Purely Tactical

[docbutler]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

 

[MCNPA]

Yes Doc, but we were also destroying UNC Asheville, Murray state and eve Baylor in the first halves. It's not like our strategies weren't working at those points. We certainly aren't adjusting well in second halves to certain changes, but I don't think it is all just one strategic failure like some making it out. All those games, our strategy had us in full control at one point, with healthy leads in all of them. We are having lots of breakdowns though, and those need to be recognized and fixed. Our execution was horrid last game when they outscored us something like 30-4. Not sure what was our strategic issues except that the wrong guys were guarding Atkinson.

I agree that the Substitutions were not good in this game. Pointer played too much. Branch should have played more in the second half when our offense was collapsing. It's exactly what we need a Pg to do which is get us settled. Not a well subbed game. We panicked on offense in the second half and they just packed it in because we don't have anybody that can score inside. It is a weakness that I don't think we have an answer for right now without Gift and Sanchez.

I do caution doc that you mention Lavin "only" having one elite 8. We've only had one elite 8 as a team in how many years? Lavin not only has an elite 8 but advanced to the Sweet 16 five times. That is not something to sneeze at. I'm not saying I like the way we're playing right now and losing to lower tier teams but it isn't like we are the only team that is doing so. Howland has one less loss with more talent, also against average teams and isn't he supposedly an X's and O's guru?

Anybody can point to a bad loss or two and Monday morning QB it. I could point out lots of coaches that are known for their prowess that have head scratching losses every year. I think it is a bit early to claim that this is all because of horrid and flawed coaching. Not Lavin's best coaching job in the second half nor execution on our player's part. We were destroying them in the first half doing the same thing though. We just failed to execute down the stretch.

 

[Ray Morgan]

Although the analysis correctly explains why teams exploit our weaknesses, in simple terms it is an excuse for losing that was covered in the "top ten list". There is a lot of experience on this staff, filled with men that spend their lives analyzing film, reading scouting reports, coaching hundreds of games, and running thousands of practices. Not all coaches are the same, and Lavin may never be John Wooden or Coach K. However, it is the players that account for 90% of what happens on the floor. These players, at this stage of their careers, are wanting.

In his first season, Lavin took a beat down bunch of doormats, and coached them to a fine senior season. But now, by some accounts, he is a blithering idiot who can't tell an x from an o. The man is a cancer survivor. He missed last year, and also spent 7 or so years in the broadcast booth and doing other things. Maybe he is playing catch up, too. Maybe we are just being impatient, expecting that in year three, which is really year two considering his absence, we should be Big East contenders. The program was finished. Under Norm, beating out SMU for a recruit was considered a victory. We beat out Kansas for Sampson. The make up of the college game, with the greedy NBA swallowing up 19 year old kids who haven't yet learned the game, has changed. So Lavin goes for the best athletes, which you need to compete in the Big East, because Cuse, Pitt, Marquette and Georgetown are getting them year in, year out. The ones that can jump, fit the NBA profile, and have decent skill sets, will be gone after a year. Harkless, gone. Sampson will be next, if not after this season, then the next one. You put together a NBA staff, then it's no surprise when the NBA goes after your assistant coach, too. This rebuilding, in year three, is still in its infancy. It is time to lower out expectations.

 

[Class of 72]

Although the analysis correctly explains why teams exploit our weaknesses, in simple terms it is an excuse for losing that was covered in the "top ten list". There is a lot of experience on this staff, filled with men that spend their lives analyzing film, reading scouting reports, coaching hundreds of games, and running thousands of practices. Not all coaches are the same, and Lavin may never be John Wooden or Coach K. However, it is the players that account for 90% of what happens on the floor. These players, at this stage of their careers, are wanting.

