Progression or Regression

ghostzapper

Well-known member
2023 $upporter
Coming into this season we had reason to be optimistic to see an improved St. John's product on the court. We were bringing back some key experienced pieces and were adding five new players that seemed like they could be strong contributors. So far the performance of the team as a whole has been somewhat disappointing from where I sit. The players have not hit their stride and blended into a cohesive unit yet. The defensive intensity that was a strength of last season's team is clearly lacking at this point. 

Today we lost our second matchup against Creighton. Last year our hopeful end of the year turnaround, from a weak 3-12 start in league play, began with a dominant win in our second matchup against Creighton on March 1st. While that was a home game towards the end of the season and today's loss was a road game much earlier in the year, the comparisons between the two games are stark.

That game was the absolute high point performance of last year's season (see box score link below). We shot the lights out of the gym then and made an incredible 14 for 22 from three. Greg Williams was on fire shooting 7 for 10 from beyond the arc. Rasheem Dunn had a terrific game with 19 points, 10 assists and 6 rebounds. Conversely, then #10, Creighton was an abysmal 4 for 27 from deep. The presence of now departed players Nick Rutherford and LJ Figueroa helped harass the Blue Jays into a bad shooting night.

Today we struggled to stop #7 Creighton defensively in the first half when they scored 56 points (an all tme Big East first half high for them) and other than a brilliant offensive game by Julian Champagnie (33 points 10 rebounds) and a decent one by Marcellus Earlington (13 points and 6 rebounds) we were not all that effective offensively (see box score link below). 

We could argue that Crieghton is a much better team this year than last year or that we caught them last year in a down cycle but our comparative end results today are disappointing no matter what the reasons.

The inability to guard well on the perimeter or protect the rim on the interior has been a characteristic of the 2020/21 St. John's team. Last year's group battled most games on the defensive end and most of our opponents felt pressure that was disruptive.

After only six conference games it is hard to say that we have absolutely regressed from last year (we were 1 and 5 both years) but it is difficult to point to definitive improvement either. The pandemic and the unusual nature of this year has a definite impact on everything. Hopefully over the next 14 conference games there will be growth and a team defensive identity will begin to emerge.

Coach Mike Anderson has had a way of getting players to grow over the course of the season. Players like Posh Alexander, Dylan Addae-Wusu, Greg Williams, Julian Moore, Rasheem Dunn, Marcellus Earlington and Vince Cole have all shown flashes of ability at times during the season this year and improvement and more consistency is definitely possible. Julian Champagnie seems to be the closest thing we have to a finished product that we can count on game in and game out.

Fourteen conference games are yet to be played. The story of this season is nowhere close to done yet but so far, unfortunately, the topic of regression is not a far fetched one.

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId[/URL]=401168337

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId[/URL]=401269605
 
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ghostzapper" post=412035 said:
Coming into this season we had reason to be optimistic to see an improved St. John's product on the court. We were bringing back some key experienced pieces and were adding five new players that seemed like they could be strong contibutors. So far the performance of the team as a whole has been somewhat disappointing from where I sit. The players have not hit their stride and blended into a cohesive unit yet. The defensive intensity that was a strength of last season's team is clearly lacking at this point. 

Today we lost our second matchup against Creighton. Last year our hopeful end of the year turnaround, from a weak 3-12 start in league play, began with a dominant win in our second matchup against Creighton on March 1st. While that was a home game towards the end of the season and today's loss was a road game much earlier in the year, the comparisons between the two games are stark.

That game was the absolute high point performance of last year's season (see box score link below). We shot the lights out of the gym then and made an incredible 14 for 22 from three. Greg Williams was on fire shooting 7 for 10 from beyond the arc. Rasheem Dunn had a terrific game with 19 points, 10 assists and 6 rebounds. Conversely, then #10, Creighton was an abysmal 4 for 27 from deep. The presence of now departed players Nick Rutherford and LJ Figueroa helped harass the Blue Jays into a bad shooting night.

Today we struggled to stop #7 Creighton defensively in the first half when they scored 56 points (an all tme Big East first half high for them) and other than a brilliant offensive game by Julian Champagnie (33 points 10 rebounds) and a decent one by Marcellus Earlington (13 points and 6 rebounds) we were not all that effective offensively (see box score link below). 

We could argue that Crieghton is a much better team this year than last year or that we caught them last year in a down cycle but our end results today are disappointing no matter what the reasons.

The inability to guard well on the perimeter or protect the rim on the interior has been a characteristic of the 2020/21 St. John's team. Last year's group battled most games on the defensive end and most of our opponents felt pressure that was disruptive.

