81-101, or that the group of seniors that Lavin got had gone 44-53 the previous three seasons? Or that his overall Big East record was 32-70, 17-37 with the group of under-recruited seniors.

That is one crazed assessment if you really believe Lavin inherited a seasoned group of upperclassmen. He took a team that finished 13th in the Big East at 6-12, and brought them to 21-12, 12-6 in league, and as high as 8th in the rankings.

Any coach who builds a team of seniors with nothing behind them has impending doom the following season. THAT is what Lavin inherited and any other way to spin this is pure nonsense.

We had not had an NBA player since Artest, and NR didn't recruit a Harkless, a Sampson, even a Harrison. No serious basketball player with high options would consider us, and suddenly Lavin is bringing in top 100 talent.

When you begin with a vacated roster as Lavin did two seasons ago, with less than a year to fill a complete roster, he did a pretty damned good job making us relevant again. RELEVENT, a word we used repeatedly during the end of Norm's tenure. We questioned whether SJU could ever be relevent in college basketball again.

So, even with a bout with cancer, with chemo kicking his ass, Lavin still has brought in some decent talent. Take away a jewel like Harkless, and we still have some decent talent on the roster after two classes. We all recognize the talent and experience of these kids is not enough TODAY to win consistently against Big East competition.

The reason we aren't ramming the ball into Obepka is that he is a pretty raw offensive player right now. Have you seen any offensiveskills on his part to think that dropping the ball into the low post to him for a one on one isolation will yield a mismatch or easy basket? Actually at this juncture, Obepka isnt even a good defender - he is ALWAYS looking to block shots, and is always out of position to defend and CERTAINLY to rebound. How else can you explain a shot blocking monster who doesn't rebound well?

What I'm frustrated with is the lack of cohesion on offense, the lack of ball movement without a ton of dribbling, the repeated draining of the shot clock. Our best offensive threat hangs out on the weak side, waiting for the ball to be swung to him as the clock ticks down. Once in his hands, he either fires it up, or shoots off the dribble,often ill advised shots, but makes a fair amount of shots.

What I see is a talented team of underclassmen that isn't quite talented enough to make up for their inexperience and lack of uppserclass leadership.

Beast and the other defenders of the realm ----- your definition of a "mess" and mine are polar opposites!
For those of you living in Maine, Massachusetts, Florida and California, this program hit rock bottom when Mike Jarvis was fired mid-season,  our team was revealed to be banging a hooker after a less than stellar game in Pittsburgh, players removed from campus, a player accusing the staff of under-the -table payments and the media and fans turning against the school.

That, my fine feathered Thunder fans is a effen mess!

Steve Lavin inherited a losing culture.  But to in any shape, matter or form compare it to what Roberts inherited is ludicrous!

Some of you armchair experts are only focusing on wins and losses during the Roberts era. Would Lavin have had any better record with those same players, none of whom were nationally ranked?  I have my doubts.

Roberts failure was never signing those two elite players to get him those extra 3 or 4 wins per season to keep us relevant and keep his job!  Now for all you Google analysts here....add 3 or 4 wins to his seasons and tell me that man would have been fired for the $600 K we were paying him!  I do not think so!

