Seth Davis: "Will SJU Be Relevant Again" Response

[we are sju]

I'm not in any way a Lavin fan, but he did make us relevant again. Getting to the tourney, players showing up in the NBA draft, and winning some Big East rivalry showdowns counts for the general NCAA basketball fan...it doesn't fly for the keen follower of day to day or even game to game SJU basketball, but our name was back out there with a coach of celebrity status. I know many of us came to loathe that fact, but his time at UCLA and then in front of the camera for several years earned him that status. Next season we need to be a bubble team being talked about at the beginning of March. The "ifs" are there for next season, Brown being a pretty big one, but more important would be the transfers we don't know about and the return of our best players from the current season. This season still has legs, and the development of Ponds, Lovett, Ahmed, Yakwe and RF are keys to our future success.

I guess it depends on how you define "relevant," but IMHO the idea that St. John's has been relevant at any point in time since Marcus Hatten is laughable.

Here are the last 13 years for you:

2003–04: 6-21, 1–15 14th
2004–05: 9–18, 3–13 12th
2005–06: 12–15, 5–11 15th
2006–07: 16–15, 7–9 11th
2007–08: 11–19, 5–13 14th
2008–09: 16–18, 6–12, 13th, CBI First Round
2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round
2015–16: 8-24, 1–17 10th

I'll grant you that the Lavin Error I mean Era was the "bright spot" with a conference record 2 whole games over .500 (as compared to Norm who was 38 games under .500 in conference and Jarvis who was 4 games over).

But seriously in what world is a program that has managed to finish higher than TENTH in its conference THREE TIMES in the past thirteen years (a 5th and two 3rds) "relevant"????

If you're going by the two whole NCAA appearances (both 2nd round losses), the three NIT appearances (two first round exits and one second round) and one (gulp) first-round exit in the CBI, then I respectfully disagree. There are all sorts of programs that you wouldn't consider remotely "relevant" that have better resumes. I'm not looking it up, but if you told me that places like Iona, LIU, Monmouth, Florida Atlantic, Stephen F Austin and two dozen others have more appearances I wouldn't be one bit surprised. I'm not even including perennial basketball powers like Harvard, who are far, far more relevant that St. John's.

And it's great that Moe Harkless is playing in the NBA, but IMO one NBA player in 13 years doesn't make you relevant either.

The whole problem with St J and with the St J fan base is far too much of both are stuck in a Rocky Horror Picture Show Time Warp in which they think that 1985 was yesterday, that the whole basketball world still remembers them the way they were, and they completely fail to appreciate that it's a whole new world out there. The first step to fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one, and in this case that recognition has to include the fact that the program is totally irrelevant nationally, is largely irrelevant locally (although Chris has helped fix that), and will continue to be so until it consistently wins 20 games and goes to the NCAA tournament, and eventually makes some noise there.

When that happens, alert the media. Until then, the definition of "relevant" is highly debatable.

Amen, Seth.

2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round

If you changed the years to something in the 70's or 80's and you slipped these records under Louie's you probably wouldn't question it.

The way Jarvis era ended and followed up with the worst coach ever set us back more than anyone will admit. 7 years of sucking takes a lot out of program. Everyone says Lavin got "lazy" and maybe he did(or maybe cancer took away whatever drive he had) but if he could have maintained what he was doing he was well on his way to rivaling the "good old days" of Louie. Now we are starting over again. Hopefully it does not take another 7 years.

I really think if we can keep the two guards here and get some front court help we can be good again in a couple years. Just a matter of keeping away the prolonged rebuilds.

 

[paultzman]

NM

 

[redstorm89]

:dry:

I really hate the dorming excuse. Dorming at SJU is a good experience, it maybe a little strict but it's fine nonetheless.

Other than flyers taped to walls and mentioning on WSJU or whatever what can motivate students to attend games. Lower ticket prices or free tickets? What would make student groups attend games? Are there any rallies of support?
Are the coaches visible with the students? Are there efforts to get students to Madison Square Garden? Should there be a free student section courtside like at Cameron with incentives to be there? Who coordinates student support?
We want to hear from more students.

like others have said, winning will bring the students back. I remember during the last two years of norm Roberts, the student attendance was so poor that the school provided a metro card, two free movie tickets the AMC theater and 10 dollar gift card to the local applebees if students showed up to the game. many students would go to half of the game and leave. the school caught on and would not give the "goodies" until the game ended (usually with a loss). then during the first year during steve lavin's tenure, when we were beating Duke, UConn, etc then the students showed up. Now the MVP point system is in place. In summary, winning will bring students to the game, even ones who don't care about basketball.