In his first season, Lavin took a beat down bunch of doormats, and coached them to a fine senior season. But now, by some accounts, he is a blithering idiot who can't tell an x from an o. The man is a cancer survivor. He missed last year, and also spent 7 or so years in the broadcast booth and doing other things. Maybe he is playing catch up, too. Maybe we are just being impatient, expecting that in year three, which is really year two considering his absence, we should be Big East contenders. The program was finished. Under Norm, beating out SMU for a recruit was considered a victory. We beat out Kansas for Sampson. The make up of the college game, with the greedy NBA swallowing up 19 year old kids who haven't yet learned the game, has changed. So Lavin goes for the best athletes, which you need to compete in the Big East, because Cuse, Pitt, Marquette and Georgetown are getting them year in, year out. The ones that can jump, fit the NBA profile, and have decent skill sets, will be gone after a year. Harkless, gone. Sampson will be next, if not after this season, then the next one. You put together a NBA staff, then it's no surprise when the NBA goes after your assistant coach, too. This rebuilding, in year three, is still in its infancy. It is time to lower out expectations.

You are correct on many counts and yes, we have been able to get the top 100 talent Norm Roberts count not get. However, that talent has to blend and the pieces have to fit. It means not signing 6 small forwards that cannot shoot or rebound and signing one or two decent ball handlers and shooters. This is St. John's in the Big East, in NYC, playing at MSG not Butler or Creighton or Xavier or Gonzaga or St. Mary's---- IF "This rebuilding, in year three, is still in its infancy. It is time to lower out expectations", I suggest you look at the price of your game ticket and paste the Times Square Billboard on your screen saver because you could have fooled plenty of fans who believed Lavin and his "year three" promise. So I guess if year 3 is infancy, and having records similar to Norm Roberts is OK after 4 years, then Uconn and Cincy are pretty damn lucky they will eventually land in another conference because we at SJ will have gone back to thinking "small" steps. After the firing of Fran Frachilla and Mike Jarvis and Norm Roberts......remind me of the progress we are making after 15 years?
My expectation has to be lowered so I can hope to be a Creighton in the next 2 years......in NYC???
Pass the pipe brother!
I, and most on this board, are expecting that turn-around THIS YEAR. I am expecting to sign Jordan and Lawrence. I am not expecting to rebuild again in year FOUR.

BTW, if St. John's still sucks next year and NYC has lost interest, the new "basketball league" is doomed to failure. For the new league to have any hope, SJ has to get on the fast track, and I mean FAST.

 

[beast of the east]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

Doc,

Thanks for your reply. You can pick apart any analogy and I'm not going to wrtlie and analogy that is so well defined it is rdiciulous to read. I spend summers on Shelter Island where Itzhak Perlman runs a summer camp for some of the most gifted musicians in the world. The have these open teaching sessions, where he conducts a lessons for kids who perform a piece and as they do , he breaks it down. OBviously they are already prodigies, but to become world class professionals, they need to be taught. Talent only gets you so far.

Over the past seasons, when we lose these types of games, I think that the coach could easily stop teaching, let the kids revert to a man defense, and let their superior athleticism yield a W against mid major competition.

The problem with that is, in my opinion, is that once you enter the Big East season and are playing a team with superior size AND talent, if they haven't begun to master team defense, you will get wacked game in and game out with almost no chance of winning.

I do think this strategy will pay dividends down the road. With a six time national coach of the year on our bench (Keady), who you and I both know is no shrinking violet, I think if LAvin was dead wrong, Keady would respectfully school Lavin, or walk away.

D1 talent or not, most young players need to learn how to play this game. I understand your point, but will take the long view here. Of course if they end up one or two early season wins short of a bid, others might agree with you then.

 

[ras]

Its true our most experienced players are only sophmores and none were Mcd. AAs so we should exhibit patience. The frustrating thing is, we do not seem to be improving as the year goes on.

 

[jrhoops1949]

we have talent, we have depth, we have two 3 pt shooters, we have the world's greatest shot blocker, we have Sampson who can do it all. WE STINK!!!! Why is that? Lavin has the 6 time national coach of the year sitting next to him. I dont know if it's Xs and Os or lack of effort or a combination of both but last night I saw both. As for Branch he is the PG we need but he was sloppy last night. Cant turn it over 4 times in 10 minutes and 2 other times he went up in the air with a defender draped all over him with nowhere to go so it could have been 6 TOs.

