SJU's campus and SJU in general

[IDRAFT]

And for those knocking Queens let's focus on the area around SJU.

Jamaica Estates - Houses go for $2.5 Million
Fresh Meadows - Houses go for $1.25 Million

On the other hand it's hard to find a house for more than 300K in Athens Georgia, as almost all are cheaper. Simple economics tell you which is a preferable location.

The median home price in Paris is $ 120K. The median home price in Commack is 400K. Therefore Commack > Paris.

The median home price in Wyandanch is 200K. The median home price in Chicago is $189K, The median home price in Cairo is $125K. The median house price in Rome is 120K. Therefore Cairo Rome and Chicago < Wyandanch.

Come on.

Jamaica Estates and Fresh Meadows are "neighborhoods" bordering the St. John's campus. They are not cities, stupid!

I doubt the houses immediately north of Union Turnpike, or south of the Campus just north or south of the GCP are going for $1.25M let alone $2.5 M. And you can go to other parts of the country and that $1.25M and $2.5M house would cost you a hell of a lot less than what it cost you here.

That being said, the campus has improved tremendously in looks inside and out, no doubt. How high that is on a potential recruits lairs depends on the individual recruit and how mush he might or might not value it. The campus atmosphere not just aesthics can also play a part.

A campus with a lot of activities going on and life to it definitely helps no matter how the campus looks. It is why teams with decent football programs try to get recruits to come and visit during the fall during a home game if they can't get them for midnight madness due to the excitement around campus and the many different activities going on.

I was on ca,mouse this fall during an open house this fall and their was a lot going on and the campus was buzzing. There was at least one recruit visiting that day IIRC.

I'm quoting your post, SJU85, to debate one small item, not because I disagree with your overall post.

I just did a quick search on Trulia for something north of Union Turnpike and the first house I found is 75-20 183rd Street.

Listing price - $1,499,000

I would be surprised if any private houses north of Union anywhere near the SJU campus can be had for less than $1,000,000.

I agree the neighborhood south of the campus is not nearly as nice. And property values support that as well as $500,000 can get you a house in Briarwood or Inwood.

Not personally debating the campus itself versus any other campus. But I have seen Queens referred to, among other things, a shithole, on these boards. Now we all have different tastes and if it is as simple as "what I don't like automatically is a shithole" that's fine. If the definition of a shithole is an awful place that nobody wants to live in, well Queens is densely populated and has high property values.

My defense of the area was an attempt to diffuse the idea that it is some recruiting burden. I seriously doubt that. Could there be recruits that are dying for a picture perfect campus in a college town? I think so, and I think there always has been, and there always will be those kids. SJU is not for them. But as both the campus and surrounding area have improved a great deal in the last twenty years and the basketball team has declined, it's hard to see how the campus or the area is driving the decline.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

All this information is well and good but the fact remain:
-We are ranked 160th in the nation as per US News and FALLING......people make push this aside as not accurate info.blah blah blah but US News is a BIG measuring stick families go by. ....and this school has shown no plan to right this ship.

It's still thought of as a commuter school......just read some reviews on college confidential and it will just make you think twice about going there.

It's not the campus...its the perception of the school and until the brain trust wakes up nothing is going to change.

I find it weird that a school that has multiple top 100 programs ( Law, pharmacy, education, *biotechnology, risk management, accounting, audiology, biology, and library information systems) can"t market that. I understand 6 out of those 9 require graduate school or heavy math courses, but still, they're high paying careers.

This doesn't even count that we are in the top 10 percent of universities ( fortune, Princeton review, and Forbes).Heck, UNLV just got two elite star recruits ( Brandon McCoy, and Amuri Hardy) and they don't even care about academics. Hell, as much as we joke about our current students, SJU acceptance rate was 49 percent this year vs 93 vs Kentucky ( source unigo, and college resource 2016), but Kentucky is about to get the best center in NYC ( Bamba) . Again for emphasis, this university is listed on Forbes for colleges that make you rich, listed by business insider as one of the most underrated universities in the country , produce 32 fullbrights in the last 4 years, has three international campuses, ranks third in Diversity ( rutgers, and Stanford are ahead), plus We are the ONLY high major university in NYC.

^^^ This is just the academic part.

