(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM

Finally watched the game this morning although I inadvertently saw the result about 10 PM last night. Really tough loss after battling back and getting the lead. Shouldn't lose games where you have a 5 point lead at Home with 3 minutes to go. Really hate to give up home losses.
Champ and Roberts scored early, then nothing. Really surprised given the way they have been playing.
The first charge on LJ was BS. But he has to be better over the course of a game avoiding fouls like that.
We always seem to be on the short end of foul calls. How did Butler only have 3 fouls in the 1st half? Unbelievable.
If we could just hit a few open shots now and then. Its amazing how year after year we don't have knock down shooters, but our opponents do!
Thought Sears' post defense in the 1st half was weak, and that Steer could lend some support. Have to say that Sears' play in the 2nd half was very good; knows his role.
What is up with Steere? How does he not get in a game in the 1st half when were down so much, just to mix things up? Maybe he keeps Nze off the boards a bit more than Sears.
10 points out of our starters? Ugh. Need Heron back Sunday.
We were at 14-14 at the 7 minutes mark of the 1st half when it all fell apart, very quickly.
In the game early without LJ. Why risk him at all in the 1st half?
Of course Baldwin finds his stroke against us. Tucker too in the 2nd half.
Just awful rebounding all game. Scary reminder of last year.
Great effort in the 2nd half!
Williams had a big night.
Turns out we didn't ultimately need LJ to win this game. Needed a few breaks or a few more shots to go in.
I don't like to justify losses. When you have a chance late to get one, you have to win, especially at home.
Happy New Year everyone.
 
[quote="Delaware" post=370314]Finally watched the game this morning although I inadvertently saw the result about 10 PM last night. Really tough loss after battling back and getting the lead. Shouldn't lose games where you have a 5 point lead at Home with 3 minutes to go. Really hate to give up home losses.
Champ and Roberts scored early, then nothing. Really surprised given the way they have been playing.
The first charge on LJ was BS. But he has to be better over the course of a game avoiding fouls like that.
We always seem to be on the short end of foul calls. How did Butler only have 3 fouls in the 1st half? Unbelievable.
If we could just hit a few open shots now and then. Its amazing how year after year we don't have knock down shooters, but our opponents do!
Thought Sears' post defense in the 1st half was weak, and that Steer could lend some support. Have to say that Sears' play in the 2nd half was very good; knows his role.
What is up with Steere? How does he not get in a game in the 1st half when were down so much, just to mix things up? Maybe he keeps Nze off the boards a bit more than Sears.
10 points out of our starters? Ugh. Need Heron back Sunday.
We were at 14-14 at the 7 minutes mark of the 1st half when it all fell apart, very quickly.
In the game early without LJ. Why risk him at all in the 1st half?
Of course Baldwin finds his stroke against us. Tucker too in the 2nd half.
Just awful rebounding all game. Scary reminder of last year.
Great effort in the 2nd half!
Williams had a big night.
Turns out we didn't ultimately need LJ to win this game. Needed a few breaks or a few more shots to go in.
I don't like to justify losses. When you have a chance late to get one, you have to win, especially at home.
Happy New Year everyone.[/quote]

Yes, it was a gutsy effort to come back from 23, but they had a 5pnt lead, you gotta finish the comeback.
Whatever cma said to them to get their butts in gear needs to be said before games because that really lit a fire under their asses. They need that intensity for 40minutes not 20, you can't go down 23 and expect to claw back and win.
 
Now visions of winning 4/games in BE could that be a possibity we just do not shoot the ball as well as the rest of the BE really like coach but recruiting players that are shooter is their job
 
[quote="SJU61982" post=370233][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370229][quote="SJU61982" post=370228][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370223][quote="Jnaw17" post=370217][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370216][quote="Jnaw17" post=370206][quote="SJU61982" post=370204][quote="SJU2000alum15" post=370197]I agree that Williams or Rutherford should have had the ball on that play.[/quote]

I am not giving Rutherford the ball there, under any circumstances. I know he did it against Arizona, but that was because we pushed it up the floor. His whole game is steals, and beating the defender down the court. In the set offense, he's a negative.

