St John’s Hiring Pause & Budget Challenges

[quote="Proud Alumn" post=366121]I have been saying for years that St. John's needs to re-interpret its mission. It needs to right-size the school to have a smaller student body with better academic credentials, mainly by raising the floor. There are thousands of very-good students at St. Johns, as good as most schools out there, but the school fails them by also accepting hundreds of students that are not strong enough academically. This drags down the reputation of the school and lessens the opportunities for those graduates that are top students. Approximately 25% of the class are in the bottom half of their high schools. Almost 1 in 4 students are below-B students in high school. You should have to at least pull Bs to have a good chance to get into a top-level college. Not St. John's. Almost 25% of the class is also in the bottom half of SAT scores.
I would love to see St. John's get rid of the Staten Island campus, and get rid of any duplicative programs in CPS. CPS shouldn't have an English curriculum or Business Management curriculum when we have a liberal arts school and a business school already.
Poor families already have options that are probably better for them than St. John's- SUNY and CUNY. St. John's should focus on giving opportunities to the middle class who don't have the means for the Ivy League or are just solid B or B+ students and would benefit from a top private university education. Improve the academic reputation of the school. Downsize, have 2,000 or less entering classes, and be smaller and stronger rather than larger and open-door and weaker.[/quote]

You make some interesting points. Could you provide the source for the statistics/facts you provided so that I can look into it more? Thanks!
 
[quote="panther2" post=366212]I hear that St. Johns is suffering because of its mission to serve the underpriviliged and that 25% of incoming freshman have low grades and SAT scores. The way it is written is as if there is a correlation between the two. Does anyone really know who the underperforming 25% are. Could they possibly be Catholic High School graduates who were not able to get into Villanova, Notre Dame, or Georgetown because of their GPA's and test scores but their parents could afford to send them to St Johns.
This is a perfect example of class bias. They do no not have the same benefits as me so they can't be as good as me. We need to gather information, stop, and think before making generalizations and coming to conclusions about what the problem is.[/quote]

I'm no expert on this, but it seems that:

The St. John's model is probably having quotas, serving the underprivileged many of whom are 1st in their family to go to college, and thus spending a lot of money instead of making a lot of money.

The model for more competitive private schools is to ignore quotas or not take them so seriously, use the blind merit system (no one cares what you look like...if you have good enough grades you get in), and this increases prestige/employer perception/rankings and thus when students graduate they are much more likely to donate. Other people hear it's a good school and have their kids apply. Money coming in and not out.

One model is better financially than the other. That's all my point is. I think it's a great idea to give aid and assistance to the underprivileged but they should be deserving based on their grades, quotas should not exist because it kills meritocracy, and serving the underprivileged does not have to be our #1 core value. It can be emphasized without being our main mission.
 
[quote="panther2" post=366212]I hear that St. Johns is suffering because of its mission to serve the underpriviliged and that 25% of incoming freshman have low grades and SAT scores. The way it is written is as if there is a correlation between the two. Does anyone really know who the underperforming 25% are. Could they possibly be Catholic High School graduates who were not able to get into Villanova, Notre Dame, or Georgetown because of their GPA's and test scores but their parents could afford to send them to St Johns.
This is a perfect example of class bias. They do no not have the same benefits as me so they can't be as good as me. We need to gather information, stop, and think before making generalizations and coming to conclusions about what the problem is.[/quote]

You made an incorrect assumption there. I wasn't correlating income and grades. But there is a connection- SJU accepts these C students because they need the tuition money. SJU should downsize the school, reduce the budget, and improve the academic scores of the incoming students, regardless of their income level.
 
The school used to post the information on its website through the President's strategic initiatives page, but you can look at the US News information.
 
[quote="Proud Alumn" post=366247]The school used to post the information on its website through the President's strategic initiatives page, but you can look at the US News information.[/quote]

the rankings have fallen each year since presidents Gempesaw's reign. the thought was hiring a layman will not only cleanup father Harrington's scandal but also improve the academics of the school.
 