Now fast forward to the hot mess you claim Lavin inherited ---- He "supposedly" signed a top 3 recruiting class. Only problem, half of them failed to qualify.  It is great P/R and looked great on paper but it never happened.
ALL of us, me included, did not blink and gave him a pass with so many freshmen.....but he also had a couple of Roberts recruits he flushed down the toilet. He gave us the false impression that a virtual non-entity since HS, Nurideen Lindsey, may be "so good" he could jump to the NBA out of JC! 
Year one.....give him a pass, no question!  BTW, Lav never had one day of chemo ---- he had minimally invasive surgery, similar to Jim Calhoun at Sloan. He, and only he, chose not to listen to his doctors, and returned a few weeks too soon and set himself.....and the team back.....giving us the Nurideen and Stith departures and 5 freshmen to get a baptism of fire in the Big East. 
That baptism "should have" served our players well for this season, NO???
Not by the current "mess".
Current mess?  Lavin spent more time recruiting last season than any D1 coach. Our recovering coach re-engineered his job to that of GM.  Trips to California (multiple), Louisiana, and parts unknown yielded Felix Balamou, Marc-Antoine "we hardly knew ya", Max Hooper (Zero Harvard minutes) and the next Lenny Cooke legend in waiting Orlando Sanchez.
Now let's look at the current mess of a roster and review Lav's last Tweet that begins "If we don't sign one effen player for 2013..... YEAR THREE..... And I start to worry.  I would not worry if I were a Butler, Gonzaga, Xavier fan in that I do not expect a top 75 player........I do worry when that top 75 player is a Lavin recruit.  
Just looking at yesterday's Gtown-SJ rosters (yes, yes Moose, Gtown had 2 juniors-hurrah) but their frosh and sophs were well schooled in defense and back-door plays.  Could it be their SATs were a few points higher.....maybe.
But, we got out rebounded by around 15 boards and it was our coach that sat our senior and best rebounder to "save him" for next season----the magical 4th season.
Will it be a turnaround season or a mess?  Based on 2.5 years of recruiting, I am becoming just a little skeptical.

In terms of rock bottom, you could argue that the end of the Jarvis era was rock bottom. I disagree. Certainly the worst series of events possible. But I would also argue that we were hopeful that bringing in the right coach would reverse that by cleaning house, recruiting the right kids, and quickly restoring a program that was only in the dumper for 1 season. Roberts extended the dumper for 6 more seasons, could not get any blue shippers to come here, and dwelled constantly at the bottom of conference.

Not only couldn't Roberts coach a lick, but he proved himself more as a coffee boy for Bill Self than a top notch recruiter in his own right. Hell, I could recruit for Kansas. It takes little to nothing. What Lavin did in recruiting right off the bat has been nothing short of way beyond the most ardent supporter's expectations. What he suffers from today is that fans were spoiled by the immediate turnaround his first season, and thought the transformation was complete. He still was left with a big roster hole, and still doesn't have an upperclassman to lead this team. Next year should be much improved, and I would see his 4th season with his own kids as the mark to judge him by.

Are you sure about the lack of chemo/radiation? In any event, unless you are a cancer survivor or an oncologist and know better, your assertions here have no clinical validity.

This is just taking longer than anyone thought. If you prefer the Roberts years, good luck to you.

I am 100% certain about the "Lavin treatment". A few people on this board know how and why I know. I will leave it at that.
And, I never said I preferred Roberts but that to continue blaming him three years after he was dismissed is a cop out.
I was not expecting an NCAA bid from this team. It was signed, sealed and delivered with high expectations by this staff, not Roberts!
We played with SIX players most of last year but executed better! After a year of "full time" recruiting coast-to-coast north-to -south, the only significant recruits he actually brought on board were a recruit he had to "re-recruit" and a promising shot blocker not ready-for-prime time. The rest of the class was a mirage!!
Max Hooper? Next year........any good? Your guess as good as mine!
Orlando Sanchez? His career is almost over......then again...it never began!
Christian Jones? Buried further than my foot up FUN's ass!
Darrick Woods.......was is Wood, Woods or woulda'?
The Louisiana Kids......elsewhere.........

My biggest issue that has made me one pissed paesan' is the red-shirting of Gift.....the only player that could have added some value in the rebounding department and in intelligence and maturity. The second, but smaller issue, is the total lack of player discipline and development. Any of you who see any semblance of a controlled offense or an aggressive, intelligent defense are watching a different team.

Some of you guys make comments from your experience watching this team from your long-distance romance from across the country. It is a different experience up close and personal. The silence at MSG was truly a sad and low point for our players and fans. How it played on TV for you guys in California and Florida is the difference between watching sex on your computer and paying to have it in person. In person, the experience was deflating!

So please don't tell me I am wrong and try to school me. That is like telling Kranmars you know how to make a better Sunday sauce or the Maven how to hold a wine glass.

I want our players to learn and become the best possible players they can be but I do not see it yet. I do not see key players needed to be consistent game to game like a pure shooter (versus a devil-may-care scorer) and a rebounder or a small forward with a smooth jumper. We have none of those on this team. To just add a player like Lawrence may not be enough in year 4.
I think bigger changes are coming than any here expect.