After only six conference games it is hard to say that we have absolutely regressed from last year (we were 1 and 5 both years) but it is difficult to point to definitive improvement either. The pandemic and the unusual nature of this year has a definite impact on everything. Hopefully over the next 14 conference games there will be growth and a team defensive identity will begin to emerge.

Coach Mike Anderson has had a way of getting players to grow over the course of the season. Players like Posh Alexander, Dylan Addae-Wusu, Greg Williams, Julian Moore, Rasheem Dunn, Marcellus Earlington and Vince Cole have all shown flashes of ability at times during the season this year and improvement and more consistency is definitely possible. Julian Champagnie seems to be the closest thing we have to a finished product that we can count on game in and game out.

Fourteen conference games are yet to be played. The story of this season is nowhere close to done yet but so far, unfortunately, the topic of regression is not a far fetched one.

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId[/URL]=401168337

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId[/URL]=401269605

I agree, our players need to get better as the season progresses. We certainly have all these coaches, player personnel people like Presley to help but can you please show instances (multiple examples) of where Anderson's players grew DURING the season from his past at Arkansas ? I don't see too many of his former players who went from relative unbranded preseason to All SEC teams post season. Right now, I don't see any of our players making any All Big East spots at Tourney time. Our guys play too up and down game to game with no consistency in their performances.

 
 
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AJ Hidell" post=412042 said:
ghostzapper" post=412035 said:
Coming into this season we had reason to be optimistic to see an improved St. John's product on the court. We were bringing back some key experienced pieces and were adding five new players that seemed like they could be strong contibutors. So far the performance of the team as a whole has been somewhat disappointing from where I sit. The players have not hit their stride and blended into a cohesive unit yet. The defensive intensity that was a strength of last season's team is clearly lacking at this point. 

Today we lost our second matchup against Creighton. Last year our hopeful end of the year turnaround, from a weak 3-12 start in league play, began with a dominant win in our second matchup against Creighton on March 1st. While that was a home game towards the end of the season and today's loss was a road game much earlier in the year, the comparisons between the two games are stark.

That game was the absolute high point performance of last year's season (see box score link below). We shot the lights out of the gym then and made an incredible 14 for 22 from three. Greg Williams was on fire shooting 7 for 10 from beyond the arc. Rasheem Dunn had a terrific game with 19 points, 10 assists and 6 rebounds. Conversely, then #10, Creighton was an abysmal 4 for 27 from deep. The presence of now departed players Nick Rutherford and LJ Figueroa helped harass the Blue Jays into a bad shooting night.

Today we struggled to stop #7 Creighton defensively in the first half when they scored 56 points (an all tme Big East first half high for them) and other than a brilliant offensive game by Julian Champagnie (33 points 10 rebounds) and a decent one by Marcellus Earlington (13 points and 6 rebounds) we were not all that effective offensively (see box score link below). 

We could argue that Crieghton is a much better team this year than last year or that we caught them last year in a down cycle but our end results today are disappointing no matter what the reasons.

The inability to guard well on the perimeter or protect the rim on the interior has been a characteristic of the 2020/21 St. John's team. Last year's group battled most games on the defensive end and most of our opponents felt pressure that was disruptive.

After only six conference games it is hard to say that we have absolutely regressed from last year (we were 1 and 5 both years) but it is difficult to point to definitive improvement either. The pandemic and the unusual nature of this year has a definite impact on everything. Hopefully over the next 14 conference games there will be growth and a team defensive identity will begin to emerge.

Coach Mike Anderson has had a way of getting players to grow over the course of the season. Players like Posh Alexander, Dylan Addae-Wusu, Greg Williams, Julian Moore, Rasheem Dunn, Marcellus Earlington and Vince Cole have all shown flashes of ability at times during the season this year and improvement and more consistency is definitely possible. Julian Champagnie seems to be the closest thing we have to a finished product that we can count on game in and game out.

Fourteen conference games are yet to be played. The story of this season is nowhere close to done yet but so far, unfortunately, the topic of regression is not a far fetched one.

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId[/URL]=401168337

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId[/URL]=401269605

I agree, our players need to get better as the season progresses. We certainly have all these coaches, player personnel people like Presley to help but can you please show instances (multiple examples) of where Anderson's players grew DURING the season from his past at Arkansas ? I don't see too many of his former players who went from relative unbranded preseason to All SEC teams post season. Right now, I don't see any of our players making any All Big East spots at Tourney time. Our guys play too up and down game to game with no consistency in their performances.