Gempesaw has made some positive changes but he hasn't done anything transformative, which is disappointing. However, he may not have had the authority from the Board to make the changes necessary to really improve the school's reputation.
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=366223][quote="panther2" post=366212]I hear that St. Johns is suffering because of its mission to serve the underpriviliged and that 25% of incoming freshman have low grades and SAT scores. The way it is written is as if there is a correlation between the two. Does anyone really know who the underperforming 25% are. Could they possibly be Catholic High School graduates who were not able to get into Villanova, Notre Dame, or Georgetown because of their GPA's and test scores but their parents could afford to send them to St Johns.
This is a perfect example of class bias. They do no not have the same benefits as me so they can't be as good as me. We need to gather information, stop, and think before making generalizations and coming to conclusions about what the problem is.[/quote]

I'm no expert on this, but it seems that:

The St. John's model is probably having quotas, serving the underprivileged many of whom are 1st in their family to go to college, and thus spending a lot of money instead of making a lot of money.

The model for more competitive private schools is to ignore quotas or not take them so seriously, use the blind merit system (no one cares what you look like...if you have good enough grades you get in), and this increases prestige/employer perception/rankings and thus when students graduate they are much more likely to donate. Other people hear it's a good school and have their kids apply. Money coming in and not out.

One model is better financially than the other. That's all my point is. I think it's a great idea to give aid and assistance to the underprivileged but they should be deserving based on their grades, quotas should not exist because it kills meritocracy, and serving the underprivileged does not have to be our #1 core value. It can be emphasized without being our main mission.[/quote]
I believe serving the underprivileged is the Vincentian mission.
 
St. John's is not serving the underprivileged by wrecking the school's academic reputation. SJU should seek to help the underprivileged that it is best suited to serve in the best way possible. Having 25% of the class come from students with C or worse averages isn't serving anyone well.
 
At one point we may have to change the mission because it seems unfair that a lot of us in the Business, Law, Pharmacy and Biotech Institute part of the university (where you actually have to be on your game to get in) is being held back by the CPS students.

The school of education is 50/50 but those CPS students are really making us look bad and that’s where the majority of our problems are. The business school has a majority of its students in the top 10 percent of its class
https://poetsandquantsforundergrads...ns-university-peter-j-tobin-college-business/
With way better scores




These CPS students need to step up.
 
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[quote="Sju grad 13" post=366260]At one point we may have to change the mission
[/quote]
—————-
People post about the “MISSION” of StJohn’s, or what they believe it to be but I have been unable to find a written narrative of it.

I would appreciate if someone would please post the text of the “Mission” of St. John’s University.

Thanks
 
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[quote="Sju grad 13" post=366260]At one point we may have to change the mission because it seems unfair that a lot of us in the Business, Law, Pharmacy and Biotech Institute part of the university (where you actually have to be on your game to get in) is being held back by the CPS students.

The school of education is 50/50 but those CPS students are really making us look bad and that’s where the majority of our problems are. The business school has a majority of its students in the top 10 percent of its class
https://poetsandquantsforundergrads...ns-university-peter-j-tobin-college-business/
With way better scores




These CPS students need to step up.[/quote]

St. John's graduate programs are well-respected...it seems to be the undergrad lack of competitiveness that hurts the reputation. We are either bottom of the Big East in academics or 2nd to last and by a far margin I believe last I checked. No one has issues with underprivileged students. Just have the grades to get in. Harvard is prestigious, because you can't get in if you get below average grades. You can't even get in if you have good grades. You have to have near perfect or literally perfect grades. They get the best of the best. If Harvard started letting 25% of students in with C's the reputation would plummet. St. John's will never be considered Duke academically, but no reason we shouldn't be top 75 or so nationally. Worst case top 100. What are we now like #180? Other people I work with went to schools like Adelphi, Farmingdale, Post, Dowling, Molloy, etc. and they are great options for many but none of them were nearly as competitive as St. John's for graduate school. St. John's required the GRE be taken when the others did not and they interview you unlike those schools. Several students I went to grad school with were kicked out because they couldn't keep up. It wasn't a joke they really made sure you belonged. So like I said, I think grad school is pretty competitive however undergrad is what drags the reputation down.
 