 

[stjohnschris]

I'm not in any way a Lavin fan, but he did make us relevant again. Getting to the tourney, players showing up in the NBA draft, and winning some Big East rivalry showdowns counts for the general NCAA basketball fan...it doesn't fly for the keen follower of day to day or even game to game SJU basketball, but our name was back out there with a coach of celebrity status. I know many of us came to loathe that fact, but his time at UCLA and then in front of the camera for several years earned him that status. Next season we need to be a bubble team being talked about at the beginning of March. The "ifs" are there for next season, Brown being a pretty big one, but more important would be the transfers we don't know about and the return of our best players from the current season. This season still has legs, and the development of Ponds, Lovett, Ahmed, Yakwe and RF are keys to our future success.

I guess it depends on how you define "relevant," but IMHO the idea that St. John's has been relevant at any point in time since Marcus Hatten is laughable.

Here are the last 13 years for you:

2003–04: 6-21, 1–15 14th
2004–05: 9–18, 3–13 12th
2005–06: 12–15, 5–11 15th
2006–07: 16–15, 7–9 11th
2007–08: 11–19, 5–13 14th
2008–09: 16–18, 6–12, 13th, CBI First Round
2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round
2015–16: 8-24, 1–17 10th

I'll grant you that the Lavin Error I mean Era was the "bright spot" with a conference record 2 whole games over .500 (as compared to Norm who was 38 games under .500 in conference and Jarvis who was 4 games over).

But seriously in what world is a program that has managed to finish higher than TENTH in its conference THREE TIMES in the past thirteen years (a 5th and two 3rds) "relevant"????

If you're going by the two whole NCAA appearances (both 2nd round losses), the three NIT appearances (two first round exits and one second round) and one (gulp) first-round exit in the CBI, then I respectfully disagree. There are all sorts of programs that you wouldn't consider remotely "relevant" that have better resumes. I'm not looking it up, but if you told me that places like Iona, LIU, Monmouth, Florida Atlantic, Stephen F Austin and two dozen others have more appearances I wouldn't be one bit surprised. I'm not even including perennial basketball powers like Harvard, who are far, far more relevant that St. John's.

And it's great that Moe Harkless is playing in the NBA, but IMO one NBA player in 13 years doesn't make you relevant either.

The whole problem with St J and with the St J fan base is far too much of both are stuck in a Rocky Horror Picture Show Time Warp in which they think that 1985 was yesterday, that the whole basketball world still remembers them the way they were, and they completely fail to appreciate that it's a whole new world out there. The first step to fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one, and in this case that recognition has to include the fact that the program is totally irrelevant nationally, is largely irrelevant locally (although Chris has helped fix that), and will continue to be so until it consistently wins 20 games and goes to the NCAA tournament, and eventually makes some noise there.

When that happens, alert the media. Until then, the definition of "relevant" is highly debatable.

Amen, Seth.

I'm considering relevant to mean, well, relevant. Not necessarily awesome, not sweet 16 every other year, not even big east champs. Lavin's name, previous coaching accolades, and some limited success here made us relevant again, as in "back on the radar." We get to be "relevant again" because we we have a history, we were on the map for several different periods. Monmouth, SFU, Weber State, SD State Jackrabbits...you can fill in many schools with more NCAA appearances in the last 20 years, but it's history they lack, it's a narrative they lack. I believe there's a time limit to when you can pull from that history, but we're not there yet. For example, NYU and LIU. Too late to actually be relevant again, but a lot of success in their programs. We also have some prolific sports commentators in our corner. Dickie V would love to see CM and SJ succeed. St John's making the tourney is not the same as Florida Gulf Coast or Wofford. Seth Davis is not going to write about Monmouth, LIU or Harvard in December...there's no story. Albany State gets zero press until they win a tourney game. Belmont gets forgotten two weeks after they pull off a first round upset in March. We have a story line that we are all hoping plays out in a very positive way. The administration took a bold turn to make SJU basketball truly relevant again, it's simply too early to say it failed or is failing.

 

[Red.Fans]

sucks being in Limbo again for another season but I see signs of life and I won't let you all ruin my joy My Woeful Wednesdays are limited to the day following overindulging in Taco Tuesdays.

 

[TobinGrad]

The truth is that this is not the thread that should exist at this point in the season. This team should be 9-2 or 8-3 right now, with everyone fairly confident that the Johnnies are on their way back.

ODU, Del. St, LIU??? This is not a youth issue. These games should have all been easy victories. There is a critical flaw on our coaching staff and it is Mullins task to correct it...quickly. He needs assistance with defensive and big man coaching. If he does not correct these things by this offseason, its over.

