Step back from the ledge

[L J S A]

Per Zach B

Anton Goff on potential staff changes at St. John's: "Me and Chris will sit down and discuss the entire program after the season, and we'll go from there." #sjubb

I like everyone, but if you are going to jump-start the program, I think there are two guys who can be replaced. But how would Mullin respond to being asked to make changes? We are in a tough spot unless some guys decide they want to move on.

 

[JackofVirginia]

Excellent post by SJU1512. Mullin is absolutely entrenched for next year but a disappointing year next year will be another story. The history of SJU basketball is filled with head coaches utilizing their assistants for help. McGuire/Freeman, Lapchick/ Looie, Looie/ LoBalbo and so on.
Without any prior coaching experience it was a sure thing that Chris was going to need help in many areas and he better not let friendship influence his thinking going forward.

Our high school gym was being renovated and Louie was kind enough to allow my team to practice at the Flushing Armory. Of course it was after the Redmen practice. Surprisingly Lapchick never got off his chair while Louie ran things. Don't get me wrong not comparing Chris with the great Lapchick. Now if only we could find an assistant similar to Louie.

 

[redfan259999888]

Still weirdly optimistic about this staff’s ability to have success, but it has to be next year. They are effectively playing with 6 guys and are in games that are surprising for them to be in and that deeper SJU teams have rarely been in of late. And despite coming up short Nova and @X they came back and played hard again on Saturday. Not sure if that’s talent or coaching or a combination but it’s impressive.

That optimism nothwithstanding there are at least 3 things that will hopefully be addressed:

1. No matter how hard the staff is working they are heading for a record in Year 3 that in the real world would likely mandate some sort of shake up on the staff. So either SJU is living in the real world or they are living in a world where a program legend as a player gets more leniency as a coach than a non-legend would. I like Goff quite a bit just from what I’ve seen from afar and others have said, and someone in athletic administration not affiliated with SJU has mentioned to me that Goff is thought of highly in the industry. But IMO this April/May will be a critical juncture for Goff with respect to this program. Don’t think anyone needs to be fired if it can be avoided, but there needs to be change and reassignment, and that should happen closer to the top than the bottom. We need a legitimate first assistant, not a third. Impact hire, not rearranging deck chairs.

2. To that end one of the main things I was hoping Mullin would bring was stability and limiting the bizarre drama that seems to so often surround SJU hoops. In certain ways I think he is moving towards stability generally (seems to be great kids on team, more balance in recruiting, etc.), but hasn’t had as much success limiting the latter. Getting a coach to come to SJU from Kentucky, only to have him leave after one year; losing a transfer before classes even start in freshman year; a potential all-conference caliber player being (apparently) medically cleared to play but the injury leading to him not just not playing but leaving the program. Without revisiting each situation specifically or assigning blame, collectively that’s just bizarre stuff. Even in today’s game of rampant transfers and roster turnover, we’re kidding ourselves if we think most other programs deal with this level of strange. Maybe a collection of others, but would think we are comfortably in the top 10% and probably higher in D1.

3. Likely the other main thing I hoped Mullin’s staff would change is the utter insanity around lack of strategic adjustments, both in-game but perhaps more importantly from game to game. This staff definitely seems to put individual players in a position to succeed more than prior regimes, but the ability to effectuate change related to glaring weaknesses over the course of the season just has not been there. SJU is 314/351 D1 teams in 3pt FG% defense. They have allowed opponents to collectively shoot 38.4% from 3, which is a good number for an individual player to shoot for a season, let alone a team, and let alone 19 different teams, especially when only 2 of those 19 teams are shooting better than 38.4% against the rest of their opponents. And yet there has been little if any change in fundamental approach. Team still plays extreme help defense leaving shooters wide open, which doesn't make a lot of sense given SJU's quick hands and shot blockers when offensive players are in traffic, and which is likely why teams shoot better against SJU than they do on average.

It’s frustrating to watch two far better teams like X and SHU play and mix defenses tactically based upon game situation and personnel. And they could probably get away with playing 100% man if they wanted to. By comparison what do we have to lose? Sat with a former D1 assistant coach at the Nova game, and he was fairly surprised by SJU lack of showing different looks defensively and expressed concern that when the NBA game is really what you know there can be certain approaches that just don’t translate to the college game. At this point, I really can’t think of any explanation for the defensive approach and the unwillingness to even try something else. Players deserve more here.