I'm all for better financials and better academics, as I'm sure most alumni are. Helping underprivileged students with worse grades shouldn't drag down the rest of our school (which appears to be the case, unfortunately). We shouldn't be doing something that has a notable impact on the school's ranking and thus our degrees. I honestly don't know if the claims are being exaggerated or not, but if they have merit and this stuff is really harming the school then things need to change. Penny pinching should not be the answer. We're a University and should participate in charity, but that charity shouldn't come at the expense of all of us (most of whom paid for their degrees).
 
Just to add- I was a Graduate Assistant at St. John's a few years ago. One of my tasks was to grade undergrad work (mostly essays), and a sizable percent of the work was completely embarrassing to read (probably about 1/3). Legitimately looked like middle school or even elementary school work. I was very confused given how much better the best papers (top 1/3) were, but reading this makes a lot more sense. The way I was supposed to grade the papers (how the teachers did) basically still gave the bottom 1/3 passing grades, even though there's no way they deserved to pass. Just kind of ridiculous that none of them would have passed my (private) high school but all of them were given passes in college.

If St. John's is accepting these students due to necessity (revenue), then that's fine I guess. But if we're also giving them financial aid which keeps us from hiring staff then that's ridiculous.
 
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[quote="Mike Zaun" post=366223][quote="panther2" post=366212]I hear that St. Johns is suffering because of its mission to serve the underpriviliged and that 25% of incoming freshman have low grades and SAT scores. The way it is written is as if there is a correlation between the two. Does anyone really know who the underperforming 25% are. Could they possibly be Catholic High School graduates who were not able to get into Villanova, Notre Dame, or Georgetown because of their GPA's and test scores but their parents could afford to send them to St Johns.
This is a perfect example of class bias. They do no not have the same benefits as me so they can't be as good as me. We need to gather information, stop, and think before making generalizations and coming to conclusions about what the problem is.[/quote]

I'm no expert on this, but it seems that:

The St. John's model is probably having quotas, serving the underprivileged many of whom are 1st in their family to go to college, and thus spending a lot of money instead of making a lot of money.

The model for more competitive private schools is to ignore quotas or not take them so seriously, use the blind merit system (no one cares what you look like...if you have good enough grades you get in), and this increases prestige/employer perception/rankings and thus when students graduate they are much more likely to donate. Other people hear it's a good school and have their kids apply. Money coming in and not out.

One model is better financially than the other. That's all my point is. I think it's a great idea to give aid and assistance to the underprivileged but they should be deserving based on their grades, quotas should not exist because it kills meritocracy, and serving the underprivileged does not have to be our #1 core value. It can be emphasized without being our main mission.[/quote]



Mike, has anyone told you what the model for St Johns is? If not please do some research before you answer. I went to a very good Catholic High School on Long Island and graduated in 1965. Most of my classmates who went to St Johns were slackers in high school. Not saying that they were not intelligent, but they did not apply themselves. Their parents were making a comfortable living. This is why I have a problem with the generalization that it is only underpriviliged and first generation college students that are the problem.

I have no idea what the scores are, so I can't comment one way or the other. What I do know is that when I decided to enroll in St. Johns in 1982, I graduated in 4 1/2 years while working a full time job. I then went to graduate school at NYU and received a Masters Degree in Rehabilitation Counseling. At the time I attended, NYU had the top Rehabilitation Counseling program in the Country. While I had some cousins who graduated from college, I was the first in my immediate family to graduate and then get a Masters Degree.

There are many variables to consider before we can say what is the problem at St. Johns.
 
panther, you are the one who keeps equating reference to the poor-grade students to low income students. I never said anything like that. But the mission of the school to have large numbers of low income students can only be done by admitting more higher and/or lower income poor-grade students (with their financial aid) to bring in more tuition revenue.

The better interpretation of the mission would be to bring in only quality students, and I'm not talking only elite-level grades but the floor should at least be to pull Bs in high school and have at least a 50th percentile SAT score, and be open to those decent to excellent students coming from low income or middle class families. If the University got rid of the Staten Island Campus and cut CPS in half, the reputation of the school would jump up.
 