If the season were to end today, I think Champagnie  would be at least  a second team All Big East performer.  He's been really good.  I didn't follow CMA at Arkansas, but I was impressedwith the player development I saw from last year's team.  I continue to think the heart of the problem is the poor recruiting.  In my opinion, Cole and Toro are not Big East players.  Posh has potential to grow into a good Big East player.  Wusu is more of a project,but he could turn out to be a good player as an upper classman.I'm on the fence about Moore.

The problem is we don't have the luxury of waiting for these guys to blossom into good players.  In today's basketballclimate, there's no guaranteethey'll stick around .  Also, we desperately need to show continued improvement to build some semblance of recruitingmomentum.  We are struggling to do that with a dearth of good Bog East players.


 
 
Problem ,coming into this season Champ was the most talented player,he has gotten better due to his talent.However,the others have not it can be blamed on coach and again he recruited these players.So just maybe they are doing the best they can therefore recruiting has to get to the point where we are getting better talent,and bringing players who can actually shoot  and rim protectors who can really stop drives and rebounds and block shots
To be honest ,SH games was terrible as is most of our games
 
The team has not responded well to the departure of Figgy's overall presence, and Rutherford's energy on  defense and fearlessness on offense. His stats were not lofty, but I remember a number of games he had an impact on.  There is a lack of both leadership and spark this season.

While both J.C. players and the freshman have had their moments, they all lack consistency.  CMA's system works with the right plsyers and effort, but leads to blowouts when done poorly,  That is the case this season.  I see a team with a lack of urgency and lack of energy.  Not everyone, but enough to matter.  If a team doesn't shoot it well and doesn't have an inside game, they better defend extremely well and turn the game into a dogfight. I saw a lot more of that last season.

In the end,  the season we were hoping for was not in the stars. Literally.
 
ghostzapper" post=412035 said:
Coming into this season we had reason to be optimistic to see an improved St. John's product on the court. We were bringing back some key experienced pieces and were adding five new players that seemed like they could be strong contributors. So far the performance of the team as a whole has been somewhat disappointing from where I sit. The players have not hit their stride and blended into a cohesive unit yet. The defensive intensity that was a strength of last season's team is clearly lacking at this point. 

Today we lost our second matchup against Creighton. Last year our hopeful end of the year turnaround, from a weak 3-12 start in league play, began with a dominant win in our second matchup against Creighton on March 1st. While that was a home game towards the end of the season and today's loss was a road game much earlier in the year, the comparisons between the two games are stark.

That game was the absolute high point performance of last year's season (see box score link below). We shot the lights out of the gym then and made an incredible 14 for 22 from three. Greg Williams was on fire shooting 7 for 10 from beyond the arc. Rasheem Dunn had a terrific game with 19 points, 10 assists and 6 rebounds. Conversely, then #10, Creighton was an abysmal 4 for 27 from deep. The presence of now departed players Nick Rutherford and LJ Figueroa helped harass the Blue Jays into a bad shooting night.

Today we struggled to stop #7 Creighton defensively in the first half when they scored 56 points (an all tme Big East first half high for them) and other than a brilliant offensive game by Julian Champagnie (33 points 10 rebounds) and a decent one by Marcellus Earlington (13 points and 6 rebounds) we were not all that effective offensively (see box score link below). 

We could argue that Crieghton is a much better team this year than last year or that we caught them last year in a down cycle but our comparative end results today are disappointing no matter what the reasons.

The inability to guard well on the perimeter or protect the rim on the interior has been a characteristic of the 2020/21 St. John's team. Last year's group battled most games on the defensive end and most of our opponents felt pressure that was disruptive.

After only six conference games it is hard to say that we have absolutely regressed from last year (we were 1 and 5 both years) but it is difficult to point to definitive improvement either. The pandemic and the unusual nature of this year has a definite impact on everything. Hopefully over the next 14 conference games there will be growth and a team defensive identity will begin to emerge.

Coach Mike Anderson has had a way of getting players to grow over the course of the season. Players like Posh Alexander, Dylan Addae-Wusu, Greg Williams, Julian Moore, Rasheem Dunn, Marcellus Earlington and Vince Cole have all shown flashes of ability at times during the season this year and improvement and more consistency is definitely possible. Julian Champagnie seems to be the closest thing we have to a finished product that we can count on game in and game out.

Fourteen conference games are yet to be played. The story of this season is nowhere close to done yet but so far, unfortunately, the topic of regression is not a far fetched one.

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId[/URL]=401168337

[URL]https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId[/URL]=401269605

"Great post as always!"