If next seasons squad is not at least a bubble team, recruiting will dry up and none of the high 4 stars and 5 stars they are targeting will come. At that point they will be left scrambling for low rated kids, at which point a coaching change would have to be made because they cant win with 3 star level recruits in the BE.
It really is crunch time for Mullin. If he cant get it together by next season the window for success will close.

 

[Class of 72]

I'm not in any way a Lavin fan, but he did make us relevant again. Getting to the tourney, players showing up in the NBA draft, and winning some Big East rivalry showdowns counts for the general NCAA basketball fan...it doesn't fly for the keen follower of day to day or even game to game SJU basketball, but our name was back out there with a coach of celebrity status. I know many of us came to loathe that fact, but his time at UCLA and then in front of the camera for several years earned him that status. Next season we need to be a bubble team being talked about at the beginning of March. The "ifs" are there for next season, Brown being a pretty big one, but more important would be the transfers we don't know about and the return of our best players from the current season. This season still has legs, and the development of Ponds, Lovett, Ahmed, Yakwe and RF are keys to our future success.

I guess it depends on how you define "relevant," but IMHO the idea that St. John's has been relevant at any point in time since Marcus Hatten is laughable.

Here are the last 13 years for you:

2003–04: 6-21, 1–15 14th
2004–05: 9–18, 3–13 12th
2005–06: 12–15, 5–11 15th
2006–07: 16–15, 7–9 11th
2007–08: 11–19, 5–13 14th
2008–09: 16–18, 6–12, 13th, CBI First Round
2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round
2015–16: 8-24, 1–17 10th

I'll grant you that the Lavin Error I mean Era was the "bright spot" with a conference record 2 whole games over .500 (as compared to Norm who was 38 games under .500 in conference and Jarvis who was 4 games over).

But seriously in what world is a program that has managed to finish higher than TENTH in its conference THREE TIMES in the past thirteen years (a 5th and two 3rds) "relevant"????

If you're going by the two whole NCAA appearances (both 2nd round losses), the three NIT appearances (two first round exits and one second round) and one (gulp) first-round exit in the CBI, then I respectfully disagree. There are all sorts of programs that you wouldn't consider remotely "relevant" that have better resumes. I'm not looking it up, but if you told me that places like Iona, LIU, Monmouth, Florida Atlantic, Stephen F Austin and two dozen others have more appearances I wouldn't be one bit surprised. I'm not even including perennial basketball powers like Harvard, who are far, far more relevant that St. John's.

And it's great that Moe Harkless is playing in the NBA, but IMO one NBA player in 13 years doesn't make you relevant either.

The whole problem with St J and with the St J fan base is far too much of both are stuck in a Rocky Horror Picture Show Time Warp in which they think that 1985 was yesterday, that the whole basketball world still remembers them the way they were, and they completely fail to appreciate that it's a whole new world out there. The first step to fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one, and in this case that recognition has to include the fact that the program is totally irrelevant nationally, is largely irrelevant locally (although Chris has helped fix that), and will continue to be so until it consistently wins 20 games and goes to the NCAA tournament, and eventually makes some noise there.

When that happens, alert the media. Until then, the definition of "relevant" is highly debatable.

Amen, Seth.

2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round

If you changed the years to something in the 70's or 80's and you slipped these records under Louie's you probably wouldn't question it.

The way Jarvis era ended and followed up with the worst coach ever set us back more than anyone will admit. 7 years of sucking takes a lot out of program. Everyone says Lavin got "lazy" and maybe he did(or maybe cancer took away whatever drive he had) but if he could have maintained what he was doing he was well on his way to rivaling the "good old days" of Louie. Now we are starting over again. Hopefully it does not take another 7 years.

I really think if we can keep the two guards here and get some front court help we can be good again in a couple years. Just a matter of keeping away the prolonged rebuilds.

I agree. It's a very different picture when you remove the Roberts years.
While Lawmanfan makes some valid points he also states , "that the program is totally irrelevant nationally, is largely irrelevant locally (although Chris has helped fix that), and will continue to be so until it consistently wins 20 games and goes to the NCAA tournament".
The program did that under Lavin, like him or not. He lost out on 3 local game changers and too often put all his eggs in those baskets, hence signing preferred walk-ons, for God's sake. I will say it again, had he signed Briscoe along with Sampson and kept the rest of the commits even losing Jordan would have been just a bump. That lineup with Obekpa last year would have won 20 games. There was strong political back room dealings that led to his firing, not his record. The talk that he had lost his MOJO and was not into recruiting with his heart and soul was too much to overcome. Crazed anti-Lavin fans stalked him both on and off campus. In the end even he got tired of the bullshit.
To casually dismiss his 5 years, some in the most competitive basketball conference ever, is a diservice to the young men like Pointer, Green, Harrison that stuck with St. John's for four years. As is our history, one or two players leaving like Harkless, Sampson and Lindsey and missing out on Briscoe and Kyle Anderson altered both Lavin's career and our NCAA dreams.
Not to be outdone when it comes to drama, Mullin's era begins with the longest losing streak in history, the scandalous departure of Slice and now the release of our only center.
Hopefully the past isn't prologue again or deja vu all over again but over the past dozen years St. John's has had the weakest president and most ineffective athletic department in the Big East. It is a credit to many of the great kids that have made some teams, regardless of the coach, competitive.