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It does seem that the school had too many undergraduate students. In addition to taking in a lot of underperforming students, the school needs to give out a lot of merit scholarships to bring in students to raise the profile. This is a complicated problem and well beyond my pay grade.
 
[quote="panther2" post=366268][quote="Mike Zaun" post=366223][quote="panther2" post=366212]I hear that St. Johns is suffering because of its mission to serve the underpriviliged and that 25% of incoming freshman have low grades and SAT scores. The way it is written is as if there is a correlation between the two. Does anyone really know who the underperforming 25% are. Could they possibly be Catholic High School graduates who were not able to get into Villanova, Notre Dame, or Georgetown because of their GPA's and test scores but their parents could afford to send them to St Johns.
This is a perfect example of class bias. They do no not have the same benefits as me so they can't be as good as me. We need to gather information, stop, and think before making generalizations and coming to conclusions about what the problem is.[/quote]

I'm no expert on this, but it seems that:

The St. John's model is probably having quotas, serving the underprivileged many of whom are 1st in their family to go to college, and thus spending a lot of money instead of making a lot of money.

The model for more competitive private schools is to ignore quotas or not take them so seriously, use the blind merit system (no one cares what you look like...if you have good enough grades you get in), and this increases prestige/employer perception/rankings and thus when students graduate they are much more likely to donate. Other people hear it's a good school and have their kids apply. Money coming in and not out.

One model is better financially than the other. That's all my point is. I think it's a great idea to give aid and assistance to the underprivileged but they should be deserving based on their grades, quotas should not exist because it kills meritocracy, and serving the underprivileged does not have to be our #1 core value. It can be emphasized without being our main mission.[/quote]



Mike, has anyone told you what the model for St Johns is? If not please do some research before you answer. I went to a very good Catholic High School on Long Island and graduated in 1965. Most of my classmates who went to St Johns were slackers in high school. Not saying that they were not intelligent, but they did not apply themselves. Their parents were making a comfortable living. This is why I have a problem with the generalization that it is only underpriviliged and first generation college students that are the problem.

I have no idea what the scores are, so I can't comment one way or the other. What I do know is that when I decided to enroll in St. Johns in 1982, I graduated in 4 1/2 years while working a full time job. I then went to graduate school at NYU and received a Masters Degree in Rehabilitation Counseling. At the time I attended, NYU had the top Rehabilitation Counseling program in the Country. While I had some cousins who graduated from college, I was the first in my immediate family to graduate and then get a Masters Degree.

There are many variables to consider before we can say what is the problem at St. Johns.[/quote]

Wonder if those guys you knew were poor students but good test takers. I know some guys like that who had lower GPA's but actually were quite intelligent and proved it on the SAT. One of them went to Michigan which is a tough school to get into especially for out of state students. Maybe it was something like that. We should not be letting in many students with a poor GPA and low test scores. I don't see how anyone can make a reasonable argument that we should keep letting in tons of students with poor grades who may not be ready for Molloy let alone St. John's. It's a disservice to them, because they will not be able to keep up with the coursework and will be embarrassed in class. It's pretty difficult to get below a 3.0 in high school with all the BS classes, homework counting towards grades, and extra help or even re-taking tests. If you're getting below that in HS, should you really be at SJU? Obviously there are exceptions like the one above where they take tests very well and prove their worth. At Marist there was a student who was accepted on some sort of special scholarship designed to serve underprivileged students. That student was called on in English class to read a passage aloud and he could not read it. Also failed papers miserably. Eventually, he left the school. There's a reason I didn't get in Harvard...I probably couldn't handle that. Nothing wrong with selecting a school more on par with your abilities. I don't belong in Harvard and that's okay with me.
 
[quote="Proud Alumn" post=366252]Gempesaw has made some positive changes but he hasn't done anything transformative, which is disappointing. However, he may not have had the authority from the Board to make the changes necessary to really improve the school's reputation.[/quote]

Wrong. Flat out wrong.

In no particular order, Gempeshaw, despite tightly controlling spending, as he should , has spent generously on:

1. Hiring top notch administrators including Drs. Passerini and Sharpe, who are the Dean's of the Collins College of Professional Studies, and Tobin School of Business. I've been told that they are in a group of highly talented hires who would not have come to St. John's except for Gempeshaw's passion to improve academics.