I figure a new player like Branch to take some time breaking into game conditions. I also figure this whole team needs time to jell as they weren't picked higher then 10th, and in some cases last in the BE. Whats got to start happening is playing hard on every play for 40 minutes. Some loses were to teams we weren't ready to beat. Other night we stopped playing hard. We been playing without a point guard, and hope Branch can be a player and leader.Team is young, and these type of problems not to be unexpected. Now they got to start playing better.

 

[Class of 72]

I love the title of this thread---"Purely Tactical".
Explain the tactical decision to start Christian Jones, but sit our leading rebounder for last year? Please post Jones rebounding average for us to justify that decision.
Explain the tactical decision to start Felix Balamou and see him play with fire and then disappear into walk-on garbage time?
Explain to tactical decision to start Frenchie? Tres' bien mon coach!
I am starting to think the starting rotation has more to do with a spinning wheel with players names than a tactic.

Here is my starting lineup for the Nova game. I emailed it to Lav. I hope he takes my advice since I used bottle caps with the players' names.

Gift, Sampson, Obekpa, Branch and Harrison. Players off the bench, in priority order: Amir, Phil, Felix, and Pointer.

 

[Moose]

I love the title of this thread---"Purely Tactical".
Explain the tactical decision to start Christian Jones, but sit our leading rebounder for last year? Please post Jones rebounding average for us to justify that decision.
Explain the tactical decision to start Felix Balamou and see him play with fire and then disappear into walk-on garbage time?
Explain to tactical decision to start Frenchie? Tres' bien mon coach!
I am starting to think the starting rotation has more to do with a spinning wheel with players names than a tactic.

Here is my starting lineup for the Nova game. I emailed it to Lav. I hope he takes my advice since I used bottle caps with the players' names.

Gift, Sampson, Obekpa, Branch and Harrison. Players off the bench, in priority order: Amir, Phil, Felix, and Pointer.

Someone doesn't seem to like Lavin too much.....

 

[Class of 72]

I love the title of this thread---"Purely Tactical".
Explain the tactical decision to start Christian Jones, but sit our leading rebounder for last year? Please post Jones rebounding average for us to justify that decision.
Explain the tactical decision to start Felix Balamou and see him play with fire and then disappear into walk-on garbage time?
Explain to tactical decision to start Frenchie? Tres' bien mon coach!
I am starting to think the starting rotation has more to do with a spinning wheel with players names than a tactic.

Here is my starting lineup for the Nova game. I emailed it to Lav. I hope he takes my advice since I used bottle caps with the players' names.

Gift, Sampson, Obekpa, Branch and Harrison. Players off the bench, in priority order: Amir, Phil, Felix, and Pointer.

Someone doesn't seem to like Lavin too much.....

It's nothing personal......just business.
Needless to say, I am a little pissed with the Gift situation and perplexed by the Sanchez mystery. Both are tied directly to coaches miscalculation. It may be the difference between a winning or a losing season. With such very young players, especially Obekpa, having Gift this year was critical IMO.
The bottom line is this year may be the last year of the Old Big East as we knew it. It will still include Pitt, Cuse, ND, Louisville, Cincy and Uconn. It would be nice to put our best lineup on the court instead of a Christain Jones in the starting lineup in place of a Gift. Our rebounding has been our weakest part of the game yet when I see Gift on the bench, I get livid.

 

[MCNPA]

I love the title of this thread---"Purely Tactical".
Explain the tactical decision to start Christian Jones, but sit our leading rebounder for last year? Please post Jones rebounding average for us to justify that decision.
Explain the tactical decision to start Felix Balamou and see him play with fire and then disappear into walk-on garbage time?
Explain to tactical decision to start Frenchie? Tres' bien mon coach!
I am starting to think the starting rotation has more to do with a spinning wheel with players names than a tactic.