I don’t subscribe to the notion that if Mullin can’t win here then maybe nobody can. Mullin didn’t have coaching experience and was a higher risk/higher reward type hire, and that is sort of playing out. Of the 9 other teams in our 10 team conference, at least 7 are somewhere between hoping their current coach never leaves to very happy with the current returns from their coach. Those include different types of schools, in different areas of the country, with all different types and quality of facilities. SJU isn’t different from them, it’s largely about the hire. My understanding is if it wasn’t Mullin it may have been Danny Hurley, and while I doubt Danny would be interested now I’m sure the next coach that is where Danny was 3 years ago would be.

Which is why it’s critical in my view that some or all of the above get addressed and we win big next year. Massively underperforming expectations this year does not reset the shotclock on next year’s expectations. Needs to be 20+ wins and NCAA with quality outlook for 19-20, and regarding the latter even if (and hoping) Ponds/Clark/Owens are back next year, all will either have graduated or likely have moved on for 19-20, so quite a bit of reloading to do in short timeframe on top of just next year's performance. Rooting for them.

I'm not as optimistic as stated at the beginning of your post (I'm typically an optimistic dude), but I'm lockstep with the rest of your post. Those are things I've mentioned at some point during Mullin's tenure.

Next year isn't a reset, as a handful believe the NIT would be fine next season. Hogwash! NCAA or bust, next season! Otherwise, hit the road Jack!

Solid post.

This year I was hoping atleast NIT, next year gotta be NCAA.
What, gotta wait till Mullin's 5th year for his first NCAA appearance? BS!!!!!!!!!
You're right NCAA or bust.

 

[Class of 72]

Per Zach B

Anton Goff on potential staff changes at St. John's: "Me and Chris will sit down and discuss the entire program after the season, and we'll go from there." #sjubb

I like everyone, but if you are going to jump-start the program, I think there are two guys who can be replaced. But how would Mullin respond to being asked to make changes? We are in a tough spot unless some guys decide they want to move on.

Anton observes games from the table next to the staff bench. He must see that most of the bench coaching is still in the hands of JSJ. That obviously is not helping Mullin in game situations. Mitch Richmond is a cheerleader. Matt is just a used car salesman with a seat on the bench. The problem is we have 4 star players playing on a 2 star level at times. At other times they are all clicking. That inconsistency gets addressed in practices. From observing players like Ahmed, Amar, Shamorie, and big men Clark and Owens consistently miscommunicating in the offense and never position themselves for rebounds is astonishing. If Mullin feels he doesn't need help then the problem is Mullin and if he doesn't like the terms of his employment I'm sure the first thing he will do for dear alma mater is call he attorney. So, yeah, we are in a tough spot but he should realize that he is in a tougher spot.
And if he should fail the first priority is to distance the program from the old guard that supported the Mullin hire. Unfortunately, that starts with venerable coach Carnesecca and the few others that have plagued the program with their undue influence.

 

[paultzman]

Will be very surprised if Mullin does not hire a guy with college coaching experience.

 

[Windy City Johnny Fan]

How about we think outside the box for a change and look at a guy like Jared Grasso at Iona? Experienced, solid X's and O's guy, dynamite recruiter (at mid major level, I admit, but I assume that can carry over), charismatic, young and hungry. Stuck behind Cluess for Iona HC gig. Bring him in as associate HC with understanding he'll take the reigns in 2-3 years. Everyone wins.

 

[Wolfie]

How about we think outside the box for a change and look at a guy like Jared Grasso at Iona? Experienced, solid X's and O's guy, dynamite recruiter (at mid major level, I admit, but I assume that can carry over), charismatic, young and hungry. Stuck behind Cluess for Iona HC gig. Bring him in as associate HC with understanding he'll take the reigns in 2-3 years. Everyone wins.

Great idea.

 

[Wolfie]

Still weirdly optimistic about this staff’s ability to have success, but it has to be next year. They are effectively playing with 6 guys and are in games that are surprising for them to be in and that deeper SJU teams have rarely been in of late. And despite coming up short Nova and @X they came back and played hard again on Saturday. Not sure if that’s talent or coaching or a combination but it’s impressive.

