Like it or not what we have is another version of “professional” sports. Everyone has the option to love it or walk away. I am somewhere in the middle.I like watching young talented players. However, without some sort of structured chaos (collective bargaining?) this will devolve into a non competitive mess which will destroy college sports excepting a limited number of conferences or schools. So at some point doesn’t this become the NBA without the most talented players in the world? Or is this the new NBA D league or the equivalent of the USFL for football. The whole thing is a lot more complicated than saying just pay the kids.
The End Of The "Student Athlete"
- Thread starter redmanwest
- Start date
Except for March Madness, the idea that 360+ D1 schools should all be considered fairly competitive is silly.
Just like D1, D2, D3...there really are levels even within D1...reality is D1 should likely be about 50-75 programs.
Just like D1, D2, D3...there really are levels even within D1...reality is D1 should likely be about 50-75 programs.
The student athlete athlete ended 40 years ago when a young cocky Marillac tried to sprint from jpods to Marillac cafeteria and tried to jump over that car gate pole like he was in the Olympics and belly flopped across the parking lot.
His final words were “ Marillac is grateful there are no cell phones or YouTube “
His final words were “ Marillac is grateful there are no cell phones or YouTube “
Really don't understand this logic...
That's like saying the Yankees bring the overwhelming value to the equation so Aaron Judge or Juan Soto should be happy with a per diem and free tickets to games!
It is a mutual benefit equation but only one party is recognizing true benefit and it isn't the kids.
Rocket
Well-known member
Your retort is full of contradictions regarding the above two paragraphs.
"so the "poor" kids are greedy for wanting to share in the billions of revenue that the greedy athletic departments have been pocketing for decades? "
Most schools loose money sponsoring athletic teams. You're conflating television and media payments to leagues over the course of a decade long contract with what each individual school actually receives from media payments. Without media deals, very few universities could support sports. Sure, there are multi-billion dollar endowed universities like the Ivies (private and public) but schools like Princeton, Harvard and Penn have measly media contracts.
The problem with the current NIL is that the NCAA and the courts have created a non-competitive environment for 80 % of the member schools. I am addressing this from a basketball lense because football is an entire different animal. Those schools with traditionally rich and successful football programs have, and still carry, the bulk of college sports income.
Because of the inequities created by NIL, schools with Uber wealthy alums will consistently be able to offer well above market rates for certain elite players. But most players are not elite. Most players are not NBA material. Most players have little to no NIL value. There is no real "market value" because the market is skewed and controlled by a couple of dozen schools.
So, the BILLIONS you mention is a fantasy.
As for your gratuitous comment regarding "hard working families", be reminded that most schools like St. John's survive financially on tuition income. No division one school directly funds anything on the academic side. You may be thinking of the marketing value added to schools visibility but unless you are a perennial nationally ranked team, most high school students still want to attend the best schools because of academics and not sports prowess.
Rocket
Well-known member
Again, you are comparing apples and oranges.
The Yankees, Lakers, Rangers, Red Bulls.......are professional sports organizations whose only purpose is to make a profit for the entertainment they provide.
There isn't one university in the world that mentions "sports supremacy" in their mission statement. College sports is an extra-curricular activity that, because of media mega-contracts for 5 or 6 of the 32 college conferences, is able to be self-sustaining at many bigger programs. Traditionally, the money making sports provided financing for all other sports.
Most "kids" at most colleges play in half empty arenas or in small regional media markets. Most of these kids have no NIL value. Most of these kids are getting a free fully paid education for being on a sports team.
Most of the other "kids" are taking loans or working side jobs to barely support themselves as Students.
Not sure where you find contradictions in what I wrote. Think I'm pretty clear...
The NCAA and its member schools, carefully crafted and purposely operated a system that leveraged talented young men to drive BILLIONS in revenue. They then used that revenue in all different manners, such as subsidizing other sports, paying coaches millions of dollars, and building outlandish facilities that rival professional teams, what they didn't do with those dollars was share any of it with the individuals that created the product which then fueled the revenue...
In regards to conflating television and media deals... of course without media deals very few universities could support sports, but that's like saying without oxygen most would have a hard time breathing. Media deals are the lifeline of any sports league.
I do agree with you on the inequities, but those were NOT created by NIL, those inequities existed eons prior to any NIL system. But what you are describing in this portion is exactly how the free market works. Big schools pay bill dollars for big names, small schools pay smaller dollars for smaller names.