 

[Moose]

With Obepka shooting 25% from the line we can expect him to get fouled everytime he shoots resulting in the equivalent of a turnover. If gets 5 blocks a game and goes to the line 6 times, he's in effect a non-entity. (yea, I know he intimidates).

He needs a shooting coach!

Block shots dont necessarily result in getting the ball, He is altering some shots and you could even see that today. But mostly when he blocks a shot, it goes out of bounds or into the hands of the opposition.

U really are clue-less dee-herty..lol... This kid is the BEST shot-blocker in the country. PERIOD.

Yes he is blocking a lot of shots, but one of the things great shot blockers learn is to try and keep the ball in play for his own team. And he also has almost zero shot ability under the basket, had at least two balls passed to him when he wasnt paying attention and needs to learn a hook shot. While I am on hook shots, did you notice the Georgetown kid with the hook shot? Why didnt our guy keep his hands up and why wasnt he double teamed from the front> ? There is a lot about the play of this team that needs improving. I am just giving an opinion, there are always two sides to the story and more than two opinons for sure but I have been watching st johns basketball for more than 40 years and this team is not being coached correctly and they are not playing to their capabilities and believe me I love this coaching staff but something is wrong. Very wrong.

What game are you watching. If Obekpa does anything its keeping the ball in play when he blocks it.

 

[NYCRedmen]

I think the questions really need to be raised: are we cursed? Will be ever be a top 25 team again on a consistent basis? Will we ever be among the Big East elite again? I'm not even being a wise ass...I mean at a certain point when does this team become the Islanders and essentially give up and refrain from being a factor ever again? 1 NCAA berth in the past decade, high expectations and failure are consistent undertones of this team. This team is so frustrating to watch that even getting the #1, #2, #3, #4, and #5 recruits in the nation would not make me a believer. I don't care if we got Jordan in his prime. This team just does not know how to succeed and I will not believe there are brighter days until the brighter days COME. It has been 3 years guys, it's getting to the point where the honeymoon period is over. Saying better days are ahead is reckless when there is zero evidence suggesting our time is coming. Instead of having blind faith in this team, how about this team gives us a real reason to show up? This board constantly kills students and other fans for not showing up to games with few exceptions i.e. G'Town, Cuse, Nova, etc. but they are not to blame. The team is. It's about supply and demand and right now there's plenty of supply and zero demand...the value of going to a SJ game is laughably low. Paying $40 for a nosebleed seat to watch your team shoot 30% FT 35% FG and 17% 3PT is the definition of insanity. When most relatively athletic average men can shoot around in a gym for a better percentage than our FT% there is something terribly wrong. We were #312 out of 340 schools BEFORE the G'Town game. We might be #330 now if not dead last with that performance. St. John's does a great job of keeping its fans in hibernation mode. That's one thing we do well. This is a team that will compete admirably for the basement slot in the conference. Consider this ignorant, or a cold splash of reality, but this is the state of our program.

It's Curse of Chief Blackjack, his spirit is appalled that we chant "Lets Go Johnnies" ; )

 

[mjmaherjr]

Not trying to spam. Just posted this in the Gtown thread, but belongs here:

on here.

I want to be very fair in this breakdown of Lavin's recruiting.

Year 1: Lavin had an entire roster to fill, and had to recruit for a program completely in the dumper. He was literally starting with virtually no program - a ten year record at the bottom of the Big East, and was going after guys that other coaches had a 2 or three year jump on. Hauling in Harkness and Harrison as the prizes, Lindsay (who tanked here), Garrett, Greene etc was a pretty nice start, along with Team Lavin turning NRs losing team into an NCAA tourney squad. All in all an A plus job or rebuilding

Year 2: Slowed by cancer, he comes up with Sampson, Branch, Obepka Balamou, Bourgault, Can't overstate how much the loss of harkness hurts. Sampson, Branch, Obepka are nice addditions, and with Harkness here, and Sampson as a third option (with offense from Greene and Branch) we could have beena tourney team.

Year 3: So far we haven't struck gold for next season, and that is a concern.