 

[Ray Morgan]

I'm not in any way a Lavin fan, but he did make us relevant again. Getting to the tourney, players showing up in the NBA draft, and winning some Big East rivalry showdowns counts for the general NCAA basketball fan...it doesn't fly for the keen follower of day to day or even game to game SJU basketball, but our name was back out there with a coach of celebrity status. I know many of us came to loathe that fact, but his time at UCLA and then in front of the camera for several years earned him that status. Next season we need to be a bubble team being talked about at the beginning of March. The "ifs" are there for next season, Brown being a pretty big one, but more important would be the transfers we don't know about and the return of our best players from the current season. This season still has legs, and the development of Ponds, Lovett, Ahmed, Yakwe and RF are keys to our future success.

I guess it depends on how you define "relevant," but IMHO the idea that St. John's has been relevant at any point in time since Marcus Hatten is laughable.

Here are the last 13 years for you:

2003–04: 6-21, 1–15 14th
2004–05: 9–18, 3–13 12th
2005–06: 12–15, 5–11 15th
2006–07: 16–15, 7–9 11th
2007–08: 11–19, 5–13 14th
2008–09: 16–18, 6–12, 13th, CBI First Round
2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round
2015–16: 8-24, 1–17 10th

I'll grant you that the Lavin Error I mean Era was the "bright spot" with a conference record 2 whole games over .500 (as compared to Norm who was 38 games under .500 in conference and Jarvis who was 4 games over).

But seriously in what world is a program that has managed to finish higher than TENTH in its conference THREE TIMES in the past thirteen years (a 5th and two 3rds) "relevant"????

If you're going by the two whole NCAA appearances (both 2nd round losses), the three NIT appearances (two first round exits and one second round) and one (gulp) first-round exit in the CBI, then I respectfully disagree. There are all sorts of programs that you wouldn't consider remotely "relevant" that have better resumes. I'm not looking it up, but if you told me that places like Iona, LIU, Monmouth, Florida Atlantic, Stephen F Austin and two dozen others have more appearances I wouldn't be one bit surprised. I'm not even including perennial basketball powers like Harvard, who are far, far more relevant that St. John's.

And it's great that Moe Harkless is playing in the NBA, but IMO one NBA player in 13 years doesn't make you relevant either.

The whole problem with St J and with the St J fan base is far too much of both are stuck in a Rocky Horror Picture Show Time Warp in which they think that 1985 was yesterday, that the whole basketball world still remembers them the way they were, and they completely fail to appreciate that it's a whole new world out there. The first step to fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one, and in this case that recognition has to include the fact that the program is totally irrelevant nationally, is largely irrelevant locally (although Chris has helped fix that), and will continue to be so until it consistently wins 20 games and goes to the NCAA tournament, and eventually makes some noise there.

When that happens, alert the media. Until then, the definition of "relevant" is highly debatable.

Amen, Seth.

Relevant doesn't mean a national powerhouse, or even a team that is consistently ranked in the top 25. Those are excellent programs, not relevant.

Relevant to me means to play a tough schedule in a tough conference, and manage to compete well and win half your conference games or better.

Relevant to me means you are in a national discussion, which we were under Lavin most seasons.

Relevant means you are at or above 20 wins in most seasons. (For Lavin 3 out of 4 that he coached, and 3 out of 5 overall)

The real question is not whether SJU was relevant during that period - we were, but whether that was acceptable to those whose head isn't stuck from 1960 to 1990 or so.

IF you disagree, it's all a matter of what you call relevant.

I have no criteria for measuring relevant. I do have a measuring stick for laughable, and that's what Lavin made us at the end. The Jordan and Obekpa embarrassment, the Briscoe recruiting fiasco, the Euro tour to land Amar, and the laziness at the end. We are in a brutal cycle that began with Norm. Having plenty of playing time to offer, coupled with whatever cache being in NY and the Big East brings, yields a full class of freshman with potential. Sprinkle in a few transfers, and, by year 4, the team gets a mid level seed in the tourney. Then everyone leaves, playing time and scholarships are available, and the cycle repeats. Four years later, we sneak in the tourney, and get blown out in round 1.

