Roster Turnover

[room112]

To me this appears to be a perfect "storm" of events occurring, and unfortunately CMA is in the wrong place at the wrong time. Had there been no sit out rule for transfers two years ago, who is to say that Roberts, Earlington, Caraher and Williams wouldn't have immediately bolted once the coaching staff who recruited them here was fired? Instead, it made more sense to stick around, because sitting out a year isn't appealing to most. Now they really have little to lose by leaving. 

Now as far as the two JUCO's, I definitely hold that against the staff. There clearly were some personality issues that weren't vetted out in advance. 

 

[lawmanfan]

how on earth are we going to fill 7 slots?


 

Five slots, and honestly I don't care if it's only three, just so everyone stays relatively happy.

Igiehon is seeming pretty realistic, so that's one less spot to fill. 

 

This is correct.  We have at least 7, and probably 8 players in the barn for next year:  Posh, Wusu, Smith, Pinzon, Traore, Stanley, Nyiwe and I'm assuming Julian.  Obviously Julian is a huge piece of the puzzle.

But if that's the core you're starting with, you need to add a couple of bigs (Igehion plus one?) and another shooter to have a complete roster.

After that the challenge for the staff will be getting them all together and off the ground earlier in the season to avoid a slow start.

 

[Amaseinyourface]

Unfortunately that is not even close to a tope tier BE roster.  Most of those players are not even remotely ready to play big minutes and excel at this level.  If they are forced to play a lot it will be a long year. They need 3-4 BE ready talent added in the next few weeks/months.  I assume thru the portal or perhaps a decommitted prep player.  Let's see what happens when the smoke clears.

Remember they won 10 league games and by most standards overachieved and that was not good enough to make NCAA's.  Was not even good enough to get in the next 4 out.  That means the roster needs to be upgraded.  But this can be an opportunity to upgrade.

lawmanfan post=429306

Windy City Johnny Fan said:
how on earth are we going to fill 7 slots?




 

This is correct.  We have at least 7, and probably 8 players in the barn for next year:  Posh, Wusu, Smith, Pinzon, Traore, Stanley, Nyiwe and I'm assuming Julian.  Obviously Julian is a huge piece of the puzzle.

But if that's the core you're starting with, you need to add a couple of bigs (Igehion plus one?) and another shooter to have a complete roster.

After that the challenge for the staff will be getting them all together and off the ground earlier in the season to avoid a slow start.

I think we had plenty of opportunity to upgrade the roster without the two most recent departures. Losing them doesn’t mean next seasons in shambles, but it does mean we have a bigger hill to climb.

 

[MakingPlays]

Unfortunately that is not even close to a tope tier BE roster.  Most of those players are not even remotely ready to play big minutes and excel at this level.  If they are forced to play a lot it will be a long year. They need 3-4 BE ready talent added in the next few weeks/months.  I assume thru the portal or perhaps a decommitted prep player.  Let's see what happens when the smoke clears.

Remember they won 10 league games and by most standards overachieved and that was not good enough to make NCAA's.  Was not even good enough to get in the next 4 out.  That means the roster needs to be upgraded.  But this can be an opportunity to upgrade.
 

I disagree I think Champ, Posh, Smith, and Wusu alone are good enough to win at least 8-9 Big East games even if you put nothing but 2 and 3 star high school players around them.  You're forgetting the jump players make from year to year.  Champ will arguably be the best player in the conference and a projected draft pick, Posh will arguably the best PG in the conference and best defender, Wusu should compete for most improved and should have a big year, and then you're adding Smith who averaged 13 PPG on a program that beat St. John's two years ago and has played in the NCAA tournament, he's proven he can put up big numbers against P6 teams.  

As long as Champ and Posh return I don't see the pre-season polls picking St. John's outside of the top 5 in the conference and the Big East should be a 5-6 bid league every year, last year was an anomaly, you mentioned 10 conference wins not being enough and the reason before that is because several teams in the conference had multiple covid pauses and didn't play many non-conference games so there was no way to boost their NET and they brought bad NETs to conference play when in fact they weren't as bad as their ranking.  Other conferences like the Big 10, the vast majority of their teams played their allotted number of non-conference games, that's why they got so many teams in.  