That optimism nothwithstanding there are at least 3 things that will hopefully be addressed:

1. No matter how hard the staff is working they are heading for a record in Year 3 that in the real world would likely mandate some sort of shake up on the staff. So either SJU is living in the real world or they are living in a world where a program legend as a player gets more leniency as a coach than a non-legend would. I like Goff quite a bit just from what I’ve seen from afar and others have said, and someone in athletic administration not affiliated with SJU has mentioned to me that Goff is thought of highly in the industry. But IMO this April/May will be a critical juncture for Goff with respect to this program. Don’t think anyone needs to be fired if it can be avoided, but there needs to be change and reassignment, and that should happen closer to the top than the bottom. We need a legitimate first assistant, not a third. Impact hire, not rearranging deck chairs.

2. To that end one of the main things I was hoping Mullin would bring was stability and limiting the bizarre drama that seems to so often surround SJU hoops. In certain ways I think he is moving towards stability generally (seems to be great kids on team, more balance in recruiting, etc.), but hasn’t had as much success limiting the latter. Getting a coach to come to SJU from Kentucky, only to have him leave after one year; losing a transfer before classes even start in freshman year; a potential all-conference caliber player being (apparently) medically cleared to play but the injury leading to him not just not playing but leaving the program. Without revisiting each situation specifically or assigning blame, collectively that’s just bizarre stuff. Even in today’s game of rampant transfers and roster turnover, we’re kidding ourselves if we think most other programs deal with this level of strange. Maybe a collection of others, but would think we are comfortably in the top 10% and probably higher in D1.

3. Likely the other main thing I hoped Mullin’s staff would change is the utter insanity around lack of strategic adjustments, both in-game but perhaps more importantly from game to game. This staff definitely seems to put individual players in a position to succeed more than prior regimes, but the ability to effectuate change related to glaring weaknesses over the course of the season just has not been there. SJU is 314/351 D1 teams in 3pt FG% defense. They have allowed opponents to collectively shoot 38.4% from 3, which is a good number for an individual player to shoot for a season, let alone a team, and let alone 19 different teams, especially when only 2 of those 19 teams are shooting better than 38.4% against the rest of their opponents. And yet there has been little if any change in fundamental approach. Team still plays extreme help defense leaving shooters wide open, which doesn't make a lot of sense given SJU's quick hands and shot blockers when offensive players are in traffic, and which is likely why teams shoot better against SJU than they do on average.

It’s frustrating to watch two far better teams like X and SHU play and mix defenses tactically based upon game situation and personnel. And they could probably get away with playing 100% man if they wanted to. By comparison what do we have to lose? Sat with a former D1 assistant coach at the Nova game, and he was fairly surprised by SJU lack of showing different looks defensively and expressed concern that when the NBA game is really what you know there can be certain approaches that just don’t translate to the college game. At this point, I really can’t think of any explanation for the defensive approach and the unwillingness to even try something else. Players deserve more here.

I don’t subscribe to the notion that if Mullin can’t win here then maybe nobody can. Mullin didn’t have coaching experience and was a higher risk/higher reward type hire, and that is sort of playing out. Of the 9 other teams in our 10 team conference, at least 7 are somewhere between hoping their current coach never leaves to very happy with the current returns from their coach. Those include different types of schools, in different areas of the country, with all different types and quality of facilities. SJU isn’t different from them, it’s largely about the hire. My understanding is if it wasn’t Mullin it may have been Danny Hurley, and while I doubt Danny would be interested now I’m sure the next coach that is where Danny was 3 years ago would be.

Which is why it’s critical in my view that some or all of the above get addressed and we win big next year. Massively underperforming expectations this year does not reset the shotclock on next year’s expectations. Needs to be 20+ wins and NCAA with quality outlook for 19-20, and regarding the latter even if (and hoping) Ponds/Clark/Owens are back next year, all will either have graduated or likely have moved on for 19-20, so quite a bit of reloading to do in short timeframe on top of just next year's performance. Rooting for them.

Well-said. Great post.

I'm not as optimistic as stated at the beginning of your post (I'm typically an optimistic dude), but I'm lockstep with the rest of your post. Those are things I've mentioned at some point during Mullin's tenure.

Next year isn't a reset, as a handful believe the NIT would be fine next season. Hogwash! NCAA or bust, next season! Otherwise, hit the road Jack!

Solid post.

This year I was hoping atleast NIT, next year gotta be NCAA.
What, gotta wait till Mullin's 5th year for his first NCAA appearance? BS!!!!!!!!!
You're right NCAA or bust.

 

[Roamer]

Among other things Mullin needs to do is reorganize his staff. This will involve some fires and new hires. Great players never became great coaches but did become great project managers. Mullin regime is making Lavin, Roberts, Jarvis and Fraschilla all look like geniuses. These guys are getting paid real money to show results. So far it is an F. I want my money back.

