RIP Pete Rose

I never paid much attention to the Rose/HOF debate.

But didn't he come clean in recent years and offer a mea culpa?
 
Knight said:
Shoeless Joe cheated the game.
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Pete as a manager claimed he never bet against his team, but what if it's a Reds game he isn't in play on, so he holds out his best relief pitcher because he wants to bet on the Reds the next game and he'll have his ace reliever available?

The slippery slope......

The most two-faced thing about the sanctity of the No Betting On Baseball mantra is us being bombarded before, during and after the games with betting sites partnered up with MLB.
 
I never wanted Rose to be enshrined when he was alive. That was his punishment--a lifetime ban. With his passing, his accomplishments are evident that on his performance he belongs. There is no evidence that he cheated to gain an advantage like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Sosa, etc.
 
Knight said:
I never wanted Rose to be enshrined when he was alive. That was his punishment--a lifetime ban. With his passing, his accomplishments are evident that on his performance he belongs. There is no evidence that he cheated to gain an advantage like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, Sosa, etc.
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He betted on games his team was involved. It doesn’t matter that he betted for his team. It could still cloud your judgement and how you manage.

Stats are undeniably HOF worthy, but his betting is not.
 
BrookJersey Redmen said:
Pete as a manager claimed he never bet against his team, but what if it's a Reds game he isn't in play on, so he holds out his best relief pitcher because he wants to bet on the Reds the next game and he'll have his ace reliever available?

The slippery slope......

The most two-faced thing about the sanctity of the No Betting On Baseball mantra is us being bombarded before, during and after the games with betting sites partnered up with MLB.
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I get your last sentence (and it’s not just baseball). Bugs the hell out of me.

I am not against gambling but I (am sick of all of the advertising for it!
 
People who spent any amount of time around him felt he was an insufferable, crude lout, misogynistic, more importantly, let's not forget statutory rape charges he beat due to the statute of limitations and he dismissed, with "it was 55 years ago, babe....".

While at autograph tables, he'd be drinking, have a TV nearby to follow his bets, and ogle women. Young kid asked him "his biggest thrill?" answers, "going to town with this lovely lady", Class Act.

Plus, he fought with a favorite Met, Bud Harrelson, bad on Pete, Bud was a gentlemen.

One last thought, Rose was a Punch and Judy hitter (JK), a compiler as Mikie Francesa would say, no HoFer for me for many reasons.
 
Pete was an asshole. He's the guy we would love to hate but love him one our team

F the betting, Steroids just as bad imo.. BUT he agreed to the ban so I don't feel sorry plus he lied. BUT Its' time put him in
 
BrookJersey Redmen said:
People who spent any amount of time around him felt he was an insufferable, crude lout, misogynistic, more importantly, let's not forget statutory rape charges he beat due to the statute of limitations and he dismissed, with "it was 55 years ago, babe....".

While at autograph tables, he'd be drinking, have a TV nearby to follow his bets, and ogle women. Young kid asked him "his biggest thrill?" answers, "going to town with this lovely lady", Class Act.

Plus, he fought with a favorite Met, Bud Harrelson, bad on Pete, Bud was a gentlemen.

One last thought, Rose was a Punch and Judy hitter (JK), a compiler as Mikie Francesa would say, no HoFer for me for many reasons.
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Accept and respect your opinion BUT he was NOT a punch and judy hitter - Matty Alou was. With about 1000 extra base hits, more doubles than Mays and more than twice as many as Mantle plus 160 home runs, not so bad. Plus he won two gold gloves. Hate the person, love the athlete. Unique style with his intensity and effort - Jimmy Connors was the same and neither had it in them to apologize for bad behavior. Rose was different in that he didn't taunt or trash talk opponents, incite the fans (though I was there when he hit my favorite Met like a truck)

It really such a tragedy because in the aftermath he acted like such an ass, sort of the way OJ lost his veneer of class. Had he not gambled on baseball he would have gone to his grave revered by generations to come. Dads and granddads would point him out to their kids and say "See that guy? THAT'S how you play the game - All out on every pitch and play."
 
I never did and don’t now really care whether Rose got in, gets in or is shunned from the HOF for all eternity; but one reason I guess I am leaning towards hoping he gets in is so I don’t have to listen anymore to people who think he should be a role model for youngsters. He was a lowlife huckster who got the maximum out of his ability playing a game, but applied that same intensity to being a money loving horrible con man of a human being in the real world.
Should that in itself affect his HOF eligibility? Absolutely not!!
But IMO betting on games he had a direct influence on certainly does.
 