 

[QueensBall]

Unfortunately that is not even close to a tope tier BE roster.  Most of those players are not even remotely ready to play big minutes and excel at this level.  If they are forced to play a lot it will be a long year. They need 3-4 BE ready talent added in the next few weeks/months.  I assume thru the portal or perhaps a decommitted prep player.  Let's see what happens when the smoke clears.

Remember they won 10 league games and by most standards overachieved and that was not good enough to make NCAA's.  Was not even good enough to get in the next 4 out.  That means the roster needs to be upgraded.  But this can be an opportunity to upgrade.

 

I disagree I think Champ, Posh, Smith, and Wusu alone are good enough to win at least 8-9 Big East games even if you put nothing but 2 and 3 star high school players around them.  You're forgetting the jump players make from year to year.  Champ will arguably be the best player in the conference and a projected draft pick, Posh will arguably the best PG in the conference and best defender, Wusu should compete for most improved and should have a big year, and then you're adding Smith who averaged 13 PPG on a program that beat St. John's two years ago and has played in the NCAA tournament, he's proven he can put up big numbers against P6 teams.  

As long as Champ and Posh return I don't see the pre-season polls picking St. John's outside of the top 5 in the conference and the Big East should be a 5-6 bid league every year, last year was an anomaly, you mentioned 10 conference wins not being enough and the reason before that is because several teams in the conference had multiple covid pauses and didn't play many non-conference games so there was no way to boost their NET and they brought bad NETs to conference play when in fact they weren't as bad as their ranking.  Other conferences like the Big 10, the vast majority of their teams played their allotted number of non-conference games, that's why they got so many teams in.  

I mostly agree with this. I think as long as Posh and Champagnie come back (I realize that's not a guarantee) this team will be competitive and in the mix in the Big East. Earlington, Williams and Moore were not bad players. Ideally they'd be retained and added to. Losing them hurts depth but all 3 of those guys aren't anywhere near as important to the success of this team as the first two. The rest of last season's roster aside from these 5 (and Wusu & Dunn) shouldn't really be seeing many minutes at this level.

Some players are just different. There was a clear difference to me in Posh and Champagnie from everyone else on the roster. They're both going to have a chance to be All Conference next year. There's a significant drop after them in terms of how much guys tangibly impacted the game. I'm basing this off what we've actually seen with our own eyes. There's a reason these are the two guys who won an armful of awards and why they're the only two of our players that fans of opposing teams talk about.

The staff has their work cut out for them and they'll be judged harshly if they can't put together a roster. I see this as an opportunity. This roster needed an upgrade. If it didn't these guys would all be coming back because Anderson would promise them all the playing time they could handle.

 

 

[Jack Williams]

This is gonna be a long summer because posters are obviously attached to Greg, Earl, Moore, etc. because we got to watch them closely playing for us. 

Meaning, there’s no way anyone’s gonna think these transfers are upgrades until the season actually starts and they get a chance to prove themselves. 

so add that up and you get a long summer of hell on redmen.com 

 

[Amaseinyourface]

This is gonna be a long summer because posters are obviously attached to Greg, Earl, Moore, etc. because we got to watch them closely playing for us. 

Meaning, there’s no way anyone’s gonna think these transfers are upgrades until the season actually starts and they get a chance to prove themselves. 

so add that up and you get a long summer of hell on redmen.com 

Trust me, St. John’s fans will have zero problem convincing themselves about recruits coming in.

 

[Jack Williams]

This is gonna be a long summer because posters are obviously attached to Greg, Earl, Moore, etc. because we got to watch them closely playing for us. 

Meaning, there’s no way anyone’s gonna think these transfers are upgrades until the season actually starts and they get a chance to prove themselves. 

so add that up and you get a long summer of hell on redmen.com 

Trust me, St. John’s fans will have zero problem convincing themselves about recruits coming in.

hahaha touché...

that reminds me did Orlando Sanchez ever make the NBA? I could’ve sworn....