When you look at it this way it doesn't look horrible at all. Had Roberts left a squad with 3-4 underclassmen of Bif East ability (at the talent level of the starters that was on LAvin's 1st team) we'd be talking entirely differently today. So yea, as much as I'd hate to admit it, we are still in the hole that Norm left us in, and it will likely be felt until at least next year, and possibly won't be gone until the following year.

Tell me you are inebriated at a bar on 7th Ave. None of what you said justifies the current play of our team...none!
Last year, Dunlap had to manage a team of 5 freshmen and forget the record....they came better prepared than our current group of 12. Game management was much better also. Roberts excuses after hauling in 7 top 100 players??
LMAO!
FYI........Georgetown had 5 freshmen and 5 sophs on their team today.

Add a first round NBA pick to SJUs team and we are doing much better, no? Did Thompsom start recruiting two years ago from scratch, filling those 5 sophs in a few months, and did Thompsom start with the mess Lavin inherited?

Lavin did not inherit a mess! He inherited a bunch of under-recruited seniors who gave him 21 wins and a tourney selection. Are you that confident he can do that with his own players as juniors NEXT year???
If this same team hits the floor next year the only way Lavin wins 21 games is by the departure of Syracuse, ND, Louisville, Pitt, etc. and not with his own players who are underachieving more than Roberts' recruits since Norm's players had nowhere near the rankings coming in.
He "reportedly" (self reported) had two outstanding recruiting classes. Were they?
We have a promising shot blocking center who led in assists today but there is not one inside play designed to get him touches. We have a good point guard who cannot get more than one assist because our offensive scheme allows players to stand around.
It is one thing to get the players....quite another to develop them. Recruits will slowly get the message and will lean to schools with the "coaching".
Our coaches have a lot of work to do! They will have had 3 years to turn the corner. They are still quite a few NYC blocks away. I think it is time these out of towners got a subway map.

I couldn't disagree more with your assessments.

You are totally dismissive of where the program was the day Lavin set foot on campus. Do you really have to be reminded that Norm's overall record at SJU was 81-101, or that the group of seniors that Lavin got had gone 44-53 the previous three seasons? Or that his overall Big East record was 32-70, 17-37 with the group of under-recruited seniors.

That is one crazed assessment if you really believe Lavin inherited a seasoned group of upperclassmen. He took a team that finished 13th in the Big East at 6-12, and brought them to 21-12, 12-6 in league, and as high as 8th in the rankings.

Any coach who builds a team of seniors with nothing behind them has impending doom the following season. THAT is what Lavin inherited and any other way to spin this is pure nonsense.

We had not had an NBA player since Artest, and NR didn't recruit a Harkless, a Sampson, even a Harrison. No serious basketball player with high options would consider us, and suddenly Lavin is bringing in top 100 talent.

When you begin with a vacated roster as Lavin did two seasons ago, with less than a year to fill a complete roster, he did a pretty damned good job making us relevant again. RELEVENT, a word we used repeatedly during the end of Norm's tenure. We questioned whether SJU could ever be relevent in college basketball again.

So, even with a bout with cancer, with chemo kicking his ass, Lavin still has brought in some decent talent. Take away a jewel like Harkless, and we still have some decent talent on the roster after two classes. We all recognize the talent and experience of these kids is not enough TODAY to win consistently against Big East competition.

The reason we aren't ramming the ball into Obepka is that he is a pretty raw offensive player right now. Have you seen any offensiveskills on his part to think that dropping the ball into the low post to him for a one on one isolation will yield a mismatch or easy basket? Actually at this juncture, Obepka isnt even a good defender - he is ALWAYS looking to block shots, and is always out of position to defend and CERTAINLY to rebound. How else can you explain a shot blocking monster who doesn't rebound well?

What I'm frustrated with is the lack of cohesion on offense, the lack of ball movement without a ton of dribbling, the repeated draining of the shot clock. Our best offensive threat hangs out on the weak side, waiting for the ball to be swung to him as the clock ticks down. Once in his hands, he either fires it up, or shoots off the dribble,often ill advised shots, but makes a fair amount of shots.

What I see is a talented team of underclassmen that isn't quite talented enough to make up for their inexperience and lack of uppserclass leadership.