Beasts of the East said:
Accept and respect your opinion BUT he was NOT a punch and judy hitter - Matty Alou was. With about 1000 extra base hits, more doubles than Mays and more than twice as many as Mantle plus 160 home runs, not so bad. Plus he won two gold gloves. Hate the person, love the athlete. Unique style with his intensity and effort - Jimmy Connors was the same and neither had it in them to apologize for bad behavior. Rose was different in that he didn't taunt or trash talk opponents, incite the fans (though I was there when he hit my favorite Met like a truck)

It really such a tragedy because in the aftermath he acted like such an ass, sort of the way OJ lost his veneer of class. Had he not gambled on baseball he would have gone to his grave revered by generations to come. Dads and granddads would point him out to their kids and say "See that guy? THAT'S how you play the game - All out on every pitch and play."
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The best way to sum up Pete Rose’s career is to acknowledge that he was the greatest singles hitter of all time. 75.54 percent of his hits were singles. That makes 3,215 singles and very little else. Among 3,000-hitters, only Tony Gwynn (78.74 percent) is worse, and only Rod Carew (78.74 percent) and Lou Brock (74.33 percent) are close to this miserable standard. Yet all three had higher slugging percentages.

Rose was also a weak RBI man: he and Boggs are the only 3,000-hit players with fewer RBIs than walks. Among the moderns, he and Brock are lowest in RBI per hit (0.30). Even Carew and Boggs (10 percent) and Gwynn (20 percent) are better.

Using Thorn and Palmer’s measurement for Fielding Runs6 and Stolen Base Runs, Rose does not look very good. In Fielding Runs, his rating is -71. Every other 3,000-hit player is in positive territory, except Musial (-38), Molitor (-21), Brett (-17), and Carew (-2). This is an interesting stat, since it is the sluggers you would expect to contribute little in the field. Clemente’s rating is +113, Mays’ is +96, and Aaron and Kaline are at +70 and +69 respectively. Yastrzemski contributed as many runs to his team through his fielding as Rose lost for his teams in the field.

Charlie Hustle? The stolen base stats are even worse. At -30, Rose is dead last in Stolen Base Runs among modern 3,000-hitters. The next worst is Yaz at -19. Clemente, Musial and Kaline are close to zero, with sluggers like Aaron and Mays at +28 and +40, respectively. Of course, Brock is off the chart at +97.

Pete Rose holds some impressive places on the all-time lists: first in games, at-bats, and hits; second in doubles; fourth in runs scored; sixth in total bases; eighth in Runs Produced;IO eleventh in walks and Runs Created;ll seventeenth in extra-base hits; and sixty-fifth in RBIs.12 But it must be noted that these are all purely volume related accomplishments, products of Rose’s extraordinary longevity. He played for twenty-four years.
The facts show that Rose neither scored nor batted in runs with any frequency, did not get on base exceptionally, seldom hit for extra bases, and was a liability in the field and on the base paths. Apart from doing these things for a very long time — and hitting a ton of singles — Pete Rose accomplished very little with his 4,256 hits and 3,215 singles. All he did was collect them; he did not make them count. He did not help his teams dramatically. In his time, he was a good player, not a great one, with the good fortune to play on teams that were prodigious run-producers. He certainly should not be considered one of the great players of the century.


Longevity and consistency. Until he made an embarrassment of himself by hanging on to stagger past Ty Cobb’s all-time hits record,16 Pete Rose churned out half a run per hit for over twenty years. His lifetime ratio is within two percent of the ratio for his best years. Now, half a run per hit is not that exceptional, but he did keep it up for a long time.

Among modern players, he dominates the 3,000 hit club. But the peculiarity of Rose’s career is that his single-minded pursuit of this goal did not generate collateral offensive contributions to his teams that were outstanding in any particular. The reason the 3,000 hit club is meaningful is that, historically speaking, only great offensive players reach that plateau. Once the plateau was established, however, it became an end in itself for Pete Rose, who put together 3,000 hits with less effect than anyone who preceded (or followed) him, with the possible exception of Lou Brock. Compared to these peers, Rose did not produce runs, did not hit for extra bases, did not get on base much, fielded badly, and didn’t get that many hits per game. Essentially, he was carried by good teams, in relation to whom he was not a particularly outstanding player.