 

[IDRAFT]

Making Plays post=429593

Last word on Smith. Promise. I don't consider my opinion of him negative, but I understand that depends on perspective. 
I thought maybe that folks on a St. Johns message board might want to know what a person who has seen him play a number of times thinks. Again - sorry. 

And I'm a fan of the program and don't want to spend any more time defending the more negative side of a player evaluation. For all of you who think he is the next big thing - in the end I want you folks to be correct.

Carry on, and I will get out of the way.



 

Who said he was the next big thing?  I was commenting on your comment about him not bringing anything new to the table and how you were still waiting on the staff to find an upgrade over the guys that left.

My whole point is you said you said you seen him as a Dunn replacement but not an upgrade over Dunn.  What facts do you have that makes you certain of that?  Because Smith outproduced Dunn at the mid-major level on a better team and he played well against P6 competition, when Dunn struggled against P6 competition at the mid-major level.  He may very well be a bust at the P6 level on a night to night basis, but to say he doesn't bring anything different and to automatically say he's not an upgrade without seeing him play at this level is very premature.  I understand he didn't wow you in the games you seen, but as the saying goes... numbers don't lie, and his numbers were extremely solid on a very good team, I don't care what league you are in you're program is pretty good if you're consistently winning 25+ games a season.

I'm not certain of anything. I gave an opinion and gave my rationale. Like you did with the Arkansas transfer. Which I respect as you have seen him play a lot and I feel like you know the game. You don't respect my opinion. Trust me I've got it. 

No issue!

Have a nice day.

 

[MakingPlays]

Making Plays post=429593

Last word on Smith. Promise. I don't consider my opinion of him negative, but I understand that depends on perspective. 
I thought maybe that folks on a St. Johns message board might want to know what a person who has seen him play a number of times thinks. Again - sorry. 

And I'm a fan of the program and don't want to spend any more time defending the more negative side of a player evaluation. For all of you who think he is the next big thing - in the end I want you folks to be correct.

Carry on, and I will get out of the way.






 

Who said he was the next big thing?  I was commenting on your comment about him not bringing anything new to the table and how you were still waiting on the staff to find an upgrade over the guys that left.

My whole point is you said you said you seen him as a Dunn replacement but not an upgrade over Dunn.  What facts do you have that makes you certain of that?  Because Smith outproduced Dunn at the mid-major level on a better team and he played well against P6 competition, when Dunn struggled against P6 competition at the mid-major level.  He may very well be a bust at the P6 level on a night to night basis, but to say he doesn't bring anything different and to automatically say he's not an upgrade without seeing him play at this level is very premature.  I understand he didn't wow you in the games you seen, but as the saying goes... numbers don't lie, and his numbers were extremely solid on a very good team, I don't care what league you are in you're program is pretty good if you're consistently winning 25+ games a season.

I'm not certain of anything. I gave an opinion and gave my rationale. Like you did with the Arkansas transfer. Which I respect as you have seen him play a lot and I feel like you know the game. You don't respect my opinion. Trust me I've got it. 

No issue!

Have a nice day.

Understood, and you have a nice day as well. And I apologize if I'm coming off a little hostile,  I respect your opinion as well, this new transfer rule has me pissed off a little bit, my favorite teams losing key players has me real defensive right now.  My wife told me to log off all social media because one more transfer and I might lose it.

 

[Mullins Revenge]

Theres 2 stories here and someone needs to investigate and write it.

1- CMA and staff realized they couldnt go any farther with these players then they did this year.  And the players were told its probably in their best interest to move on.

2- There are some serious issues going on behind the scenes.  And its not simple jealousy of posh and champy.

One of these beat guys needs to do their research and tell us what happened here.  This is a mass exodus of core players.  Something is wrong.

 

 

[guinness77]

Theres 2 stories here and someone needs to investigate and write it.

1- CMA and staff realized they couldnt go any farther with these players then they did this year.  And the players were told its probably in their best interest to move on.