Had no problem with Dunn getting it there. He seems to want the ball late in the games (I love that attribute about him, but it's going to cost you sometimes), and has already come through twice for us this year. Dunn driving was the only option, and either go up with it, or kick out to LJ.[/quote]

Did you watch tonight’s game? He drove the ball in the half court several times. Butler couldn’t stay with him.[/quote]. Could not disagree more . Rutherford deserved the ball on the last possession , not Dunn. Even Williams in that spot .[/quote]

I was talking about Rutherford. He drove the ball successfully several times in the half court tonight. He was our best creator on offense.[/quote]. I agree with you , not the post that inexplicably trashed Rutherford , who was the best player on the Court for us tonight . Williams played well too .[/quote]

I wasn't trashing Rutherford, and I agree that he was our best player tonight. That's not even really up for debate.

I just don't believe that running the half court offense is his strength. Steals, and beating the defense down the court, are his strengths.

I don't know if we have a strength in the half court offense, TBH, but with Heron out, Dunn has been our best 1-on-1 player over the course of the year. I was one of those people who pushed aside the McGriff injury, but maybe he would have helped us there.[/quote]. Dunn is a one dimensional player that is exciting to watch but , he should never shoot the ball . He goes to the hoop strong but , can’t shoot a lick . And , he isn’t a Playmaker who makes his teammates better . But , he contributes when he plays his game . Not try to be a long range shooter .,[/quote]

Nobody on this team can shoot a lick. I think it's time that we, as a fanbase, come to grips with that. It's something we can't do, not something we're not doing. We could improve a little bit, but I've always felt that great shooters are born with that ability.

Dunn is more of a scoring guard, then a point (Larry Brown would hate him, but that just makes me like Dunn more), but until tonight, Rutherford was too much in the other direction, IMO. I dread him taking the outside shot, and feel that he's open for a reason. We were almost playing 4-on-5 offensively, while he was out there. Hopefully, tonight was a breakthrough, but I'm skeptical. [/quote]

I'm sorry but I could not disagree more with your viewpoint on shooters. Shooting ability is NOT something that you are just born with. If you ask any of the great shooters in the history of the game how they became great, they all are going to tell you the same thing: Practice and repetition. Chris Mullin didn't just wake up one day as a great shooter, or wasn't just born as a great shooter. He worked at it. Like many others, he was known to be a gym rat, and was always in the gym working on his game.

And as far as our team this year goes, unfortunately shooting is something that is typically developed/improved in the offseason, not during the season. So while we may be as good as we are going to be this year, that doesn't mean that the players cannot improve their shooting for future seasons.
 
[quote="Eric Williamson" post=370319][quote="SJU61982" post=370233][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370229][quote="SJU61982" post=370228][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370223][quote="Jnaw17" post=370217][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370216][quote="Jnaw17" post=370206][quote="SJU61982" post=370204][quote="SJU2000alum15" post=370197]I agree that Williams or Rutherford should have had the ball on that play.[/quote]

I am not giving Rutherford the ball there, under any circumstances. I know he did it against Arizona, but that was because we pushed it up the floor. His whole game is steals, and beating the defender down the court. In the set offense, he's a negative.

Had no problem with Dunn getting it there. He seems to want the ball late in the games (I love that attribute about him, but it's going to cost you sometimes), and has already come through twice for us this year. Dunn driving was the only option, and either go up with it, or kick out to LJ.[/quote]

Did you watch tonight’s game? He drove the ball in the half court several times. Butler couldn’t stay with him.[/quote]. Could not disagree more . Rutherford deserved the ball on the last possession , not Dunn. Even Williams in that spot .[/quote]

I was talking about Rutherford. He drove the ball successfully several times in the half court tonight. He was our best creator on offense.[/quote]. I agree with you , not the post that inexplicably trashed Rutherford , who was the best player on the Court for us tonight . Williams played well too .[/quote]

I wasn't trashing Rutherford, and I agree that he was our best player tonight. That's not even really up for debate.

I just don't believe that running the half court offense is his strength. Steals, and beating the defense down the court, are his strengths.

