SJU-Detroit Game Thread

If you don't have a legit point guard- you can not win at the division I level. Harkless and Pointer are going to be very good- Gift, Harrison and Greene are nice pieces and Lindsey has no basketball IQ. Garrett is yet to be seen but watching him in high school he will not make or break us this year. Hopefully, Lavin can follow up with players on the same level as Harkless and pointer and when Mo and Dom are juniors we can make a run at the tournament.
 

SJ will never make a run at any tourney without 4 or 5 star recruits. That much we have learned from past history. This staff was specifically tasked with getting recruits to sign....not justshove us cursory interest as with Kyle Anderson. Nor were they paid their lofty salaries as coaches to bring on players with questionable academics like Pelle and Sampson, as was eluded to in Hoops Weiss article the other day. Sidiki Johnson would add to that group as players with work ethic issues.

I will not say that Lindsey has no BB IQ as suggested above but he is far from the impact guard that Lavin had alluded to and we, as fans, may have been just a little misled in his talent level. However, he is also a player that once he finds the mojo that he had while in high school and learns the Lavin system, can be a surprise and pay dividends by next season. We, the jury, are still out on him. :)

Harkless and Pointer will develop into stars once their bodies fill out further because they have the natural physical attributes to go along with quickly developing skill sets. Phil also falls into that category. D'Angelo is a little further behind the learning curve like Nurideen but if he and NL ever get their heads and hearts into their game, they will be different players next year.

The fact remains Lavin needs to sign at least three top recruits for next year to continue the talent-building process. There are no days off in recruiting. Getting a 5 star by 2013 would be a must for him to put SJ in a position for a title otherwise we will forever be watching Duke, UNC and Kentucky in the Elite 8.

As far as McDonald All-Americans, SJ cannot seem to sniff one. In the past 10 years we have had 3 or 4 while Kentucky and Carolina have had 30 or 40. They do not take time off in pursuing the top 50 and neither should we. 
 

I would contend that 4 of the last 8 FF teams were not stocked with 4 and 5 star recruits; Butler twice, VCU, and West Virginia. Those types of recruits are desirable, no doubt, but there are many great college players who were never ranked that high. Funny, talking to a buddy of mine who recently observed a Pitt practice; he commented that they probably have never had a higher ranked group of players in the Jamie Dixon era and yet he is having trouble getting them to "put on the hard hat" and play Pitt basketball. As for Lavin, I am amazed that he is being criticized on the board, even politely and softly. The man brought in a class that is more than just competitive in terms of upside against all odds considering his hire date and it is still not enough. Not to mention the inevitable effect on a completely brand new team team not having their coach to begin the season.....just amazing to me.
 
If you don't have a legit point guard- you can not win at the division I level. Harkless and Pointer are going to be very good- Gift, Harrison and Greene are nice pieces and Lindsey has no basketball IQ. Garrett is yet to be seen but watching him in high school he will not make or break us this year. Hopefully, Lavin can follow up with players on the same level as Harkless and pointer and when Mo and Dom are juniors we can make a run at the tournament.
 

SJ will never make a run at any tourney without 4 or 5 star recruits. That much we have learned from past history. This staff was specifically tasked with getting recruits to sign....not justshove us cursory interest as with Kyle Anderson. Nor were they paid their lofty salaries as coaches to bring on players with questionable academics like Pelle and Sampson, as was eluded to in Hoops Weiss article the other day. Sidiki Johnson would add to that group as players with work ethic issues.

I will not say that Lindsey has no BB IQ as suggested above but he is far from the impact guard that Lavin had alluded to and we, as fans, may have been just a little misled in his talent level. However, he is also a player that once he finds the mojo that he had while in high school and learns the Lavin system, can be a surprise and pay dividends by next season. We, the jury, are still out on him. :)

Harkless and Pointer will develop into stars once their bodies fill out further because they have the natural physical attributes to go along with quickly developing skill sets. Phil also falls into that category. D'Angelo is a little further behind the learning curve like Nurideen but if he and NL ever get their heads and hearts into their game, they will be different players next year.

The fact remains Lavin needs to sign at least three top recruits for next year to continue the talent-building process. There are no days off in recruiting. Getting a 5 star by 2013 would be a must for him to put SJ in a position for a title otherwise we will forever be watching Duke, UNC and Kentucky in the Elite 8.