Some of you armchair experts are only focusing on wins and losses during the Roberts era. Would Lavin have had any better record with those same players, none of whom were nationally ranked?  I have my doubts.


, .

Come on 72. Lavin took those same exact Roberts players who won nothing collectively here and the following year ( his 1st with us ) gave us one of the most memorable regular seasons we've ever had and probably the best set of home game results at the garden I've ever had in 20 years since graduation

No way in hell Norm does that. You make good other points but come on now lets be a little fair with this.

 

[Class of 72]

Not trying to spam. Just posted this in the Gtown thread, but belongs here:

on here.

I want to be very fair in this breakdown of Lavin's recruiting.

Year 1: Lavin had an entire roster to fill, and had to recruit for a program completely in the dumper. He was literally starting with virtually no program - a ten year record at the bottom of the Big East, and was going after guys that other coaches had a 2 or three year jump on. Hauling in Harkness and Harrison as the prizes, Lindsay (who tanked here), Garrett, Greene etc was a pretty nice start, along with Team Lavin turning NRs losing team into an NCAA tourney squad. All in all an A plus job or rebuilding

Year 2: Slowed by cancer, he comes up with Sampson, Branch, Obepka Balamou, Bourgault, Can't overstate how much the loss of harkness hurts. Sampson, Branch, Obepka are nice addditions, and with Harkness here, and Sampson as a third option (with offense from Greene and Branch) we could have beena tourney team.

Year 3: So far we haven't struck gold for next season, and that is a concern.

When you look at it this way it doesn't look horrible at all. Had Roberts left a squad with 3-4 underclassmen of Bif East ability (at the talent level of the starters that was on LAvin's 1st team) we'd be talking entirely differently today. So yea, as much as I'd hate to admit it, we are still in the hole that Norm left us in, and it will likely be felt until at least next year, and possibly won't be gone until the following year.

Tell me you are inebriated at a bar on 7th Ave. None of what you said justifies the current play of our team...none!
Last year, Dunlap had to manage a team of 5 freshmen and forget the record....they came better prepared than our current group of 12. Game management was much better also. Roberts excuses after hauling in 7 top 100 players??
LMAO!
FYI........Georgetown had 5 freshmen and 5 sophs on their team today.

Add a first round NBA pick to SJUs team and we are doing much better, no? Did Thompsom start recruiting two years ago from scratch, filling those 5 sophs in a few months, and did Thompsom start with the mess Lavin inherited?

Lavin did not inherit a mess! He inherited a bunch of under-recruited seniors who gave him 21 wins and a tourney selection. Are you that confident he can do that with his own players as juniors NEXT year???
If this same team hits the floor next year the only way Lavin wins 21 games is by the departure of Syracuse, ND, Louisville, Pitt, etc. and not with his own players who are underachieving more than Roberts' recruits since Norm's players had nowhere near the rankings coming in.
He "reportedly" (self reported) had two outstanding recruiting classes. Were they?
We have a promising shot blocking center who led in assists today but there is not one inside play designed to get him touches. We have a good point guard who cannot get more than one assist because our offensive scheme allows players to stand around.
It is one thing to get the players....quite another to develop them. Recruits will slowly get the message and will lean to schools with the "coaching".
Our coaches have a lot of work to do! They will have had 3 years to turn the corner. They are still quite a few NYC blocks away. I think it is time these out of towners got a subway map.

I couldn't disagree more with your assessments.

You are totally dismissive of where the program was the day Lavin set foot on campus. Do you really have to be reminded that Norm's overall record at SJU was 81-101, or that the group of seniors that Lavin got had gone 44-53 the previous three seasons? Or that his overall Big East record was 32-70, 17-37 with the group of under-recruited seniors.

That is one crazed assessment if you really believe Lavin inherited a seasoned group of upperclassmen. He took a team that finished 13th in the Big East at 6-12, and brought them to 21-12, 12-6 in league, and as high as 8th in the rankings.

Any coach who builds a team of seniors with nothing behind them has impending doom the following season. THAT is what Lavin inherited and any other way to spin this is pure nonsense.

We had not had an NBA player since Artest, and NR didn't recruit a Harkless, a Sampson, even a Harrison. No serious basketball player with high options would consider us, and suddenly Lavin is bringing in top 100 talent.