 
 
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usguard" post=412056 said:
Problem ,coming into this season Champ was the most talented player,he has gotten better due to his talent.However,the others have not it can be blamed on coach and again he recruited these players.So just maybe they are doing the best they can therefore recruiting has to get to the point where we are getting better talent,and bringing players who can actually shoot  and rim protectors who can really stop drives and rebounds and block shots
To be honest ,SH games was terrible as is most of our games

CMA did not recruit Williams, Roberts , Caraher or Earlington. Can we at least wait until he has full roster of his own recruits before we crucify the guy. 
 
Ray Morgan" post=412121 said:
The team has not responded well to the departure of Figgy's overall presence, and Rutherford's energy on  defense and fearlessness on offense. His stats were not lofty, but I remember a number of games he had an impact on.  There is a lack of both leadership and spark this season.

While both J.C. players and the freshman have had their moments, they all lack consistency.  CMA's system works with the right plsyers and effort, but leads to blowouts when done poorly,  That is the case this season.  I see a team with a lack of urgency and lack of energy.  Not everyone, but enough to matter.  If a team doesn't shoot it well and doesn't have an inside game, they better defend extremely well and turn the game into a dogfight. I saw a lot more of that last season.

In the end,  the season we were hoping for was not in the stars. Literally.
agree. Last year, while our record was not great, we were disruptive on defense and made other teams uncomfortable, in most games. Not the case this year - so far. 
 
We have been waiting over a decade how long is enough
look I said,give the coach this season and next so how long do you want to wait mo this season and next is enough

 
 
usguard wrote: We have been waiting over a decade how long is enough
look I said,give the coach this season and next so how long do you want to wait mo this season and next is enough


Look, everyone is disappointed with this year's performance to date, but imho any new coach taking over a program as troubled as ours gets 4 years to turn things around. CMA is not responsible for how long we've been waiting for a winner. I will say that if we don't see a solid season next year (well over .500 overall), doubts will justifiably set in given how many upperclassmen we should have.  
 
usguard" post=412157 said:
We have been waiting over a decade how long is enough
look I said,give the coach this season and next so how long do you want to wait mo this season and next is enough



Well Moses spent what 40 years in the desert ? So we have a while to go

 
 
NCJohnnie" post=412158 said:
usguard wrote: We have been waiting over a decade how long is enough
look I said,give the coach this season and next so how long do you want to wait mo this season and next is enough


Look, everyone is disappointed with this year's performance to date, but imho any new coach taking over a program as troubled as ours gets 4 years to turn things around. CMA is not responsible for how long we've been waiting for a winner. I will say that if we don't see a solid season next year (well over .500 overall), doubts will justifiably set in given how many upperclassmen we should have.  

I think that's very fair. I know I'm down on the team and the staff, especially with regard to recruiting, but not all rebuilds are a straight line up. At this point, I hope we can salvage some of what's left of this season, but I'm expecting that we'll finish somewhere between 9th and 11th place. Next year CMA will have mostly his own kids on the roster, and I think at that point we should be able to move up to the middle of the Big East pack and make the NIT.  By next year we'll have a better indication of whether or not CMA can right this ship. We have no choice at this point but to wait and hope for this best. 

 
 
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Monte" post=412161 said:
NCJohnnie" post=412158 said:
usguard wrote: We have been waiting over a decade how long is enough
look I said,give the coach this season and next so how long do you want to wait mo this season and next is enough


Look, everyone is disappointed with this year's performance to date, but imho any new coach taking over a program as troubled as ours gets 4 years to turn things around. CMA is not responsible for how long we've been waiting for a winner. I will say that if we don't see a solid season next year (well over .500 overall), doubts will justifiably set in given how many upperclassmen we should have.  

I think that's very fair. I know I'm down on the team and the staff, especially with regard to recruiting, but not all rebuilds are a straight line up. At this point, I hope we can salvage some of what's left of this season, but I'm expecting that we'll finish somewhere between 9th and 11th place. Next year CMA will have mostly his own kids on the roster, and I think at that point we should be able to move up to the middle of the Big East pack and make the NIT.  By next year we'll have a better indication of whether or not CMA can right this ship. We have no choice at this point but to wait and hope for this best. 


 
Maybe it's just me, but with this free transfer rule coming up, the losing we've gone through, and the apparent lack of chemistry with the current roster, I'm pretty nervous about how many kids will bolt. 
 
Room112" post=412167 said:
Monte" post=412161 said:
NCJohnnie" post=412158 said:
usguard wrote: We have been waiting over a decade how long is enough
look I said,give the coach this season and next so how long do you want to wait mo this season and next is enough


Look, everyone is disappointed with this year's performance to date, but imho any new coach taking over a program as troubled as ours gets 4 years to turn things around. CMA is not responsible for how long we've been waiting for a winner. I will say that if we don't see a solid season next year (well over .500 overall), doubts will justifiably set in given how many upperclassmen we should have.  