As far as McDonald All-Americans, SJ cannot seem to sniff one. In the past 10 years we have had 3 or 4 while Kentucky and Carolina have had 30 or 40. They do not take time off in pursuing the top 50 and neither should we. 
 

I guess you've missed what has happened in college basketball the past few seasons. I've seen several mid-major teams consistently make big noise in the "dance." I'm not even including the Butler's and VCU's of the world. So, you certainly can win with guys who aren't 4 and 5 stars. You may not win out of the gate, but you can certainly win.

Contrary to what you may believe, but most of the freshmen on our team are 4-star kids. Did you assume the majority of the kids were 3-star or less? Of course, I'd like to garner a commitment from a 5-star kid (heck, I'd like to sign as many, as possible), but it's not a "must get," in order for our team to succeed.
 
If you don't have a legit point guard- you can not win at the division I level. Harkless and Pointer are going to be very good- Gift, Harrison and Greene are nice pieces and Lindsey has no basketball IQ. Garrett is yet to be seen but watching him in high school he will not make or break us this year. Hopefully, Lavin can follow up with players on the same level as Harkless and pointer and when Mo and Dom are juniors we can make a run at the tournament.
 

SJ will never make a run at any tourney without 4 or 5 star recruits. That much we have learned from past history. This staff was specifically tasked with getting recruits to sign....not justshove us cursory interest as with Kyle Anderson. Nor were they paid their lofty salaries as coaches to bring on players with questionable academics like Pelle and Sampson, as was eluded to in Hoops Weiss article the other day. Sidiki Johnson would add to that group as players with work ethic issues.

I will not say that Lindsey has no BB IQ as suggested above but he is far from the impact guard that Lavin had alluded to and we, as fans, may have been just a little misled in his talent level. However, he is also a player that once he finds the mojo that he had while in high school and learns the Lavin system, can be a surprise and pay dividends by next season. We, the jury, are still out on him. :)

Harkless and Pointer will develop into stars once their bodies fill out further because they have the natural physical attributes to go along with quickly developing skill sets. Phil also falls into that category. D'Angelo is a little further behind the learning curve like Nurideen but if he and NL ever get their heads and hearts into their game, they will be different players next year.

The fact remains Lavin needs to sign at least three top recruits for next year to continue the talent-building process. There are no days off in recruiting. Getting a 5 star by 2013 would be a must for him to put SJ in a position for a title otherwise we will forever be watching Duke, UNC and Kentucky in the Elite 8.

As far as McDonald All-Americans, SJ cannot seem to sniff one. In the past 10 years we have had 3 or 4 while Kentucky and Carolina have had 30 or 40. They do not take time off in pursuing the top 50 and neither should we. 
 

I guess you've missed what has happened in college basketball the past few seasons. I've seen several mid-major teams consistently make big noise in the "dance." I'm not even including the Butler's and VCU's of the world. So, you certainly can win with guys who aren't 4 and 5 stars. You may not win out of the gate, but you can certainly win.

Contrary to what you may believe, but most of the freshmen on our team are 4-star kids. Did you assume the majority of the kids were 3-star or less? Of course, I'd like to garner a commitment from a 5-star kid (heck, I'd like to sign as many, as possible), but it's not a "must get," in order for our team to succeed.
 

MJ, I have not missed a thing. Do not be so amazed by a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that Butler and VCU had in the NCAA from conferences they had an easy time securing NCAA bids from. The Big East, like the ACC or Big 10, is a completely different trial by fire.
Lavin was not signed to make St. John's a VCU or a Butler! He was signed to compete with the UNC's and Uconn's on a year-in year-out basis.
We lost two of our most important 4 star players and are left with only 3 according to rating services. To maintain MSG relevance and Big East competitiveness we need at least one 4 star player every year.
I am confident Lav will do that and get Gathers back and add a surprise or two. 
 
 Besides the fact that Butler did it two years in a row it certainly looked like a once in a lifetime opportunity.
 
 Besides the fact that Butler did it two years in a row it certainly looked like a once in a lifetime opportunity.
 