I don't know if we have a strength in the half court offense, TBH, but with Heron out, Dunn has been our best 1-on-1 player over the course of the year. I was one of those people who pushed aside the McGriff injury, but maybe he would have helped us there.[/quote]. Dunn is a one dimensional player that is exciting to watch but , he should never shoot the ball . He goes to the hoop strong but , can’t shoot a lick . And , he isn’t a Playmaker who makes his teammates better . But , he contributes when he plays his game . Not try to be a long range shooter .,[/quote]

Nobody on this team can shoot a lick. I think it's time that we, as a fanbase, come to grips with that. It's something we can't do, not something we're not doing. We could improve a little bit, but I've always felt that great shooters are born with that ability.

Dunn is more of a scoring guard, then a point (Larry Brown would hate him, but that just makes me like Dunn more), but until tonight, Rutherford was too much in the other direction, IMO. I dread him taking the outside shot, and feel that he's open for a reason. We were almost playing 4-on-5 offensively, while he was out there. Hopefully, tonight was a breakthrough, but I'm skeptical. [/quote]

I'm sorry but I could not disagree more with your viewpoint on shooters. Shooting ability is NOT something that you are just born with. If you ask any of the great shooters in the history of the game how they became great, they all are going to tell you the same thing: Practice and repetition. Chris Mullin didn't just wake up one day as a great shooter, or wasn't just born as a great shooter. He worked at it. Like many others, he was known to be a gym rat, and was always in the gym working on his game.

And as far as our team this year goes, unfortunately shooting is something that is typically developed/improved in the offseason, not during the season. So while we may be as good as we are going to be this year, that doesn't mean that the players cannot improve their shooting for future seasons.[/quote]

Point being Chris Mullin was a natural shooter before he came to sju.
 
If I had to pick one word to describe this team, I'd pick resilient. When we were down by 20+ points, this team fought their arses off to try to get back into the game. Previous teams probably would have lost by 30.

A few thoughts:

1. While I love LJ, I don't have a problem with not putting him back in. Coach was playing the hot hand - the group that got us back in the game. Sometimes a coach has to play his gut.
2. We need LJ on the court as much as possible, especially with Heron out. LJ fouls too much and often far away from the basket. He tends to reach rather than move his feet. This needs to get corrected ASAP. We need him to play as many minutes as possible.
3. Caraher and Dunn can hit treys when they just catch and shoot but neither can hit one off the dribble. They shouldn't take them until they develop the skill
4. I love Earlington's hustle and work inside but he can't shoot from the outside. The foul line should be his limit.
5. I want to see more of Williams. He can be a stat sheet filler (points, rebounds, assists, steals).

Overall, while disappointed with the loss, I was very pleased with the effort. We stood toe to toe with the 11th ranked team in the nation. If we continue to play with this level of intensity and effort, we'll be fine.

Happy New Year to all and to all, a good night.
 
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The play that sums up Dunn happened earlier in the second half, he had the ball on the break, three on one, the defender focused solely on him, should have been an pass across for an easy two but he took it himself. He scored the basket, but it was the 100% the wrong play.
 
Best thing about the game last night was the comeback happened without LJ and Heron. Bodes well for the rest of the season.
 
[quote="Eric Williamson" post=370319][quote="SJU61982" post=370233][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370229][quote="SJU61982" post=370228][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370223][quote="Jnaw17" post=370217][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370216][quote="Jnaw17" post=370206][quote="SJU61982" post=370204][quote="SJU2000alum15" post=370197]I agree that Williams or Rutherford should have had the ball on that play.[/quote]

I am not giving Rutherford the ball there, under any circumstances. I know he did it against Arizona, but that was because we pushed it up the floor. His whole game is steals, and beating the defender down the court. In the set offense, he's a negative.

Had no problem with Dunn getting it there. He seems to want the ball late in the games (I love that attribute about him, but it's going to cost you sometimes), and has already come through twice for us this year. Dunn driving was the only option, and either go up with it, or kick out to LJ.[/quote]

Did you watch tonight’s game? He drove the ball in the half court several times. Butler couldn’t stay with him.[/quote]. Could not disagree more . Rutherford deserved the ball on the last possession , not Dunn. Even Williams in that spot .[/quote]

I was talking about Rutherford. He drove the ball successfully several times in the half court tonight. He was our best creator on offense.[/quote]. I agree with you , not the post that inexplicably trashed Rutherford , who was the best player on the Court for us tonight . Williams played well too .[/quote]

I wasn't trashing Rutherford, and I agree that he was our best player tonight. That's not even really up for debate.

