The Eternal "Who's the Worst SJU Coach" Debate

[L J S A]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

 

[monte]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. Mullin 
6. BM
7.  Norm 

 

[mjmaherjr]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. BM
6. Norm 

Haaaa Mullin was so bad he didn’t even make your list

 

[monte]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. BM
6. Norm 

Haaaa Mullin was so bad he didn’t even make your list

There's been so many, it's hard to remember them all at my age lol. Going to put him slightly above BM

 

[IDRAFT]

1. Every coach in SJU and College Basketball History
2. Norm.

 

[Knight]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. BM
6. Norm 

Haaaa Mullin was so bad he didn’t even make your list

There's been so many, it's hard to remember them all at my age lol. Going to put him slightly above BM

Nothing like a good BM.  /media/kunena/emoticons/smile.png

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. Mullin 
6. BM
7.  Norm 

That's a great debate topic. Everyone loves rankings. IMO, I would put Jarvis lower. The best talent he coached were Fran's recruits. He did bring in a few very good players after that but not like Fran's recruits. Like many, his coaching record went up and down with the level of talent. Using your criteria of coaching ability and recruiting only, I would agree with your list except move Jarvis to 5th. For a ranking based on overall best coach for St. John's considering all factors, Fran burned out at two places for pretty bad reasons and he has said that he really didn't want to be at St. John's anyway. Anderson is still TBD so Lavin may be the best we have had?

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

Good second half adjustments by Anderson tonight. 

 

[Delaware]

His continued reliance and faith in Wusu is baffling.

 

[MainMan]

Anderson - is he really only extended through 2027?

 

[Johnny Rapper]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. BM
6. Norm 

Haaaa Mullin was so bad he didn’t even make your list

Based on pure coaching ability, I’d have to put Jarvis first. They way his team tore through the NCAA tourney that one year was awesome. The rest of your lineup is pretty accurate. 

 

[L J S A]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. BM
6. Norm 

Haaaa Mullin was so bad he didn’t even make your list

Based on pure coaching ability, I’d have to put Jarvis first. They way his team tore through the NCAA tourney that one year was awesome. The rest of your lineup is pretty accurate. 

I'm not even sure Norm could have undercoached that group of guys though. They had special chemistry.

I think Jarvis was a good coach, but we literally watched the game pass him by while he was here. He didn't want to deal with handlers and AAU guys, and it was at a point in time where he really needed to check his ego. Usually I admire guys for not wanting to kiss ass, but in this case I'll make an exception.

 

[beast of the east]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. Mullin 
6. BM
7.  Norm 

It's funny, but this never ending topic on here always puts Norm way on the bottom.    I had this discussion over a few years about Norm while he was here with a college coach.   In the beginning he said, look, "I've known NR a very long time and coached against him.   He sucked as freshman coach at Mollow HS.  He sucked at Queens College.   He sucks now at SJU"   In Norm's last season he posed this  "Let me ask you a crazy question.   Do you think Norm is actually improving as a coach this season?"   I replied, "It's funny you say that.   His substitutions seem to make more sense.  His use of timeouts is better.  And he actually seems to change strategy as the game goes on."    The coach replied, "You know, I asked because I am thinking the same thing."

Now Norm was definitely the worst coach we've had here, and I do think he sold the school a bill of goods, but hey, he was primarily a recruiter and knew how to sell.

Fran was just a quart of milk.  His shelf life here was too brief to give him a solid evaluation.   On the same standard, if Mahoney had left right after he recruited Zendon and Felipe, we'd hold him in much higher regard.   It's kind of the JFK effect.

I agree that once we calm down about Jarvis becoming an arrogant SOB once the NBA job didn't pan out, he was a pretty good coach - although the way he destroyed Eric King was really unforgiveable to me.  It could have been tough love, but I don't think so.   He was a solid coach, and just another example of how some guys flamed out at SJU.

Lavin revived a program that was so far into the dumpster, that even the rats couldn't fund the good stuff at the bottom.   He and his staff remind me of the doctor (Harold Ramis) in the movie "As Good As It Gets", who fixed Helen Hunt's son's asthma.   Lavin's team saw the talent, made a few major adjustments, coached them up, and suddenly we were a serious tourney team.   Unfortunately that was the high point, even if the guys he brought in (not enough of them though) could play exciting bball.