The article suggests suggests targeting transfers. I don't have the answer. All I know is that this isn't working.

 

[Spruces2]

I'm not in any way a Lavin fan, but he did make us relevant again. Getting to the tourney, players showing up in the NBA draft, and winning some Big East rivalry showdowns counts for the general NCAA basketball fan...it doesn't fly for the keen follower of day to day or even game to game SJU basketball, but our name was back out there with a coach of celebrity status. I know many of us came to loathe that fact, but his time at UCLA and then in front of the camera for several years earned him that status. Next season we need to be a bubble team being talked about at the beginning of March. The "ifs" are there for next season, Brown being a pretty big one, but more important would be the transfers we don't know about and the return of our best players from the current season. This season still has legs, and the development of Ponds, Lovett, Ahmed, Yakwe and RF are keys to our future success.

I guess it depends on how you define "relevant," but IMHO the idea that St. John's has been relevant at any point in time since Marcus Hatten is laughable.

Here are the last 13 years for you:

2003–04: 6-21, 1–15 14th
2004–05: 9–18, 3–13 12th
2005–06: 12–15, 5–11 15th
2006–07: 16–15, 7–9 11th
2007–08: 11–19, 5–13 14th
2008–09: 16–18, 6–12, 13th, CBI First Round
2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round
2015–16: 8-24, 1–17 10th

I'll grant you that the Lavin Error I mean Era was the "bright spot" with a conference record 2 whole games over .500 (as compared to Norm who was 38 games under .500 in conference and Jarvis who was 4 games over).

But seriously in what world is a program that has managed to finish higher than TENTH in its conference THREE TIMES in the past thirteen years (a 5th and two 3rds) "relevant"????

If you're going by the two whole NCAA appearances (both 2nd round losses), the three NIT appearances (two first round exits and one second round) and one (gulp) first-round exit in the CBI, then I respectfully disagree. There are all sorts of programs that you wouldn't consider remotely "relevant" that have better resumes. I'm not looking it up, but if you told me that places like Iona, LIU, Monmouth, Florida Atlantic, Stephen F Austin and two dozen others have more appearances I wouldn't be one bit surprised. I'm not even including perennial basketball powers like Harvard, who are far, far more relevant that St. John's.

And it's great that Moe Harkless is playing in the NBA, but IMO one NBA player in 13 years doesn't make you relevant either.

The whole problem with St J and with the St J fan base is far too much of both are stuck in a Rocky Horror Picture Show Time Warp in which they think that 1985 was yesterday, that the whole basketball world still remembers them the way they were, and they completely fail to appreciate that it's a whole new world out there. The first step to fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one, and in this case that recognition has to include the fact that the program is totally irrelevant nationally, is largely irrelevant locally (although Chris has helped fix that), and will continue to be so until it consistently wins 20 games and goes to the NCAA tournament, and eventually makes some noise there.

When that happens, alert the media. Until then, the definition of "relevant" is highly debatable.

Amen, Seth.

Relevant doesn't mean a national powerhouse, or even a team that is consistently ranked in the top 25. Those are excellent programs, not relevant.

Relevant to me means to play a tough schedule in a tough conference, and manage to compete well and win half your conference games or better.

Relevant to me means you are in a national discussion, which we were under Lavin most seasons.

Relevant means you are at or above 20 wins in most seasons. (For Lavin 3 out of 4 that he coached, and 3 out of 5 overall)

The real question is not whether SJU was relevant during that period - we were, but whether that was acceptable to those whose head isn't stuck from 1960 to 1990 or so.

IF you disagree, it's all a matter of what you call relevant.

"Relevant to me means you are in a national discussion, which we were under Lavin most seasons."

Ehh. We were?

 

[Red.Fans]

The truth is that this is not the thread that should exist at this point in the season. This team should be 9-2 or 8-3 right now, with everyone fairly confident that the Johnnies are on their way back.

ODU, Del. St, LIU??? This is not a youth issue. These games should have all been easy victories. There is a critical flaw on our coaching staff and it is Mullins task to correct it...quickly. He needs assistance with defensive and big man coaching. If he does not correct these things by this offseason, its over.