I just don't believe that running the half court offense is his strength. Steals, and beating the defense down the court, are his strengths.

I don't know if we have a strength in the half court offense, TBH, but with Heron out, Dunn has been our best 1-on-1 player over the course of the year. I was one of those people who pushed aside the McGriff injury, but maybe he would have helped us there.[/quote]. Dunn is a one dimensional player that is exciting to watch but , he should never shoot the ball . He goes to the hoop strong but , can’t shoot a lick . And , he isn’t a Playmaker who makes his teammates better . But , he contributes when he plays his game . Not try to be a long range shooter .,[/quote]

Nobody on this team can shoot a lick. I think it's time that we, as a fanbase, come to grips with that. It's something we can't do, not something we're not doing. We could improve a little bit, but I've always felt that great shooters are born with that ability.

Dunn is more of a scoring guard, then a point (Larry Brown would hate him, but that just makes me like Dunn more), but until tonight, Rutherford was too much in the other direction, IMO. I dread him taking the outside shot, and feel that he's open for a reason. We were almost playing 4-on-5 offensively, while he was out there. Hopefully, tonight was a breakthrough, but I'm skeptical. [/quote]

I'm sorry but I could not disagree more with your viewpoint on shooters. Shooting ability is NOT something that you are just born with. If you ask any of the great shooters in the history of the game how they became great, they all are going to tell you the same thing: Practice and repetition. Chris Mullin didn't just wake up one day as a great shooter, or wasn't just born as a great shooter. He worked at it. Like many others, he was known to be a gym rat, and was always in the gym working on his game.

And as far as our team this year goes, unfortunately shooting is something that is typically developed/improved in the offseason, not during the season. So while we may be as good as we are going to be this year, that doesn't mean that the players cannot improve their shooting for future seasons.[/quote]

Agree to disagree on this one. Mullin, thorough hard work, went from a very good shooter (which is what he started as) to a great one. I don't think you can go from terrible to great, regardless of the work you put in. With hard work, our terrible outside shooters can become adequate, but that's about the ceiling.
 
[quote="SJU61982" post=370324][quote="Eric Williamson" post=370319][quote="SJU61982" post=370233][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370229][quote="SJU61982" post=370228][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370223][quote="Jnaw17" post=370217][quote="SLYFOXX1968" post=370216][quote="Jnaw17" post=370206][quote="SJU61982" post=370204][quote="SJU2000alum15" post=370197]I agree that Williams or Rutherford should have had the ball on that play.[/quote]

I am not giving Rutherford the ball there, under any circumstances. I know he did it against Arizona, but that was because we pushed it up the floor. His whole game is steals, and beating the defender down the court. In the set offense, he's a negative.

Had no problem with Dunn getting it there. He seems to want the ball late in the games (I love that attribute about him, but it's going to cost you sometimes), and has already come through twice for us this year. Dunn driving was the only option, and either go up with it, or kick out to LJ.[/quote]

Did you watch tonight’s game? He drove the ball in the half court several times. Butler couldn’t stay with him.[/quote]. Could not disagree more . Rutherford deserved the ball on the last possession , not Dunn. Even Williams in that spot .[/quote]

I was talking about Rutherford. He drove the ball successfully several times in the half court tonight. He was our best creator on offense.[/quote]. I agree with you , not the post that inexplicably trashed Rutherford , who was the best player on the Court for us tonight . Williams played well too .[/quote]

I wasn't trashing Rutherford, and I agree that he was our best player tonight. That's not even really up for debate.

I just don't believe that running the half court offense is his strength. Steals, and beating the defense down the court, are his strengths.