2- There are some serious issues going on behind the scenes.  And its not simple jealousy of posh and champy.

One of these beat guys needs to do their research and tell us what happened here.  This is a mass exodus of core players.  Something is wrong.


 

I wouldn’t hold your breath on either of your issues. If these things are, in fact true, they’re not leaving the locker room.

 

[boo haarvey]

Theres 2 stories here and someone needs to investigate and write it.

1- CMA and staff realized they couldnt go any farther with these players then they did this year.  And the players were told its probably in their best interest to move on.

2- There are some serious issues going on behind the scenes.  And its not simple jealousy of posh and champy.

One of these beat guys needs to do their research and tell us what happened here.  This is a mass exodus of core players.  Something is wrong.


Here's my take.  I think it's a combination of the following factors:  (1) the ease of transferring given the new rule; (2) the fact that  the program/school is not particularly desirable/prestigious at the moment; and (3) perhaps some discord among the kids. 

If it were up to the staff, I think they would have happily kept most of these kids, including Dunn. 
We were clearly on the upswing.  As Zach pointed out, if our core returned and we added a big man, we were projected to be a Top 25 team next year.

We now face some really significant challenges.  As a number of posters pointed out, CMA is a system coach who plays a lot of guys and tends to recruit kids who he can develop to fit the system.  I think that's going to be challenging in the new environment.  In order to win, we're going to need to recruit immediate impact kids in the transfer market.  The era of the solid four year player is sadly dead.

I was pleasantly surprised last year so I'm doing my best to keep an open mind.  By all indications, the staff is working extremely hard.  If Champagnie comes back, and we hit on a few solid transfers, I think we could still have a strong showing next year. 

That said, it's disheartening to lose so many kids.  I really enjoy watching these kids grow and develop together.  Despite his flaws, Dunn was my favorite player.  I wish the best for him, but reading about him hitting the portal is a blow.  It seemed like he loved the program and he was getting tons of minutes.  Surely the staff would have taken him back in a heartbeat?  Why would he want to play elsewhere?  Headscratching.


 

 

[Wolfie]

I admit I'm concerned about the mass exodus from our team and it may in fact impact results next year given CMA's unusual system. We've lost 6 key guys, including Dunn who is indeed a headscratcher, who played a total of 122 mpg in a game that totals 200 minutes.
Reasons? In my view, the new transfer freebie gets 60% of the 'blame' for our predicament, reduced PT for everyone of these guys for sure except GW and Moore gets 30%, and the 'jealousy' factor gets say 10%.
I don't believe for a second it's CMA that has driven this exodus, but should Julian transfer my theory blows up in my face.
I do think the Staff faces a critical challenge to recruit solid - plus players in order to have a chance of preserving any reasonable expectations of a good season.
And I believe they're working non-stop to do that.
Let's hope they succeed. 
Lets go johnnies!
 

 

[ErickTheRed]

I hate losing the three would be seniors, core players and great kids...together they were about 20pts 8-10 rebounds. Hopefully newcomers and transfers will make up the difference and then some. Plus balance out the roster. 

 

[monte]

My expectation from day one was that this staff would bring stability/continuity to the program, and gradually increase the talent level as time went on. While some of you may excuse the mass defections as a "sign of the times", they are unequivocally extraordinary even by current college basketball standards. Those who can't see that simply don't want to see that. So as of now, there is no stability and very little continuity. That leaves increasing the talent level. How many of you guys actually think that the staff is going to go out and refill the roster with  players that are subjectively and substantially better then those who left? Because if we hope to be better next year, we are going to need substantially better players. Especially since the old players already knew the system. So far we've picked up 2 solid pieces, but no one what will move the needle very much, if at all. I think that the staff will grab a few more solid pieces, but no one that is going to be much of an upgrade over what we lost, no matter what kind of spin some of you guys put on it. So, at this point, I'll sit back and wait and  hope for the best. What choice do any of us have? 