I think you got my drift!
Lav was not brought here to make SJ a Butler or VCU.
Once-in-a-lifetime opportunities are a combination of a special player and unique conference affiliation that allowed the easier passage to the NCAA tourney.
The next time Butler or VCU make the "Sweet 16", I will fly out to your home, buy you a Ferrari and bring you a New York pizza. Wink.
 
Did anyone else notice Lindsey after the final gun-- he fired the ball at the ref who luckily got his hand up to block it. This is the 2nd time this season he has done that-- against N'eastern after a travel was called he fired the ball at the ref-- who actually caught it. I don't remember ever seeing that before, and now I have seen it twice in 3 games. 
 

No intent there when your on the court refs need to pay attention
 
Did anyone else notice Lindsey after the final gun-- he fired the ball at the ref who luckily got his hand up to block it. This is the 2nd time this season he has done that-- against N'eastern after a travel was called he fired the ball at the ref-- who actually caught it. I don't remember ever seeing that before, and now I have seen it twice in 3 games. 
 

No intent there when your on the court refs need to pay attention
 

True, but it WAS his best pass of the night considering he had 6 turnovers !!LOL!!
 
 Besides the fact that Butler did it two years in a row it certainly looked like a once in a lifetime opportunity.
 

I think you got my drift!
Lav was not brought here to make SJ a Butler or VCU.
Once-in-a-lifetime opportunities are a combination of a special player and unique conference affiliation that allowed the easier passage to the NCAA tourney.
The next time Butler or VCU make the "Sweet 16", I will fly out to your home, buy you a Ferrari and bring you a New York pizza. Wink.
 

Well that's pretty exciting. Butler's made 4 Sweet Sixteens in the last 9 tourneys. That's pretty good odds for me getting a Ferrari especially if Brad Stevens sticks around. I must bookmark this page.
 
SJ will never make a run at any tourney without 4 or 5 star recruits.
Wrong, as others have pointed out before I could get around to it. However, the point is moot since we have them and may well get more.
That much we have learned from past history.
Actually, what we've learned from past history is that you can't win when you have mediocre coaching, and when that is combined with mediocre players it's a disaster.
This staff was specifically tasked with getting recruits to sign....not just shove us cursory interest as with Kyle Anderson.
I'm guessing they were asked to behave honorably and win, with the assumption being that they would bring in good players to do it with. Unless you were in the room and know something specific, of course.
Nor were they paid their lofty salaries as coaches to bring on players with questionable academics like Pelle and Sampson, as was eluded to in Hoops Weiss article the other day. Sidiki Johnson would add to that group as players with work ethic issues.
It's "alluded," although that seems to have eluded you. Regrettably many good high school players have questionable academics, that's why there are prep schools. The staff had a dozen holes to fill and took some chances in doing so. Some of those didn't work out. Would you have rather they recruited "2-star" or "3-star" players who were straight A students? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I will not say that Lindsey has no BB IQ as suggested above but he is far from the impact guard that Lavin had alluded to and we, as fans, may have been just a little misled in his talent level. However, he is also a player that once he finds the mojo that he had while in high school and learns the Lavin system, can be a surprise and pay dividends by next season.
I think he has a very high basketball IQ. All he's missing is a jump shot and some experience at this level, and I'm betting that by next season he will have found both to at least some extent.
We, the jury, are still out on him. :)
.
I've picked juries. I wouldn't put you on one of them.
Harkless and Pointer will develop into stars once their bodies fill out further because they have the natural physical attributes to go along with quickly developing skill sets. Phil also falls into that category. D'Angelo is a little further behind the learning curve like Nurideen but if he and NL ever get their heads and hearts into their game, they will be different players next year.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again.
The fact remains Lavin needs to sign at least three top recruits for next year to continue the talent-building process. There are no days off in recruiting. Getting a 5 star by 2013 would be a must for him to put SJ in a position for a title otherwise we will forever be watching Duke, UNC and Kentucky in the Elite 8.
Yes, Lavin takes lots of days off. The nerve of him, getting cancer and all. As for the rest of it, (1) you don't need a 5 star recruit by 2013, that's just silly. Expecting a title by 2013 is silly, too. And thinking that you aren't going to be looking at Duke, UNC, and Kentucky in the Elite 8 (at least for as long as Coach K keeps coaching, Roy Williams stays at UNC, and Calipari doesn't get caught or skip town like he always does), is just silly too. Those teams are always going to be there. It took them decades to build that status. But it's nice of you to give Coach Lavin a one-year deadline to match them. No pressure.
As far as McDonald All-Americans, SJ cannot seem to sniff one. In the past 10 years we have had 3 or 4 while Kentucky and Carolina have had 30 or 40. They do not take time off in pursuing the top 50 and neither should we. 
 