2)Now the alumni part, our alumni are everywhere. Think about this, we have the CFO's of Pfizer, Turner, KKR, and Roc Nation as alumni

-CEO's of Synchrony Financial, **A&E networks, protiviti, united healthcare insurance, Apollo theater, Cantor Fitzgerald real estate, president of the red sox as alumni.

-lead managing directors at ( AIG, Blackrock, Grant Thornton, BDO, BNY Mellon, guggenheim partners, Paulson & CO, and Legg mason).

Celebrity alumni like, J. Cole, Vanessa Simmons, Run (from run-DMC) , Terrance Winter, etc.

You trying to tell me if you had to network and grow favoritism with some school alumni, ours wouldn't be good enough? I'm not even bringing up the fact we have c- level executives at (ESPN, Interpublic group, UPS, Disney, Shake shack, Macy's, and MSG) and other Elite corporations.

^^^ this is just some alumni I was able to research.

3) Basketball facilities

-Two hall of fame coaches
-MSG for homecourt
- New weight facilities
- and a president who seems willing to invest in basketball


* Yes, SJU campus is not Pepperdine university visually, but would an perspective recruit really pass on the following three?


Sidenote:
1) * is for graduate ranking not undergraduate.

2) **CEO emeritus.


Maybe the alcohol is hitting me, but SJU still has alot to offer.

For those who want to speak to Bobby directly and share your perspectives and solutions you can on June 3:

http://www.stjohns.edu/alumni-friends/grand-alumni-homecoming-weekend/schedule-events

 

[fuchsia]

And for those knocking Queens let's focus on the area around SJU.

Jamaica Estates - Houses go for $2.5 Million
Fresh Meadows - Houses go for $1.25 Million

On the other hand it's hard to find a house for more than 300K in Athens Georgia, as almost all are cheaper. Simple economics tell you which is a preferable location.

The median home price in Paris is $ 120K. The median home price in Commack is 400K. Therefore Commack > Paris.

The median home price in Wyandanch is 200K. The median home price in Chicago is $189K, The median home price in Cairo is $125K. The median house price in Rome is 120K. Therefore Cairo Rome and Chicago < Wyandanch.
Come on.

Seems to be an epidemic of people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[Section3]

There's been a lot of talk about the SJU campus, and as one of you commented, maybe you haven't been on campus in a long while.

I've been as critical as anyone on redmen.com concerning the quality of student SJU is attracting and about the school in general. I'm still critical, but recently my outlook has been raised considerably.

As I typically try to do, when we have a position open we post at SJU in their career development office. When we did, we were told there was a jobs fair the following week and would we be interested in exhibiting. The jobs fair was the day after I would arrive home very late at night from a 4 day west coast trip, so I declined. There was a $200 fee per company, which I thought was foolish considering the benefit to the university of hiring their students.

When we declined, we received another offer inviting us to exhibit for free. I was still inclined to decline, but they were so gracious about the offer, decided to accept. They also offered that one of the Deans would like to meet with me if I had time, so we worked that in also.

The jobs fair was in Taffner Field house, which is a really nice building. As with the better conferences we attend, SJu staff was very gracious in helping us get set up, and also came by to thank us for participating. We met some really terrific kids, and offered two of them internships, one that has the potential of FT employment after. These were really bright, personable kids, and would represent SJU well in any era of the school. One was very near the top of his class in pharmacy school, 3.92 GPA in pharmacy, and also is in the President's society, students government, and drama club. The other had a full schoalrship to SJU and was an honors student and Stuyvesant HS grad.

At the conclusion of the jobs fair, someone from career development office personally escorted us to the library, whose exterior is familiar, but on the interior bears no comparison to the library we knew. There is a coffee shop on the first floor which is first class, and the upper floors are now offices which are also first rate. If memory serves me, they used to be classrooms. The Dean was impressive and gracious, and new to SJU. Unlike many academicians, she had solid industry experience and success, had fantastic academic achievements of her own, and was as warm and gracious as could be. Rather than lecture me about the school, she conversed easily and asked my opinions on some of their programs and offerings. She is seriously interested in forging relationships with the local business community to strengthen SJU in all ways.

I am still kind of dumbfounded at the transformation underway, and sheepishly embarrassed that as I have taken shots at the school some very good stuff is happening on campus that will make all alumni very proud of SJU.