When you begin with a vacated roster as Lavin did two seasons ago, with less than a year to fill a complete roster, he did a pretty damned good job making us relevant again. RELEVENT, a word we used repeatedly during the end of Norm's tenure. We questioned whether SJU could ever be relevent in college basketball again.

So, even with a bout with cancer, with chemo kicking his ass, Lavin still has brought in some decent talent. Take away a jewel like Harkless, and we still have some decent talent on the roster after two classes. We all recognize the talent and experience of these kids is not enough TODAY to win consistently against Big East competition.

The reason we aren't ramming the ball into Obepka is that he is a pretty raw offensive player right now. Have you seen any offensiveskills on his part to think that dropping the ball into the low post to him for a one on one isolation will yield a mismatch or easy basket? Actually at this juncture, Obepka isnt even a good defender - he is ALWAYS looking to block shots, and is always out of position to defend and CERTAINLY to rebound. How else can you explain a shot blocking monster who doesn't rebound well?

What I'm frustrated with is the lack of cohesion on offense, the lack of ball movement without a ton of dribbling, the repeated draining of the shot clock. Our best offensive threat hangs out on the weak side, waiting for the ball to be swung to him as the clock ticks down. Once in his hands, he either fires it up, or shoots off the dribble,often ill advised shots, but makes a fair amount of shots.

What I see is a talented team of underclassmen that isn't quite talented enough to make up for their inexperience and lack of uppserclass leadership.

Some of you armchair experts are only focusing on wins and losses during the Roberts era. Would Lavin have had any better record with those same players, none of whom were nationally ranked?  I have my doubts.


, .

Come on 72. Lavin took those same exact Roberts players who won nothing collectively here and the following year ( his 1st with us ) gace us one of the most memorable regular seasons we've ever had and probably the best set of home game results at the garden I've ever had in 20 years since graduation

No way in hell Norm does that. You make good other points but come on now lets be a little fair with this.

So you give all the credit for that "memorable" first year with Roberts's players to Lavin??
Those kids had to adjust to a new coach and a new system in a matter of a few months. They were on the court, not Lavin, familiar with each others' game. The two players that had the hardest adjustment were DJ and Sean.....two kids closest to Norm.
For those here that like to play the Freshman, Soph, junior, senior cards.....Lavin had all seniors and one freshman that was his.....and quickly started the current tradition...of leaving the team.
I enjoy watching players play...not coaches coaching. I give some credit to Lavin in 2010' I give a lot more to our kids that had a major adjustment having to play for him.
P.S. May I remind you that the "bat" carried by those players belonged to Mike Dunlap. The practice I attended Justin had the honor. The next it was DJ.
Now we have a hammer but we cannot hit the rock. Winky!

 

[mjmaherjr]

Not trying to spam. Just posted this in the Gtown thread, but belongs here:

on here.

I want to be very fair in this breakdown of Lavin's recruiting.

Year 1: Lavin had an entire roster to fill, and had to recruit for a program completely in the dumper. He was literally starting with virtually no program - a ten year record at the bottom of the Big East, and was going after guys that other coaches had a 2 or three year jump on. Hauling in Harkness and Harrison as the prizes, Lindsay (who tanked here), Garrett, Greene etc was a pretty nice start, along with Team Lavin turning NRs losing team into an NCAA tourney squad. All in all an A plus job or rebuilding

Year 2: Slowed by cancer, he comes up with Sampson, Branch, Obepka Balamou, Bourgault, Can't overstate how much the loss of harkness hurts. Sampson, Branch, Obepka are nice addditions, and with Harkness here, and Sampson as a third option (with offense from Greene and Branch) we could have beena tourney team.

Year 3: So far we haven't struck gold for next season, and that is a concern.

When you look at it this way it doesn't look horrible at all. Had Roberts left a squad with 3-4 underclassmen of Bif East ability (at the talent level of the starters that was on LAvin's 1st team) we'd be talking entirely differently today. So yea, as much as I'd hate to admit it, we are still in the hole that Norm left us in, and it will likely be felt until at least next year, and possibly won't be gone until the following year.

