The Last Dance

im so tired of this myth that super teams has taken over the NBA.

Kevin Durant is annoying as hell for going to the Warriors, yes, but LeBron James has played 11 of his 17 seasons on the garbage organization he was drafted for.

So many older guys checked out on the NBA when LeBron went to Miami and its so funny to me because every single finals that Miami was in they played against a team with equal amount of hall of famers, and all of those finals were entertaining to watch. So the idea that that ruined the NBA is so dumb to me. The only finals in the last 15 years that I think truly was ruined because of super star movement was the 2018 NBA Finals between the Cavs and the Warriors. Thats it. Everything else has been competitive.

The NBA is in a phenomenal place right now, with nearly half of the teams in the league having star duos.

LAC: Kawhi, Paul George
LAL: LeBron, Anthony Davis
Dallas: Doncic, Porzingis
GS (when healthy): Steph and Klay
Philly: Simmons, Embiid
Boston: Kemba, Tatum
Toronto: Lowry, Siakim
Utah: Mitchell, Gobert
BKN (when healthy): Irving, Durant
Houston: Westbrook, Harden
Portland: Lillard, McCollum
Bucks: Giannis, Middleton
Denver: Jokic, Murray

Then you have up and coming stars like Ja and Zion who already had their franchises in the playoff hunt, Ja even had the Grizzlies in the 8 spot when the season got suspended.

I'm not gonna sit here and argue for the NBA regular season. It isn't the greatest product. But the NBA playoffs and finals is KILLING it with younger sports fans. Young kids all the way to people my age in their 20s. Then you have the older basketball fans who shake their heads and pretend the 80s and 90s had ALL THIS PARITY when in reality it pretty much had the same level of parity the game does now. In the 80s, two teams represented the west in the NBA finals. Lakers and Rockets. An entire decade. Just those two teams. In the East, three teams did. Sixers, Celtics, Pistons. 10 years, 5 teams made the finals.

90s? We all know Bulls went 6 times in the East. Knicks went twice. Jazz went twice in the west. Rockets Twice. Blazers twice.

A little more parity than the 80s as the league expanded, but not nearly as much as some pretend. The NBA has always been driven by the best teams. It isn't like the NFL where anyone can have a great season and make a super bowl run. You know who the contenders are and I'm tired of that having such a negative connotation to it. If your team sucks, start drafting better and get into the conversation. The Warriors did it.

Listen i am not trying to start a war with people who prefer the older days of the NBA, but there are a lot of myths that older fans prop up like the parity one, to try and pour cold water on people who like the NBA today, and to me thats bullshit.

And the defense thing, okay so players aren't allowed to commit assault and battery when players drive to the hoop, fine by me. The bad boy pistons weren't good for the game of basketball. I like where the game is today. i do
 
You bring up fair points Jack.

Maybe for me, it was more about most of those stars of the 80's and early - mid 90's being home grown.. Magic, Bird, Jordan, Thomas, Ewing, Olajuwon, Wilkins, Malone and/or staying in one place a long time (unless traded) etc...

The star duos are many, but they are so planned and organized it just bores me. Reading about the guys calling each other wanting to "team up". Not saying it didn't happen before, but now, it just seems like something out of high school on who is friends with each other and need to join forces. The rest of team becomes an afterthought.
 
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[quote="RedStormNC" post=386203]You bring up fair points Jack.

Maybe for me, it was more about most of those stars of the 80's and early - mid 90's being home grown.. Magic, Bird, Jordan, Thomas, Ewing, Olajuwon, Wilkins, Malone and/or staying in one place a long time (unless traded) etc...

The star duos are many, but they are so planned and organized it just bores me. Reading about the guys calling each other wanting to "team up". Not saying it didn't happen before, but now, it just seems like something out of high school on who is friends with each other and need to join forces. The rest of team becomes an afterthought.[/quote]

I agree some of the team ups can feel a little too planned, like for instance I hate KD and Kyrie for plotting their whole Brooklyn move.