 

 

[fuchsia]

Jarvis coached defense.  His offense was developed first by Ernie Lorch and then by Marcus Hatten.

 

[monte]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. Mullin 
6. BM
7.  Norm 

It's funny, but this never ending topic on here always puts Norm way on the bottom.    I had this discussion over a few years about Norm while he was here with a college coach.   In the beginning he said, look, "I've known NR a very long time and coached against him.   He sucked as freshman coach at Mollow HS.  He sucked at Queens College.   He sucks now at SJU"   In Norm's last season he posed this  "Let me ask you a crazy question.   Do you think Norm is actually improving as a coach this season?"   I replied, "It's funny you say that.   His substitutions seem to make more sense.  His use of timeouts is better.  And he actually seems to change strategy as the game goes on."    The coach replied, "You know, I asked because I am thinking the same thing."

Now Norm was definitely the worst coach we've had here, and I do think he sold the school a bill of goods, but hey, he was primarily a recruiter and knew how to sell.

Fran was just a quart of milk.  His shelf life here was too brief to give him a solid evaluation.   On the same standard, if Mahoney had left right after he recruited Zendon and Felipe, we'd hold him in much higher regard.   It's kind of the JFK effect.

I agree that once we calm down about Jarvis becoming an arrogant SOB once the NBA job didn't pan out, he was a pretty good coach - although the way he destroyed Eric King was really unforgiveable to me.  It could have been tough love, but I don't think so.   He was a solid coach, and just another example of how some guys flamed out at SJU.

Lavin revived a program that was so far into the dumpster, that even the rats couldn't fund the good stuff at the bottom.   He and his staff remind me of the doctor (Harold Ramis) in the movie "As Good As It Gets", who fixed Helen Hunt's son's asthma.   Lavin's team saw the talent, made a few major adjustments, coached them up, and suddenly we were a serious tourney team.   Unfortunately that was the high point, even if the guys he brought in (not enough of them though) could play exciting bball.

 

In Fran's case, his #1 is based more on "what could have been", then "what was". Always felt that he had the most potential to be a long time coach and winner here. As for CMA, he actually gets an incomplete. Hopefully he moves up to #1 by the time he's done. 

 

[SJU Double Alumn]

It's funny, but this never ending topic on here always puts Norm way on the bottom.    I had this discussion over a few years about Norm while he was here with a college coach.   In the beginning he said, look, "I've known NR a very long time and coached against him.   He sucked as freshman coach at Mollow HS.  He sucked at Queens College.   He sucks now at SJU"   In Norm's last season he posed this  "Let me ask you a crazy question.   Do you think Norm is actually improving as a coach this season?"   I replied, "It's funny you say that.   His substitutions seem to make more sense.  His use of timeouts is better.  And he actually seems to change strategy as the game goes on."    The coach replied, "You know, I asked because I am thinking the same thing."

Now Norm was definitely the worst coach we've had here, and I do think he sold the school a bill of goods, but hey, he was primarily a recruiter and knew how to sell.

Fran was just a quart of milk.  His shelf life here was too brief to give him a solid evaluation.   On the same standard, if Mahoney had left right after he recruited Zendon and Felipe, we'd hold him in much higher regard.   It's kind of the JFK effect.

I agree that once we calm down about Jarvis becoming an arrogant SOB once the NBA job didn't pan out, he was a pretty good coach - although the way he destroyed Eric King was really unforgiveable to me.  It could have been tough love, but I don't think so.   He was a solid coach, and just another example of how some guys flamed out at SJU.

Lavin revived a program that was so far into the dumpster, that even the rats couldn't fund the good stuff at the bottom.   He and his staff remind me of the doctor (Harold Ramis) in the movie "As Good As It Gets", who fixed Helen Hunt's son's asthma.   Lavin's team saw the talent, made a few major adjustments, coached them up, and suddenly we were a serious tourney team.   Unfortunately that was the high point, even if the guys he brought in (not enough of them though) could play exciting bball.




 

One of the simplest things Lavin did his first year was give the team's two best players more minutes. Why Norm limited the minutes of Hardy and Brownlee is hard to explain. That alone brought more success under Lavin's first year.