 

[beast of the east]

Among other things Mullin needs to do is reorganize his staff. This will involve some fires and new hires. Great players never became great coaches but did become great project managers. Mullin regime is making Lavin, Roberts, Jarvis and Fraschilla all look like geniuses. These guys are getting paid real money to show results. So far it is an F. I want my money back.

Sorry, but your post is about as ill informed as it could possibly be. John Wooden was player of the year at purdue and the first person to be inducted into the hall of fame as a player AND coach. Lenny Wilkens was a great player and coach. LArry Brown was a great player and coach. Larry Bird won a lot of games as Pacers coach. Bill Russell won championships as a player and player coach. Never say never. IT just proves you are typing and not thinking.

 

[room112]

A reminder for all of you sympathizing with a very well compensated coaching staff:

Remember that Mike Dunlap won 6 conference games with 6 scholarship players, all freshmen (and Malik Stith) in what was a tougher conference at the time.

I agree that minus Lovett that our expectations needed to be lowered. If we were 3-5 or even 2-6 right now it would be understandable, but 0-8 is beyond unacceptable. I agree it's generally not a good idea to boo the players but the coaches are absolutely fair game. They are the ones being paid good money to do this. I do think Mullin deserves (and will realistically get) more time but we as a fan base need to let our voices be heard regarding accountability. I would encourage everyone to e-mail President Gempesaw, Joe Oliva and Anton Goff. I have season tickets, but I have told them that I will not be buying any concessions, merch, or season tickets for next year until and unless there is a veteran assistant coach brought in here. Make your voices heard and make a statement with your wallet.

Dunlap's conference was tougher at the top, but there was a lot of dead weight at the bottom of that league. They put 9 of 16 teams in the ncaa's, which is 56%, and you only played a few teams twice (which they usually based on preseason expectations).

Big East is getting 6 minimum this year, which is a better percentage, and you have to play everyone twice. Not that that's an excuse for what's going on, but I'm not sure that the schedule is easier in this conference.

Interesting comparison. We basically had God's Gift, Harkless, D'Angelo, Pointer, Greene, Amir Garrett, Malik Stith and Nurideen Lindsey for a few games.

You might be applauding the 6 Big East wins (2 against Depaul, Cincinnati, West Virginia, Providence, Notre Dame).

However, we also had some very questionable losses that season. We lost to Northwestern and Detroit. along with some bad losses to Rutgers (14-18 that year), Pittsburgh (13-17 that year), Villanova (13-19 that year), and Seton Hall (10-16 that year). We also beat Texas Pan American by only 5 points at home.

So that season was a bit different than this one.

 

[Class of 72]

Among other things Mullin needs to do is reorganize his staff. This will involve some fires and new hires. Great players never became great coaches but did become great project managers. Mullin regime is making Lavin, Roberts, Jarvis and Fraschilla all look like geniuses. These guys are getting paid real money to show results. So far it is an F. I want my money back.

Sorry, but your post is about as ill informed as it could possibly be. John Wooden was player of the year at purdue and the first person to be inducted into the hall of fame as a player AND coach. Lenny Wilkens was a great player and coach. LArry Brown was a great player and coach. Larry Bird won a lot of games as Pacers coach. Bill Russell won championships as a player and player coach. Never say never. IT just proves you are typing and not thinking.

I think Roamer was referring to "college" coaching. Coaching in the pros is more about managing the egos of highly skilled players. Also, the coach doesn't recruit his NBA team, team management does. That said, almost all college coaches were college players òf average talent. Very few "great" college players have become great college coaches in the past half century.

BTW, The Milwaukee Bucks fired head coach Jason Kidd. He was a great player.

 

[Class of 72]

Excellent post by SJU1512. Mullin is absolutely entrenched for next year but a disappointing year next year will be another story. The history of SJU basketball is filled with head coaches utilizing their assistants for help. McGuire/Freeman, Lapchick/ Looie, Looie/ LoBalbo and so on.
Without any prior coaching experience it was a sure thing that Chris was going to need help in many areas and he better not let friendship influence his thinking going forward.

Our high school gym was being renovated and Louie was kind enough to allow my team to practice at the Flushing Armory. Of course it was after the Redmen practice. Surprisingly Lapchick never got off his chair while Louie ran things. Don't get me wrong not comparing Chris with the great Lapchick. Now if only we could find an assistant similar to Louie.