I recently hired an older SJU alumnus that was caught in the downsizing of her long term position with an industry struggling to convert to the digital age. I am thrilled to have gotten such a high caliber resource and person. The kids I interviewed at the jobs fair were all terrific students.

If you haven't considered hiring an SJU kid for an internship or FT position, I'd strongly advocate you do both if you are in a position to influence such hirings. I'd also encourage any of you to visit the campus, which is dramatically improved over the campus we attended.

Great story beast

 

[fun]

Queens is densely populated and has high property values.

That's like saying birds fly and have wings. Birds fly because the have wings. Queens has high property values because it's densely populated. That's not an and.

My defense of the area was an attempt to diffuse the idea that it is some recruiting burden. I seriously doubt that. Could there be recruits that are dying for a picture perfect campus in a college town? I think so, and I think there always has been, and there always will be those kids. SJU is not for them. But as both the campus and surrounding area have improved a great deal in the last twenty years and the basketball team has declined, it's hard to see how the campus or the area is driving the decline.

I wouldn't say that location is driving the decline of the basketball team, that would be silly. Obviously there are lots of factors that have contributed to the awfulness. But when it comes to recruiting I think it fair to say that being in Jamaica probably doesn't help. Even if it's not a burden, it's not a benefit. Jamaica Estates might be wonderful, but the students don't live in Jamaica Estates. And they don't have to commute to Manhattan every day, the proximity to which is in great part what makes living in Queens desirable to people who unlike me don't think it's a cesspool. Add to that the weather and the diminished student life at a commuter school and the athletic facilities and the academics and the last 20 years of basketball history and I'm pleasantly surprised when anyone commits.

 

[RedStormNC]

Interesting reading some of the student comments/reviews.

As the Amazon mindset of ratings/reviews kicks in, I can see this type of format having more influence than US News/Forbes (from a prospective student standpoint)

 

[Class of 72]

No offense to those who attended St. John's reluctantly and who went there when it was a commuter school and who haven't visited the campus in a quarter century but comments like these are bogus:

"Add to that the weather and the diminished student life at a commuter school and the athletic facilities and the academics and the last 20 years of basketball history and I'm pleasantly surprised when anyone commits."

The weather issue is so irrelevant that only a retiree could see a benefit in that argument. We are not recruiting retirees. Nor do I want a kid whom I expect to be a hard nosed basketball player to worry about whether he will need long John's in January. Winters in NYC are mild compared to Syracuse, Storrs, Madison, Chicago, Milwaukee, Ames, South Bend, Pittsburgh, and a host of other cities that have no problem bringing in recruits for visits, many from the south and west coast.

Most here have no concept of "student life" on campus. The kids I know all enjoyed their time there. More than half of the admitted freshmen now live on campus. Many students live within walking distance. No, we don't have thousands of acres like Duke but Duke has fewer undergraduate students than St. John's and their campus life is exceptional.

The athletic facilities are well above average for basketball players. Considering the most important training requirements for basketball are a ball, a court and hoops, I think we got it covered.

We fired a coach that went to 2 NCAA tournament appearances and 2 NIT's in the four years he coached. The other 16 years of our history is our own doing as is having a current coaching staff with ZERO experience. The last two years of losing records have more of an impact on current recruits than the historical perspective presented by some here.

I am always pleasantly surprised when a recruit selects us because we specialize in surprises.

 

[fun]

The weather issue is so irrelevant that only a retiree could see a benefit in that argument

“Hakeem lands at JFK in New York and St. John’s is supposed to meet him,” Davis recalled. “No one’s there. He has three other tickets. One for Louisville, the University of Houston and Providence. He walks outside at JFK and it’s cold.”

Said Olajuwon: “As soon as I walked through that door, the breeze hit me from outside. I couldn’t even go outside, so I just went straight back in. What am I gonna do?”

Davis: “He sees a baggage handler that happens to be Nigerian and he asks him, ‘Hey, which one of these have weather similar to Lagos, Nigeria?’ The baggage handler looks and he says, ‘Houston.'”

Olajuwon: “So I changed my ticket to Houston."

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

I find it weird that a school that has multiple top 100 programs ( Law, pharmacy, education, *biotechnology, risk management, accounting, audiology, biology, and library information systems) can"t market that. I understand 6 out of those 9 require graduate school or heavy math courses, but still, they're high paying careers.