Have no idea what you are saying about gratuitous comment about hard working families, suggest you read post again.
Mullins Revenge
Well-known member
I think my perspective is better than your “get off my lawn” perspective. It is going to happen so just get on board now.
I can wait for the 96 team March Madness thats coming soon. How about you?
No, I'm comparing Apples to Apples.
This is the problem... with all due respect, you are being naive. Look at the budgets of Texas, Alabama, Oregon, Michigan, etc and tell me those aren't professional sports organizations? Just because its not in their mission statement doesn't mean its not in their DNA.
College Sports is a multi Billion dollar business, it has been for many decades and it has accelerated at a high rate over the last 10-20 years, so much so that the NCAA is now an irrelevant governing body.
Rocket
Well-known member
Using your logic, if the players at a couple of dozen schools created the billions in revenue, then what did the other 80 percent of college players contribute to their schools?
At one time the rules of sports participation were equal for every single school.
Income derived from sports was meant to support ALL sports and scholarship players.
Outside of the richest college football programs, what billions of dollars were earned by any schools?
The standard reward and benefits for talented athletes was a free education, free training and coaching and, most importantly, exposure in large arenas and television to raise their sports value for an opportunity to play professionally.
That's it!
The legal issue of NAME, IMAGE and LIKENESS was a bogus argument imo.
It could have been easily addressed by providing a percentage of any sales related to specific NIL products being actually marketed to specific players by real NIL reimbursements.
Every single NIL agreement today is legalized fraud.
Players are not performing marketing activities as "individuals" for any real consumer services or products.
What should be the NIL value for actual students with high academic achievement who are used in advertisements and marketing by universities in their recruitment materials?
It is those students and their grades and achievements that raise a university's academic ranking. It is those students who, once successful in their chosen careers, support the endowments for educational purposes.
JohnnyPirate
Active member
The market did not nothing, it was the courts that forced the change. Now the state schools with unlimited "tax payer" resources, or the "market" as you would call it, will get richer, while the rest will get poorer.
I was in diapers 40 years ago
But I am very grateful cell phone cameras were rare when I was in high school and college.
I have no problem with the payment to athletes. I look at such payments as similar to work/study programs when I was in university. I could work for up to 20 hours/week and make minimum wage. Athletes practice similar amounts, if not more, and should also get paid. In addition, they bring in revenue for the school. I also brought in revenue in the amount of late book fees--not the equivalent of ticket prices. When summer came around, athletes would have off season work outs without pay while I would have a summer job/internship for pay.
While everyone was in school with the hopes of gaining employment, athletes had a lot less opportunity to achieving their goals of a professional career in their sport than students in the various disciplines in business, science, education, etc.
While everyone was in school with the hopes of gaining employment, athletes had a lot less opportunity to achieving their goals of a professional career in their sport than students in the various disciplines in business, science, education, etc.
Rocket
Well-known member
I understand where you are coming from but there is a huge difference between a college basketball program being run "professionally" because of millions of dollars in tax payers resources and professional teams like the Knickerbockers who are owned by billionaires.
There were always those inequities as you alluded to but now we have legally segregated the halves and the have nots.
The irony is that with all the resources available to schools like Kansas, Memphis, Duke, Michigan, Alabama, etc., because there are over 300 other basketball teams in the NCAA and the single round elimination in the tournament, a $5 million dollar roster is no guarantee of advancing and, as rare as it may be, a Saint Mary's can still be a success story.
I lived my first eighty years in Queens and Garden City, then moved to a suburb of Columbus, Ohio living next door to my son four years ago. I am posting this because I am fearful that unless the big east can come up with some plan in agreement with the big ten and SEC the league is heading for second class status.
Now that college basketball is a pro league how can SJU and all other non big ten and Sec teams compete five years from now.When I moved four years ago the Columbus newspaper had a story that Ohio St raised 135 million dollars to build a pool that they didn’t even need. They had an Olympic pool but wanted a facility for the women.
SJU is hoping to get ten million dollars from their tv contract and NCAA tournament. Ohio St will take in 150 million from big ten football and football ticket sales next year with total sports revenue passing 300 million. For every SJU hat I saw in Nassau county I see a thousand OSU hats.