 

[JohnnyFan]

I am obviously most disappointed to lose GWill and hope we can bring in a strong shooting two guard/wing/tweener.  I know many people are very high on Wusu and I, too, thought he had a surprisingly good freshman year.  That said, if Wusu is going to play 25 or more minutes a game, he has to improve (a lot).  

He needs to quit the unecessary fouls and turnovers, learn to move his feet a little better on defense, and most of all he has to shoot much better.

Wusu
FT:  61.7%
3 PT:  28.1%

 

[Mullins Revenge]

My expectation from day one was that this staff would bring stability/continuity to the program, and gradually increase the talent level as time went on. While some of you may excuse the mass defections as a "sign of the times", they are unequivocally extraordinary even by current college basketball standards. Those who can't see that simply don't want to see that. So as of now, there is no stability and very little continuity. That leaves increasing the talent level. How many of you guys actually think that the staff is going to go out and refill the roster with  players that are subjectively and substantially better then those who left? Because if we hope to be better next year, we are going to need substantially better players. Especially since the old players already knew the system. So far we've picked up 2 solid pieces, but no one what will move the needle very much, if at all. I think that the staff will grab a few more solid pieces, but no one that is going to be much of an upgrade over what we lost, no matter what kind of spin some of you guys put on it. So, at this point, I'll sit back and wait and  hope for the best. What choice do any of us have? 

Correct.  And this is the problem right now. A kid from Vermont and one who played 10 minutes a game are making little if any difference in the grand scheme of things.  If we continue to fill out the roster w these type of transfers, we are in trouble.

 

[billthetruth]

Can all the PIs on here stop with the conspiracy theories. Just about every college basketball team is going to lose 3/4 players at minimum under these transfer rules. In fact Florida might have close to 8/9 too. 

the free transfer rule plus the fact that we have Mullin (previous staff) holdovers and guys we had to reach in to fill a roster, including a couple of JC reaches (let’s not forget that Moore was a failed project at the College of Charleston) it is a perfect storm. 

I spend every post game thread that Knight produces reading complaint after complaint about each and every guy that is transferring out  and how he is no good and how the talent level needs to up graded.

Now we have a bunch of revisionist complaining about how sky is falling that we are losing these exact same players, the ones without Posh that got run off court and embarrassed by DePaul at home with everything on the line. Please

This board needs a resident psychologist after the last fortnight. It is April 2nd and 1st game of next season is more than 7 months away.

we have the reigning coach of year because he overachieved with 2 tremendous player and a bunch of 2nd level talent. (And yes even Williams is 2nd level when looking at the starting 5s other Big East teams throw out there). CMA knows what he is doing. He has a great opportunity to upgrade the roster. We are not losing Shag, Kobe, and Horry from the team this offseason.

it is starting to get real laughable reading a bunch of middle aged men whining about decisions made by 20 year old kids, 80% of which are easily replaceable in my opinion. 



 

 

[billthetruth]

My expectation from day one was that this staff would bring stability/continuity to the program, and gradually increase the talent level as time went on. While some of you may excuse the mass defections as a "sign of the times", they are unequivocally extraordinary even by current college basketball standards. Those who can't see that simply don't want to see that. So as of now, there is no stability and very little continuity. That leaves increasing the talent level. How many of you guys actually think that the staff is going to go out and refill the roster with  players that are subjectively and substantially better then those who left? Because if we hope to be better next year, we are going to need substantially better players. Especially since the old players already knew the system. So far we've picked up 2 solid pieces, but no one what will move the needle very much, if at all. I think that the staff will grab a few more solid pieces, but no one that is going to be much of an upgrade over what we lost, no matter what kind of spin some of you guys put on it. So, at this point, I'll sit back and wait and  hope for the best. What choice do any of us have? 

Correct.  And this is the problem right now. A kid from Vermont and one who played 10 minutes a game are making little if any difference in the grand scheme of things.  If we continue to fill out the roster w these type of transfers, we are in trouble.

Stop making things up that are not true. The kid was a major contributor on a team that handed us our lunch at Carnesecca last year.