Jack, didn't coach Lapchick suffer from severe spinal stenosis or other medical issues at the time?

 

[MJDinkins]

A reminder for all of you sympathizing with a very well compensated coaching staff:

Remember that Mike Dunlap won 6 conference games with 6 scholarship players, all freshmen (and Malik Stith) in what was a tougher conference at the time.

I agree that minus Lovett that our expectations needed to be lowered. If we were 3-5 or even 2-6 right now it would be understandable, but 0-8 is beyond unacceptable. I agree it's generally not a good idea to boo the players but the coaches are absolutely fair game. They are the ones being paid good money to do this. I do think Mullin deserves (and will realistically get) more time but we as a fan base need to let our voices be heard regarding accountability. I would encourage everyone to e-mail President Gempesaw, Joe Oliva and Anton Goff. I have season tickets, but I have told them that I will not be buying any concessions, merch, or season tickets for next year until and unless there is a veteran assistant coach brought in here. Make your voices heard and make a statement with your wallet.

Dunlap's conference was tougher at the top, but there was a lot of dead weight at the bottom of that league. They put 9 of 16 teams in the ncaa's, which is 56%, and you only played a few teams twice (which they usually based on preseason expectations).

Big East is getting 6 minimum this year, which is a better percentage, and you have to play everyone twice. Not that that's an excuse for what's going on, but I'm not sure that the schedule is easier in this conference.

Interesting comparison. We basically had God's Gift, Harkless, D'Angelo, Pointer, Greene, Amir Garrett, Malik Stith and Nurideen Lindsey for a few games.

You might be applauding the 6 Big East wins (2 against Depaul, Cincinnati, West Virginia, Providence, Notre Dame).

However, we also had some very questionable losses that season. We lost to Northwestern and Detroit. along with some bad losses to Rutgers (14-18 that year), Pittsburgh (13-17 that year), Villanova (13-19 that year), and Seton Hall (10-16 that year). We also beat Texas Pan American by only 5 points at home.

So that season was a bit different than this one.

Nurideen Lindsey never played in any conference games.

You're off, per Pittsburgh's (5-13 in Big East play/22-17 overall) and Seton Hall's record (8-10 in conference play/21-13 overall).

Not to mention, this was in a MUCH better Big East conference, and they still won 6 conference games playing 5 freshman and God's Gift (without a point guard and only Harrison as the team's only reliable outside threat).

 

[redfan259999888]

I was curious about every every coach for SJU since the BE began.
Here is each records for their first 3 seasons.

Lou
1979–80 Lou Carnesecca 24–5 5–1 T-1st NCAA Second Round
1980–81 Lou Carnesecca 17–11 8–6 3rd NIT First Round
1981–82 Lou Carnesecca 21–9 9–5 3rd NCAA Second Round
62-25 24-14

Mahoney
1992–93 Brian Mahoney 19–11 12–6 2nd NCAA Second Round
1993–94 Brian Mahoney 12–17 5–13 9th
1994–95 Brian Mahoney 14–14 7–11 8th NIT First Round
45-42 24-30
Fran
1996–97 Fran Fraschilla 13–14 8–10 5th (BE6)
1997–98 Fran Fraschilla 22–10 13–5 2nd (BE6) NCAA First Round
35-24 21-15

Jarvis

1998–99 Mike Jarvis 28–9 14–4 3rd NCAA Regional Final
1999-00 Mike Jarvis 25–8 12–4 3rd NCAA Second Round
2000–01 Mike Jarvis 14–15** 8–8 3rd (East)
67-32 34-16

Norm
2004–05 Norm Roberts 9–18 3–13 12th
2005–06 Norm Roberts 12–15 5–11 15th
2006–07 Norm Roberts 16–15 7–9 11th
37-48 15-33

Lavin
2010–11 Steve Lavin 21–12 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12 Steve Lavin
Mike Dunlap 2–2
11–17 N/A
6–12 T-11th
2012–13 Steve Lavin 17–16 8–10 10th NIT Second Round

Chris
2015–16 Chris Mullin 8–24 1–17 10th
2016–17 Chris Mullin 14–19 7–11 8th
2017-18 Chris Mullin 10-10 0-8
32-53 8-36

So the worst Norm did in his first 3 season was get 3 wins, if Mullin fails to get 3 wins this year, he'll have done worse then god aweful Norm twice, now that's hard to do.