This doesn't even count that we are in the top 10 percent of universities ( fortune, Princeton review, and Forbes).Heck, UNLV just got two elite star recruits ( Brandon McCoy, and Amuri Hardy) and they don't even care about academics. Hell, as much as we joke about our current students, SJU acceptance rate was 49 percent this year vs 93 vs Kentucky ( source unigo, and college resource 2016), but Kentucky is about to get the best center in NYC ( Bamba) . Again for emphasis, this university is listed on Forbes for colleges that make you rich, listed by business insider as one of the most underrated universities in the country , produce 32 fullbrights in the last 4 years, has three international campuses, ranks third in Diversity ( rutgers, and Stanford are ahead), plus We are the ONLY high major university in NYC.

^^^ This is just the academic part.

2)Now the alumni part, our alumni are everywhere. Think about this, we have the CFO's of Pfizer, Turner, KKR, and Roc Nation as alumni

-CEO's of Synchrony Financial, **A&E networks, protiviti, united healthcare insurance, Apollo theater, Cantor Fitzgerald real estate, president of the red sox as alumni.

-lead managing directors at ( AIG, Blackrock, Grant Thornton, BDO, BNY Mellon, guggenheim partners, Paulson & CO, and Legg mason).

Celebrity alumni like, J. Cole, Vanessa Simmons, Run (from run-DMC) , Terrance Winter, etc.

You trying to tell me if you had to network and grow favoritism with some school alumni, ours wouldn't be good enough? I'm not even bringing up the fact we have c- level executives at (ESPN, Interpublic group, UPS, Disney, Shake shack, Macy's, and MSG) and other Elite corporations.

^^^ this is just some alumni I was able to research.

3) Basketball facilities

-Two hall of fame coaches
-MSG for homecourt
- New weight facilities
- and a president who seems willing to invest in basketball


* Yes, SJU campus is not Pepperdine university visually, but would an perspective recruit really pass on the following three?


Sidenote:
1) * is for graduate ranking not undergraduate.

2) **CEO emeritus.


Maybe the alcohol is hitting me, but SJU still has alot to offer.

FWIW..... Stanford's diversity stats:



Rutgers Diversity Stats



St, John's Diversity Stats:

 

[Class of 72]

The weather issue is so irrelevant that only a retiree could see a benefit in that argument

“Hakeem lands at JFK in New York and St. John’s is supposed to meet him,” Davis recalled. “No one’s there. He has three other tickets. One for Louisville, the University of Houston and Providence. He walks outside at JFK and it’s cold.”

Said Olajuwon: “As soon as I walked through that door, the breeze hit me from outside. I couldn’t even go outside, so I just went straight back in. What am I gonna do?”

Davis: “He sees a baggage handler that happens to be Nigerian and he asks him, ‘Hey, which one of these have weather similar to Lagos, Nigeria?’ The baggage handler looks and he says, ‘Houston.'”

Olajuwon: “So I changed my ticket to Houston."

[/quote]

 

[SJU14]

The weather issue is so irrelevant that only a retiree could see a benefit in that argument

“Hakeem lands at JFK in New York and St. John’s is supposed to meet him,” Davis recalled. “No one’s there. He has three other tickets. One for Louisville, the University of Houston and Providence. He walks outside at JFK and it’s cold.”

Said Olajuwon: “As soon as I walked through that door, the breeze hit me from outside. I couldn’t even go outside, so I just went straight back in. What am I gonna do?”

Davis: “He sees a baggage handler that happens to be Nigerian and he asks him, ‘Hey, which one of these have weather similar to Lagos, Nigeria?’ The baggage handler looks and he says, ‘Houston.'”

Olajuwon: “So I changed my ticket to Houston."

[/quote]

To think that weather doesn't play a role in choosing a college is just silly

 

[GardenCity62]

Many factors go Into a recruits selection and the factors change between levels of competition. I saw an interview this past year of Tom Izzo who was asked if the fact that all players at MSU who stayed four years went to a final four for the last x number of years was a recruiting aid. Izzo replied that the only thing that mattered to the players he was recruiting was could he get them to the NBA.
Hopefully some day SJU will be in that same position.

 

[jerseyshorejohnny]

I find it weird that a school that has multiple top 100 programs ( Law, pharmacy, education, *biotechnology, risk management, accounting, audiology, biology, and library information systems) can"t market that. I understand 6 out of those 9 require graduate school or heavy math courses, but still, they're high paying careers.