Tell me you are inebriated at a bar on 7th Ave. None of what you said justifies the current play of our team...none!
Last year, Dunlap had to manage a team of 5 freshmen and forget the record....they came better prepared than our current group of 12. Game management was much better also. Roberts excuses after hauling in 7 top 100 players??
LMAO!
FYI........Georgetown had 5 freshmen and 5 sophs on their team today.

Add a first round NBA pick to SJUs team and we are doing much better, no? Did Thompsom start recruiting two years ago from scratch, filling those 5 sophs in a few months, and did Thompsom start with the mess Lavin inherited?

Lavin did not inherit a mess! He inherited a bunch of under-recruited seniors who gave him 21 wins and a tourney selection. Are you that confident he can do that with his own players as juniors NEXT year???
If this same team hits the floor next year the only way Lavin wins 21 games is by the departure of Syracuse, ND, Louisville, Pitt, etc. and not with his own players who are underachieving more than Roberts' recruits since Norm's players had nowhere near the rankings coming in.
He "reportedly" (self reported) had two outstanding recruiting classes. Were they?
We have a promising shot blocking center who led in assists today but there is not one inside play designed to get him touches. We have a good point guard who cannot get more than one assist because our offensive scheme allows players to stand around.
It is one thing to get the players....quite another to develop them. Recruits will slowly get the message and will lean to schools with the "coaching".
Our coaches have a lot of work to do! They will have had 3 years to turn the corner. They are still quite a few NYC blocks away. I think it is time these out of towners got a subway map.

I couldn't disagree more with your assessments.

You are totally dismissive of where the program was the day Lavin set foot on campus. Do you really have to be reminded that Norm's overall record at SJU was 81-101, or that the group of seniors that Lavin got had gone 44-53 the previous three seasons? Or that his overall Big East record was 32-70, 17-37 with the group of under-recruited seniors.

That is one crazed assessment if you really believe Lavin inherited a seasoned group of upperclassmen. He took a team that finished 13th in the Big East at 6-12, and brought them to 21-12, 12-6 in league, and as high as 8th in the rankings.

Any coach who builds a team of seniors with nothing behind them has impending doom the following season. THAT is what Lavin inherited and any other way to spin this is pure nonsense.

We had not had an NBA player since Artest, and NR didn't recruit a Harkless, a Sampson, even a Harrison. No serious basketball player with high options would consider us, and suddenly Lavin is bringing in top 100 talent.

When you begin with a vacated roster as Lavin did two seasons ago, with less than a year to fill a complete roster, he did a pretty damned good job making us relevant again. RELEVENT, a word we used repeatedly during the end of Norm's tenure. We questioned whether SJU could ever be relevent in college basketball again.

So, even with a bout with cancer, with chemo kicking his ass, Lavin still has brought in some decent talent. Take away a jewel like Harkless, and we still have some decent talent on the roster after two classes. We all recognize the talent and experience of these kids is not enough TODAY to win consistently against Big East competition.

The reason we aren't ramming the ball into Obepka is that he is a pretty raw offensive player right now. Have you seen any offensiveskills on his part to think that dropping the ball into the low post to him for a one on one isolation will yield a mismatch or easy basket? Actually at this juncture, Obepka isnt even a good defender - he is ALWAYS looking to block shots, and is always out of position to defend and CERTAINLY to rebound. How else can you explain a shot blocking monster who doesn't rebound well?

What I'm frustrated with is the lack of cohesion on offense, the lack of ball movement without a ton of dribbling, the repeated draining of the shot clock. Our best offensive threat hangs out on the weak side, waiting for the ball to be swung to him as the clock ticks down. Once in his hands, he either fires it up, or shoots off the dribble,often ill advised shots, but makes a fair amount of shots.

What I see is a talented team of underclassmen that isn't quite talented enough to make up for their inexperience and lack of uppserclass leadership.

Some of you armchair experts are only focusing on wins and losses during the Roberts era. Would Lavin have had any better record with those same players, none of whom were nationally ranked?  I have my doubts.


, .