Here is my starting lineup for the Nova game. I emailed it to Lav. I hope he takes my advice since I used bottle caps with the players' names.

Gift, Sampson, Obekpa, Branch and Harrison. Players off the bench, in priority order: Amir, Phil, Felix, and Pointer.

Someone doesn't seem to like Lavin too much.....

It's nothing personal......just business.
Needless to say, I am a little pissed with the Gift situation and perplexed by the Sanchez mystery. Both are tied directly to coaches miscalculation. It may be the difference between a winning or a losing season. With such very young players, especially Obekpa, having Gift this year was critical IMO.
The bottom line is this year may be the last year of the Old Big East as we knew it. It will still include Pitt, Cuse, ND, Louisville, Cincy and Uconn. It would be nice to put our best lineup on the court instead of a Christain Jones in the starting lineup in place of a Gift. Our rebounding has been our weakest part of the game yet when I see Gift on the bench, I get livid.

Agree. Gift should be playing. It will be more glaring issue should Sanchez not be declared eligible soon, and Im not optimistic there.

 

[Jnaw17]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

What team were you watching two years ago that stopped pressing? The one that ran Duke out of the building or the one that blew out UConn? I love the convenient memories that we have on this site. That team used pressure defense to overcome its inadequacies in the half court. It never stopped pressing.

Lav is teaching this team every day and we're seeing glimpses of the progress, but clearly not as much or as quickly as many of us would like. Two years ago, I felt the same way after the Ball State game, Fordham and Davidson. We struggled against lousy teams, but you saw stretches of good play. We looked very good at times in the first half last week. Let's see if we can build on that with the 'Nova game. Like some others, I'm expecting things to come together with each game. We'll see.

 

[dee]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

What team were you watching two years ago that stopped pressing? The one that ran Duke out of the building or the one that blew out UConn? I love the convenient memories that we have on this site. That team used pressure defense to overcome its inadequacies in the half court. It never stopped pressing.

Lav is teaching this team every day and we're seeing glimpses of the progress, but clearly not as much or as quickly as many of us would like. Two years ago, I felt the same way after the Ball State game, Fordham and Davidson. We struggled against lousy teams, but you saw stretches of good play. We looked very good at times in the first half last week. Let's see if we can build on that with the 'Nova game. Like some others, I'm expecting things to come together with each game. We'll see.

yes we can always dream. but reality hits hard and hurts

 

[Class of 72]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

What team were you watching two years ago that stopped pressing? The one that ran Duke out of the building or the one that blew out UConn? I love the convenient memories that we have on this site. That team used pressure defense to overcome its inadequacies in the half court. It never stopped pressing.

Lav is teaching this team every day and we're seeing glimpses of the progress, but clearly not as much or as quickly as many of us would like. Two years ago, I felt the same way after the Ball State game, Fordham and Davidson. We struggled against lousy teams, but you saw stretches of good play. We looked very good at times in the first half last week. Let's see if we can build on that with the 'Nova game. Like some others, I'm expecting things to come together with each game. We'll see.

You do realize you are talking about "Norm's recruits" that year and not the 7 "top 75" rated sophs and frosh we have this year?
I am not sure how many of these current recruits will stay 4 years like Norm's considering the rate of transfers, ineligible players and one and doners. St. John' s will never hit that 20 wins plateau without player stability. If we do not sign Jordan AND another Big, we are possibly looking at rebuilding again in year 4........even Norm did not have to do that.

 

[Section3]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

What team were you watching two years ago that stopped pressing? The one that ran Duke out of the building or the one that blew out UConn? I love the convenient memories that we have on this site. That team used pressure defense to overcome its inadequacies in the half court. It never stopped pressing.

Lav is teaching this team every day and we're seeing glimpses of the progress, but clearly not as much or as quickly as many of us would like. Two years ago, I felt the same way after the Ball State game, Fordham and Davidson. We struggled against lousy teams, but you saw stretches of good play. We looked very good at times in the first half last week. Let's see if we can build on that with the 'Nova game. Like some others, I'm expecting things to come together with each game. We'll see.