However. There’s a lot of homegrown teams in the NBA. Ben Simmons, my favorite player in the league, was drafted by the Sixers as was Embiid. They are my favorite team other than the Knicks and I’ve enjoyed watching them grow.

Mavs drafted Doncic and it turned their whole franchise around. Warriors and Spurs are two of the biggest dynasties in the last two decades. Other than of course KD, both of those teams built themselves up through the draft.

Giannis and the bucks has been a great homegrown story. Celtics have built their team largely through the draft with Tatum as a centerpiece. Even the raptors who won the title, of course made a trade for Kawhi, but drafting and developing Kyle Lowry, Pascal Siakim, Fred Van Vleet was integral to their championship.

When it comes to super star movement, there’s one man that has really to me exemplified what a lot of people complain about it, and it is Kevin Durant.

To be one win away from the finals, choke, and then go to the 73-9 Warriors, win a few rings, and then bounce to start a super team with kyrie. He’s so lame. Don’t get me wrong I wouldn’t be complaining if they picked the damn knicks. But I think KD is lame. And it’s a shame because he is extremely talented.
 
[quote="Jack Williams" post=386204]When it comes to super star movement, there’s one man that has really to me exemplified what a lot of people complain about it, and it is . . .[/quote]

not the egomaniac who thought it made sense to build a TV special around his decision?
 
[quote="Jack Williams" post=386168]The nba is still great, don’t know what you guys are talking about.

Stop pretending the NBA in the 80s/90s wasn’t the same shit. Celtics, lakers, later the pistons and then bulls. For the most part the same names in the finals with some changes year to year

The NBA may not be AS great as it was but the revisionist history with it is hilarious[/quote]

I mean, you're alot younger than most of us, so of course you're going to favor the generation of the NBA you grew up on. However, I don't think that invalidates the feelings of those who grew up on 80s and 90s basketball. Yes the game has evolved, in the way many have pointed out.

Personally, I gave up on the NBA and my love of the game shifted to college ball.
 
I was 17 and 20 when the Knicks won their only two championships so naturally those (70s) were the NBA days I remember most fondly. I also loved watching pro basketball in the 80s when Magic, Larry & Dr. J were playing on some great Laker, Celtic & 76er teams.
However, I'm not one of those guys who thinks the NBA today is garbage. I still really enjoy watching the playoffs and will watch an occasional regular season game. What is undeniable is the regular season has become a watered down product compared to the NBA I grew up with. The whole idea of stars taking off multiple games during the regular season just to rest is offensive to the fan base.
 
I still watch the NBA playoffs. I don't have enough interest to watch the regular season games. 82 games requires too much of my time.

I try to follow college teams more closely. I enjoy it more. My tv viewing is limited. Right now St John's and Arkansas are the games I watch regularly. I read a lot of SEC and Big East sports news to keep up with the other teams.
 
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[quote="L J S A" post=386205][quote="Jack Williams" post=386204]When it comes to super star movement, there’s one man that has really to me exemplified what a lot of people complain about it, and it is . . .[/quote]

not the egomaniac who thought it made sense to build a TV special around his decision?[/quote]

I love LeBron so you aren’t gonna get that from me.

If you want my take on that, I ask why should LeBron have stayed in Cleveland?

What happened when Jordan couldn’t win in the playoffs his first years with the bulls? They got him Pippen and things took off.

The Cavs inability to build anything around LeBron when he was in his first stint there was ridiculous. The organization sucks. So he announced where he was going on TV. Okay. It’s still not nearly as weak a move as KD did. KDs move literally made the league not competitive. There was no way the warriors were losing unless injuries happened and they did in 2019. LeBron lost 2 of his 4 years in Miami, and one of the two he won the series went to 7. So it hardly ruined how competitive the league was
 
[quote="Room112" post=386211][quote="Jack Williams" post=386168]The nba is still great, don’t know what you guys are talking about.