I don't know if we have a strength in the half court offense, TBH, but with Heron out, Dunn has been our best 1-on-1 player over the course of the year. I was one of those people who pushed aside the McGriff injury, but maybe he would have helped us there.[/quote]. Dunn is a one dimensional player that is exciting to watch but , he should never shoot the ball . He goes to the hoop strong but , can’t shoot a lick . And , he isn’t a Playmaker who makes his teammates better . But , he contributes when he plays his game . Not try to be a long range shooter .,[/quote]

Nobody on this team can shoot a lick. I think it's time that we, as a fanbase, come to grips with that. It's something we can't do, not something we're not doing. We could improve a little bit, but I've always felt that great shooters are born with that ability.

Dunn is more of a scoring guard, then a point (Larry Brown would hate him, but that just makes me like Dunn more), but until tonight, Rutherford was too much in the other direction, IMO. I dread him taking the outside shot, and feel that he's open for a reason. We were almost playing 4-on-5 offensively, while he was out there. Hopefully, tonight was a breakthrough, but I'm skeptical. [/quote]

I'm sorry but I could not disagree more with your viewpoint on shooters. Shooting ability is NOT something that you are just born with. If you ask any of the great shooters in the history of the game how they became great, they all are going to tell you the same thing: Practice and repetition. Chris Mullin didn't just wake up one day as a great shooter, or wasn't just born as a great shooter. He worked at it. Like many others, he was known to be a gym rat, and was always in the gym working on his game.

And as far as our team this year goes, unfortunately shooting is something that is typically developed/improved in the offseason, not during the season. So while we may be as good as we are going to be this year, that doesn't mean that the players cannot improve their shooting for future seasons.[/quote]

Agree to disagree on this one. Mullin, thorough hard work, went from a very good shooter (which is what he started as) to a great one. I don't think you can go from terrible to great, regardless of the work you put in. With hard work, our terrible outside shooters can become adequate, but that's about the ceiling.[/quote]

Dr J a prime example of someone who was a terrible outside shooter ( when he got to the pros with the Virginia Squires) and made himself in to an adequate/good outside shooter through hard work. In fairness to him, prior to becoming a pro he didn’t need to have an outside shot, since he was so unstoppable in every other aspect of his offensive game.
 
Although the rebounding has been stronger on the offensive side against other teams the overall rebounding disparity needs context. There are no rebounds to be had if you steal the ball first.
 
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Proud of the second half comeback and effort on defense. need to take smarter shots. I'd say the rest of the BE will be on notice and afraid of our pressing D. Hopefully, against competition lesser than Butler we will do well.
 
[quote="Section9" post=370266][quote="Paultzman" post=370196][quote="Logen" post=370193]After we squandered leads in previous games, many, including myself, talked about basketball being a game of runs and it is. So we had a tremendous 2nd half run, got a lead late and then couldn’t close it out. It’s about W’s and L’s and in my opinion there are no moral victories and that was a bad loss. Another example of us not knowing how to play with a lead. And I may be harsh but Dunn backing that ball out was a “me” play and I just don’t see it.[/quote]

Great point on Dunn play, inexplicable.[/quote]

Yeah, I get that but that's an NYC pg mentality. He wants the ball in the end. Seems we forgot what he did against wvu at the end. You've got to live with it, good or bad until this team has more offensive talent.[/quote]

I did not comment on him having the ball, I commented on what he did with it. Having said that, In
don’t buy that “NYC guard” or having to live with poor decisions in the end game for a second. Just because someone wants the ball doesn’t mean they should have it. He made a good play against WVU but one play does not give him a free pass to do whatever he wants at the end of games. He scores because he is a volume shooter not because he is anything other than an average offensive player. Frankly and unfortunately, we have a team of them, including, up to now, Heron and Figueroa.
One last point, no way in hell did we lose that game because of the last play. I just thought he made a very poor decision and pointed it out.
 
[quote="IDRAFT" post=370329]Although the rebounding has been stronger on the offensive side against other teams the overall rebounding disparity needs context. There are no rebounds to be had if you steal the ball first.[/quote]

Not sure what you meant, there were 69 rebounds available on FG attempts.
 