I think as a matter of fact we have had 1 in the past 10 years, Elijah Ingram in 2002. The one before that was Omar Cook in 2000. However, if you want to talk about the history of St. John's recruits, the current recruiting class (including the ineligibles), has St. John's 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th ranked recruits since 1998. In other words, this staff has recruited HALF of SJU's top 10 high school players in the last dozen years. If you throw in Polee and Garrett, they have recruited (in two years) half of the top 14 SJU recruits in the past dozen years. Here's a reference: http://statsheet.com/mcb/teams/st-johns/recruiting#mcdonalds
But you're right, Lavin & Co. are lazy, are not getting good enough players, and need to get their butts back out there ASAP. Maybe you can help out, I'm sure they could use somebody to carry the suitcases and wash the bugs off of the windshield when they stop for gas.
 
 Besides the fact that Butler did it two years in a row it certainly looked like a once in a lifetime opportunity.
 

I think you got my drift!
Lav was not brought here to make SJ a Butler or VCU.
Once-in-a-lifetime opportunities are a combination of a special player and unique conference affiliation that allowed the easier passage to the NCAA tourney.
The next time Butler or VCU make the "Sweet 16", I will fly out to your home, buy you a Ferrari and bring you a New York pizza. Wink.
 

Well that's pretty exciting. Butler's made 4 Sweet Sixteens in the last 9 tourneys. That's pretty good odds for me getting a Ferrari especially if Brad Stevens sticks around. I must bookmark this page.
 

The Green , Howard, Heyward years are over my friend.
They were special players.
Brad Stevens is a coach that can punch his ticket to most schools but he has a "Duke Quality" about him. Imlove him as a coach.
 
Did anyone else notice Lindsey after the final gun-- he fired the ball at the ref who luckily got his hand up to block it. This is the 2nd time this season he has done that-- against N'eastern after a travel was called he fired the ball at the ref-- who actually caught it. I don't remember ever seeing that before, and now I have seen it twice in 3 games. 
 

No intent there when your on the court refs need to pay attention
 

True, but it WAS his best pass of the night considering he had 6 turnovers !!LOL!!
  problem is he penetrates into traffic and does not dish. He is going into the middle with very talented 6-9 6-10- plus players When he penetrates his team mates should follow awaiting a pass Most times they are just watching Does not help much He has to takes 5oo jump shots and 500 foul shots per day Looks like he could have a nice strke
 
 Besides the fact that Butler did it two years in a row it certainly looked like a once in a lifetime opportunity.
 

I think you got my drift!
Lav was not brought here to make SJ a Butler or VCU.
Once-in-a-lifetime opportunities are a combination of a special player and unique conference affiliation that allowed the easier passage to the NCAA tourney.
The next time Butler or VCU make the "Sweet 16", I will fly out to your home, buy you a Ferrari and bring you a New York pizza. Wink.
 

Well that's pretty exciting. Butler's made 4 Sweet Sixteens in the last 9 tourneys. That's pretty good odds for me getting a Ferrari especially if Brad Stevens sticks around. I must bookmark this page.
 

The Green , Howard, Heyward years are over my friend.
They were special players.
Brad Stevens is a coach that can punch his ticket to most schools but he has a "Duke Quality" about him. Imlove him as a coach.
 

That's cool. I guess the fact that every player that has stayed four years since the freshman class of 99/00 has made it to the sweet sixteen at least once is a bit of a fluke. Their AD has shown, since he retired from coaching himself, to be pretty astute at picking coaches from Thad Matta to Lickliter to Stevens. I'd trust his track record with the next one if/when Stevens leaves as well.
 