Stop pretending the NBA in the 80s/90s wasn’t the same shit. Celtics, lakers, later the pistons and then bulls. For the most part the same names in the finals with some changes year to year

The NBA may not be AS great as it was but the revisionist history with it is hilarious[/quote]

I mean, you're alot younger than most of us, so of course you're going to favor the generation of the NBA you grew up on. However, I don't think that invalidates the feelings of those who grew up on 80s and 90s basketball. Yes the game has evolved, in the way many have pointed out.

Personally, I gave up on the NBA and my love of the game shifted to college ball.[/quote]

I already said I’m fine with people who prefer the game from years ago. My whole point was when people try to argue for why they love the 80s/90s more, they lie a lot for no reason.

Like someone in this thread said they can’t watch the NBA anymore because there isn’t enough parity and every year you know who the contenders are.

I pointed out that the NBA has basically always been like that. And there was even less parity in the 80s, 5 teams in the league reached the finals in an entire decade.

The bulls obviously dominated a huge chunk of the 90s. So that’s my thing, if you prefer the older NBA to the NBA now that is totally fine by me. Just don’t give me the parity argument.

I love the NBA, so I have studied past eras closely because the nba fascinates me so much. People hate how much the game revolves around its stars. But I love that about it. To me there’s nothing better then when you get the stars going at it.
 
[quote="Jack Williams" post=386239][quote="Room112" post=386211][quote="Jack Williams" post=386168]The nba is still great, don’t know what you guys are talking about.

Stop pretending the NBA in the 80s/90s wasn’t the same shit. Celtics, lakers, later the pistons and then bulls. For the most part the same names in the finals with some changes year to year

The NBA may not be AS great as it was but the revisionist history with it is hilarious[/quote]

I mean, you're alot younger than most of us, so of course you're going to favor the generation of the NBA you grew up on. However, I don't think that invalidates the feelings of those who grew up on 80s and 90s basketball. Yes the game has evolved, in the way many have pointed out.

Personally, I gave up on the NBA and my love of the game shifted to college ball.[/quote]

I already said I’m fine with people who prefer the game from years ago. My whole point was when people try to argue for why they love the 80s/90s more, they lie a lot for no reason.

Like someone in this thread said they can’t watch the NBA anymore because there isn’t enough parity and every year you know who the contenders are.

I pointed out that the NBA has basically always been like that. And there was even less parity in the 80s, 5 teams in the league reached the finals in an entire decade.

The bulls obviously dominated a huge chunk of the 90s. So that’s my thing, if you prefer the older NBA to the NBA now that is totally fine by me. Just don’t give me the parity argument.

I love the NBA, so I have studied past eras closely because the nba fascinates me so much. People hate how much the game revolves around its stars. But I love that about it. To me there’s nothing better then when you get the stars going at it.[/quote]

It's interesting because I'm around music fans a lot and it's the same thing, people always think the generation of music they grew up on is the best, and whatever is new is garbage. Basketball, much like music, has evolved a lot over the years. Just look at hip-hop, it's basically unrecognizable from the art from it began as. I'd argue the game of basketball has also evolved a lot to where much of what was important for the success of a team decades ago is no longer relevant.

It is what it is. Parity doesn't so much bother me. But when I grew up, fundamentals were stressed in basketball, so that's the type of game I prefer watching. You still see some semblance of that in college ball, so i gravitate more to it. I explained my reasoning in the previous post as to why the NBA no longer appeals to me. Doesn't mean it's necessarily worse than what it used to be, just to me it's not the same style of game.
 
Jack, it's not an attack on anyone or anything lol...it's a different opinion and it's fun to discuss. Michael Jordan was the only superstar on those Bulls teams. Pippen was a very good Robin and Rodman was a very good role player. Imagine Larry Bird (if his Celtics teams weren't winning) packing up and leaving to join Jordan and then Ewing said screw the Knicks I want a ring the easy way and went to join Jordan and Bird. That's what today's NBA has become. In the show, Jordan says he felt Pippen was being selfish and disrespectful to the team staying out of games due to his contract situation. This day in age, it's the opposite...people would be condemning Jordan and saying Pippen should make as much money as possible over everything else. Jordan played for himself but also his team, his front office, the fans, his legacy, etc. He played every game like his life depended on it. That simply does not happen now. Most of the reg season is a joke and players are coddled. It's not as authentic as it was and that makes it less appealing IMO.