 

[beast of the east]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. Mullin 
6. BM
7.  Norm 

It's funny, but this never ending topic on here always puts Norm way on the bottom.    I had this discussion over a few years about Norm while he was here with a college coach.   In the beginning he said, look, "I've known NR a very long time and coached against him.   He sucked as freshman coach at Mollow HS.  He sucked at Queens College.   He sucks now at SJU"   In Norm's last season he posed this  "Let me ask you a crazy question.   Do you think Norm is actually improving as a coach this season?"   I replied, "It's funny you say that.   His substitutions seem to make more sense.  His use of timeouts is better.  And he actually seems to change strategy as the game goes on."    The coach replied, "You know, I asked because I am thinking the same thing."

Now Norm was definitely the worst coach we've had here, and I do think he sold the school a bill of goods, but hey, he was primarily a recruiter and knew how to sell.

Fran was just a quart of milk.  His shelf life here was too brief to give him a solid evaluation.   On the same standard, if Mahoney had left right after he recruited Zendon and Felipe, we'd hold him in much higher regard.   It's kind of the JFK effect.

I agree that once we calm down about Jarvis becoming an arrogant SOB once the NBA job didn't pan out, he was a pretty good coach - although the way he destroyed Eric King was really unforgiveable to me.  It could have been tough love, but I don't think so.   He was a solid coach, and just another example of how some guys flamed out at SJU.

Lavin revived a program that was so far into the dumpster, that even the rats couldn't fund the good stuff at the bottom.   He and his staff remind me of the doctor (Harold Ramis) in the movie "As Good As It Gets", who fixed Helen Hunt's son's asthma.   Lavin's team saw the talent, made a few major adjustments, coached them up, and suddenly we were a serious tourney team.   Unfortunately that was the high point, even if the guys he brought in (not enough of them though) could play exciting bball.


 

In Fran's case, his #1 is based more on "what could have been", then "what was". Always felt that he had the most potential to be a long time coach and winner here. As for CMA, he actually gets an incomplete. Hopefully he moves up to #1 by the time he's done. 

I think that Fran had some serious issues with his temperament and behavior that undid him from almost day 1. 

Forget about dropping his pants in a fit of rage, which today would be immediate dismissal.

He announced his staff to the press without first having a sit down with Ed Manetta, AD, would even as a courtesy would have been required.   As it was Manetta wanted input and had ideas of who to add.   Manetta was appropriately very upset at this and Fran even though he should have known better, even if he didn't showed no regard for authority of the AD in doing so.

He wasn't exactly great at dealing with parents.   When the mother of one of his players confronted him about lack of playing time, there are a few ways to handle that.   The most gracious is for her son to be patient, keep working hard, and if he makes the most of opportunities he will get more time.   The second is to nicely tell her for her son to come see him, because as a coach of young men, he thinks its better to discuss a kid's concern with the kid and not his mom.   Instead Fran told her something akin to, "Pay attention to who is playing over him.  That kid deserves to play, not your son."

What some people may find acceptable but I don't is that under contract, he went and listened to offers from other schools, maybe even solicited them, in an attempt to get SJU to rewrite his contract and get a large raise.   There are of course much better ways to do this, and in the end it undid him.

IMO, had these things not happened, other stuff would have, because Fran is that kind of guy. 

 

[monte]

Late to the party here, but if I were trying to build a starting lineup, I really think I'm taking three Norm recruits and two CMA guys. But I sure as hell am not letting Norm coach them. I actually think I'd take Lavin and Dunlap coaching them if I have only one year to make magic happen. But CMA all the way over Norm. And Norm did have twice as many years. Ask me in three years if I still have a theoretical starting lineup with 60 percent Norm guys. Hopefully not.

I was having a conversation last night with a fellow SJU fan and, amongst other things, we were discussing all the coaches since Lou. If I had to rank them in order of purely coaching ability, including recruiting, etc, my order would be:
1. Fran
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin
4. CMA
5. Mullin 
6. BM
7.  Norm 

It's funny, but this never ending topic on here always puts Norm way on the bottom.    I had this discussion over a few years about Norm while he was here with a college coach.   In the beginning he said, look, "I've known NR a very long time and coached against him.   He sucked as freshman coach at Mollow HS.  He sucked at Queens College.   He sucks now at SJU"   In Norm's last season he posed this  "Let me ask you a crazy question.   Do you think Norm is actually improving as a coach this season?"   I replied, "It's funny you say that.   His substitutions seem to make more sense.  His use of timeouts is better.  And he actually seems to change strategy as the game goes on."    The coach replied, "You know, I asked because I am thinking the same thing."