Oh, yes — he did run out bases on balls.
 
BrookJersey Redmen said:
The best way to sum up Pete Rose’s career is to acknowledge that he was the greatest singles hitter of all time. 75.54 percent of his hits were singles. That makes 3,215 singles and very little else. Among 3,000-hitters, only Tony Gwynn (78.74 percent) is worse, and only Rod Carew (78.74 percent) and Lou Brock (74.33 percent) are close to this miserable standard. Yet all three had higher slugging percentages.

Rose was also a weak RBI man: he and Boggs are the only 3,000-hit players with fewer RBIs than walks. Among the moderns, he and Brock are lowest in RBI per hit (0.30). Even Carew and Boggs (10 percent) and Gwynn (20 percent) are better.

Using Thorn and Palmer’s measurement for Fielding Runs6 and Stolen Base Runs, Rose does not look very good. In Fielding Runs, his rating is -71. Every other 3,000-hit player is in positive territory, except Musial (-38), Molitor (-21), Brett (-17), and Carew (-2). This is an interesting stat, since it is the sluggers you would expect to contribute little in the field. Clemente’s rating is +113, Mays’ is +96, and Aaron and Kaline are at +70 and +69 respectively. Yastrzemski contributed as many runs to his team through his fielding as Rose lost for his teams in the field.

Charlie Hustle? The stolen base stats are even worse. At -30, Rose is dead last in Stolen Base Runs among modern 3,000-hitters. The next worst is Yaz at -19. Clemente, Musial and Kaline are close to zero, with sluggers like Aaron and Mays at +28 and +40, respectively. Of course, Brock is off the chart at +97.

Pete Rose holds some impressive places on the all-time lists: first in games, at-bats, and hits; second in doubles; fourth in runs scored; sixth in total bases; eighth in Runs Produced;IO eleventh in walks and Runs Created;ll seventeenth in extra-base hits; and sixty-fifth in RBIs.12 But it must be noted that these are all purely volume related accomplishments, products of Rose’s extraordinary longevity. He played for twenty-four years.
The facts show that Rose neither scored nor batted in runs with any frequency, did not get on base exceptionally, seldom hit for extra bases, and was a liability in the field and on the base paths. Apart from doing these things for a very long time — and hitting a ton of singles — Pete Rose accomplished very little with his 4,256 hits and 3,215 singles. All he did was collect them; he did not make them count. He did not help his teams dramatically. In his time, he was a good player, not a great one, with the good fortune to play on teams that were prodigious run-producers. He certainly should not be considered one of the great players of the century.


Longevity and consistency. Until he made an embarrassment of himself by hanging on to stagger past Ty Cobb’s all-time hits record,16 Pete Rose churned out half a run per hit for over twenty years. His lifetime ratio is within two percent of the ratio for his best years. Now, half a run per hit is not that exceptional, but he did keep it up for a long time.

Among modern players, he dominates the 3,000 hit club. But the peculiarity of Rose’s career is that his single-minded pursuit of this goal did not generate collateral offensive contributions to his teams that were outstanding in any particular. The reason the 3,000 hit club is meaningful is that, historically speaking, only great offensive players reach that plateau. Once the plateau was established, however, it became an end in itself for Pete Rose, who put together 3,000 hits with less effect than anyone who preceded (or followed) him, with the possible exception of Lou Brock. Compared to these peers, Rose did not produce runs, did not hit for extra bases, did not get on base much, fielded badly, and didn’t get that many hits per game. Essentially, he was carried by good teams, in relation to whom he was not a particularly outstanding player.

Oh, yes — he did run out bases on balls.
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Thats about 400 words that doesn't address your description as a Punch and Judy hitter. That would be a Bud Harrelson, an Al Weis, Matty Alou, Ozzie Smith. Not Pete Rose.
 
BrookJersey Redmen said:
One last thought, Rose was a Punch and Judy hitter (JK), a compiler as Mikie Francesa would say, no HoFer for me for many reasons.
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Beast, "JK" meant Just Kidding about the Punch and Judy comment, but the rest of the explanation of his lack of prowess and his being a compiler is spot on.

160 dingers sounds good, but over 24 seasons, it's 6 a year. Maybe Judy and no Punch.

Diving into first base and running out Base on Balls, big MEH to me.

Charlie The Hustler is more like it.

Bart Giamatti was right in what he did.

(Short enough for you?)
 
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