Jordan was the type who saw a challenge and thought, "bring it on". It made him unstoppable because he had such a fire inside him to prove people wrong and transform a previously awful franchise. These days, players shy away from challenges and want the easiest route to a ring or deep playoff runs. Do you think Jordan would ever host "The Decision" for himself? The answer is no. Just a different mindset. Jordan was all business all the time.

This is why I like college hoops way more. It's not about making every penny you can. You can't take any games off. You have a program culture and a rabid, authentic fanbase many of whom attended or had family members attend the school. Anything can happen...Curry can end up at Davidson and nearly win the championship out of nowhere. George Mason makes the final freakin four as an irrelevant no name school. A 1 loses to a 16 seed. These things simply never happen in the NBA. The Bulls were not a super team. Jordan was the only real superstar and he even took over without Pippen at times. So that's not the equivalent of today.
 
Like I said, a lot of revisionist history and looking at the 80s/90s through rose colored glasses.

Scottie Pippen was a 7x all star, 8x all defensive player, 3x first team all nba, and 4x 2nd/3rd all nba.

Not a super star? I call bullshit

And again, Larry bird, didn’t have to go anywhere to win, neither did Jordan. Bird was surrounded with a pretty awesome cast of guys. The 86 Celtics are one of the greatest teams of all time, if not the greatest team of all time.

Commending Jordan and bird for not moving around or trying different teams but then shitting on a guy like LeBron for example for going to Miami, it’s such a false equivalency. Because neither of those guys (Bird, Jordan) had to play very long if at all without another hall of fame level player or in birds case a boat load of hall of fame level players.

LeBron played 7 years on the Cavs to start his career. Did everything he could in those years. Even brought them to the finals in 07. But he had to play a team with Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu, Bowen. In 2010, he lost to a team with Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Garnett, and Rondo.

What logical and competitive basketball player isn’t going to assess that situation and think “damn the Cavs haven’t gotten me a single high level player to play with me, they haven’t drafted well, maybe I should go to a better franchise”.

So we prop up Jordan and bird and magic because they never got put in that position because their franchises had superstars and hall of famers surrounding them pretty much at all times.

Also, I just wanna conclude with saying that Moses Malone, all time great, wanted to win a championship so he bolted to the 76ers who already had Dr J, Mo Cheeks, and Andrew Toney. And they won. Is Malone widely regarded as a “ring chaser”? Or is that title only reserved for current players
 
[quote="Jack Williams" post=386267]Like I said, a lot of revisionist history and looking at the 80s/90s through rose colored glasses.

Scottie Pippen was a 7x all star, 8x all defensive player, 3x first team all nba, and 4x 2nd/3rd all nba.

Not a super star? I call bullshit

And again, Larry bird, didn’t have to go anywhere to win, neither did Jordan. Bird was surrounded with a pretty awesome cast of guys. The 86 Celtics are one of the greatest teams of all time, if not the greatest team of all time.

Commending Jordan and bird for not moving around or trying different teams but then shitting on a guy like LeBron for example for going to Miami, it’s such a false equivalency. Because neither of those guys (Bird, Jordan) had to play very long if at all without another hall of fame level player or in birds case a boat load of hall of fame level players.

LeBron played 7 years on the Cavs to start his career. Did everything he could in those years. Even brought them to the finals in 07. But he had to play a team with Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu, Bowen. In 2010, he lost to a team with Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Garnett, and Rondo.

What logical and competitive basketball player isn’t going to assess that situation and think “damn the Cavs haven’t gotten me a single high level player to play with me, they haven’t drafted well, maybe I should go to a better franchise”.

So we prop up Jordan and bird and magic because they never got put in that position because their franchises had superstars and hall of famers surrounding them pretty much at all times.