If next seasons squad is not at least a bubble team, recruiting will dry up and none of the high 4 stars and 5 stars they are targeting will come. At that point they will be left scrambling for low rated kids, at which point a coaching change would have to be made because they cant win with 3 star level recruits in the BE.
It really is crunch time for Mullin. If he cant get it together by next season the window for success will close.

says who? We are a quality big man with good hands, away from being a very good team this season. Our first three guards are getting overplayed because opponents know they have no one to pass to inside and they are still shooting 45-50% from 3. It is definitely about the youth and inexperience of this program. Yes coaching staff is part of that inexperience but good things are happening from the recruiting to the ball movement and shooting. Even Sima went from being the worst free throw shooter on the team to over 70%. Things are improving. High level College basketball is about building a program and reloading it. Mullin came into a total shit show of years of neglect on the reloading part of things. So he is basically building a program from scratch in what is currently the #1 basketball conference in the country. We've got some great players and we've already got some answers to the missing pieces that are obvious this season. A nice grad transfer veteran to add muscle and quality interior presence and we've got a very solid team next season - not even counting Zach Brown or Diakite but long term that looks very good.

 

[monte]

This article is a bunch of regurgitated nonsense. Seth must be desperate. We're one good HC away from being a consistent tourney team, AKA relevant. Lavin could have easily been that guy, but he was Lavin. Hoping Chris is that guy, but if he's not there's no damn way I'm throwing in the towel on this program!!!!! That is, unless the administration throws in the towel.

 

[Ray Morgan]

SJU needs to bring back the stipend. Easy enough. Hire a Florida company that does mold remediation. They will send an inspector who will find that dangerous black mold permeated the walls in each dorm room. These guys would claim they found mold in the Sahara. Boarder the dorms up, and start handing out the stipend checks. We will be relevant in no time.

 

[austour]

I'm not in any way a Lavin fan, but he did make us relevant again. Getting to the tourney, players showing up in the NBA draft, and winning some Big East rivalry showdowns counts for the general NCAA basketball fan...it doesn't fly for the keen follower of day to day or even game to game SJU basketball, but our name was back out there with a coach of celebrity status. I know many of us came to loathe that fact, but his time at UCLA and then in front of the camera for several years earned him that status. Next season we need to be a bubble team being talked about at the beginning of March. The "ifs" are there for next season, Brown being a pretty big one, but more important would be the transfers we don't know about and the return of our best players from the current season. This season still has legs, and the development of Ponds, Lovett, Ahmed, Yakwe and RF are keys to our future success.

I guess it depends on how you define "relevant," but IMHO the idea that St. John's has been relevant at any point in time since Marcus Hatten is laughable.

Here are the last 13 years for you:

2003–04: 6-21, 1–15 14th
2004–05: 9–18, 3–13 12th
2005–06: 12–15, 5–11 15th
2006–07: 16–15, 7–9 11th
2007–08: 11–19, 5–13 14th
2008–09: 16–18, 6–12, 13th, CBI First Round
2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round
2015–16: 8-24, 1–17 10th

I'll grant you that the Lavin Error I mean Era was the "bright spot" with a conference record 2 whole games over .500 (as compared to Norm who was 38 games under .500 in conference and Jarvis who was 4 games over).

But seriously in what world is a program that has managed to finish higher than TENTH in its conference THREE TIMES in the past thirteen years (a 5th and two 3rds) "relevant"????

If you're going by the two whole NCAA appearances (both 2nd round losses), the three NIT appearances (two first round exits and one second round) and one (gulp) first-round exit in the CBI, then I respectfully disagree. There are all sorts of programs that you wouldn't consider remotely "relevant" that have better resumes. I'm not looking it up, but if you told me that places like Iona, LIU, Monmouth, Florida Atlantic, Stephen F Austin and two dozen others have more appearances I wouldn't be one bit surprised. I'm not even including perennial basketball powers like Harvard, who are far, far more relevant that St. John's.

And it's great that Moe Harkless is playing in the NBA, but IMO one NBA player in 13 years doesn't make you relevant either.

The whole problem with St J and with the St J fan base is far too much of both are stuck in a Rocky Horror Picture Show Time Warp in which they think that 1985 was yesterday, that the whole basketball world still remembers them the way they were, and they completely fail to appreciate that it's a whole new world out there. The first step to fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one, and in this case that recognition has to include the fact that the program is totally irrelevant nationally, is largely irrelevant locally (although Chris has helped fix that), and will continue to be so until it consistently wins 20 games and goes to the NCAA tournament, and eventually makes some noise there.

When that happens, alert the media. Until then, the definition of "relevant" is highly debatable.

Amen, Seth.

2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round

If you changed the years to something in the 70's or 80's and you slipped these records under Louie's you probably wouldn't question it.

The way Jarvis era ended and followed up with the worst coach ever set us back more than anyone will admit. 7 years of sucking takes a lot out of program. Everyone says Lavin got "lazy" and maybe he did(or maybe cancer took away whatever drive he had) but if he could have maintained what he was doing he was well on his way to rivaling the "good old days" of Louie. Now we are starting over again. Hopefully it does not take another 7 years.