You do realize you are talking about "Norm's recruits" that year and not the 7 "top 75" rated sophs and frosh we have this year?
I am not sure how many of these current recruits will stay 4 years like Norm's considering the rate of transfers, ineligible players and one and doners. St. John' s will never hit that 20 wins plateau without player stability. If we do not sign Jordan AND another Big, we are possibly looking at rebuilding again in year 4........even Norm did not have to do that.

Unfortunately the nature of the beast for today's recruiting landscape...guys leave early...requires time to build up a base that can sustain in the face of defections...Lavin started building from zero...this is year 2 of the rebuilding era...only issue I see is that we should have recruited a PG and big that can rebound....other than that, Norm's recruiting doesnt compare with Lavin..two different worlds

 

[STJClass_2013]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

What team were you watching two years ago that stopped pressing? The one that ran Duke out of the building or the one that blew out UConn? I love the convenient memories that we have on this site. That team used pressure defense to overcome its inadequacies in the half court. It never stopped pressing.

Lav is teaching this team every day and we're seeing glimpses of the progress, but clearly not as much or as quickly as many of us would like. Two years ago, I felt the same way after the Ball State game, Fordham and Davidson. We struggled against lousy teams, but you saw stretches of good play. We looked very good at times in the first half last week. Let's see if we can build on that with the 'Nova game. Like some others, I'm expecting things to come together with each game. We'll see.

You do realize you are talking about "Norm's recruits" that year and not the 7 "top 75" rated sophs and frosh we have this year?
I am not sure how many of these current recruits will stay 4 years like Norm's considering the rate of transfers, ineligible players and one and doners. St. John' s will never hit that 20 wins plateau without player stability. If we do not sign Jordan AND another Big, we are possibly looking at rebuilding again in year 4........even Norm did not have to do that.

Unfortunately the nature of the beast for today's recruiting landscape...guys leave early...requires time to build up a base that can sustain in the face of defections...Lavin started building from zero...this is year 2 of the rebuilding era...only issue I see is that we should have recruited a PG and big that can rebound....other than that, Norm's recruiting doesnt compare with Lavin..two different worlds[/quote

Lavin has both in sight in this class. And class of 72 if this team is so bad stop watching. This team is by far better than the 85-86 team. I don't mean stats I mean the 85-86 team would get ruined by this years team. The only thing that would keep the old St johns team in it would be Mullins and the 3 pointer.

Let's be really guys this is a game and their will always be another one. And if you want a top 25 team there are 25 bandwagons waiting for you to get on. So stfu and watch the Johnnies get through this season or gtfo

 

[Class of 72]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

What team were you watching two years ago that stopped pressing? The one that ran Duke out of the building or the one that blew out UConn? I love the convenient memories that we have on this site. That team used pressure defense to overcome its inadequacies in the half court. It never stopped pressing.

Lav is teaching this team every day and we're seeing glimpses of the progress, but clearly not as much or as quickly as many of us would like. Two years ago, I felt the same way after the Ball State game, Fordham and Davidson. We struggled against lousy teams, but you saw stretches of good play. We looked very good at times in the first half last week. Let's see if we can build on that with the 'Nova game. Like some others, I'm expecting things to come together with each game. We'll see.

You do realize you are talking about "Norm's recruits" that year and not the 7 "top 75" rated sophs and frosh we have this year?
I am not sure how many of these current recruits will stay 4 years like Norm's considering the rate of transfers, ineligible players and one and doners. St. John' s will never hit that 20 wins plateau without player stability. If we do not sign Jordan AND another Big, we are possibly looking at rebuilding again in year 4........even Norm did not have to do that.

Unfortunately the nature of the beast for today's recruiting landscape...guys leave early...requires time to build up a base that can sustain in the face of defections...Lavin started building from zero...this is year 2 of the rebuilding era...only issue I see is that we should have recruited a PG and big that can rebound....other than that, Norm's recruiting doesnt compare with Lavin..two different worlds

Does that analysis include the different recruiting worlds at UNC Ashville and San Fran? It is how you develop and coach those recruits, whether they are top 75 like ours or not rated at all like those at the two schools above.