Also, I just wanna conclude with saying that Moses Malone, all time great, wanted to win a championship so he bolted to the 76ers who already had Dr J, Mo Cheeks, and Andrew Toney. And they won. Is Malone widely regarded as a “ring chaser”? Or is that title only reserved for current players[/quote]
Moses Malone signed an offer sheet with the 76ers but he changed teams by a trade. For Caldwell Jones and a first round draft choice and he signed the biggest contract in league history so you can't say he did it to chase championships
 
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Also should be noted that 1980 and 1982 Sixers before Malone and with the core of Julius, Cheeks, Caldwell & Bobby Jones and either Toney or Doug Collins were excellent teams who both lost competitive finals to the Lakers. They were my second favorite team (after Knicks) and loved watching them beat Boston twice in super Eastern Conference finals.
 
[quote="NCJohnnie" post=386296]Also should be noted that 1980 and 1982 Sixers before Malone and with the core of Julius, Cheeks, Caldwell & Bobby Jones and either Toney or Doug Collins were excellent teams who both lost competitive finals to the Lakers. They were my second favorite team (after Knicks) and loved watching them beat Boston twice in super Eastern Conference finals.[/quote]

Me too. In the "greatest ever" discussion Dr J rarely gets any mention but he was a different phenomenon. Jordan put money in the bank and filled arenas around the country in his time, Julius had fans of opposing teams everywhere who were his fans too.
From my perspective as a young kid Dr. J. was the underdog superhero and later Jordan was the greatest supervillain of all time complete with shady and sometimes ridiculously obvious special treatment in the officiating which made the supervillain thing resonate even more passionately for opposing fans.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=386299][quote="NCJohnnie" post=386296]Also should be noted that 1980 and 1982 Sixers before Malone and with the core of Julius, Cheeks, Caldwell & Bobby Jones and either Toney or Doug Collins were excellent teams who both lost competitive finals to the Lakers. They were my second favorite team (after Knicks) and loved watching them beat Boston twice in super Eastern Conference finals.[/quote]

Me too. In the "greatest ever" discussion Dr J rarely gets any mention but he was a different phenomenon. Jordan put money in the bank and filled arenas around the country in his time, Julius had fans of opposing teams everywhere who were his fans too.
From my perspective as a young kid Dr. J. was the underdog superhero and later Jordan was the greatest supervillain of all time complete with shady and sometimes ridiculously obvious special treatment in the officiating which made the supervillain thing resonate even more passionately for opposing fans.[/quote]

If you look at the Bball Hall of Fame induction speeches of recent years, I don't think there is another player who is credited more by inductees than Dr. J.

Even players whose games were vastly different like Shaq (who btw gave one of the best HOF speeches of all time) asked Dr. J to be on stage with them.

But I do love that Jordan asked David Thompson to be on stage with him even though Dr. J would seemingly be a more popular choice.
 
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[quote="MainMan" post=386301][quote="Paul Massell" post=386299][quote="NCJohnnie" post=386296]Also should be noted that 1980 and 1982 Sixers before Malone and with the core of Julius, Cheeks, Caldwell & Bobby Jones and either Toney or Doug Collins were excellent teams who both lost competitive finals to the Lakers. They were my second favorite team (after Knicks) and loved watching them beat Boston twice in super Eastern Conference finals.[/quote]

Me too. In the "greatest ever" discussion Dr J rarely gets any mention but he was a different phenomenon. Jordan put money in the bank and filled arenas around the country in his time, Julius had fans of opposing teams everywhere who were his fans too.
From my perspective as a young kid Dr. J. was the underdog superhero and later Jordan was the greatest supervillain of all time complete with shady and sometimes ridiculously obvious special treatment in the officiating which made the supervillain thing resonate even more passionately for opposing fans.[/quote]

If you look at the Bball Hall of Fame induction speeches of recent years, I don't think there is another player who is credited more by inductees than Dr. J.