I think that's very fair. I know I'm down on the team and the staff, especially with regard to recruiting, but not all rebuilds are a straight line up. At this point, I hope we can salvage some of what's left of this season, but I'm expecting that we'll finish somewhere between 9th and 11th place. Next year CMA will have mostly his own kids on the roster, and I think at that point we should be able to move up to the middle of the Big East pack and make the NIT.  By next year we'll have a better indication of whether or not CMA can right this ship. We have no choice at this point but to wait and hope for this best. 




 
Maybe it's just me, but with this free transfer rule coming up, the losing we've gone through, and the apparent lack of chemistry with the current roster, I'm pretty nervous about how many kids will bolt. 




Some of my friends think the rule is great and will help us I have the exact opposite feeling like you and I think this rule is going to make me like college basketball a lot less eventually

 
 
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Room112 wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but with this free transfer rule coming up, the losing we've gone through, and the apparent lack of chemistry with the current roster, I'm pretty nervous about how many kids will bolt. 

Agree that is possible Room112, but imho on the other hand being a good coach includes being able to recruit, develop and retain your guys; if your strong suit is developing talent can't use the fact that kids don't want to stay in the program as an excuse for not succeeding (obviously not talking about leaving for the pros here).  
 
Last edited:
Room112" post=412167 said:
Monte" post=412161 said:
NCJohnnie" post=412158 said:
usguard wrote: We have been waiting over a decade how long is enough
look I said,give the coach this season and next so how long do you want to wait mo this season and next is enough


Look, everyone is disappointed with this year's performance to date, but imho any new coach taking over a program as troubled as ours gets 4 years to turn things around. CMA is not responsible for how long we've been waiting for a winner. I will say that if we don't see a solid season next year (well over .500 overall), doubts will justifiably set in given how many upperclassmen we should have.  

I think that's very fair. I know I'm down on the team and the staff, especially with regard to recruiting, but not all rebuilds are a straight line up. At this point, I hope we can salvage some of what's left of this season, but I'm expecting that we'll finish somewhere between 9th and 11th place. Next year CMA will have mostly his own kids on the roster, and I think at that point we should be able to move up to the middle of the Big East pack and make the NIT.  By next year we'll have a better indication of whether or not CMA can right this ship. We have no choice at this point but to wait and hope for this best. 



 
Maybe it's just me, but with this free transfer rule coming up, the losing we've gone through, and the apparent lack of chemistry with the current roster, I'm pretty nervous about how many kids will bolt. 

Me too. Especially with this being the "instant gratification generation". 
 
 
Monte wrote:
Next year CMA will have mostly his own kids on the roster, and I think at that point we should be able to move up to the middle of the Big East pack and make the NIT. 

Completely agree.
 
Monte" post=412171 said:
Room112" post=412167 said:
Monte" post=412161 said:
NCJohnnie" post=412158 said:
usguard wrote: We have been waiting over a decade how long is enough
look I said,give the coach this season and next so how long do you want to wait mo this season and next is enough


Look, everyone is disappointed with this year's performance to date, but imho any new coach taking over a program as troubled as ours gets 4 years to turn things around. CMA is not responsible for how long we've been waiting for a winner. I will say that if we don't see a solid season next year (well over .500 overall), doubts will justifiably set in given how many upperclassmen we should have.  

I think that's very fair. I know I'm down on the team and the staff, especially with regard to recruiting, but not all rebuilds are a straight line up. At this point, I hope we can salvage some of what's left of this season, but I'm expecting that we'll finish somewhere between 9th and 11th place. Next year CMA will have mostly his own kids on the roster, and I think at that point we should be able to move up to the middle of the Big East pack and make the NIT.  By next year we'll have a better indication of whether or not CMA can right this ship. We have no choice at this point but to wait and hope for this best. 




 
Maybe it's just me, but with this free transfer rule coming up, the losing we've gone through, and the apparent lack of chemistry with the current roster, I'm pretty nervous about how many kids will bolt. 

Me too. Especially with this being the "instant gratification generation". 



I wasn't going to post again until the end of the season because Anything i post this year from here on, at 1-5 in the b.e. will be negative and I don't want to do that to cma, with the situation this year.

With that said, If Champ (our best leaves) leaves then I will officially be done with sju and coll basketball altogether.

Just hope it doesn't come to that point or it will kill coll bball.
 
 
I'm afraid that this new rule will just allow the rich to get richer. It's free agency every single year for players. This will not help us at all IMO. 
 
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