2. Successful Initiatives to increase the Catholic student population of this Catholic university. We now draw large numbers of high performing catholic high school students from the best catholic hs in the area due to increased grants and scholarships. (St. Anthony's and Chaminade combine provide almost 50 freshmen each of the past few years.

3. Development and support of the St. John's institute for Catholic Schools, which provides collaborative guidance and participation of all 3 area Dioceses and whose 3 superintendents and auxiliary bishops are members.

4. Securing some willdly generous donations. Such as the $10 million recently donated by Bill and Leslie Collins. Recently feted 82 donors who have each in the aggregate donated $1 million

5. Been in full support of the Cragg and Anderson hires, the highest investments in those positions to date.

There is more, but attracting top academic talent while also educating students from disadvantaged economic backgrounds is not mutually exclusive. You can do both, and sju is doing that.

I'm just as proud of the facts facts that under Gempeshaw we have refocused our Catholic identity as a school, attracting top notch academic talent through scholarships, and graduating students who are being enabled to break the chains of multi-generational poverty.

If our rankings suffer as a result, I consider that a source of pride and not disappointment.
 
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[quote="otis" post=366261][quote="Sju grad 13" post=366260]At one point we may have to change the mission
[/quote]
—————-
People post about the “MISSION” of StJohn’s, or what they believe it to be but I have been unable to find a written narrative of it.

I would appreciate if someone would please post the text of the “Mission” of St. John’s University.

Thanks[/quote]

Please see attached. Fairly detailed. I believe this is what you are looking for. If you are an Alum, I believe it is periodically highlighted in the semi annual or annual news letter you would receive. This was last approved by BOT in Oct 2015. Now if you are looking for more “detail” about academic standards a mission statement would never address that level of granularity.

[URL]https://www.stjohns.edu/about/history-and-facts/our-mission[/URL]
 
I believe the Academic Standing of the University is important to Alumni, even one as old as I am .. Much has been written here that attempts to explain the issues that have contributed to the reasons why St John’s is ranked in the 180’s by US World Report currently. Which pretty much puts us at the bottom tier of our fellow BE Schools . To me , a school like St John’s to be ranked so low is problematic , if not embarrassing . Virtually all of the other schools , especially the Jesuit ones, G’Town, Marquette , Xavier, Creighton, are all in the top 100 , with G’Town in the top 20 . Villanova , a Augustinian school is top 50. DePaul , another large Vincentian school , like us is ranked in the 120’s . Seton Hall and Providence , smaller Catholic schools are also ranked higher . Former BE members , Notre Dame and BC , are top 25 . What makes us so poor in comparison ? Those who have more inside information than I do, have stated the numerous reasons why we have ranked so low . I believe those explanations have validity . However, as many have noted , the School , since President Gempesaw ‘s era has taken substantial strides in bringing in new Deans in Pharmacy and Business . As a Tobin School alum and receiver of the Business School’s publications , the programs established by Dean Sharpe are impressive and sure to raise the credentials in that discipline . But , like the progress of our BB team , it will take time . Likely the same for the other Colleges within the University structure. Last spring , a very respected and well known Alum , who posts here , privately communicated to me that St John’s had 15 students from Chaminade that enrolled at St John’s which was the same number of Chaminade grads who enrolled at Notre Dame . ND routinely takes a lot of Chaminade kids , because they are top students . I know because my Granddaughter is a sophomore at ND . She recently said to me , “ Grandpa, you can’t believe how many kids here at ND went to that high school .As opposed to just 2 of her Classmates from her public High School in Port Washington , which is a top notch public school . Rest assured , I’m not advocating for SJU to duplicate ND. That isn’t in the cards . But, it does point out the effort being made here recently to upgrade the Student Body . And , the overall Academic standing . I don’t know the answer as to how that can be accelerated but , as I see it , there is much evidence to show it is a University priority . There should be no obstacle to St John’s being ranked in the top 100 of the Nation’s schools but , it will take time . Maybe longer than it takes our BB program to take its’ place , once again as a top 50 or even, top 25 team . Go Redmen !
 
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