 

[Section3]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

What team were you watching two years ago that stopped pressing? The one that ran Duke out of the building or the one that blew out UConn? I love the convenient memories that we have on this site. That team used pressure defense to overcome its inadequacies in the half court. It never stopped pressing.

Lav is teaching this team every day and we're seeing glimpses of the progress, but clearly not as much or as quickly as many of us would like. Two years ago, I felt the same way after the Ball State game, Fordham and Davidson. We struggled against lousy teams, but you saw stretches of good play. We looked very good at times in the first half last week. Let's see if we can build on that with the 'Nova game. Like some others, I'm expecting things to come together with each game. We'll see.

You do realize you are talking about "Norm's recruits" that year and not the 7 "top 75" rated sophs and frosh we have this year?
I am not sure how many of these current recruits will stay 4 years like Norm's considering the rate of transfers, ineligible players and one and doners. St. John' s will never hit that 20 wins plateau without player stability. If we do not sign Jordan AND another Big, we are possibly looking at rebuilding again in year 4........even Norm did not have to do that.

Unfortunately the nature of the beast for today's recruiting landscape...guys leave early...requires time to build up a base that can sustain in the face of defections...Lavin started building from zero...this is year 2 of the rebuilding era...only issue I see is that we should have recruited a PG and big that can rebound....other than that, Norm's recruiting doesnt compare with Lavin..two different worlds

Does that analysis include the different recruiting worlds at UNC Ashville and San Fran? It is how you develop and coach those recruits, whether they are top 75 like ours or not rated at all like those at the two schools above.

Yes, I heard that SJ was the 1st major conference team to lose to a mid major...we're all ticked and disappointed...but the sky hasnt fallen yet and we are absolutely lighte years beyond where we were 3 years ago...

 

[Class of 72]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

What team were you watching two years ago that stopped pressing? The one that ran Duke out of the building or the one that blew out UConn? I love the convenient memories that we have on this site. That team used pressure defense to overcome its inadequacies in the half court. It never stopped pressing.

Lav is teaching this team every day and we're seeing glimpses of the progress, but clearly not as much or as quickly as many of us would like. Two years ago, I felt the same way after the Ball State game, Fordham and Davidson. We struggled against lousy teams, but you saw stretches of good play. We looked very good at times in the first half last week. Let's see if we can build on that with the 'Nova game. Like some others, I'm expecting things to come together with each game. We'll see.

You do realize you are talking about "Norm's recruits" that year and not the 7 "top 75" rated sophs and frosh we have this year?
I am not sure how many of these current recruits will stay 4 years like Norm's considering the rate of transfers, ineligible players and one and doners. St. John' s will never hit that 20 wins plateau without player stability. If we do not sign Jordan AND another Big, we are possibly looking at rebuilding again in year 4........even Norm did not have to do that.

Unfortunately the nature of the beast for today's recruiting landscape...guys leave early...requires time to build up a base that can sustain in the face of defections...Lavin started building from zero...this is year 2 of the rebuilding era...only issue I see is that we should have recruited a PG and big that can rebound....other than that, Norm's recruiting doesnt compare with Lavin..two different worlds

Does that analysis include the different recruiting worlds at UNC Ashville and San Fran? It is how you develop and coach those recruits, whether they are top 75 like ours or not rated at all like those at the two schools above.

Yes, I heard that SJ was the 1st major conference team to lose to a mid major...we're all ticked and disappointed...but the sky hasnt fallen yet and we are absolutely lighte years beyond where we were 3 years ago...