SJU will not be able to compete unless the two major leagues which will have some forty members make some provisions to allow them to survive. Money talks.
Now that college basketball is a pro league how can SJU and all other non big ten and Sec teams compete five years from now.When I moved four years ago the Columbus newspaper had a story that Ohio St raised 135 million dollars to build a pool that they didn’t even need. They had an Olympic pool but wanted a facility for the women.
SJU is hoping to get ten million dollars from their tv contract and NCAA tournament. Ohio St will take in 150 million from big ten football and football ticket sales next year with total sports revenue passing 300 million. For every SJU hat I saw in Nassau county I see a thousand OSU hats.
SJU will not be able to compete unless the two major leagues which will have some forty members make some provisions to allow them to survive. Money talks.
Mullins Revenge
Well-known member
The best team and the best coaches are in the big east. And there has to be appeal that its a basketball only conference.
I have faith that the big east will be more than ok in this new era of college hoops.
Money talks, but college football is the money maker. We are not in competition with Ohio State's football program.
Let them rake that money in, but a lot of that money is probably being put right back into the football program. I haven't been impressed by the investment in basketball by a lot of these huge programs. If Ohio St cares about their basketball program so much, why after 7 years of Chris Holtmann fizzled out with a wet fart, you're fine with just carrying on with some head recruiter-turned coach because the team finished the season hot?
There is more than enough room in the college basketball space for us to be relevant, especially because basketball is our main thing, not football like these other schools. We don't need to be a cash cow at the level of Ohio St or Alabama football to find success in the basketball scene.
As for the conference itself surviving, I am a firm believer in the fact that the Big East is the ONLY major conference in college basketball that cares about basketball more than football, to me this HAS to mean we are included in any direction the sport goes. They are losing a huge chunk of their identity if they try to leave us out of anything.
The issue is media exposure.
For the past 9 years the Big East enjoyed prime time on Fox.
Without the prime Fox media exposure, the BE would have been far less relevant to coaches and recruits.
The pending Big East negotiations are critical. Hopefully the BE retains prime time exposure with Fox or whatever major media TV provider and is not relegated to mostly streaming.
For the past 9 years the Big East enjoyed prime time on Fox.
Without the prime Fox media exposure, the BE would have been far less relevant to coaches and recruits.
The pending Big East negotiations are critical. Hopefully the BE retains prime time exposure with Fox or whatever major media TV provider and is not relegated to mostly streaming.
we are the only conference that has a conference tournament with an actual aura/allure to it. We will be taken care of in these media negotiations IMO.
The only thing that brings me pause in these times is I am not sure if we have the right leader to seal the deal for this conference in these type of media talks. I don't hate Val, just wish we had a stronger personality in these discussions. I'm still salty about the lame unsigned statement the conference released after we got shafted at the selection show
This is also why I changed my tune on Hurley midway through the NCAA tournament. He was beating everyones ass and then telling anyone who listened that it was because the Big East prepared his team. Something like that is so valuable with all these media rights discussions happening.
As Jack Williams posted Ohio st doesn’t care ten percent about its basketball program as it does about its football program but the big east has to realize if it ever does the big east is dead and must now get some assurance legally that the big two conferences will not wipe them out.
There will be a few ACC schools admitted to either the big ten or SEC in the next few years which will allow Conn their dream to get into the ACC. If Vill decides to build up its football program they could also leave the big east. The big east better not wait to protect themselves or the sixty big ten , SEC and ACC will be the only leagues on tv and while football is leading the way basketball only schools will not be able to compete in any sport vs the football powers.
An indicator of where things are going was this past winter the big ten selected a tv sports expect as their commissioner rather than a sportsman, The big east better wake up because right now the big ten and SEC are all into football and consider basketball a second citizen but that could change.
There will be a few ACC schools admitted to either the big ten or SEC in the next few years which will allow Conn their dream to get into the ACC. If Vill decides to build up its football program they could also leave the big east. The big east better not wait to protect themselves or the sixty big ten , SEC and ACC will be the only leagues on tv and while football is leading the way basketball only schools will not be able to compete in any sport vs the football powers.
An indicator of where things are going was this past winter the big ten selected a tv sports expect as their commissioner rather than a sportsman, The big east better wake up because right now the big ten and SEC are all into football and consider basketball a second citizen but that could change.