This doesn't even count that we are in the top 10 percent of universities ( fortune, Princeton review, and Forbes).Heck, UNLV just got two elite star recruits ( Brandon McCoy, and Amuri Hardy) and they don't even care about academics. Hell, as much as we joke about our current students, SJU acceptance rate was 49 percent this year vs 93 vs Kentucky ( source unigo, and college resource 2016), but Kentucky is about to get the best center in NYC ( Bamba) . Again for emphasis, this university is listed on Forbes for colleges that make you rich, listed by business insider as one of the most underrated universities in the country , produce 32 fullbrights in the last 4 years, has three international campuses, ranks third in Diversity ( rutgers, and Stanford are ahead), plus We are the ONLY high major university in NYC.

^^^ This is just the academic part.

2)Now the alumni part, our alumni are everywhere. Think about this, we have the CFO's of Pfizer, Turner, KKR, and Roc Nation as alumni

-CEO's of Synchrony Financial, **A&E networks, protiviti, united healthcare insurance, Apollo theater, Cantor Fitzgerald real estate, president of the red sox as alumni.

-lead managing directors at ( AIG, Blackrock, Grant Thornton, BDO, BNY Mellon, guggenheim partners, Paulson & CO, and Legg mason).

Celebrity alumni like, J. Cole, Vanessa Simmons, Run (from run-DMC) , Terrance Winter, etc.

You trying to tell me if you had to network and grow favoritism with some school alumni, ours wouldn't be good enough? I'm not even bringing up the fact we have c- level executives at (ESPN, Interpublic group, UPS, Disney, Shake shack, Macy's, and MSG) and other Elite corporations.

^^^ this is just some alumni I was able to research.

3) Basketball facilities

-Two hall of fame coaches
-MSG for homecourt
- New weight facilities
- and a president who seems willing to invest in basketball


* Yes, SJU campus is not Pepperdine university visually, but would an perspective recruit really pass on the following three?


Sidenote:
1) * is for graduate ranking not undergraduate.

2) **CEO emeritus.


Maybe the alcohol is hitting me, but SJU still has alot to offer.

Elaine Weddington Steward, Vice President/Club Counsel / Boston Red Sox


Elaine W. Steward joined the club in 1988 as associate counsel and was named assistant general manager in 1990. Steward works on a variety of issues including employment, litigation, licensing, and ballpark improvements.

She worked closely with former Red Sox GM's Lou Gorman and Dan Duquette on baseball issues and was named legal counsel in 1995 and appointed Vice President in 1998.

Steward was a Jackie Robinson Foundation scholarship recipient graduating with honors from St. John's University earning a B.S. in Athletic Administration and a J.D. from St. John's University School of Law. She was an intern for the New York Mets public relations department and the Office of the Commissioner of Baseball through its Executive Development program.

Steward's achievements include selection as one of Ten Outstanding Young Leaders of Boston, election into the YWCA Academy of Women Achievers and receipt of the St. John's University President's Medal, National Association of Black Journalists' Sam Lacy Pioneer Award, Girl Scouts of Eastern Massachusetts Leading Women Award and Boston Business Journal Woman of Influence Award. Steward is featured in the National Baseball Hall of Fame Women in Baseball exhibit.

 

[RedStormNC]

Just my take from personal experience, the Athletic Administration / Sports Management program seemed like a joke when I was there. I can't recall one of those classes I took requiring any degree of critical thinking, writing skill or quantitative analysis.

That said, those who continued on and succeeded at a career in Sports has to have come from work ethic/determination and perhaps internships and networking than from what was learned in the classroom for that major. I believe they could have got there just as well with a degree in most other liberal arts fields.

 

[fun]

Interesting reading some of the student comments/reviews.

As the Amazon mindset of ratings/reviews kicks in, I can see this type of format having more influence than US News/Forbes (from a prospective student standpoint)

There's a lot there to entice the prospective student but my favorite was the complaint about the "serious house centipede problem." That sounds intriguing. I think a lot of basketball players will put up with a dry campus where they're not permitted to have overnight guests of the opposite sex - as opposed to say Louisville, where that seems to be required - but I think many of them would draw the line at a shortage of arthropods.