Even players whose games were vastly different like Shaq (who btw gave one of the best HOF speeches of all time) asked Dr. J to be on stage with them.

But I do love that Jordan asked David Thompson to be on stage with him even though Dr. J would seemingly be a more popular choice.[/quote]

Who would of thought that a former Tar Heel player would ask a former Wolf Pack player to join him on stage.
 
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Jack, IMO Pippen was very good but not a superstar. He could not take over a game himself. Put it this way...if Pippen went to some random team without Jordan, would he lead them to rings? Not by himself. He could not put teams on his back the way Jordan, LeBron, etc. could. Implying Pippen was like KD or LeBron just is not accurate IMO. Jordan was the star. The Knicks had Ewing, Jazz had Malone and Stockton, Bulls had Jordan, Lakers had Magic, Celtics had Bird, Suns had Barkley, and the stars never conspired to form all star teams in those days like they do today. The difference is that Jordan wanted to BEAT Magic and Stockton/Malone, and Bird, etc. He did not want to join them.This era's superstars would rather play together so they can dominate all the creampuffs and have almost an automatic road to the Finals every year. It's just boring. At least with the Warriors they drafted Curry and Thompson so that's authentic, but when KD came it was just stupid. I don't think anyone can argue that college basketball is lightyears ahead of NBA in parity. When you watch the NBA you generally know what will happen especially as a Knicks fan. The same teams go deep in the playoffs every year without much resistance because it's 3 all star teams and only a few solid but not great teams, then the rest are irrelevant. There is no defense anymore. The NBA needs a rule to limit the superteam BS.
 
[quote="Mike Zaun" post=386309]Jack, IMO Pippen was very good but not a superstar. He could not take over a game himself. Put it this way...if Pippen went to some random team without Jordan, would he lead them to rings? Not by himself. He could not put teams on his back the way Jordan, LeBron, etc. could. Implying Pippen was like KD or LeBron just is not accurate IMO. Jordan was the star. The Knicks had Ewing, Jazz had Malone and Stockton, Bulls had Jordan, Lakers had Magic, Celtics had Bird, Suns had Barkley, and the stars never conspired to form all star teams in those days like they do today. The difference is that Jordan wanted to BEAT Magic and Stockton/Malone, and Bird, etc. He did not want to join them.This era's superstars would rather play together so they can dominate all the creampuffs and have almost an automatic road to the Finals every year. It's just boring. At least with the Warriors they drafted Curry and Thompson so that's authentic, but when KD came it was just stupid. I don't think anyone can argue that college basketball is lightyears ahead of NBA in parity. When you watch the NBA you generally know what will happen especially as a Knicks fan. The same teams go deep in the playoffs every year without much resistance because it's 3 all star teams and only a few solid but not great teams, then the rest are irrelevant. There is no defense anymore. The NBA needs a rule to limit the superteam BS.[/quote]

I think Pippen did a great job in 1994. Led the Bulls to 55 wins, and if it hadn't been for Hue Hollins, the Bulls might have made it four in a row.
 
[quote="Paul Massell" post=386299][quote="NCJohnnie" post=386296]Also should be noted that 1980 and 1982 Sixers before Malone and with the core of Julius, Cheeks, Caldwell & Bobby Jones and either Toney or Doug Collins were excellent teams who both lost competitive finals to the Lakers. They were my second favorite team (after Knicks) and loved watching them beat Boston twice in super Eastern Conference finals.[/quote]

Me too. In the "greatest ever" discussion Dr J rarely gets any mention but he was a different phenomenon. Jordan put money in the bank and filled arenas around the country in his time, Julius had fans of opposing teams everywhere who were his fans too.
From my perspective as a young kid Dr. J. was the underdog superhero and later Jordan was the greatest supervillain of all time complete with shady and sometimes ridiculously obvious special treatment in the officiating which made the supervillain thing resonate even more passionately for opposing fans.[/quote]

No mention of Connie Hawkins in these discussions seems odd to me. I rank him behind only LeBron at small forward.
 
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