Now Norm was definitely the worst coach we've had here, and I do think he sold the school a bill of goods, but hey, he was primarily a recruiter and knew how to sell.

Fran was just a quart of milk.  His shelf life here was too brief to give him a solid evaluation.   On the same standard, if Mahoney had left right after he recruited Zendon and Felipe, we'd hold him in much higher regard.   It's kind of the JFK effect.

I agree that once we calm down about Jarvis becoming an arrogant SOB once the NBA job didn't pan out, he was a pretty good coach - although the way he destroyed Eric King was really unforgiveable to me.  It could have been tough love, but I don't think so.   He was a solid coach, and just another example of how some guys flamed out at SJU.

Lavin revived a program that was so far into the dumpster, that even the rats couldn't fund the good stuff at the bottom.   He and his staff remind me of the doctor (Harold Ramis) in the movie "As Good As It Gets", who fixed Helen Hunt's son's asthma.   Lavin's team saw the talent, made a few major adjustments, coached them up, and suddenly we were a serious tourney team.   Unfortunately that was the high point, even if the guys he brought in (not enough of them though) could play exciting bball.



 

In Fran's case, his #1 is based more on "what could have been", then "what was". Always felt that he had the most potential to be a long time coach and winner here. As for CMA, he actually gets an incomplete. Hopefully he moves up to #1 by the time he's done. 

I think that Fran had some serious issues with his temperament and behavior that undid him from almost day 1. 

Forget about dropping his pants in a fit of rage, which today would be immediate dismissal.

He announced his staff to the press without first having a sit down with Ed Manetta, AD, would even as a courtesy would have been required.   As it was Manetta wanted input and had ideas of who to add.   Manetta was appropriately very upset at this and Fran even though he should have known better, even if he didn't showed no regard for authority of the AD in doing so.

He wasn't exactly great at dealing with parents.   When the mother of one of his players confronted him about lack of playing time, there are a few ways to handle that.   The most gracious is for her son to be patient, keep working hard, and if he makes the most of opportunities he will get more time.   The second is to nicely tell her for her son to come see him, because as a coach of young men, he thinks its better to discuss a kid's concern with the kid and not his mom.   Instead Fran told her something akin to, "Pay attention to who is playing over him.  That kid deserves to play, not your son."

What some people may find acceptable but I don't is that under contract, he went and listened to offers from other schools, maybe even solicited them, in an attempt to get SJU to rewrite his contract and get a large raise.   There are of course much better ways to do this, and in the end it undid him.

IMO, had these things not happened, other stuff would have, because Fran is that kind of guy. 

Agree on his temperament. Bit of a Napoleon complex. Like Lav, he seems to have found his niche in the booth. They are both knowledgeable  and entertaining commentators. Good for them. 

 

[MainMan]

We should ask Ty Grant for his opinion since he is the only STJ player to ever play for 3 coaches: Mahoney, Fran, Jarvis 

And I'll die on this hill, but Brian Mahoney was the best recruiter out of all of them. At least on paper.

First class: 
Roshown McLeod: Top 50. 
James Scott: 2 time JUCO AA 

Second class: 
Felipe Lopez: No. 1 recuit in nation 
Zendon Hamilton: Top 10 
Tarik Turner: Top 50 

Third class: 
Ty Grant: All-city 
Mike Menniefield: JUCO AA 
Ed Brown: ok, got me here. 

Fourth class: 
Lavor Postell: Top 50 

But never recruited an elite PG (despite TT's ranking) and that's what cost him.
 

 

[kranmars]

Agree on his temperament. Bit of a Napoleon complex. Like Lav, he seems to have found his niche in the booth. They are both knowledgeable  and entertaining commentators. Good for them. 

If we are going to play the “what could have been” game, having DJ Kennedy for the tournament, would have changed everything for Lavin and the program.

That was a veteran team that was getting itself back together after a little slump late in the season. I believe they would have made a major run because their defense would have been hard to prepare for in such a compacted time.