I really think if we can keep the two guards here and get some front court help we can be good again in a couple years. Just a matter of keeping away the prolonged rebuilds.

First to LMF, it's pretty disingenuous to take Lavin's 4 post season appearances in 5 years and include them with the 2 post season appearances the previous 10 years to say how all the recent coaches sucked because they only made 6 post season appearances in 15 years.

But to flip the coin and to WASJU's point, Lavin's record doesn't compare with Louies at all either.

Louie made the dance 14 of his last 16 years and 2 nits. I guess if Lavin stayed and made the dance the next 12 years we could compare them.

Also Louie's teams were ranked at some point 15 of those 16 years including 6 post season rankings, Lavin has 2 and 1 in five years.

Event the worst 5 year stretch for Louie included 1 NIT title, 1 first round loss and 3 2nd round losses.

No comparison.

Present coaches that compare to Louie's old accomplishments, meaning guys who dance a lot with spotty success, would include guys like Huggy Bear, Mike Brey, Rick Barnes, or JTIII before last year's debacle.*

 

[McGarry2]

SJU needs to bring back the stipend. Easy enough. Hire a Florida company that does mold remediation. They will send an inspector who will find that dangerous black mold permeated the walls in each dorm room. These guys would claim they found mold in the Sahara. Boarder the dorms up, and start handing out the stipend checks. We will be relevant in no time.

Been told that SJU could utilize the stipend based upon relationship between size of student body and available capacity for lodging. Have no idea if this is so and if so what % qualifies.

 

[Ray Morgan]

SJU needs to bring back the stipend. Easy enough. Hire a Florida company that does mold remediation. They will send an inspector who will find that dangerous black mold permeated the walls in each dorm room. These guys would claim they found mold in the Sahara. Boarder the dorms up, and start handing out the stipend checks. We will be relevant in no time.

Been told that SJU could utilize the stipend based upon relationship between size of student body and available capacity for lodging. Have no idea if this is so and if so what % qualifies.

Sounds like a good story to look into. If true, then find out who is keeping the stipend out of the recruiting picture.

 

[austour]

SJU needs to bring back the stipend. Easy enough. Hire a Florida company that does mold remediation. They will send an inspector who will find that dangerous black mold permeated the walls in each dorm room. These guys would claim they found mold in the Sahara. Boarder the dorms up, and start handing out the stipend checks. We will be relevant in no time.

Been told that SJU could utilize the stipend based upon relationship between size of student body and available capacity for lodging. Have no idea if this is so and if so what % qualifies.

Sounds like a good story to look into. If true, then find out who is keeping the stipend out of the recruiting picture.

I've heard the same in the past. Harrington wanted all players to live on campus after Pittsburgh, which took the stipend out of play. Not sure how it's evolved since then.

 

[OLV72]

The guys writes that the program should not live in the past and then brings up the stipend?

It's not about the stipend....unless we're talking about the stipend that Kentucky pays.

I do agree with the point on transfers. Our coaches obviously do as well. I never understood why Norm never had a transfer pipeline like Louie and most coaches used here.

 

[bamafan]

The guys writes that the program should not live in the past and then brings up the stipend?

It's not about the stipend....unless we're talking about the stipend that Kentucky pays.

I do agree with the point on transfers. Our coaches obviously do as well. I never understood why Norm never had a transfer pipeline like Louie and most coaches used here.

So I guess we can say to Seth: It's not about the stipend stupid.

 

[lawmanfan]

Just to be clear, my post was not aimed at throwing dirt on Lavin. Although I was never a fan of his, either before he was hired or during his time here, I have no interest in debating the relative merits (or lack thereof) of his tenure. It was what it was, and it's over now.

I also was not saying that the program is dead and will never rise again. It might, and it might under Chris. That book is not fully written yet, and there is at least a little bit of promise in the parts that have.

All I was pointing out, as somebody who has watched a lot of college basketball for a long time, and who follows college basketball news to a fair extent, is that St John's has been off the national radar screen pretty much since the Elite 8 team. No argument that there were a few articles and some of the older announcers found the chance to talk about the old glory days of St John's when we made a couple of short guest appearances in the NCAA tournament. But then, they find something to say about EVERY team that makes the NCAA tournament, that's their job.

That doesn't meet my definition of "relevant," but as I said, YMMV.