Come on 72. Lavin took those same exact Roberts players who won nothing collectively here and the following year ( his 1st with us ) gace us one of the most memorable regular seasons we've ever had and probably the best set of home game results at the garden I've ever had in 20 years since graduation

No way in hell Norm does that. You make good other points but come on now lets be a little fair with this.

So you give all the credit for that "memorable" first year with Roberts's players to Lavin??
Those kids had to adjust to a new coach and a new system in a matter of a few months. They were on the court, not Lavin, familiar with each others' game. The two players that had the hardest adjustment were DJ and Sean.....two kids closest to Norm.
For those here that like to play the Freshman, Soph, junior, senior cards.....Lavin had all seniors and one freshman that was his.....and quickly started the current tradition...of leaving the team.
I enjoy watching players play...not coaches coaching. I give some credit to Lavin in 2010' I give a lot more to our kids that had a major adjustment having to play for him.
P.S. May I remind you that the "bat" carried by those players belonged to Mike Dunlap. The practice I attended Justin had the honor. The next it was DJ.
Now we have a hammer but we cannot hit the rock. Winky!

Those kids showed NO sign they were ever going to win. They would NEVER have done what they did if Norm was here or if they had to play on their own.

Ever think they won because of the System that Lavin implemented and they learned ?

For crying out loud look at who we beat that year and how we beat them.

Methinks if I went back and looked at your posts from that season that you would have been giving Lavin plenty of credit

What's happened this year is certianly open for criticism and some anger ( especially yesterdays game ) but lets not reinvent history.

Save the energy and writing for potentially welcoming Jermaine Lawrence according to SJU79

 

[Booksnball]

Been away awhile, but have remaned an admirer of the "spark" Lavin & his coaches ignited around the program. A few perspectives from an old school guy who has been around a while in the HS ranks, locally & nationally. (Still learning something everyday!)

His recruting classes ( even minus the non-qualifiers) have received nothing but stellar reviews from the recruiting experts. The make-up of his coaching staff received even higher marks. Obviously his being away from the program last year was not helpful.

What troubles me is the inside reports I heard about the immaturity of last years group to respond to the hard nosed demands of coach Dunlap's 'style' of playing HARD defense for 40 minutes a game. Couple that with the tendency to 'do it myself' mentality of the guards & the resulting losing record was to be expected. Obviously Dunlap KNIOWS HIS stuff, otherwise he wouldn't have gotten his NBA opportunity. Right now, it appears that last years rookies, this years 'young' vets need a refresher course in this regard.

You have a future Hall of Fame mentor at practice in Gene Keady who's Perdue teams reflected his U.S. Marine background, you have Tony Childs & 'Mo" Hicks who played hard nosed NYC hoops at the HS & College level & in the case of Mo coached his Rice HS teams to play a pressing style of D from the team bus to the court 24/7.

I've seen a few things that are puzzling to me. One is the solo play of the guards & really ANY wing player who receives a pass. They seem to take no more then 3 seconds before THEY decide "it's up to me do get to the hoop & score." Where are the passes to a cutting player? Where is the cutting player? Where are the screens for a player to get a better shot ? Most importantly to being a team that's in it to win it every game out, WHERE'S THE TOUGH IN YOUR FACE DEFENSE THAT KEEPS YOU IN GAMES UNTIL YOU FIND A WAY TO WIN ?

I don't know what's being emphasized at practice, but I do know that if you want to get a player's attention you tell him/them that IF YOU'RE NOT PLAYING HARD & UNSELFISH come take a seat. There are enough long, lean athletic players on the roster where a large dose of a pressing, trapping, ALL OUT defense for all 84 ft. & 40 minutes could be the spark to ignite this team & get the season on track. Mike Woodson used the same message with the Knicks & who can deny that the Knicks got better. And young Mr. Harrison & similar minded players, NO NBA SCOUT/TEAM/COACH IS IMPRESSED BY SELFISH, NOT SMART, DO IT YOURSELF PLAY. 6'2" shooting guards in college have to become a TEAM FIRST PG inorder to have a long term career. WAKE UP!

I've never been a "the ship be sinking guy", more a "row until the damm engine kicks in" guy. So hopefully Saturday's loss will be a wake-up call and we'll see a re-energized team vs ND. As in all things hoops, time will tell.