I was just texting with a friend who roots for Marquette about our game last night and he made a point that I found extremely encouraging. He said that he's noticed that when teams are going through a rebuild/new coach, fan bases are generally optimistic initially (not everyone of course but most are hopeful) and tend to react one of two ways once the season starts. Either:

A) They sound like they're trying to convince whoever they're talking to that things are going well. My friend pointed out that it almost seems like they're trying to sell you a used car. "Well when he gets his guys in there..." or "We have a bad record but we're not getting blown out" " etc. Fans will cherry pick stats that show the coach is making progress and ignore stats that don't back it up, etc.

or

B )The fans are clearly excited and just tell you what is happening. "You should watch a game. It's been really fun so far." "They're rebounding like monsters." etc. When a new coach is clearly doing well the fans trust that if people watch the team the progress will be obvious. These fan's tone just has a ring of truthfulness to it because they're genuinely proud of the way the team is performing and want others to see. Nobody is trying to sell anyone. Just to even up the comparison we agreed it's like the car salesmen who confidently says, "Just take it for a test drive and see what you think."

He then said he felt like St. John's has been in the first category for a long time now and suddenly something has changed with Anderson and we're clearly in the latter. Something about his assessment felt true to me.
 
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[quote="Knight" post=370335][quote="IDRAFT" post=370329]Although the rebounding has been stronger on the offensive side against other teams the overall rebounding disparity needs context. There are no rebounds to be had if you steal the ball first.[/quote]

Not sure what you meant, there were 69 rebounds available on FG attempts.[/quote]

SJU attempted six more shots than Butler. As folks point out Butler outrebounded SJU. Take a look at another statistic, turnovers. I would be fine if SJU had zero defensive rebounds a game if the other team never gets a shot off. If you have a huge advantage in turnovers and also shoot at a lower percentage than the other team those are factors that effect rebounding disparity. Not defending the rebounding effort, just pointing out that the numbers need full context or they are misleading.
 
MA has had the team playing hard all season but last night the effort put out by Rutherford, Williams , Dunn and Earlington was extroidinary.
 
Normally in recent years, this would really tick me off for a good day or two losing a game that was ours to take late. But putting it in perspective this is year 1 of CMA. We have mostly 2-3 star players who got passed on by mostly everyone. We have 2 players who were courted seriously by big name programs: LJ and Heron our best players and the only we assumed were Big East ready. LJ was essentially out all game because of fouls. Heron was out still recovering. So our 2-3 star guys without our 2 best players by far, came within a 3 of making a KO of a top 10 Butler team after being blown out early. Folks, that's coaching. We weren't going to win every game and I knew it wasn't realistic to expect this W in what was originally a rebuilding year. The fact that we fought right back to make them panic in the closing minutes shows what we have. We have REAL coaching and we have HUNGRY players who are not afraid of being blue collar. We aren't going to have any NPOY candidates, but as a team we are not an easy out for almost anyone. I hope we win 6-9+ Big East games and I really hope recruits are taking notice of this in year 1. CMA is doing with this team what we expected Mullin and Lavin to do with totally loaded rosters...in a rebuild.

Something just tells me CMA is different. Cragg is different. The culture is different. We may finally had a coach who will be around for 10 years. We may not be mom and pop anymore with Cragg. Having fun embracing this.
 
But to be a great shooter first you have to be given that gift.that said a great shooter can become great because he had the gift to start with.so a not so good shooter thru hrs of shots everyday possibly can become a good shooter but never great
I don’t what the heck I said Maybe it makes sense to some or perhaps I am the only one lol
 
[quote="usguard" post=370344]But to be a great shooter first you have to be given that gift.that said a great shooter can become great because he had the gift to start with.so a not so good shooter thru hrs of shots everyday possibly can become a good shooter but never great
I don’t what the heck I said Maybe it makes sense to some or perhaps I am the only one lol[/quote]


True...look at Pacshall. Went from zero shot to a huge 3 PT threat due to development. I think Champ can become a legit shooter and maybe Dunn, but we get into a lot of trouble when we can only make like 18% or less from 3 most games. That's really bad. We need a Mussini or Jordan Tucker type guy to be able to step in and nail them regularly. I'm hopeful CMA will find some. I also hope the results thus far will lead to at least one or two 4 star recruits committing to us. The hardest part is starting the trend. Once you get a few good recruiting classes, other high recruits seem to follow suit.
 
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