 

[we are sju]

I'm not in any way a Lavin fan, but he did make us relevant again. Getting to the tourney, players showing up in the NBA draft, and winning some Big East rivalry showdowns counts for the general NCAA basketball fan...it doesn't fly for the keen follower of day to day or even game to game SJU basketball, but our name was back out there with a coach of celebrity status. I know many of us came to loathe that fact, but his time at UCLA and then in front of the camera for several years earned him that status. Next season we need to be a bubble team being talked about at the beginning of March. The "ifs" are there for next season, Brown being a pretty big one, but more important would be the transfers we don't know about and the return of our best players from the current season. This season still has legs, and the development of Ponds, Lovett, Ahmed, Yakwe and RF are keys to our future success.

I guess it depends on how you define "relevant," but IMHO the idea that St. John's has been relevant at any point in time since Marcus Hatten is laughable.

Here are the last 13 years for you:

2003–04: 6-21, 1–15 14th
2004–05: 9–18, 3–13 12th
2005–06: 12–15, 5–11 15th
2006–07: 16–15, 7–9 11th
2007–08: 11–19, 5–13 14th
2008–09: 16–18, 6–12, 13th, CBI First Round
2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round
2015–16: 8-24, 1–17 10th

I'll grant you that the Lavin Error I mean Era was the "bright spot" with a conference record 2 whole games over .500 (as compared to Norm who was 38 games under .500 in conference and Jarvis who was 4 games over).

But seriously in what world is a program that has managed to finish higher than TENTH in its conference THREE TIMES in the past thirteen years (a 5th and two 3rds) "relevant"????

If you're going by the two whole NCAA appearances (both 2nd round losses), the three NIT appearances (two first round exits and one second round) and one (gulp) first-round exit in the CBI, then I respectfully disagree. There are all sorts of programs that you wouldn't consider remotely "relevant" that have better resumes. I'm not looking it up, but if you told me that places like Iona, LIU, Monmouth, Florida Atlantic, Stephen F Austin and two dozen others have more appearances I wouldn't be one bit surprised. I'm not even including perennial basketball powers like Harvard, who are far, far more relevant that St. John's.

And it's great that Moe Harkless is playing in the NBA, but IMO one NBA player in 13 years doesn't make you relevant either.

The whole problem with St J and with the St J fan base is far too much of both are stuck in a Rocky Horror Picture Show Time Warp in which they think that 1985 was yesterday, that the whole basketball world still remembers them the way they were, and they completely fail to appreciate that it's a whole new world out there. The first step to fixing a problem is recognizing that there is one, and in this case that recognition has to include the fact that the program is totally irrelevant nationally, is largely irrelevant locally (although Chris has helped fix that), and will continue to be so until it consistently wins 20 games and goes to the NCAA tournament, and eventually makes some noise there.

When that happens, alert the media. Until then, the definition of "relevant" is highly debatable.

Amen, Seth.

2009–10: 17–16, 6–12 13th NIT First Round
2010–11: 21–12, 12–6 T-3rd NCAA Second Round
2011–12: 13-19, 6–12 T-11th
2012–13: 17–16, 8–10 10th NIT Second Round
2013–14: 20–13, 10–8 T-3rd NIT First Round
2014–15: 21–12, 10–8 5th NCAA Second Round

If you changed the years to something in the 70's or 80's and you slipped these records under Louie's you probably wouldn't question it.

The way Jarvis era ended and followed up with the worst coach ever set us back more than anyone will admit. 7 years of sucking takes a lot out of program. Everyone says Lavin got "lazy" and maybe he did(or maybe cancer took away whatever drive he had) but if he could have maintained what he was doing he was well on his way to rivaling the "good old days" of Louie. Now we are starting over again. Hopefully it does not take another 7 years.

I really think if we can keep the two guards here and get some front court help we can be good again in a couple years. Just a matter of keeping away the prolonged rebuilds.

First to LMF, it's pretty disingenuous to take Lavin's 4 post season appearances in 5 years and include them with the 2 post season appearances the previous 10 years to say how all the recent coaches sucked because they only made 6 post season appearances in 15 years.

But to flip the coin and to WASJU's point, Lavin's record doesn't compare with Louies at all either.

Louie made the dance 14 of his last 16 years and 2 nits. I guess if Lavin stayed and made the dance the next 12 years we could compare them.

Also Louie's teams were ranked at some point 15 of those 16 years including 6 post season rankings, Lavin has 2 and 1 in five years.

Event the worst 5 year stretch for Louie included 1 NIT title, 1 first round loss and 3 2nd round losses.

No comparison.

Present coaches that compare to Louie's old accomplishments, meaning guys who dance a lot with spotty success, would include guys like Huggy Bear, Mike Brey, Rick Barnes, or JTIII before last year's debacle.*

Just meant if you looked at the records. Play more games now and such but the win totals were not that far off. My point was we weren't winning 30 games a year and going to Final 4 every year like some seem to think. I am not a Lavin guy but we have clearly had worse times than his