The term mid-major applies to us as well from our recent history. I am not sure where you were 3 years ago but I was watching a team full of Norm Roberts players, with an outstanding guard named Hardy from the Bronx, become a ranked team and go to the NCAA.
For us to go "light years " beyond 3 years ago, we better get Sanchez on board pronto and Jamal better play more than 13 minutes per game. Right now we are not light years beyond but staring into a big black rebounding hole with a defense that allows more open threes than any other BE team.
To answer another poster, Gift would not be the "answer" to our rebounding problem but he would have been part of the solution after averaging almost 6 rpg in 32 games last season. When our gifted freshman center has not learned to box out and rebound yet, every little rebound would have helped.

 

[1and1sju]

Well Beast...I've given some thought to your Orchestra analogy...and while I understand your point, I fail to see how it applies in this situation. For one thing, Green, Pointer, Harrison, and Garrett hardly qualify as fledgling musicians. Also, a poor music teacher will always remain exactly that...a poor music teacher!

Coach Lavin came to St. John's with a clear reputation as being a clever and solid recruiter, but also being a compromised tactician. UCLA fired him for it! He fielded teams with more than one first round draft choice on his roster, but only advanced to the "elite eight" once (mind you, this is during a period when UCLA was still a high profile attraction to the nation's best talent). I'm sure it's fair to make the argument that he was treated unfairly there. Certainly, their expectations were very high. But where there's smoke, there's fire...and currently I see some cause for alarm in the seemingly similar pattern on display here at St. John's.

The purpose of this thread was to point out possible weaknesses in the way we are currently approaching games. Certainly there is something wrong. We have very good talent, and we are either losing to, or barely winning against mid-major talent, that most good teams would categorically beat the crap out of. San Francisco lost to "Holy Cross" and then lost it's next three games. We just lost a 17 point lead to an average team on our home court for a loss. I propose that these losses...along with the bevy of close wins against weak competition....signal strategical inadequacies far more complex than the simplicity of "well, they'll grow out of it"!

Anyway, I know that many are thinking about two years ago...and the admittedly wonderful turn around we experienced with the Dwight Hardy team. But that change came about largely with a turn in strategical direction. We stopped pressing...and Coach Dunlap had an immense impact when the team successfully digested his match-up zone. The shift of Hardy to point guard also paid dividends (who knows whose idea that was?) in that season.

This is the 2012-2013 season. So far, we are clearly under-producing. So far, we are clearly not playing smart basketball. You can blame the kids, you can blame inexperience, or anything else you choose to. This is a free country. But from the perspective of my own observations, using the current defensive and offensive approaches employed by this coaching staff, there isn't going to be any sudden euphoric improvement. For me, I'm stating the obvious. No need to beat me up if you disagree. Opinions are what make life interesting! Personally, I would be very pleased if you were right!

A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all my Redmen.com brothers!

What team were you watching two years ago that stopped pressing? The one that ran Duke out of the building or the one that blew out UConn? I love the convenient memories that we have on this site. That team used pressure defense to overcome its inadequacies in the half court. It never stopped pressing.

Lav is teaching this team every day and we're seeing glimpses of the progress, but clearly not as much or as quickly as many of us would like. Two years ago, I felt the same way after the Ball State game, Fordham and Davidson. We struggled against lousy teams, but you saw stretches of good play. We looked very good at times in the first half last week. Let's see if we can build on that with the 'Nova game. Like some others, I'm expecting things to come together with each game. We'll see.

You do realize you are talking about "Norm's recruits" that year and not the 7 "top 75" rated sophs and frosh we have this year?
I am not sure how many of these current recruits will stay 4 years like Norm's considering the rate of transfers, ineligible players and one and doners. St. John' s will never hit that 20 wins plateau without player stability. If we do not sign Jordan AND another Big, we are possibly looking at rebuilding again in year 4........even Norm did not have to do that.

Unfortunately the nature of the beast for today's recruiting landscape...guys leave early...requires time to build up a base that can sustain in the face of defections...Lavin started building from zero...this is year 2 of the rebuilding era...only issue I see is that we should have recruited a PG and big that can rebound....other than that, Norm's recruiting doesnt compare with Lavin..two different worlds

Hahaha. How can you say "besides not having a point guard or center" Lavins recruiting is phenomenal. Last I checked those are kindve important parts to a team.