 Besides the fact that Butler did it two years in a row it certainly looked like a once in a lifetime opportunity.
 

I think you got my drift!
Lav was not brought here to make SJ a Butler or VCU.
Once-in-a-lifetime opportunities are a combination of a special player and unique conference affiliation that allowed the easier passage to the NCAA tourney.
The next time Butler or VCU make the "Sweet 16", I will fly out to your home, buy you a Ferrari and bring you a New York pizza. Wink.
 

Well that's pretty exciting. Butler's made 4 Sweet Sixteens in the last 9 tourneys. That's pretty good odds for me getting a Ferrari especially if Brad Stevens sticks around. I must bookmark this page.
 

The Green , Howard, Heyward years are over my friend.
They were special players.
Brad Stevens is a coach that can punch his ticket to most schools but he has a "Duke Quality" about him. Imlove him as a coach.
 

That's cool. I guess the fact that every player that has stayed four years since the freshman class of 99/00 has made it to the sweet sixteen at least once is a bit of a fluke. Their AD has shown, since he retired from coaching himself, to be pretty astute at picking coaches from Thad Matta to Lickliter to Stevens. I'd trust his track record with the next one if/when Stevens leaves as well.
 

I am sure you meant making it to the NCAA since 3 of the 4 times they made the sweet 16 in this millenia have been since 2007 with the three special players I referenced but whose counting?
Yes, BU stays close to their Hoosier roots when it comes to coaches and they have certainly had a much better track record than us!

Funny you mention their NCAA appearances during the redmen dark ages since 1999. prior to that they had almost no post season history. While Looie and SJ were going to 25 NCAA appearances during the 60s, 70's and 80's, Butler's last appearance was in 1962 or so.
Sorry Austour, just re-read your post, you are correct if you want to count freshmen since 2000. My bad!
 
 Yes, don't forget the 2003 Sweet Sixteen. I'm pretty sure you'll be delivering me a Ferrari before the end of this decade. ; )
 
 I'm not so sure Lindsey is a "system" type of ballplayer. He's dangerous in the open court and after set plays break down but in the half court set he's pretty ordinary. If we're not going to rebound his value goes down. If we can get Garrett and Pointer at the top of the sone we should be able to create a bit of chaos which Nuri needs to succeed but working the ball for 25+ seconds really limits our options. Our zone is porous in the corners and doesn't produce the steals man would. We've got to play uglier and more uptempo on offense.
 
If you don't have a legit point guard- you can not win at the division I level. Harkless and Pointer are going to be very good- Gift, Harrison and Greene are nice pieces and Lindsey has no basketball IQ. Garrett is yet to be seen but watching him in high school he will not make or break us this year. Hopefully, Lavin can follow up with players on the same level as Harkless and pointer and when Mo and Dom are juniors we can make a run at the tournament.
 

Most teams seem to have a couple of PGs. We really don't have one and haven't since Barkley. We're lost against small guys with quickness and it throws the whole zone off. No ball pressure, no steals and no boards. I say go man and revert to zone as needed. Not the other way around. These early leads are just stupid.
 
 This core of players needs to learn the zones the staff wants to implement and learn them well. This seasons the time to do it. Yes we need some more man defense but we did that against Detroit and still lost. These kids simply need to learn to become better defenders and it will take time.
 
 I'm not so sure Lindsey is a "system" type of ballplayer. He's dangerous in the open court and after set plays break down but in the half court set he's pretty ordinary. If we're not going to rebound his value goes down. If we can get Garrett and Pointer at the top of the sone we should be able to create a bit of chaos which Nuri needs to succeed but working the ball for 25+ seconds really limits our options. Our zone is porous in the corners and doesn't produce the steals man would. We've got to play uglier and more uptempo on offense.
 

He is a driver scorer but since we once again have no outside shooting to open a zone up he becomes irrelevent because opposing zones just pack it down on us and clog it up thus causing him to draw offensive fouls He needs to develop a 15 ft jumper and if we had shooters everything opens up for him and he would average 15-20 per game I very rarely see us if at all set picks up for Harrisson or greene. Think Moe could develop into a big guard but for now can not see him so far away from the basket At 6-8 we need him in the blocks he is going to be a special player would like to see him put on 15 lbs
 
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