 

[bamafan]

The weather issue is so irrelevant that only a retiree could see a benefit in that argument

“Hakeem lands at JFK in New York and St. John’s is supposed to meet him,” Davis recalled. “No one’s there. He has three other tickets. One for Louisville, the University of Houston and Providence. He walks outside at JFK and it’s cold.”

Said Olajuwon: “As soon as I walked through that door, the breeze hit me from outside. I couldn’t even go outside, so I just went straight back in. What am I gonna do?”

Davis: “He sees a baggage handler that happens to be Nigerian and he asks him, ‘Hey, which one of these have weather similar to Lagos, Nigeria?’ The baggage handler looks and he says, ‘Houston.'”

Olajuwon: “So I changed my ticket to Houston."

Kid was from Africa, Florida probably would have seemed cold. On the other side of the coin we almost got Carlos Boozer who used to attend some of our games but lost out to Duke. He was from Alaska and word has it when he stepped off the plane at JFK in mid February on a particularly bitter cold day he stated "My what balmy weather you have here in NY".

 

[Sherman Sheridan & Grant]

SJU grad 13
And your post " I find it weird..."
Well said!
Very well articulated!
Good for you and your alma mater!!
Let's go St. John's
And let's go Patience and appreciation for what we do have here...
WT Sherman

 

[mjmaherjr]

bring back the stipend

 

[Class of 72]

The weather issue is so irrelevant that only a retiree could see a benefit in that argument

“Hakeem lands at JFK in New York and St. John’s is supposed to meet him,” Davis recalled. “No one’s there. He has three other tickets. One for Louisville, the University of Houston and Providence. He walks outside at JFK and it’s cold.”

Said Olajuwon: “As soon as I walked through that door, the breeze hit me from outside. I couldn’t even go outside, so I just went straight back in. What am I gonna do?”

Davis: “He sees a baggage handler that happens to be Nigerian and he asks him, ‘Hey, which one of these have weather similar to Lagos, Nigeria?’ The baggage handler looks and he says, ‘Houston.'”

Olajuwon: “So I changed my ticket to Houston."

To think that weather doesn't play a role in choosing a college is just silly[/quote]

Did it affect your decision?
Very few high school students choose a college because of the weather. Location, on the other hand, may play a role but many students don't even visit the town or city long enough to determine whether they will or can adjust to living in Ithaca, N.Y. or Waco, Texas.
For basketball players, which is our focus, it plays almost no role. I'll leave to my fellow redmen fans like OTIS to describe what has made a place like Syracuse so attractive for half a century. Notre Dame has a beautiful campus but have you been there in winter? Four of the school months the campus is covered by snow.
OTHER THAN ACADEMICS a recent study listed the major factors to consider in selecting a college. Like most, "weather" was not one of them.

 

[SJU14]

The weather issue is so irrelevant that only a retiree could see a benefit in that argument

“Hakeem lands at JFK in New York and St. John’s is supposed to meet him,” Davis recalled. “No one’s there. He has three other tickets. One for Louisville, the University of Houston and Providence. He walks outside at JFK and it’s cold.”

Said Olajuwon: “As soon as I walked through that door, the breeze hit me from outside. I couldn’t even go outside, so I just went straight back in. What am I gonna do?”

Davis: “He sees a baggage handler that happens to be Nigerian and he asks him, ‘Hey, which one of these have weather similar to Lagos, Nigeria?’ The baggage handler looks and he says, ‘Houston.'”

Olajuwon: “So I changed my ticket to Houston."

To think that weather doesn't play a role in choosing a college is just silly

Did it affect your decision?
Very few high school students choose a college because of the weather. Location, on the other hand, may play a role but many students don't even visit the town or city long enough to determine whether they will or can adjust to living in Ithaca, N.Y. or Waco, Texas.
For basketball players, which is our focus, it plays almost no role. I'll leave to my fellow redmen fans like OTIS to describe what has made a place like Syracuse so attractive for half a century. Notre Dame has a beautiful campus but have you been there in winter? Four of the school months the campus is covered by snow.
OTHER THAN ACADEMICS a recent study listed the major factors to consider in selecting a college. Like most, "weather" was not one of them.

[/quote]

You keep comparing our weather to these others places, the one thing you are missing is that these schools like Cuse and ND have won consistently for years. We have not done that yet.